Is the Hobby being priced out of reach?

[trainnut57]

I have been modeling HO for over 30 years. When I first started, an "expensive" locomotive may cost $30.00. Now I have seen them over $1,000.00 (MR New Products, D.M&IR 2-8-8-2 page 8 of June 05 issue) and that's an N scale. There is no doubt the loco's look more realistic and have, literally, more bells and whistles than ever before, but how much more price increase can the hobby withstand without beginning to loose participants. Even the "less expensive" locomotives average over $100.00 each, and DCC is being promoted as the thing to have. I have over thrity-five locomotives left in my collection (I have worn out many more), and couldn't even begin to consider changing over to DCC from Analog, but I have to pay a "premium" for the new loco that I can buy and later convert to DCC if I want. Am I alone in this, excuse the pun, train of thought? I love the hobby, I am retired, and now that I am, I am even more careful about price. And NO, I won't consider buying on e-bay. I have also been waiting for over two weeks for a "discounted" internet order from a very reputable dealer.

[simon1966]

There are a lot of mail order and internet retailers, as well as train show retailers selling the excellent Proto 2000 locomotives for DC, without DCC decoders and sound for $30 to $70. Many are DCC ready, but don't have to be run that way. Sure the latest craze of DCC sound equipped locos are up there in price, but even these can be found at a good discount. I know you said "Not E-bay", but I have had great success with careful buying on E-bay, including a Broadway Limited E7 with sound and the works for under $100.00

[Roadtrp]

I really don't think model railroading is getting that much more expensive. When people think about what equipment cost 20 years ago they tend to forget that most of that equipment would be dismissed as "junk" today. Sure, you can spend a fortune but you don't have to. You can buy very good locomotives from internet vendors for $60. DCC is certainly being promoted as the thing to have, but that doesn't mean you have to have it. I doubt I will ever convert to DCC... with my relatively small layout I just don't see a need for it. Twenty years ago DCC didn't exist yet everyone got along just fine with what was available.

Today's model railroading has MANY more options than it did 20 years ago, and many of those options are VERY expensive. But I think you can take a low cost approach to it and still have fun. That's what I do, and I enjoy it.

[:)]

[MisterBeasley]

My father-in-law gave me some old trains he had, including a couple of packages of Atlas NS snap-track that looked like he had bought them in the sixties, certainly not much later than that. The price tags were still on them. Anyway, I had bought some of the same track pieces a few weeks earlier. I paid less, and that doesn't even factor in inflation. So, not everything is getting priced out of line.

Yes, it seems like a lot, but people routinely plunk down over a hundred for a round of golf. Stratton in Vermont charges 75 a day for skiing, and gas prices are going up so fast that pretty soon it will be as expensive as bottled water. A good chunk of the price run-ups over the past couple of years can probably be attributed to the run-down of the dollar, particularly against the currencies of the countries which are manufacturing the stuff we want.

In the old days, locomotives were not equipped with DCC, multiple individually-controllable lights, and sound. These high-end engines do a lot more than the model trains of our youth.

[cheese3]

yup, but you can still find some good deals sometimes. I wish steam locos were not as expensive as they are. I can find new diesels for $30-$50(my price range) but no steam in that range.

[Anonymous]

There are still kits you can buy.I bought an excellent condition Athearn GP38-2 powered today for 5 dollars.I like the higher end stuff too but I can have as much fun out of the Athearn.Point is you dont need the expensive stuff to have fun with model railroading.I came to that realization after spending big bucks for the high end stuff.I like to tinker with stuff so I prefer kits.Dan

[IRONROOSTER]

I think there are still enough economy priced things to get started with. Bluebox Athearn locomotives and cars. Some other car lines are still not too expensive. Atlas buildings and others are there also.. But there is also a lot of more expensive models as well with better detail. But still with a little paint, a few extra details you can have a model railroad that doesn't cost a lot and looks good.

Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

X Boxes, Playstations, Ipods, and all other current toys seem to be selling well, so there doesn't appear to be a great shortage of disposable income to many. If a model railroad engine costs $100.00 these days, it is just a drop in the bucket. Comparing prices to those in the "old days" is pretty well irrelevant. How many people in the hobby for 20 years or more are making the exact same salary as they were when they first got into the hobby? Prices go up all the time, live within your means. No one is pointing a gun at your head saying "You MUST HAVE a $500.00 engine to be considered a model railroader".

Make things on your own, scratchbuild, recycle older moders bought at train shows, do without the latest whiz bang items. You can still run a model railroad without DCC, sound, smoke, etc. Make do.

Bob Boudreau

[tatans]

Seen the price of houses lately?? I guess everything is relative, that special engine you want for $800.00 well, you will just have to wait till someone is selling a used one for $75.00. remember, there are guys looking at this forum who are wondering what "expensive" means, I will just keep getting someones expensive cast-offs for a pittance and really enjoying myelf rebuilding to fit my needs. Forget the $1700.00 brass locomotives, they are in a league of their own.

[nfmisso]

I find it interesting that this exact same cost concern has been express continually over the years. I have some 50+ your old MR and RMC magazines, with letters to the editor in them expressing great concern about the increasing cost of the hobby.

Adjusted for inflation, most of today's model railroading items are extreme bargins compared with those of 40 to 50 years ago. Check out the magazine ads of those days, compare with today, and check on inflation over the same period.

[siberianmo]

trainnut57

QUOTE: Is the Hobby being priced out of reach?

My answer is a "qualfied" yes.

You may have stirred the hornet's nest with this question. Just within the month, a couple of topics regarding Athearn and prices have brought the "wrath" upon anyone with opinions likening to what you've had to say. But, good for you!

Some people have no problems purchasing their first homes for $300k or more. Others think luxury cars are the way to go for their kids graduating from high school, and still others can fork over in excess of $10k just to ride an excursion train. Is the hobby being priced out of reach? Not for them. For people like I used to be - when I first began - absolutely.

I have to think back to the mid-1960's when I began with HO ... I was in my 30's, in the military, and not making a whole lot of money. My modest beginnings were with Tyco and Athearn. Still have 'em all - now in display cases, "retired" you know. My current HO layout, with all new "stuff" sits with easily $10k plus on the board ....... and not one piece is "upscale" .......

Priced out of reach for the guy who lives payday to payday, not because of an exhorbitant lifestyle, but because of necessity. Not the guy who has all kinds of expendable bucks. There really is a big difference.

I understand about things being 'relative,' but I'll tell you this - the prices of "things" today have far outstripped the incomes that I earned (I'm now retired from the military) in 'relative' terms. So, I don't buy that notion one bit. 'Relative' perhaps for the guy who had a decent income when he was in his 20's or 30's - mine was hardly that. Ask anyone who served in the U.S. military in my era (joined in '56 ....... retired in '88).

BUT, I must say this for those who disagree. You have a great point when you say that there are CHOICES available to us all. One can still purchase "entry level" loco's and rolling stock ..... no need to "go" for the gold at the onset. It's difficult to look at perhaps your favorite "upscale" loco and 'wish' you could afford it only to have to settle for something less. Isn't that one of the facets of life we all encounter with things much more necessary than our hobbies?

See ya![tup] [;)]

[on30francisco]

There are many products in this hobby that are being priced out of reach for the average person but there are ways around this. There are many reliable on-line hobby shops that sell their products, including high-quality locos, kits, and detail parts, below MSRP; sometimes way below MSRP. There are also many alternatives when it comes to buying scenery items, some detail parts, and scratchbuilding supplies. I buy most of my scenery material and scratchbuilding supplies such as stripwood, styrene, brass, glue, paints, etc. at the many discount arts & craft stores in the area. These stores charge MUCH less for these products than the LHSs do. I also use common household products such as leather dyes, india ink, alcohol, trinkets, etc. in place of some of the over-priced paints and detail parts.

[selector]

For some, undoubtedly. For most of us, not at all. When you consider that, in Canada, Joe Average Blue Collar will take himself and his two sons to a hockey game once or twice a month (some have season's tickets), and each ticket is $30 and up, it doesn't take more than two games before he'd have paid for a nice BLI steamer with QSI.

We all have our limits, priorities, and yearnings. Most of us live with them. If I ever have a brass loco, it will be because I am swimming in both time and cash, or because I was so determined to have one that I saved for it. Not sure either case will be an eventuality in my lifetime, 'cuz, like Tom, I'm a retired serviceman, and didn't join for the riches.

[Anonymous]

I have been back in model railroading since the early nineties. Atlas/Kato engines with flywheels have not gotten that much more expensive. Cars seem to have doubled in price. When inflation is factored in, I'm not sure that trains are that expensive. I've come to the realization that more is not necessarily better. I used to feel compelled to try to own everything in the road name(s) I modeled. I came to the realization that I had more engines than I could ever run and some engines I wish I had never purchased. A lot of it is simply learning to be content. When you have to "keep up with the Jonese's," or feel compelled to try, you are never happy. Our society preaches that more is better. Of course to sell product, you need to do so. That idea drives our economy. While it may help the economy, it does not lead to happiness. It makes me think of Imelda Marcos and her shoes.

[Anonymous]

The incredible variety that manufacturers offer these days WILL COST MONEY for them to produce. Every different variation means different detail parts, paint, printing screens etc.

And we've heard those model railroaders who complain that this manufacturer or that doesn't offer their favourite "North West Alaska and Rio Central Mountain Line" Shay in "that particular black I've always been waiting for...'"! And if some hard working manufacturer does oblige then it's, "Ohhhh NOOOOOOOOOOOO - there's only 52 rivets on the tender rather than 53, I'm not buying this garbage!"

Perhaps if all that was available was Union Pacific boxcars behind a generic diesel loco then they would cost 75 cents each, but how boring would that be?

Give the guys a break. Enjoy the variety you've got and be thankful that your hobby is so rich and creative.

[:P]

Celestialsphere

Melbourne, Australia

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by siberianmo

trainnut57

QUOTE: Is the Hobby being priced out of reach?

My answer is a "qualfied" yes.

Some people have no problems purchasing their first homes for $300k or more. Others think luxury cars are the way to go for their kids graduating from high school, and still others can fork over in excess of $10k just to ride an excursion train. Is the hobby being priced out of reach? Not for them. For people like I used to be - when I first began - absolutely.

I'd say that Siberianmo full reply comes closer to the truth than any post I've seen in a long time on the subject. For those in upper income brackets (typically the most outspoken on these threads) the hobby is a joy. For the majority of hobbyists it is closer to a struggle.

What has happened in recent years is that the range in the prces of HO items has greatly expanded, while there has been a shift toward the majority of items offered being in the middle and upper price range. At the same time the availability of low end equipment of reasonable quality has steadily shrunk. The extra expense of add-on and highly touted new features to the hobby, like DCC and sound, passed off by some enthusiasts as necessities, can hinder or stop new modelers dead in their tracks.

Similarly, because of the enormous range of "basic necessity" products available for building a layout, plus the fact that what you see in the way of layouts in the magazines and on-line generally can not even be approached without expending huge amounts of cash, I feel many enthusiasts, even established ones, feel they are being slowly pushed out of the hobby because they can not afford to build anything similar. While there are those who can claim that they've built whole layouts on a shoestring, from personal experience I'd advise any newcomer today that unless they are ready to spend a minimum of 10k for anything beyond a relatively modest 4x8 layout they had better look elsewhere than in this hobby. Model railroading is expensive relative to the incomes of "average" hobbyists and especially those currently in retirement (who happen to be close to the majority of hobbyists). Little wonder that the hobby is shrinking.

CNJ831

[trainnut57]

Obviously Celestialsphere is not on a fixed income as "siberianmo" and I am. A lot of good points were brought up, but think of this-how really, and I mean really, important is the detailing of the UNDERSIDE of a passenger car? Sure, such things as the "hang downs" must be there and visible, but the water and brake lines and connections, etc., directly attached to the floor? I don't know about you, but I display my cars upright.

[rogerhensley]

In a word, yes.
I no longer even look at the new items in my LHS as I can't afford them and scratchbuilding supplies are getting harder and harder to come by.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by celestialsphere

The incredible variety that manufacturers offer these days WILL COST MONEY for them to produce. Every different variation means different detail parts, paint, printing screens etc.

And we've heard those model railroaders who complain that this manufacturer or that doesn't offer their favourite "North West Alaska and Rio Central Mountain Line" Shay in "that particular black I've always been waiting for...'"! And if some hard working manufacturer does oblige then it's, "Ohhhh NOOOOOOOOOOOO - there's only 52 rivets on the tender rather than 53, I'm not buying this garbage!"

Perhaps if all that was available was Union Pacific boxcars behind a generic diesel loco then they would cost 75 cents each, but how boring would that be?

Give the guys a break. Enjoy the variety you've got and be thankful that your hobby is so rich and creative.

[:P]

Celestialsphere

Melbourne, Australia

Every time I see one of these posts, I think of how myopic the posters are. If you want a cheap, well detailed locomotive, if you want figures that are exactly what you want, if you want the perfect building, get out there and start your own company.

Oh, don't have the money for that?

How many companies have you seen close their doors after a few years of operation? What happened to their money? There is a pervading belief that just because you own a business that you have lots of money. In most cases it is people like you and me that risk everything they have on a dream.

The ones that make it are the ones that find the balance between what you need to charge to make a profit and what people are willing to pay to get your product. A company that does not make a profit will fail. You charge too little you will fail. If you charge too much you will fail.

You cannot be greedy and make it. So if the price seem high, either pay it or don't. You can save money on eBay if you are smart...What you don't want to risk your money on eBay?

[oleirish]

QUOTE: Originally posted by siberianmo

trainnut57

QUOTE: Is the Hobby being priced out of reach?

My answer is a "qualfied" yes.

You may have stirred the hornet's nest with this question. Just within the month, a couple of topics regarding Athearn and prices have brought the "wrath" upon anyone with opinions likening to what you've had to say. But, good for you!

Some people have no problems purchasing their first homes for $300k or more. Others think luxury cars are the way to go for their kids graduating from high school, and still others can fork over in excess of $10k just to ride an excursion train. Is the hobby being priced out of reach? Not for them. For people like I used to be - when I first began - absolutely.

I have to think back to the mid-1960's when I began with HO ... I was in my 30's, in the military, and not making a whole lot of money. My modest beginnings were with Tyco and Athearn. Still have 'em all - now in display cases, "retired" you know. My current HO layout, with all new "stuff" sits with easily $10k plus on the board ....... and not one piece is "upscale" .......

Priced out of reach for the guy who lives payday to payday, not because of an exhorbitant lifestyle, but because of necessity. Not the guy who has all kinds of expendable bucks. There really is a big difference.

I understand about things being 'relative,' but I'll tell you this - the prices of "things" today have far outstripped the incomes that I earned (I'm now retired from the military) in 'relative' terms. So, I don't buy that notion one bit. 'Relative' perhaps for the guy who had a decent income when he was in his 20's or 30's - mine was hardly that. Ask anyone who served in the U.S. military in my era (joined in '56 ....... retired in '88).

BUT, I must say this for those who disagree. You have a great point when you say that there are CHOICES available to us all. One can still purchase "entry level" loco's and rolling stock ..... no need to "go" for the gold at the onset. It's difficult to look at perhaps your favorite "upscale" loco and 'wish' you could afford it only to have to settle for something less. Isn't that one of the facets of life we all encounter with things much more necessary than our hobbies?

See ya![tup] [;)]A-MAN just finished reading your post,you have hit the nail on the head[:D]IMy first train was tyco in 1954( a saddle tank)got it for xmas,being in the military my self for over 20 years.(59-82)I.ve had to watch my money that I spend on MR'ing some of my engines and rolling stock are real old but have steel wheels and kadee couplers on them.Now days I go to the LHS and do a lot of drulling the price for kits are unreal.

OLE'IRISH

[Anonymous]

It's the detail that costs! Compare a bachmann Gs-4 4-8-4 ($119.99) with a detailed
DCC brass. Many modelers wont settle for less anymore.

[nfmisso]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse


..........If you want a cheap, well detailed locomotive, if you want figures that are exactly what you want, if you want the perfect building, get out there and start your own company.

Oh, don't have the money for that?

How many companies have you seen close their doors after a few years of operation? What happened to their money? There is a pervading belief that just because you own a business that you have lots of money. In most cases it is people like you and me that risk everything they have on a dream.

The ones that make it are the ones that find the balance between what you need to charge to make a profit and what people are willing to pay to get your product. A company that does not make a profit will fail. You charge too little you will fail. If you charge too much you will fail.

You cannot be greedy and make it. So if the price seem high, either pay it or don't. You can save money on eBay if you are smart...What you don't want to risk your money on eBay?

Chip;

Excellent !!!

[canazar]

Ok, here is my .02 cents. Granted, I may be pretty new to the hobby, only a couple of years of heavy involvment, but I have been very lucky and handed a unique look at it in perspective.

I had a uncle who passed before I was born on my mothers side. He was in to the hobby in a big way. Many nights my mother remembers being a little girl out trainwatching or wathcing him work on his trains at his house.

One of my most treasured posseions is 2 rather large boxes of engines they kept from him after he passed. I have over 40 brass engines. A few are cheapies he had, one might have even been his first kit or two. But most of them are Olympic and Tenshodo (along with another that escapes me, and I think I misspelled the Tenshodo one)

I did some digging ad there babies were considered the best in their day. I have been told they could be compared to Kato or BroadWay Limited. Most still have the stickers on them from Todd's Hobby Shop in Phila, PA. They range from 89.99 to 169.99 for the Big Boy. They were purchased between 1955 and 1970.

Thats a helluva alot money back then. 150 bucks for an engine.... When my parents bought there first home out here in Arizona in 1974, the mortage was 350 somehting.

So, now I look at my Athearn Geni SD70 which I paid 90 bucks for.... Seems fair to me. Actually a bit cheaper when you factor in the rate of inflation compared to back then. Even for a good mid size steam engine WITH sounds, cost only hundred bucks more for what he spent on his best and biggest engine back then. Again, 30-40 years of inflation, the math would point out that the engine of today, is way cheaper than it was back then.

There is still plenty of cheap stuff out thee for people who want to dabble in the hobby... Classic Example, Bachman and Easy DCC, get a DCC equipped engine for 30 bucks!

Sometimes, late at nite when I am running my trains... I wonder what my Uncle Bill would say if he could see my BLI cab-foward, the details, the smoke, bells rining, horn blowing..... I am pretty sure he would have said I got a one heck of a deal.

Best Regards
John k

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar

I did some digging ad there babies were considered the best in their day. I have been told they could be compared to Kato or BroadWay Limited. Most still have the stickers on them from Todd's Hobby Shop in Phila, PA. They range from 89.99 to 169.99 for the Big Boy. They were purchased between 1955 and 1970.

Thats a helluva alot money back then. 150 bucks for an engine.... When my parents bought there first home out here in Arizona in 1974, the mortage was 350 somehting.

So, now I look at my Athearn Geni SD70 which I paid 90 bucks for.... Seems fair to me. Actually a bit cheaper when you factor in the rate of inflation compared to back then. Even for a good mid size steam engine WITH sounds, cost only hundred bucks more for what he spent on his best and biggest engine back then. Again, 30-40 years of inflation, the math would point out that the engine of today, is way cheaper than it was back then.

The critical point you missed, canazar, is that the Tenshodo et al. stuff are examples of hand made models, while the todays Athearns are a stampled out, mass produced item. This is like trying to compare an original oil painting with a print of the same scene...they just aint in the same class and certainly not of comparable value, past, present, or future. For the technonolgy of the day the former were lightyears ahead of any plastic models (even some of today's!). This is why the brass models increase in value over time, while even the best of today's plastic will only loose value in the future. You are attempting to justify price increases while comparing apples with oranges and that just doesn't work.

CNJ831.

[canazar]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar

I did some digging ad there babies were considered the best in their day. I have been told they could be compared to Kato or BroadWay Limited. Most still have the stickers on them from Todd's Hobby Shop in Phila, PA. They range from 89.99 to 169.99 for the Big Boy. They were purchased between 1955 and 1970.

Thats a helluva alot money back then. 150 bucks for an engine.... When my parents bought there first home out here in Arizona in 1974, the mortage was 350 somehting.

So, now I look at my Athearn Geni SD70 which I paid 90 bucks for.... Seems fair to me. Actually a bit cheaper when you factor in the rate of inflation compared to back then. Even for a good mid size steam engine WITH sounds, cost only hundred bucks more for what he spent on his best and biggest engine back then. Again, 30-40 years of inflation, the math would point out that the engine of today, is way cheaper than it was back then.

The critical point you missed, canazar, is that the Tenshodo et al. stuff are examples of hand made models, while the todays Athearns are a stampled out, mass produced item. This is like trying to compare an original oil painting with a print of the same scene...they just aint in the same class and certainly not of comparable value, past, present, or future. For the technonolgy of the day the former were lightyears ahead of any plastic models (even some of today's!). This is why the brass models increase in value over time, while even the best of today's plastic will only loose value in the future. You are attempting to justify price increases while comparing apples with oranges and that just doesn't work.

CNJ831.

Ok,
I can concede to your point and understand what you mean. But compareing the production methods and quality is not the point. Affordablity and the end product are.

I know my Cab foward is on par, if not a bit better than one my uncle had. Throw in the extra features, DCC and sound, it still abetter deal then what he paid It still gives proof to my point that the priceing is not chaseing people out of the hobby.

Personaly, I am quite happy with my Geni SD70, both details and running.... I am very happy with my 90 dollar some engine versus the OverLand brass SD70Ace for 1000.00. Or, you could by the RTR series from Athearn for 70. P2K for 50. or Life Like horn and hook job for 19.99... and comes with a caboose. POint is, there is still plenty out there for the money someone wants to spend. Either it be cheap to tinker in the hobby, or it is your life's passion and invest in heavily for the happiness.

Besides, my personal view of this, both from professsionals and knowing the world of "sales" the over all price will come down in the next few years....

First you had the detial race. Then the sound race is booming (no pun intended). Companies could charge more say 120 vs other guys 100 due to "We got more detail" Well now you have 3 folsk all doing the same detail, and Average Joe is going to go "Well, they look the same, but this one is 89.99 instead of 99.99. the manufactures know this.

Same thing with Sound. You one only got it, you can charge all you want fot it, becuase no other choice. Well guess what, now you got 3 Biggies all making sound equppied. And prcie is dropping. Compettion is good, plus the advanced of techonolgy. It is not so novel any more. more used, cheaper it gets. I am hopeful. I am looking foward to the fall to see how many more sound units are going to come out. And see how cheap they are getting.[:)]

Best Regards....

John k

[Eriediamond]

After reading thorugh this thread a few times and after some thoughy on this subject, I hace to say I agree with some and not with others. In my opinion the the hobby is expensive, yes but I think the problem lies in that not only have the hobby prices risen over the years but other things such as the such as housing, food transportation and the neccessary things in life have risen as well--- more so then our pay checks (take home) have risen. Therefore less can be spent on the fun things of which model railroading is one of them. I will agree that is is fustrating to have to purchase a new loco and pay the price for the extra electronics for DCC that I will never use, but that is the trend of things now days. I can't blame a manufacturer for products built for the market and DCC is the future. We straight DC people are the minority now and the market place is now DCC or soon will be. You want to compare the price of model railroad supplies from the fifties and now, I can remember spending $20 dollars for a weeks worth of groceries. those same groceries now cost $200. I do believe that this hobby is slowely becoming a rich mans hobby, but not neccessarily from manufacturers over pricing their products though. Another thing to remember also is that in the "old days" the technology was not what it is today and the serious modeler spent a lot of time adding detail and upgrading those products back then that is "standard" on todays models or kits. Thanks Ken

[espeefoamer]

You have to shop carefully.Last weekend,I bought a used IHC SP 2-6-0 for $25.A cxouple of years ago,I found a used Bachmann Spectrum PRR K4 for $35.I only buy diesels when I can find them on sale.Yesterday, I got an Athearn CF7 for $60.At one time I was able to pick up an Athearn GP60M and a Bachmann Spectrum Dash 8 44CW for $60.each. I have never spent $100.on a loco,but at train shows,and at some hobby shops I have found good deals.I even have an old AHM cab forward I was able to pick up In trade for some old American Flyer trains.I'm sure you can get some good deals too,if you shop around[:)].

[GMTRacing]

There are a lot of good points here both pro and con. I suppose a way to look at things is to factor in inflation and the consumer price index and then compare, but I take a more simplistic approach. There are all these expensive products out here because of supply and demand, if everyone thought the new stuff was overpriced, no one would buy it and - no market - no sales - no more high end stuff. It's a lot like the people we see every day driving solo in their huge expensive cars. They don't get you there any faster, but the people that buy themmust think them good value for the money or otherwise worthwhile (status?) or they would,t bother.
There are still reasonably priced items out there in our hobby, we can still apply sweat and work to get a highly detailed piece out of a generic kit if we must and can't/won't go the price for an RTR with all the stuff. I prefer to buy and build kits, I'm also cheap and buy used stuff (not on E-bay ecch) where i can. Ithink entry level product is probably better (ok is better) than the TYCO stuff I started with, and so long as there is a market for entry level we'll be ok. My more major concern is the fact that the hobby is shrinking, and if the "economy of scale" vanishes, either we'll lose a bunch of manufactures or the prices will go through the roof completely because of lack of volume.[2c] regards, J.R.

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831
[While there are those who can claim that they've built whole layouts on a shoestring, from personal experience I'd advise any newcomer today that unless they are ready to spend a minimum of 10k for anything beyond a relatively modest 4x8 layout they had better look elsewhere than in this hobby.
CNJ831

And just what is so bad about a relatively modest 4x8 layout?
[?]

The fact that you can't afford a Mercedes doesn't mean you shouldn't drive. The fact that you can't afford a layout that will be published in MR doesn't mean you should stay out of the hobby.

I have a lot of fun with my layout (all 3-1/2 ' x 7' of it) and I have not had to spend a lot of money on it.

[Anonymous]

I am on a allowance. I will wait a few months until I complete a high dollar purchase. If I look at the early 70's and 3,000 dollar Ford Mustang GT's with A/C and 19,000 homes with basements... there is really no way to see the difference between then and now.

Gas then was maybe .30 a gallon, today we are using the same gas at 2.50 a gallon. Who's to say that on our incomes gas is too expensive?

I have several engines with QSI that has brought me joy. But I will not run after every one made in the hobby. Sometimes it's ok to go to the LHS and spend a few hours "looking" and not spend anything. You will probably have a list of things ready to be started when you get back to home.

I have a favorite engine in Brass. There is no way I can afford such a beauty. But there are those who can and when we see these things run in pictures, video or in person they can bring joy.

When I see a train rolling down the track, I see the whole train. I dont care if it is pulled by a Mantua engine older than I am or a trio of QSI engines. The very fact that the train is on the move is a achievment.

When Intermountain came onto the scene with the beautiful boxcars and reefers costing 25.00 each... I almost fainted. The LHS showed me O Scale models almost double or triple the price.

At that point I know everyting is running good in HO land.

If my wife counts the train moving down the track and enjoys it good... but if she asked me the ball park figure of the cost of the train, track, roadbed, DCC, radio, buildings each car etc etc etc...

I say this: "Expensive. But cheaper than going crazy with nothing to do or relieve stress during down times at home."

Case in point: My wife sometimes "Liberates" computer shipping cases that hold keyboards. The cardboard boxes are thrown into the trash and I go hunt for them from time to time. For each one of these cases I can store 16 HO scale 40 foot cars for free.

Beats ordering one for anything between 20-45 dollars and up. I have like 30 of these cases now and I feel pretty good at having made do. And less trash for the landfill too.