Is the Hobby being priced out of reach?

[Pruitt]

Ya know, one thing no one has mentioned is how the model press contributes to the sense that Model Railroading is getting more and more pricey.

Look at the layout feature articles. How many are DC vs. DCC? How many were / are being built in specially-constructed buildings / basements / rooms? How many have special room lighting / layout lighting? The layout articles tend towards the high-end layouts. But I remember this complaint from 30 years ago. Layout articles always tend to the high end - we all want to "Ooooh" and "Aaaaah" at magnificent creations. That usually means more expensive.

There are other ways the model press contributes to the pricey hobby viewpoint. When is the last time MR ran an article about adding detail to an inexpensive Athearn diesel, for example?

The hobby doesn't have to be expensive, but from just what you see in the model magazines, you might be hard-pressed to conclude otherwise.

[bikerraypa]

I don't think it is, overall. Are some items within the hobby out of reach for the average guy, monetarily? Yes, no doubt. That's why I don't have a fleet of brass 2-8-0's prowling my layout. But, I do have a very nice pair of Proto RS11's, some gorgeous Accurail boxcars and a fleet of very meticulously detailed Athearn hoppers, all sporting Kadee couplers. Even have a sweet-looking Bowser caboose. Good 'nuff for me.

That's one of the great things about model railroading. Whatever you want, it's there, and whatever your means, there's something for you. I can't afford a 2005 Corvette, but my 1990 Olds Cutlass Ciera still runs well.


Ray out

[selector]

Not to put too fine a point on the Ray's post, but does any of you have a Ferrari? No?

Why not?

Answer: Cuz you have what you have. What you currently have is what you could afford and/or what you valued at the time of purchase. Each of you (and I) has made a conscious desicion to purchase what currently runs on our systems based on a set of criteria that we established at the time. If I wanted a $100 caboose, I'm pretty sure I'd be well on my way to getting it if it were not already mine. The same goes for all of you; if you REALLY wanted something badly enough, you'd find a way to get it. For some, it's a job with Donald Trump, for others it's a brass locomotive. Each is achievable, just not for the vast majority of us based on our druthers and life's choices.

It really is that simple.

(Of course, we could all blame ourselves for choosing our parents unwisely if we were to adhere to the genetic side of the problem. You know, nature vs.nurture?)

-Crandell

[davekelly]

Ken,

Good point about things like housing, food, gas etc increasing more than salaries. Whether or not this is exactly the case, I don't know - but it did get me thinking. Even if we are to assume that these prices didn't rise more than salaries, we still have less discretionary income to spend. I'll use my neighbors as an example. 5 people. 2 home phone lines plus 4 cell phone numbers. Satellite TV. Internet/DSL service. 2 kids in soccer (not the local little league type thing, but the traveling team which requires 2 week summer camp), health club membership for mom. 4 vehicles (for 3 licenced drivers). Alot ot these expenses weren't around 20 or 30 years ago. How many engines could you buy a year for the cost of 2 cell phone lines and satelliteTV?

[Anonymous]

Don't get me wrong everyone.
I have 4 N scale locos and perhaps 20 wagons. I would say that excessive, would you? My road is the Chicago and North Western. I've just cut wood for a shelf switcher layout that's all I can afford, dollar and space-wise in my 2 bedroom apartment. Even the trackwork is expensive so I've designed down to eight switches. Luckily I like switching short trains, even in N scale. I will save my pennies to buy a Microtrains wagon, just for the detail.

I'm in awe of the enormous layouts the magazines feature, although very few of us in Australia have basements to use.

It's great to read all your posts everyone.

Good luck

Celestialsphere

P.S. If any MR editors happen to been reading this, the articles about small and realistic (build in a few months) layouts are what I buy your magazines for. Keep 'em coming!

[RMax1]

Some of us believe the hobby is too expensive but there is also a major contrast. I went to 2 different lhs's this weekend. At one I saw a boxcar that was really nice for $31.95. The other shop was going out of business and had everything 50% off. I bought a bunch of cheap hoppers from them at $1.50 each. The way I look at it once I work them over with the airbrush and add a few details I will still be well under $31.95. They maybe very different quality but entertainment value may be a big difference. There are somethings that are just outrageous in price and usually I can find a work around those items or i am not the market they are shooting for. The easiest way to send a message to the manufactures is simply not to buy the higher priced stuff. You will always have the people that will want the Rolls Royce . It's when the common things get out of reach that the distributors need to be sent a message"We're not buying that" Eventually they will get smart and go "Oh we're not selling anything!" and hopefully change their marketing strategy or go out of business.

RMax1
Hockey! You Canadian's have HOCKEY and at $30! No Hockey in Dallas this year except some minor leagues and try $65 for the cheap seats when the Stars do play!

[davekelly]

RMax,

Come on over to Lubbock - the Cotton King games are a blast to watch!! And a whole lot cheaper!

[RMax1]

When I was a kid I went to the Ft. Worth Red Wing games at Will Rogers. The Same place most of the train shows are at. Now they have the Brahmas there. At this point in time I would watch little old ladies play hockey! But seriously I hear that minor league in Texas is really good again. My dad was in Midland and watched a game there. He said it was fun and CHEAP!!!.

RMax1

[bikerraypa]

QUOTE: Originally posted by celestialsphere



...P.S. If any MR editors happen to been reading this, the articles about small and realistic (build in a few months) layouts are what I buy your magazines for. Keep 'em coming!

Yeah, and that doesn't just go for the Aussies! I love MR and have a great time looking at the expansive layout pics. This fall, when my home construction is done, I'll be starting a medium-sized HO layout as well, but it seems that the articles from which I gain the most when I read MR are the articles about small layouts. My N-scale layout I'm working on now borrows heavily from Don Culp's layout in the 3/05 MR, for example. Small layouts have a lot to offer.[:D]


Ray out

[tatans]

Hooray for all the 4 x 8 train guys, (your replies are great) seems you are having fun, living within your means, are self-satisfied, enjoying the hobby and not interested in that the object of this hobby is NOT having the most expensive layout and the most "stuff" I think I'm going to get a lapel pin made that says "4 X 8" and wear it proudly.

[siberianmo]

Just finished reading the posts to date on this thread and came away with the thought that civility rules. No joke .. isn't it nice to have a discussion with others in the hobby without some "Bozo" coming along to screw it all up?

Whether you agree or disagree or are simply neutral on what I and others had to say on these pages, the fact that we can offer our opinions without the rancor we've all witnessed on other threads, is refreshing. Hope it continues .......

For what it's worth, good job guys! [tup]

[trainnut57]

Wow, I guess I did open a can of worms on this post. What I guess I really wanted to say is that, as was pointed out, the mags all report on "high-end" layouts. I don't remember the last time I saw a layout builder in any hobby publication profiled as a retired(or currently employed) laborer, or garbage collector, or ditch digger, etc. I also live in a town that, although it has two places called train shops, neither one knows what a real train/hobby shop is. And I hope the two shop owners are reading this thread. Neither one of them has a decent selection of locomotives, cars, or even track. One sells various track but no track bed. Another has only cork and shudders at the words "Woodland Scenincs". "Don't stock that expensive stuff" I was told. (By the way, I live in Erie, PA). My point actually meant to be that because of the lack of real hobby shops in the area, catalogs and magazines are the norm and naturally they showcase the high end stuff. We have two train shows a year here where you can sometimes get a good deal, but the NIB's are generally rusted somewhere-grab irons, wheel sets, etc., and the used REALLY looks used. The turnout at these shows indicates that there is a significant demand for the hobby in this area, yet the two "locals", whom I have seen at the shows, don't seem to see or even want to take advantage of this. One even goes so far as to say "Oh, I can order it for you", well surprise, I too have an account at Walthers. I am disabled and cannot travel (very well) to Buffalo, Cleveland or Pittsburgh (go Steelers) to check out the hobby shops or the train shows at the malls and armory's, , so have to rely on catalogs to find what I want, and at very little discount. Yes there are many internet sites, but as an example, I am awaiting an order placed on April 20 from an internet site. Only after I e-mailed a question as to the status of my order over a week later did they tell me they were out of two of the three items I ordered and are awaiting re-stock. I doubt I will deal with them again soon, BUT they had the best price. Ergo, pricing in this hobby is everything for a very large group of people in this hobby. The need for the biggest and best is our downfall-not only because we will buy it whether we need it (or even can use it) or not, which in turn justifies the higher prices demanded and received by the manufacturer. I am, on ocassion, guilty of this, and will sometimes go to the lenght of expanding my trackage or do whatever has to be done to accomodate.
Finally though, to the one's that write about the cost of housing and gas, etc., rising as well as the hobby prices, you cannot compare apples to oranges. Housing is a necessity, as is clothing and food. Gas is arguably a necessity, but, .....you fill in the rest.

P.S. I love the hobby, I spend about six hours a day in my basement, but I will be forever griping about high prices. I hate having to pay for a name when the real quality may not be there.

[wp8thsub]

I haven't read all the posts in the thread but here's may take...

I would much rather have a layout with fewer, but higher quality, products than one full of cheapo stuff. I think a big problem with the perception of hobby pricing is that we have a good size segment of hobbyists who think they have to have a lot of stuff to enjoy modeling. The type of guys who feel they just can't have a good time without owning mass quantities of cars and locomotives, regardless of how good each individual model might be. Most modelers don't have the space for a huge layout, and from what I see of my fellow hobbyists, most of those who hoard stuff usually keep most of it in a box somewhere and it doesn't show up on the layout. If we could discipline ouselves to purchase what we really can use on the layout we're capable of building we would be less likely to exhaust our modeling budgets. How much sense does it make to "need" three Big Boys when all we have space for is something like a 12-foot long shelf layout? This won't cure the sticker shock for everybody, but far too many of us haven't gotten a reality check on our perceived requirements to go railroading.

I don't have a huge hobby budget these days, but I can handlay track, scratchbuild structures, build scenery, and still enjoy my modeling time without breaking the bank. The current inflation in train stuff presents an opportunity to learn these and other traditional modeling skills. I wish I had a brass locomotive for every guy I encounter who ***es about the cost of a $15.00 plastic tie turnout but flatly refuses to learn how to build one himself for a buck.

[aloco]

MSRP is ridiculously high, but I try to avoid it like the plague. There is no way I could afford to build a fleet of locomotives at retail prices.

[Jetrock]

Who needs a fleet of locomotives?? As the owner of a 12 foot shelf layout, I use a grand total of one locomotive at a time, which means that my other three locomotives sit around my engine-service facility, and my other half-dozen or so locos sit in their boxes grumbling about the unfairness of life. My brass Baldwin-Westinghouse sits on a display in my living room, unpowered but with its own sense of non-functional pride.

Unless you've got a big basement-filling monster of a layout, what exactly is the point of having to buy every new locomotive that comes out--and then griping because you can't afford them all? I'm not exactly in a space to talk--if you'll do the math, you'll note that I have about ten locomotives, not counting some trolley cars slated for repowering. But most of them were relatively inexpensive (from $20-140), and most of them are pretty small (my biggest bruiser of a locomotive is an Athearn GP-7.)

Maybe I take things for granted because I don't have any complaints about my local hobby shops. I think perhaps some folks take a look at their second-rate, poorly-run local hobby shop and assume that every shop is run that way--by contrast, the three nearby hobby shops in my neck of the woods vary from decent to eye-poppingly great, and the three or four train shows a year in the vicinity of where I live are often the source of outrageously screaming deals. So, at least from where I'm standing (northern California) the state of the hobby looks pretty good--but maybe it's not in your neck of the woods.

[selector]

"Other half-dozen locos"? I have exactly two (2), and they will remain my only two locos for quite some time (just did my income tax). I would love to have an early diesel (I'm in the transition era), and an all-metal K4. They will be my dream for a time to come, but the thoughts of ever having so many that I could contentedly leave a half-dozen sitting in a drawer are beyond me.

[aloco]

I have a 'fleet' because locomotives are my favourite aspect of model railroading. Some model railroaders are into structures, some are into scenery, some are into freight cars, etc., and some like a little bit of everything. It's all a matter of personal preference. All of my locomotives get running time, and I think it's nice to have a good selection. Unfortunately, locomotives are one of the most expensive components of a model railroad., and with limited batch production being the norm these days prices are even higher.

[Jetrock]

selector: yeah, other half-dozen, including what I euphemistically refer to 'the deadline." That, and my locomotives are small--my big "little four" are a pair of 44 tonners, a 70 tonner, and an S1. The other six are works in progress: a SP GP-7 and F-unit I have on long-term loan from my dad, an Athearn F7 I plan to convert into a boxcab Real Soon Now, the aforementioned Baldwin-Westinghouse, an SW-1 that needs a repaint, the barest bones of a GE steeplecab I have to finish, and a modified "critter" based on a 44-tonner shell left over from the GE steeplecab project.

Some like engines, some like scenery, some like operation--and some like starting lots of neat little projects for engine rebuilds--thus, four engines on the layout, six in drawers awaiting rebuilding...

[selector]

Gotcha, JR. Too, I forgot that most spend 'smart' time on e-bay getting far better than MSRP, so if, like you, a person wanted a large collection of locos, he might get six on e-bay for the price of two or three at a LHS.

So, there IS hope that I could win a bid and get my K-4 after all? Really? Okay, I'm pumped.

[Anonymous]

The prices now limits a person to more resonable projects, but most of the readers have forty five thousand dollar pickups. I do not have expensive cars or trucks, so I can spend money on a special piece of motive power or two. The best bargains are the used Overland and Key engines from the 1985 on to 2000 era.

[baggaley]

I tend to agree with those who say that the quality you get today is streets ahead of even 10 or maybe 20 years ago. Compare today's prices on the basis as a percentage of your earnings and consider what the situation was back then. Judging by the volume of products and new products available I don't think it's being priced out of reach. But true, some careful buying research is essential. It's not too expensive here in the UK with the current favourable UK pound/US dollar exchange rate

[Jetrock]

eek! I don't buy $45,000 pickups either--I drive a $3000 used station wagon! I suppose that means I supposedly have an extra $32,000 to spend on trains, but for some reason I can't find it anywhere...

[AggroJones]

I would LOVE to have a $3000 used station wagon!

[Jetrock]

I picked it up in your neck of the woods, Aggro--one of the used-car dealerships on Riverside. It's a 1990 Volvo that had 150,000 miles on it when I got it three years ago (it's now over 200K) and while I do have to put money into it sometimes (a head gasket replacement and brake job cost me enough to buy a pair of brand-new brass GE steeplecabs this winter!) it's still a lot more affordable than that $45,000 pickup truck, especially with insurance, gasoline, etcetera...

[Anonymous]

I see this thread has passed on to totally useless infomation. Time to give it a rest.

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FundyNorthern

I see this thread has passed on to totally useless infomation. Time to give it a rest.

Wow!! I never realized that Fundy had been made board administrator.

Congrats Fundy!!

[:P]

[selector]

(...he says, with tongue firmly in cheek...)

[edkowal]

It's not necessary to spend all of your money at once. You can save towards a particular item, and purchase it when you have enough put by.

Even items that are limited run are not gone forever. Other hobbyists interests change, or you can find it at an obscure hobby shop, where it's been sitting on a back shelf.

Part of the "problem" is that folks seem to want everything now, right now. It takes time to get this hobby the way you want it. So your monetary outlay will be spread over a long time. Unless you take the route that a few guys I know have taken, and build an entire layout really fast, operate that for a while, tear it out, and start over. Then repeat.

Also, you don't have to buy a kit for everything. Especially the more outrageously priced offerings that are available. I know that the laser cut this and the specially cast that costs money to design and master, and most of these small businesses are not making their owners rich. But, chances are a lot of them will sit on your shelf instead of the hobby shop shelf for quite a long time anyway. You can always scratchbuild, which is a lot of enjoyment for not so much money.

That can even be done for locomotives, IF you are willing to take the time and effort to do it. It used to be done that way all the time back in the really really old days. And it's done by some folks even now.

I'll climb down from my soapbox now. (By the way, when's the last time you actually saw a soapbox that wasn't in a museum display ?? (VBG))

[fievel]

It takes a real interest and commitment to invest money in a hobby, no matter
what your hobby is. Model railroading can get quite expensive. But, the old
saying "You get what you pay for" applies to our hobby. Back in the mid-Eighties,
I owned junker locos from Model Power and Bachmann. (I didn't pay much for
them). Now I prefer Kato. I'd rather have something that runs well and is somewhat
costly, than units which jerk and derail,that is, if they run at all.
There are so many things you can build on your own at much less cost than kits.
If I feel something is too expensive, I try to work around it.[:)]

[MAbruce]

Many are quick to start arguing that MRR prices are keeping pace with inflation, introduction of new technology, more details, etc. Others will argue that things in the hobby are actually more expensive. Who is right?

Time to take a big step back because I’m not sure the right question is being asked. Instead of asking if this hobby is being priced out of reach (which it may have always been), I wonder if the question should be “Is this hobby being priced to deal with its competition?”

I think we can all agree that relatively new technologies (like video games) have become the new hobby of choice to most of the younger generations. Add to this that railroading in general is not nearly as prominent (visible) as it once was, and you have a tough sell.

So if you argue that the increase in prices is in line with the general cost of things over the years, is that really good? I think not. I think that if this hobby is to survive and grow in the long term against its newer (and powerful) competition, it must at least win on low cost.

A long while ago it was the advent of TV that people thought would fini***he hobby. Now its video games. Who knows what’s next? I don’t think any of these by themselves will finish us off, but they have each taken their toll. Sure the hobby has endured, and has even maybe grown a bit recently. But if you take a hard look at the overall history of MRR’ing, I’m sure you will see an overall decline. So do you think keeping prices in pace with inflation (at the least) will help?