Has anyone else's Local Hobby Shop gone out of business lately?

[railroadyoshi]

Mine almost did
A long period 10 or 20% sale saved it
Not sure then if I would have missed that shop, the owner was a bit suspicious of young people and adolecesnts like me (though i still liked the owner, and his shop had great selection, i guess i would have missed it
Recent change of ownership has changed the view on youngsters
Perhaps in a couple of years I will work there after school
Anyone who knows the Acton Model Railroad Center in West Acton, Mass will know what im talking about

[roadrat]

Mainecentral229 you need to get to Maine model works on RT 1 it's all trains all the time no R/C no airplanes just TRAINS and more TRAINS...

I live in Lewiston and thats were I go, Its a bit of a ride but worth it.

bill

[Anonymous]

The hobby is not what it was thirty years ago, but in some ways, it is better. Look at the models that have come out in the past two years!!

I believe many small shops will go away when the owner retires since the money that is being made does not justify one of us buying it and keeping it open.

Some of the larger shops will be around, but it is not a high profit business and the owner must stock up on each limited item and hold it if he wants models to sell.

Most of the shops I visit have no sound models or the more expensive trains to sell except for the consignment sales. They simply cannot afford to have them on display for us to look at and then buy from ebay or the internet hobby shop.
We have all contributed to this problem by buying from wholesalers and now Ebay or the internet. I know we have saved money by doing this, but the local shop is important to this hobby to generate interest for new people in the hobby.

Look at General Motors, many Americans buy imports and now, GM is in trouble too!!

Don't expect you local hobby shop to stay open for conversation, he has to make a living to stay open.

[Anonymous]

Hey mainecentral229. please contact me off list. I am also a MEC modeler.


Josh ([e-mail])

[Anonymous]

average 65?? not likely.....but yes we are aging.....so is the population at large, so of course our average age is going up too.....right now more dollars.(real dollars) are being spent than ever before on model railroading......death is obviously NOT imminent!
The times change...the hobby will last each of us at least til the end............next generation or so? a decline does seem likely. Fewer hobby storews will survive...as will fere Jewelery stores, Watch repair shops etc..the economy is switching to internet bit by bit ...it has its advantages, such as price and selection, but it has a downside as well. The buggy whip industry got a huge shock when Henry Ford introduce cheap autos, much the same is happening to retail outlets......im sure they will never totally cease to exist, but there will be less of them........it is what it is.......deal with it

[railroadyoshi]

Aging is happening everywhere, not just in terms of hobbies but in general life
"The People Paradox: World in the balance" program on PBS gives a thorough explanation of that

[Anonymous]

Recently, House of Hobbies went out of business in Holland, Michigan. It was a nice store that had a lot of trains of all scales. The reason why it went under was because the prices were way too high.

I will miss looking around that shop.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FiremanLA
.....right now more dollars.(real dollars) are being spent than ever before on model railroading......death is obviously NOT imminent!

And on what published figures do you base that statement?

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

Bangertl has a pretty good handle on the situatiion

"Most of the shops I visit have no sound models or the more expensive trains to sell except for the consignment sales. They simply cannot afford to have them on display for us to look at and then buy from ebay or the internet hobby shop"

We consumers are going to get exactly what we want and it won't be available at a local hobby shop. One of the important points missed by most model railroad buyers is that hobby shops are retail businesses, not display warehouses for the internet. You pay full retail for your haircuts, your hamburgers, and your coffee, ....why not for hobby products?

Store owners can sell pretty much anything they want as long as it is legal and profitable. How do we intice someone to sell the products we want? We don't do that but telling him to lower his prices and profit margins. He may decide to sell ice cream cones instead of hobby products. Have you ever heard of ice cream shop patrons threatening to buy ice cream cones over the internet?

When a hobby shop owner realizes that he or she can make a better living working for wages, that's when another hobby shop will disappear. We are hurting ourselves when we encourage store owners to find better ways to make a living. Breaking even, or even surviving, is not enough these folks. They should be able to generate the same buying power and disposable income that we enjoy. If we don't stop beating them over the head by bragging about the great discount prices we are getting over the internet, then we are encouraging them to throw in the towel. They will be thinking about our attitudes when they are contemplating their balance sheets/income statements.

[Anonymous]

I live up in Central New York and the nearest shop of any quality to me is almost 40 miles away in Syracuse, which on a good day, with no construction on the highway is a 35 minute ride. We used to have one here in town, but the owners decided to switch and cater to minature dollhouses instead of trains like they used to do. There are a couple of "hole in the wall" shops between here and Syracuse, but the quality and quantity of supplies are not satisfactory and extremely overpriced. I always wanted to own my own Hobby store that catered to model railroaders. Maybe now would be a good time to open one up here in my neck of the woods, because there are a ton of people around my parts that are into model railroading, ranging in all ages and sexes, and all of them that I know complain about the fact we have no decent supply shop here.

[Anonymous]

We lost are LHS in Rochester, Minn. early this spring. Real shame, more than just a store. I bought everything I could from the store. Only specialty items I had to order from dealers that carried Bowser or PWRS. Places like Walthers can't guarantee that if you order six cars that you will get six different road numbers. Looking for new LHS in northern Iowa or southern Minnesota that still carries full line and accesories for HO.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainluver1

I agree with MisterBeasley. The internet is one of the things that's killed the business of hobby shops, that and computer games which kids find a lot more interesting than hobbies such as model railroading I'm sad to say.
I have to admit, I can sit right here with my bank card and order almost anything I want without having to leave the house, and I like that very much. Besides, most hobby shops have raised their prices to make up for their loses, so I come out better by buying off ebay or from on-line train shops.
It's just a change of the times...

trainluver1

Very Very true, plus u dont have to deal with annoying people. [^] But this is soo true. you figure the average mark up at a hobby store is at least 35/40percent. I know only being 16 and wanting to be a web designer the web is an awesome place espically when ur looking at trains, but if i had 100 dollars i would rather get a nice kato rs1 off ebay for 50 than pay 150 at my LHS, granted better service when purchased there, but hey, whos not up for saving some money, and gas!
an unfortunately, i really wouldnt mind seeing one of my hobby shops go. they dont even carry N Scale!

[Anonymous]

IF YOUR LHS DIDNT CARRY YOU SCALE, WOULD U GO TO IT!
:{ i can agreee here, hobby shops are over priced. charging almost 45 to 50 % markups. Plus the people at my LHS, arent even awake half the time. I would say the knowledge just isnt there anymore, you ask someone a question and the reply is, well im in HO i have no clue about N. (well what are u doing working here) or you call up and ask for the manager, and they reply hes never here!

lol, the wonderful world of people!@!!!!!!!!

[rlandry6]

I live in a large city with 3 hobby shops withing 10 minutes from home. Each approaches the market like they have the only game in town and that there is no where to shop beyond the city limits. I frequent one of them on a regular basis to purchase magazines and small items for projects, and an occasional piece of rolling stock in order to maintain my status as a good customer. Economics taken into account, I buy there when it's reasonable, but when there is a $50-100 difference between them and an online dealer on a loco, personal money management kicks in and I shp on price. There are some reputable online sellers with excellent prices, and if that makes my hard earned dollar go farther, then so be it..

[Anonymous]

ill get back to you but its not even arguable on "'published data"...tsk..tsk...the plethora of products is its own obvious answer........manufacturers follow the money.......more manufacturers+more products=a much bigger market......im surprised one would have to prove something so de facto evident.../...once again, more manufacturers+more products=biggermarket.......if the dollars werent there the manufacturers would be building widgets....as near as i can tell they are elbowing their way past each other to deliver new product.....

[Anonymous]

another example just came to me...............count how many new 's' scale products appear each month, or 'tt' scale..............................very few in comparison to HO.........why?...because the market is much smaller......the buyer ALWAYS controls the market, (especially a discretionary market) because he holds the dollars...........its called voting with your dollars..(economics 101)

[BigOzzy86]

Some hobby shops need to go out of business........... there is one in Wyandotte Michigan (off of Eureka) that specializes in model trains. However the owner, or employee specializes in B.S. with other old farts instead of attending to customers. I have been in there three times this summer.... obviously to look... since they have never even come to me and asked what my interests are. The person in charge has never even said anything to me. (Never more than one other person in the store each time I have been there). I hear them talking about the old times as I walk around and look at their stock. Once in awhile I pick up an item and look in the direction of the owner or employee hoping for them to ask me something like.... hey would you like to buy that.... are you interested in HO scale...... have you ever tried this...... do you have your own layout....... have you seen the new Kato or Atlas Engines... To make a long story short.. I have had more conversation with the greeter at Wal -Mart... (I hate Wal-Mart). Hobby shops that dont promote the hobby or get my attention can slowly fade away as far as Im concerned.
I have never had any trouble in the north suburbs in fact the one in Redford wont leave me alone... the employees are cool and openly tell me that they will get me anything in the Walthers Catalog and save me 10% on the item if they dont have it in stock. Obviously why not give them my business instead of the other mopes..... Just my observation but I think that some hobby shops have to close as soon as their friends die off and they cant re-coop and talk to new customers.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FiremanLA

ill get back to you but its not even arguable on "'published data"...tsk..tsk...the plethora of products is its own obvious answer........manufacturers follow the money.......more manufacturers+more products=a much bigger market......im surprised one would have to prove something so de facto evident.../...once again, more manufacturers+more products=biggermarket.......if the dollars werent there the manufacturers would be building widgets....as near as i can tell they are elbowing their way past each other to deliver new product.....

Fireman, I think you need to step back and look at the actual situation more honestly. Your statement that manufacturers are elbowing their way past each other to deliever new products and that this is an era of "bigmarket " (profits) for the hobby are well off the mark.

If you examine the current listing of manufacturers in the 2005 and past Walthers, you'll find that there hasn't been a new major player entering the hobby in more years than I care to count - hardly a sign of hobby prosperity. You statement that "manufacturers follow the money" is correct...and no important new ones are entering model railroading! In fact, even the secondstring companies haven't changed very much in the past decade (although a number of longtime examples have dropped out). It would appear that the actual view of things is that start-up costs are too great and the hobby's future far too iffy for anyone fre***o enter the marketplace in a big way today. Another sign of a lack of great prosperity in the hobby is that a number of the existing companies had to change their ways or face going out of business because the hobby's economic realities were in decline, not expansion. Look at Atlas and Life-Like. For years they were among the high volume suppliers of cheap department store trains. As that market vanished both changed to supplying serious modelers with small numbers of quality locomotives. Model Power was in the same boat but didn't alter direction enough (they did take a stab at it) and they now a very minor player in the hobby.

While it is true we are seeing more new products per year, almost all of these are done in ever diminishing limited production runs and when the item is gone in a couple of months, it's pretty much gone. In the past their profits allowed most companies to have large, stabile, product lines such that the hobbyist could purchase any item at any time. Today, at any given time there are probably LESS items in actual numbers available across the hobby then previously, not more. While prices have gone up, the number units available has gone down dramatically, so we are hardly looking at an era of the "bigmarket" in the hobby.

Relating this more to the thread's original subjectline, we all wi***he hobby was growing and expanding. Unfortunately, the dramatic, steady, decline of hobby shops tells quite a different story. Yes, the Internet has certainly cut deeply into their market but their decline reflects much more than that. I can not image that In the future many people will be introduced to our hobby strictly via the Internet. Hobby shops were always the means of exposing new people to model railroading and it kept our hobby thriving for many decades. I'm very much afraid that when the LHS finally vanishes completely, it will seal the hobby's fate as well.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

>>CNR is correct in his analysis. The shop of 20 years I worked for part-time, Como Shops, closed and went to the web. Causes were not being able to get a decent lease at a decent price and we heavily discounted, also.

In another 5 years, most small towns will have no hobby shops when I remember that even towns of 6-10,000 had at least one shop in town and towns of 50,000 would have 2 or 3 shops.

The hobby is dying pure and simple along with scratchbuilding and kitbuilding. it will be dead in less than ten years.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>snippet

Relating this more to the thread's original subjectline, we all wi***he hobby was growing and expanding. Unfortunately, the dramatic, steady, decline of hobby shops tells quite a different story. Yes, the Internet has certainly cut deeply into their market but their decline reflects much more than that. I can not image that In the future many people will be introduced to our hobby strictly via the Internet. Hobby shops were always the means of exposing new people to model railroading and it kept our hobby thriving for many decades. I'm very much afraid that when the LHS finally vanishes completely, it will seal the hobby's fate as well.

CNJ831

[MisterBeasley]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngbrat
[brThe hobby is dying pure and simple along with scratchbuilding and kitbuilding. it will be dead in less than ten years.

CNJ831

I agree with most of the points made in this topic, but I'm more optimistic about this one. There are some positive demographics going on here. The Baby Boomers, myself included, will start hitting retirement age in the next 10 years, and since we are the big bump in the Model Railroading population, that will mean a lot of people with time on their hands. At the same time, the generation after us will hit the empty-nest, discretionary income stage, and hopefully this will add some more population and dollars to the hobby.

[Anonymous]

the decline of hobby shops is little proof of overall market size.....I lament the loss of hobby shops for different reasons...but not as a sign of economic decline ..as for the 'balkanization' of the market.............thats true in every marketplace.....thats why we have eight million coffee choices......anyhow i was just trying to stir the waters and what every one thought........im losing no sleep over this..........I actually agree with a lot of the 'decline' forecasts for the reasons stated by those posting..........i dont see any easy answer either.....people dont play "mumbledy peg" much these days either....there will always be a creation/ building /collecting urge among us, but it may not be train oreinted in the future.......perhaps train appreciatin will be left to a shrinking older guard, til we are all gone..............In the mean time, Im off to the work bench...btw, 10 years seems a little soon...many boomers are approaching the first part of retirement when many have disposable income and are willing to part with it. Demographics show that as we approach seventy and beyond spending declines greatly......(most of us will be trying to get RID of stuff by then, not accumulate)

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MisterBeasley

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngbrat
[brThe hobby is dying pure and simple along with scratchbuilding and kitbuilding. it will be dead in less than ten years.

originally posted by ngbrat, not CNJ831

I agree with most of the points made in this topic, but I'm more optimistic about this one. There are some positive demographics going on here. The Baby Boomers, myself included, will start hitting retirement age in the next 10 years, and since we are the big bump in the Model Railroading population, that will mean a lot of people with time on their hands. At the same time, the generation after us will hit the empty-nest, discretionary income stage, and hopefully this will add some more population and dollars to the hobby.

Unfortunately, the Baby Boomer peak interest in the hobby already seems to be behind us, having occurred in the 1990's if you accept hobby magazine circulation figures and other indicators. Remember that model trains were not a big thing in most homes after 1959-1960 (it was slot cars then) so only the early Boomers are likely to have retained an interest in model trains via playing with Lionel and Flyer as kids. Since, over the past two or three decades, the adult re-awakening of interest in model trains seems to appear in an individual when in their mid 30's to mid 40's, being currently past peak makes sense for Boomers. Most of us are also now working beyond the traditional retirement age of 65 anyway, suggesting that there probably won't be much, if any, further significant influx of Boomers into the hobby. Sadly, the generation following the Boomers has very little interest in model railroading if you consult the hobby's demographics.

Odds are that the best the hobby is going to get in your lifetime is what you see right now. So make the best of it!

CNJ831

[fmilhaupt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigOzzy86

Some hobby shops need to go out of business........... there is one in Wyandotte Michigan (off of Eureka) that specializes in model trains. However the owner, or employee specializes in B.S. with other old farts instead of attending to customers. I have been in there three times this summer.... obviously to look... since they have never even come to me and asked what my interests are. The person in charge has never even said anything to me. (Never more than one other person in the store each time I have been there). I hear them talking about the old times as I walk around and look at their stock. Once in awhile I pick up an item and look in the direction of the owner or employee hoping for them to ask me something like.... hey would you like to buy that.... are you interested in HO scale...... have you ever tried this...... do you have your own layout....... have you seen the new Kato or Atlas Engines... To make a long story short.. I have had more conversation with the greeter at Wal -Mart... (I hate Wal-Mart). Hobby shops that dont promote the hobby or get my attention can slowly fade away as far as Im concerned.
I have never had any trouble in the north suburbs in fact the one in Redford wont leave me alone... the employees are cool and openly tell me that they will get me anything in the Walthers Catalog and save me 10% on the item if they dont have it in stock. Obviously why not give them my business instead of the other mopes..... Just my observation but I think that some hobby shops have to close as soon as their friends die off and they cant re-coop and talk to new customers.

Yeah, I had the same experience both times I went into that place on Eureka, and now I don't bother heading down there. Then there's Rider's on North Line in Taylor, that has nice enough people, but doesn't seem to have much idea how to stock a train department.

I've often wondered what the deal is with the lack of a decent train-stocking hobby shop south of Ford Road in Metro Detroit. Model railroading has very little visible retail presence in the south half and downriver parts of Metro Detroit, though I know that there are quite a few guys with layouts down there, and a good deal of less expensive retail space available.

---

-Fritz Milhaupt
Producer of Michigan prototype decals
http://www.wyomingyard.com/decals

[MAbruce]

I have not seen any hobby shops in my area die. Once changed hands and got a little better as a result. Now in five years it can all be different. I know of one major N-scale shop that will likely close because the owner is getting up there in age. Another could be close on its heals for the same reason.

I also agree that the internet has had some effect, and it will only continue to grow. So maybe we need to change our concept of the LHS? Are the internet shops the LHS's of the future?

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngbrat
In another 5 years, most small towns will have no hobby shops when I remember that even towns of 6-10,000 had at least one shop in town and towns of 50,000 would have 2 or 3 shops.

If one wishes to see some really startling figures, be advised that during the mid 1950's MR occasionally ran a full listing of the hobby shops around the county. I recall that, by example, New York City and Chicago both had well in excess of 110 hobby shops each! Other major cities had somewhat similar numbers.

My, how times have changed!

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MAbruce

I have not seen any hobby shops in my area die. Once changed hands and got a little better as a result. Now in five years it can all be different. I know of one major N-scale shop that will likely close because the owner is getting up there in age. Another could be close on its heals for the same reason.

I also agree that the internet has had some effect, and it will only continue to grow. So maybe we need to change our concept of the LHS? Are the internet shops the LHS's of the future?

I hope not because most of us like to look at different models to see how the state of the art is changing, even if that model is out of our era. I agree the LHS in many cases is not what it used to be and will probably go out of business when the present owner goes away or retires. That is sad in itself, but it does indicate where the hobby is going.

If all of the LHS were out of business today, the distributers would also be gone in a short time and the manufacturers would not import anything to store in their own warehouses. This whole business depends on all concerned to give us the product that we buy.

All of our hobby depends on most of the players, including us the buyers. This might be the reason, besides greed, that Horizon along with Walthers offers their models to storefronts only and not the bargain basement stores.

You can't fault a shop for charging list price and not discounting the few hot items that they can make half a living on. I was truely shocked when I ordered my tinted glass sheet for my pasenger cars, and paid $15 dollars for one sheet. that would only outfit about six or seven cars.

[Anonymous]

I am worried that if all of the hobby shops go away, I won't be able to buy small items when I need them. I don't look forward to ordering one pack of rail joiners over he internet, especially when I need them today.

Where will we get the little items when the hobby shops are gone?

[Berk-fan284]

Hello from the "GREAT WHITE NORTH" in this neck of the woods (Edm,AB), it seems as if only 6 LHS's (maximum) that cater to model railroading can last for any length of time with at least one of them going belly up every 6-10 years to be replaced 3-5years later. I buy all my new engines and rolling stock locally, but buy my used brass off of the internet because it is too expensive locally, to be fair though the local shops can't afford to have much, if any brass in stock. Also as noted in another posting when I am at the LHS or the swap-meet I am among the "yougnster(s)" in the crowd (I am 40) , so age and internet use plus other activities are thinning the herd somewhat.

[Anonymous]

Hmmm, - lots of interesting theories to ponder. . .

I've been into scale models & model RRing since the sixties when I was in my single digits. Yes, many things have changed. I don't want to be so pessimistic to say that the hobby is dying. If the hobby truly is dying, it sure is a sloooooow death.

I still see new products coming out regularly. Perhaps not as frequently as in times gone by. We've got DCC now, many nicely detailed locos and rolling stock. Lots more choices since the Tyco/Mantua days IMHO.

As far as the the original subject goes - I wouldn't mind runing a LHS (when I get tired of the daily drudge). However, I don't think it would be a savvy idea. Face it, the people that frequent the forums are pretty particular and I think it would be hard to run a LHS that would please everyone. How many times have we gone to the LHS (or any other store for that matter) and have heard the line "sorry, we don't have it in stock - but we can order it for you" - to which we have replied (outwardly or to ourselves) "well, so can I".

As far as the hobby in general. . . It's alive and growing with me. As long as I'm clicking that little button that says "Send error report" or rebooting after an umtpeenth BSOD, I'll glady crawl into the garage and work on a project that requires little more than wood, a sharp knife, and some glue.

-slim

[nslakediv]

The Train Shop, Tiffin OH. Owner and other half had to work full time jobs, not only that they wanted a life. He's a good friend of mine and will be seeing more of him now.