Walmart is Truly Evil!

[wt259]

Yes it is a shame to see old buildings fall into disrepair and be lost. A C&NW roundhouse in MIlwaukee was razed many years ago, and there is now a small industrial park there (with a defunct KMart).

[Anonymous]

I'm always saddened and angered to hear about things like this! I'm not going to go on about whether or not Wal-Mart stores are good or bad, but the destruction of historic buildings such as this is absolutely sickening! It really doesn't matter so much who is there in place of what once was, but rather the fact that it was allowed to happen. Old, historic buildings (of all kinds, not just railroad) are part of our heritage and need to be preserved! It seems that far to many people have a complete disregard for history and are concerned about money only.

Sadly, I have a couple of more examples to add.

A couple of years ago in Winnipeg, the old Eaton's building was torn down to make way for some sort of big ugly glass building of some kind. There was a public outcry over this and many people tried in vain to stop its destruction. For those of you who don't know, Eaton's was once the largest mail-order company in all of Canada. EVERYBODY bought from Eaton's. Most cities had an Eaton's department store and all of the people in rural and isolated areas of Canada bought practically everything from their catalog. I'm sure that a great many Canadian modelers got their start with a train set bought at Eaton's. This building had been the company's headquarters. Bottom line, Eaton's was a Canadian icon and major part of our country's history.

Some of you are probably familiar with the Skydome in Toronto, home of the Toronto Blue Jays. Did you also know that the site on which it stands was once the home of CN's Spadina roundhouse and yard. This was probably the most famous roundhouse in all of Canada. It was build in 1927. It remained busy, even after the end of steam when it serviced diesels. There was even a public observation platform so that people could watch the activity. It was torn down in 1985. Worst of all, though, it was not an old, delapitated building. It was being actively used by Via Rail for it's locomotives and Via also had a coach yard in the area. Via had to pack up and move somewhere else because the city decided that the new Skydome should be built there.

Also, the Montreal home of William Cornelius Van Horne, the great builder of the Canadian Pacific Railway, was torn down in I think the 80's (could have been the 70's). It was done overnight and no one was even told that there were plans to tear it down. It was all kept secret. Afterwards, people were outraged. A person from city council later tried to justify this by saying that the house "really didn't have anything to do with Quebec's history." I'm dead serious. If the CPR doesn't have anything to do with Quebec's history, then I don't what does!

As others have said, we've got protect the historic places that are still left before someone does come up with an idea of getting rid of them. If we save them now, we won't have to scramble to quickly do it when it's too late.

I'll end my post with one of my favorite quotes:

"A country that forgets it's past has no future."
-Winston Churchill

[cwclark]

Evil or not...the old has to go someday and the new brought in...one day all that will be left are pictures of the old roundhouse...but..where else are you going to go to get everything for the home at a reasonable price?....Wal-mart or Sam's club...

[Anonymous]

http://www.detnews.com/2005/nation/0503/16/A09-118305.htm

"Here, in the nation's oldest city, history has become a burden."
. . . . .
"That, as it happens, is precisely the rub: This place has so much history, so many surviving structures of historical significance, not to mention undiscovered buried artifacts, that experts say it could take tens of millions of dollars for the city to acquire and preserve them all."

If we saved everything, everybody wanted to save from the past, we'd have no present. Time moves on, if you want to save something work to save it, but realize that the Historic Drive-In Society, the Main Street Preservation Society, the Historic Jail Society, the Save Our Original Schools Society, etc. is fighting the same battle. To say nothing of the Save Our Farms, Save our Trees, Save our Wild Grasslands . . . . they probably are arguing for tearing down all the old Roundhouses and reverting the land back to it's 'natural' state before humans ruined it.

Pick your battles and fight hard when you've picked them

[dwRavenstar]

Sounds like neglect claimed many of these historical landmarks long before progress got around to clearing the debris away.

Dave (dwRavenstar)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

trainluver,

OK. I'm confused again. If I understand correctly, if Walmart comes to a town with lots of money and, of course, lawyers, they are the bad guys when the city council that is elected by the people do what the people don't want them to do. It seems to me that the bad guys would be the city council that lets that happen, or is it? Why would the city council do something that the people don't want? Could it be that they know what the voter turn out will be next election? Isn't the city council here, or local historical society, or the residents just as guilty as WalMart for destroying the landmark for letting it happen or not saving it earlier?

I am all for saving historical buildings, areas etc. One thing that must be thought about however, is are we willing to pay the cost? Yup, I'm sure Wal-Mart got tax breaks, but there is tax being paid. If a site were occupied by a non-profit, would there be tax revenue for the town/county etc? How will money be raised to maintain the site? Are the residents willing to shoulder the cost? Or do the residents not want that cost, but instead want a place to buy things cheap?

Yup, Walmart runs over the little guy. But before we point fingers, let's look within. How many posts are on this forum where lively discussion is taking place on where to find the cheapest MR stuff? It looks to me that the vast majority of folks on this forum want the cheapest price they can get - even if it means the mom and pop LHS in town goes out of business. Does that make them any different?

Davekelly

Let's jump on every little detail shall we...

I blame everyone involved when a large chain store is allowed to come in and destroy something historical. Like a lot of folks around these parts, I'm an extreme conservative, so I really don't like a lot of change to my environment in the first place, and though the place where this topic is about is no where near where I live, it still burns me to hear it...

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: Let's jump on every little detail shall we...

Ah.....but the devil is always in the details!

[selector]

Folks, they ain't building any more land...right? And, any number of do-gooders resist urban expansion and encroachment into parklands and greenspaces within built-up areas....right? And we all want (some really need) bargains....right? And old rundown buildings that have sentimental value to a few people are neglected by a majority in a democracy...right?

WALMART is not the evil entity. It is a carefully managed business that caters to those who look for a bargain. In order to offer bargains, it has to GET THEM.

Apathy, envy, resentment, avarice, necessity, and despair in a population are examples of what bring us into conflict. Which of these has led to this topic?

[davekelly]

Mister Beasley,

Although we've disagreed on another topic in this forum, I'm pretty sure we're seeing this one the same way. [:)]

trainluver,

Yes, it's the details. But then, if no one takes care of the details, that historic building disappears and folks get mad. Hopefully enough folks will get mad to take care of the details and save such things.

[davekelly]

trainluver,

If I can expand. I think we both see eye to eye on the the forces that cause historic sites to get run down and then taken away from us forever. That is truly sad. If a building cannot be maintained for the purpose for which it was originally built, perhaps it can be saved in a new role so that it's archetecture and history can be preserved. As a Civil War buff, I've read over the years of the historic battlefields that are being overrun by development in northern Virginia with concern. However, involved citizen groups have worked tirelessly with local, state and federal governement as well as with developers and other concerned citizens. Because of their efforts, many acres of what I consider sacred ground have been saved with more on the way. Is it easy? Nope. But it shows what can be done - only if folks are willing to work for it. Can we save all of it? Doubt it, but perhaps we can save enough so that those that follow us can enjoy and appreciate it.

Dave

[betsy662]

QUOTE:
Um... Actually they do! Mal Wart only builds in places where they can get a lot of traffic and hope to put local businesses out of business with their policies of selling goods made in sweatshops in the "very far" and not treating empoyees well. (over 700,000 out of about 1,000,000 US Mal Wart employees do not have health insurance.) Just remember.. Mal*Wart your source for cheap plastic crap (but don't worry, they will pass on the savings to you)! I would rather pay more elsewhere.

Amazing the amount of ignorance that seems to abound in an educated society, as one of the 1.3 million employees of Wal-Mart, (Sam's Club), I can assure you that we do have benefits, and we do have health insurance, and many do opt out of the insurance plan, true its a lousy plan, but we do have one, for those of us who are Sam's Club employees, we have the added benefit of carrying much of our insurance needs within our Sam's Club membership, and also, before you trash Wal-Mart for selling cheap plastic crap, remember that Atlas, Walthers, and BLI have all their "Cheap" plastic overpriced engines produced in "RED CHINA", but I don't see anyone ***ing about the fact that the same sweatshops that produce much of what is sold at Wal-Mart is also producing much of the engines and rolling stock you guys go gaga over because its newer and better detailed and of course much more expensive than MDC or Athearn, which is produced in the USA............[V][V][V]

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: I can assure you that we do have benefits, and we do have health insurance, and many do opt out of the insurance plan, true its a lousy plan, but we do have one

I don't have a problem with Wal-Mart's products, or with their pricing: I think they probably make a better contribution to the lives of the working poor than a lot of charity programs. But I will make one exception to that generalized statement: their employment policies make me uneasy. I am appalled at the recent court case where illegally hired immigrants were locked in the building overnight while they cleaned it. I dislike the fact that Walmart has been accused repeatedly of firing employees who tried to organize unions.

Nothing personal here, btw -

[betsy662]

I know theres nothing personal there, what you have heard about some being locked in the buildings overnight, I work overnight at a Sam's Club, we are locked in, of course the doors are locked, we are closed, unlike the Wal-Mart Supercentre next door to our store, we aren't open 24/7, but we do have one on the night crew who holds the key, and we do open the door at our lunch break, and if someone absolutely has to get in or out, it can be done, nothing unusual about the labor practices there, I once spent a full night locked inside a Sears store, (working security), K-Mart, Target, and Publix all have the doors locked at night, and for the stores large enough with enough sales that it justifies night stocking, those doing the work at night are going to be locked in the building..............[8][8][8]

[gvdobler]

davekelly has my vote as the voice of reason.

Walmart is the largest corporation in the world. Even bigger than General Motors. Someone must be shopping there. When you pay 3-4 dollars less for a 8-10 dollar item that's made in the states, I would say they are helping more low income people than anyone can imagine.

Anyone could have bid against them for the land. If you owned the land and someone told you not to tear down that old building, thereby rendering your land useless, you would be flipping through the Yellow Pages for an attorney while screaming about the loss of your private property rights.

Jon - Las Vegas

[davekelly]

Jon,

thanks [:)]

I do think, though, that everyone here, whether I agree or disagree with them has only the best intentions in the world. We just disagree on how to achieve it.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MAbruce

Oh great, just what this forum really needs - another "I hate Wal-Mart" topic. [sigh][xx(]

That's exactly what it is, and I couldn't be happier! DOWN WITH WALMART!!!!!![^][^] Costco or Mejier or Target atleast build on non RR land!

[Virginian]

What's the deal with Meijer? They are right across the street from Wally World and have 99% the same stuff, and they are higher on every single item, and some people shop there! What's with that please? I mean seriously, I do not for the world see how they survive.
Target has clothes that fit my fiancee (ever see size 5 jeans? ever imagine size 5 jeans?!?), and I have found some too, so that's why we go there.
Costco has a fabulous carmel apple chocolate pie. Anyone making anything that good deserves some business.
I get gas at KDS because they're cheapest. Haven't found anyone selling American gasoline. :-)
I drive a Jeep because it's an American.....uh make that German American now, company. Of course when I needed them, the brake pads came from Argentina, a rotor came from China, and brake shoes came from Malaysia.
My fiancee's Ford Mustang recently got a new set of head bolts, from that same bastion of capitalism where BLI products are made.... red China.
Whatcha gonna do?
All Americans want is the lowest price, and we're getting it.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

trainluver,

If I can expand. I think we both see eye to eye on the the forces that cause historic sites to get run down and then taken away from us forever. That is truly sad. If a building cannot be maintained for the purpose for which it was originally built, perhaps it can be saved in a new role so that it's archetecture and history can be preserved. As a Civil War buff, I've read over the years of the historic battlefields that are being overrun by development in northern Virginia with concern. However, involved citizen groups have worked tirelessly with local, state and federal governement as well as with developers and other concerned citizens. Because of their efforts, many acres of what I consider sacred ground have been saved with more on the way. Is it easy? Nope. But it shows what can be done - only if folks are willing to work for it. Can we save all of it? Doubt it, but perhaps we can save enough so that those that follow us can enjoy and appreciate it.

Dave

davekelly, you're alright after all (and a fellow Texan)...

You may not believe this, but as I was writing earlier, it did in fact cross my mind about the civil war battle fields that are in danger. Thank you for mentioning that. I'm also a civil war buff.

[davekelly]

trainluver,

Way cool!! I guess neither of us should be surprised that each other has such strong opinions - after all isn't that what being a Texan is all about? [:)]

It might just be me, but I've found that those that are involved in this hobby are much more appreciative of the history of our country.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

trainluver,

Way cool!! I guess neither of us should be surprised that each other has such strong opinions - after all isn't that what being a Texan is all about? [:)]

It might just be me, but I've found that those that are involved in this hobby are much more appreciative of the history of our country.

Ain't it the truth... GBY (God Bless You) davekelly

trainluver1

[IRONROOSTER]

One of the things that truly amazes me is how Walmart unlike any other retailer has come to symbolize the Evil Empire. I hate to tell you, the Evil Empire is us. We all want cheap prices (me included) so the market is changing to accomodate us. But it's not just Walmart, it's Lowe's, Home Depot, Target, Costco, etc. The business model that delivers this best, is chains of large stores. The Internet has enabled the big box store equivalent on a national scale. The only way the small store can survive is to be such in a small niche market that is not worth the big boys time or to be in markets with income levels high enough that the convience of the local store outweighs the extra cost. Not too many of either of these.

Having watched the land wars here in Northern Virginia for the last 30 years, I can tell you the only way to be sure of preserving historic sites is to buy them. The developers win most of the court battles and even when they lose they come back in a few years and win the next time around. The reason is that we all want a house - it's the American dream after all. Well they have got to go somewhere, if you tell someone they can't develop their land they sue. After all you're taking money away form them. The alternative is to buy the land, but that takes money.

Do I wish it were different? Yes, I do. I do what I can by not doing all my shopping at big box stores. I refuse to move into a bigger house on a teeny lot. (I thought a 13000 sq ft lot was small when we bought in 1979 - now it's huge, at least around here.) If enough of us make an effort to do the little things we can do then maybe we can shape the future. We won't stop the wave of change, but maybe we can channel it a little.

Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

WalMart- No thanks! I'll support my local shops and the good people that run them and PAY TAXES!

[tatans]

"Free Enterprise" An economic system based upon private ownership and operation of business with little or no governmental control: also called private enterprise.
Not much else to say, really.

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

QUOTE: Originally posted by MAbruce

Oh great, just what this forum really needs - another "I hate Wal-Mart" topic. [sigh][xx(]

That's exactly what it is, and I couldn't be happier! DOWN WITH WALMART!!!!!![^][^] Costco or Mejier or Target atleast build on non RR land!

So I’m guessing when your Mom and Dad shop for your school supplies, toilet paper, snacks, etc., at Wal-Mart, you demand they return everything?

[davekelly]

lol

[Anonymous]

Someone tell me how many roundhouses there where in the 40s and someone tell me how many roundhouse there are now please. The point is Roundhouses are not very Common. there are yards everywhere. But there are only a handful of roundhouses left. I don't think walmart needed to tear down the Roundhouse. The parking takes up most of the yard and most of the roundhouse. Could have brought more tourists.

[cacole]

The problem lies more with local government officials than with Wal-mart. Abandoned railroad property is regarded by many cities as a civic eyesore that must be done away with as soon as possible. The only reason Wal-mart is getting the blame is because they just happen to be looking for a cheap site on which to build a store, and local officials make them an offer they can't refuse. Wal-marts generate tax dollars and abandoned railroads don't. Economics are driving this train....

[davekelly]

CNWJay,

I agree that there aren't all that many roundhouses left. But as been pointed out above, no one took the initiative to purchase the land/roundhouse and renovate it in order to attract the tourists. Given the apparent condition of the land/roundhouse it appears that in time the place would become a hazard and most likely would have to be torn down. What if the owner previous to Walmart tore it down? From the town's perspective, would there be enough additional tourists drawn to the town to bring in more income than the Wal-Mart? Would there have been as many jobs created? I'm sure there are many many variables that we can't even think of. But I guess the bottom line is, if the town and the previous owner didn't want to save the roundhouse, why should have Walmart?

[Anonymous]

Personally, I don't buy the "more tourists" argument. It seems to me this area is already at least somewhat "touristy". How many tourists REALLY would you get? You'd get people who are train buffs/railfanners mostly, other history minded people, and likely very few others. It seems to me that if there was money to made "touristing" the place out, it would have been done already. I know if I had in my possession something that could in the long term make me money, I'd spend whatever I had to to fix it. Especially a tourist trap. Tourists pay $2.00 for a can of Coke at a tourist trap, when that same can can be had at most soda machines for 50 or 60 cents. And T-shirts? Caps? "Miscellaneous memorabilia"? Tourists spend huge money. Of course, that is an argument (seeming a large one) that "The tourists would make whomever made the roundhouse a museum rich". I contend if thats the case, it would have already been done, or there would have been a much bigger fight to prevent WalMart (or anyone else) from coming in. Obviously the locality figures Walmart is going to bring in more money than tourists. I think thats probably true. Obviously the people in the area are happy with whatever tourist traffic they get and prefer to buy things cheap. Or they figured any new tourists wouldnt add a significant amount of money to the local econemy, where as the Walmart would.

Furthermore, with even 6 stalls still left, there is probably enough room for some tourist action at the site. There probably are not many (any?) parties shopping around to make it a tourist trap because the reality is that the potential for big tourist money simply does not exist.

Also, in regards to Target, Costco et al, I am willing to bet that somewhere one or all of these stores are sitting on land from the railroads.

\Dan

[Jetrock]

The funny part of all this is that railroads certainly had their period of demonization as despoilers of the common man, monopolistic manipulators, and enemies of American labor and unions as a whole. Studying railroad history has brought this to light--reading harsh accounts of the various underhanded practices of American railroads reminds me a lot of reading modern criticism of organizations like Wal-Mart.

None of which means I'm going to shop at Wal-Mart anytime soon.

About the use of historical structures: Adaptive reuse of railroad buildings is a common idea, although engine-servicing facilities have special problems: railroads were polluters of a grotesque degree, and often the costs of cleaning up the toxic messes on railroad land will deter anyone from building on them. Stations are easier--in Sacramento, the old Western Pacific station is a restaurant, the CTC building next to it houses an art gallery and a drug/alcohol rehab program, and the REA building next to the train station downtown is being refurbished into a restaurant/retail/office building. I suppose someone with a lot of energy and desire for historic preservation and gobs of money could make adaptive reuse of a roundhouse. But it wouldn't be too easy.

And Wal-Mart, I suppose, will probably just pave over that century's worth of toxic goo anyhow.