Metal wheel sets. How much do they help?

[grayfox1119]

If you rub a plastic comb through your hiar on a day when the air is very dry, you will pick up a static charge. This same principle works for plastic wheels. They will pick up a charge while rolling, and hence will attract any opposite charges particle on your tracks.
Metal on metal does not have electro-static charging, so that is why your tracks seem to be cleaner with metal wheels.
If you are picking up crud with metal wheels, I would suggest that you check the wheels when new for residue machining oil...very, very minute...but will cause this problem. You might want to clean the wheels first with ISO to make sure they clean. Remember, your fingers are a very good source of oil also, so you might want to use assembly gloves, like those used in electronics assembly lines if you have a skin oil problem.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fire216

i have converted most of my fleet over to metal wheels since the club i belong to allows only metal to run on the club layouts....i have seen a dramatic improvement of performance AND appearance.....they weather nice...and sound great.....i switched over to proto 2000 wheels.....a little pricey for about eight bucks for only three cars worth....but i did not have to "gauge" any when installing.....now....what to do with all the plastic ones....hmm....maybe a new industry that makes axles?"?

I sold all my old plastic wheels on ebay. Only got $8 for them but hey. its better than just letting them sit there.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevnbety

I have heard that metal wheels have less "rolling resistance", therefore making it easier for your locomotives to pull a train than the plastic wheels that come on most rail cars. Is this true? If so, how much does it REALLY help? Thanks for replys, Kevin

This is because harder things have less rolling resistance. For example. Get on a hill and roll a marble down. Then roll a cotton ball down. Not a very good example, but you get the picture. Plastic wheels make a lot of the junk that builds up on your rails as well. Its sort of like mopping the floor and then jumping around with muddy shoes. (me and my examples!!![:D][:)][8D]). With metal wheels you can pull longer trains and your track stays cleaner. Plus they make that cool clickity-clack noise.

[Don Gibson]

STUDENT'S?

[jacon12]

In the above answers, what is meant by "side frame" and 'axle points' (plastic or otherwise?
Thanks,
Jacon

[Don Gibson]

SAN ANTONIO ROSA

Metal wheelsets roll better because ...

They carry a premim price and most supplier's pay attention to little things like wheel guaging, non magnetic axles, wheel centering, etc. because they can afford to!. Some DO it more than others.

The sideframe material actually contributes over 50% of the 'rolling' effectiveness, with engineering plastic's such as Delrin leaving the other's behind. I'ts just EASIER to give credit to magical 'Metal wheels. WHO besides EB (and Lindberg) gives you pure Delrin? I keep one car with EB trucks as a 'standard' to judge other's by. I find KATO trucks and INTERMOUNTAIN cars to be a close enough second. What % is the Intermountain's WHEELS vs the ACETAL sideframes, I cannot say, but the combination sure ROLLS.

10 years ago I converted all my cars to JB nickel plated brass wheels. They improved the rolling 50% - 100% depending on the sideframes. My reward's were far greater in getting wheelset's that were so much in guage that I stopped having to check them, and as the black plating wore off shiny treads emerged. Having wheels that are 100% NMRA also cut down derailment's I' ve past the 300 mark and when you figure adding these benefits @ $ 3 - $ 4 per car (I do them one at a time) the cost is small and the joy's enormous.

If someone is happy with P2K, that's fine. I like MDC cars

My experience with P2K was poor Q.C.
Out of 12 wheelset's 10 had irregular plastic axle point's causing car 'wobble'.

You asked..

PS: n6nvr has got it right !. I detect some engineering .

[Anonymous]

Years ago MDC made some very slippery wheel sets acetal wheels and metal axles in acetal side frames. (Fox sideframes on some of the oldtimers) Probably the best rolling trucks I've ever seen. I've some older metal wheel, axle and sideframe trucks that never rolled well.

You're trying to reduce friction. The harder and smaller the contact points between the rail, wheel and axle bearing the less friction. Too long axles are going to be generating extra thrust friction (horizontal) against the side frames until one or the other wears down to fit right. A slightly too short axle will be fine if it stays in, in fact, since it reduces the contact area it is going to roll a little better. Performance may suffer as it can move back and forth in the side frame. The sideframe tuners can't hurt if used correctly.

The smoother the wheel the less likely it is to pick up crud. Ergo the sintered Athearn wheels not smooth picked up crud.

Could be some of the crud being deposited is plastic from wheels wearing to the railhead profile. Some of the plastic wheels will pick it up. Assuming the axles are metal aand the side frames plastic or metal, metal wheels being harder will have less rolling friction.

Does graphite help? Might help some on metal axle to metal side frame. Probably not on plastic side frames

[gmcrail]

Well, I'm going to go against the flow here, and recommend the Reboxx wheels, with the 0.088" wheel thickness. (And incidentally, RP-25 does not mandate a .110" wheel thickness. It only specifies the contour of the flange and fillet, and the degree of taper to the tread.). I recently picked up a couple of packages of these wheels at a local train show, and tried them out. They are unbelievably good looking, and I've had absolutely no derailments in which the wheel tread was at fault. My track is hardly flawless, either!

I had converted to P2K wheels almost a year ago, and was beginning to see some build-up of dirt on the treads. I can't verify that the new wheels will be better, but I can always hope. The biggest problem with the Reboxx wheels is that I'm finding grades where I never knew I had any![:D]

One tip: The "Exxact Socket Tool" (Reboxx) or the "Truck Tuner" (Micromark) is an essential factor in acheiving the absolute minimum rolling resistance. It cleans out and reshapes the bearing socket to a precise 60 degrees, while removing flash (and it's there, guys - you may need a good light and a strong magnifier to see it, but it's there).

Be sure to get the right axle length for the trucks you're using. Here's a link to a chart of the appropriate axle lengths to use for the Reboxx wheelsets.:
http://www.theoldandwearycarshop.com/Reboxxcharts.html

Have fun, and let's get rid of those over-fat wheel treads!

[AggroJones]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DeSchane

BoRockhard, I can't agree with your assement of LLP2K metal wheel sets! Upon what are you basing your opinion? In this case, metal is metal! Of all the metal wheels out there LLP2K's are the most realistic, with their silver treads, lettering and a choice of chilled or flat backed. Money wise they are the best bang for the buck. I have more than 75 cars with these wheels on them and my track and treads are clean!

In rebuttle to your point, all I have ever heard on this topic is that Kadee's wheels are crap magnets! I have said this, as this an un-substantaited rumor I heard from one person!

Actually.......

I too have noticed my Proto wheels tend to gather dirt more quickly than my Intermountains or Kadees. Much more quickly.

Mabey we got a bad batch of 'em or somthing. Bo, where did you buy yours?

And all metal isn't created equal. If you paid attention, you'd see IM wheels are heavier than P2K.

[jacon12]

I purchased some used cars with different types of trucks, mostly plastic axels and wheels. When I changed one of them over to metal and set it back on the track, off it went by itself where it didn't before.
I wonder where that hill came from?
Jacon

[Anonymous]

Brakie, You figured it out, I own millions in stock of Life Like! But really, although I have bought almost 100% LLP2K wheel sets, my only bias was being able to replace all my plastic wheels with metal ones for the least amount of money. I also have some Kadee metal wheel sets and my branchline cars and Intermountain came with metal sets which I see no reason to change.

Virginian, My only reason for using metal wheels is; 1). I am convinced both my track and wheels stay cleaner. 2). I like the more scale appearence of the silver treads than the black treads of plastic.
Although you appear to be flying in the face of conventional wisdom, your choice of staying with plastic is your business and certainly sound.

If any of you decide to change over to metal wheels sets, don't throw your plastic wheels away. I have sold these on Ebay and am always amazed at how much they sell for! One container of 100 sold for $10.00.

[twhite]

Guess I've been lucky--I've been converting with P2K's metal wheels and I haven't noticed either any wobbles OR dirt buildup on the treads (and with a garage railroad, dirt buildup can be a real pain!). I've also used Intermountain replacement wheels, and frankly can't see any difference betweem them and P2K's. What I HAVE seen is longer trains and a lot less 'bumpy' locomotive performance thanks to the metal wheels not depositing gunk like the plastic. I will say though, that I ran into the same problem as some of you others with early Athearn RTR cars--had to change the trucks out in order to get metal wheels. Luckily, the newer RTR's have good-quality metal wheels now, and I've had no problem. I keep a four-pack of P2k's on hand for newer kits--in fact, those Accurail cars just run like a dream with them!!
Tom [^][^]

[Anonymous]

There is a wheel charts on the REBOXX web site http://www.reboxx.com/wheelsets.htm that shows axle length. It's in a .pdf format so you need Adobe's Acrobat reader program to read it.

[Anonymous]

FYI, I checked my metal wheel packaging last night when I got home from work and incidentally they are Life-Like P2K metal wheel sets.

Trevor

[Virginian]

Although some will think it heresy, I do not think metal wheels make that much of a difference unless you have a problem with the plastic wheels on a piece. I have some plastic wheels on metal axles that roll as good as any all metal wheels I have. There is the sound, which some people really like, and the fact that some metal wheels rarely have any problems so they can be an excellent quick cure for the wobblies, etc. As to the dirt issue, plastic wheels will accumulate a build up much more so than metal wheels... but I am not sure this is a bad thing. Unless it is allowed to go untreated, I do not see this process spreading the dirt around on the track on my layout. In fact, it seems to clean the dirt off the rails. Of course, then you do need to clean the plastic wheels (I do it every two or three months), but I almost never have to touch the track other than a quick swipe every 8 or 10 months if I can remember to do it. No oil or any liquid touches my rails if I can help it, except laquer thinner when cleaning. If you are into the clipper oil school of thought, I would think that plastic wheels would be VERY bad actors on those layouts. I usually don't change them out unless I have problems (I got a 12 car pack from MDC and every single plastic wheelset had a flat spot - they replaced them) or I need to add electrical pickup. Rather than jumping into this head over dollars, I say make your own evaluations.

[BRAKIE]

Guys,Here is what I highly recommend..Try several brands of metal wheels till you find the one that suits your needs.You see that way you will know first hand the difference in brands and will not need different opinions that *may* be bias.

[Anonymous]

I have to say I haven't noticed any wobble. Are we talking off center wheels (run-out) or wheels which are not perpendicular to the axis of spin (wobble). If I have noticed any wobble, I attributed it to too short of axles in the truck frame or the fact that the axels are plastic and may have been bent or warped. Checking for this problem is pretty easy to do, by giving the wheel set a spin, when they are first set in the trucks. I also let the truck roll down a grade to see how they roll, and watch the car when it is first placed in a train to see how it tracks and if there are any peculiarities. I agree, turned wheels will be truer, however, this is a more expensive way to manufacture and I am happy with what I get for my money with the LLP2K wheel sets.

[Anonymous]

The next set of wheel sets that may need changing are on the locomotive. The Athearn locomotive sintered wheel sets are also good at collecting garp. NorthWest Short Line NWSL and JayBee have replacements sets.

[AntonioFP45]

Don,

Are you referring to the P2K wheelsets? Don't hold back, it's good to hear input about products. You're very observant and likely notice things that many guys ( me included) might overlook or not notice right away. It's good to know what "potential problems" to look for with a product. If there is a significant or performance difference between one product vs. another, I'll moan and groan and then pay the extra buck or two for the better product. I keep locomotives and cars for years, so I might as well get them right the first time.

Based on your above response, I just started checking my freight car fleet. So far, one P2K axle that's on an MDC hopper has a slight wobble when I spun it and looked at it with my eyes just a few inches from it. I'll post my results after I check all of my axles, as there are quite a few.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson
DANGER. I use graphite with WALTHERS Passeger cars because graphite conducts electricity but. It can short out the insulating ring on conventional wheels. Conventional wheelsets need one insulated wheel.

Thanks for bringing up that point Don. I never had that problem, but then I try not over do it with any lube. If there's that much graphite getting on the wheels, it's on the rails too and it would cause the driving wheels on a loco to slip.
I do think however a dusting of graphite couldn't carry more than a few milliamps. It would be like having resistor wheel sets. Is it enough to short out the interior lights?

Update:
I laid out a bit of graphite on a sheet of paper to measure the resistance and found resistance was infinity for a smuge of graphite with the test leads 1/16" apart. A resistance of 150,000 to 200,000 ohms was measured with a pile of graphite 1/32" high with the leads 1/16" apart. So, if there is enough graphite build up, it can cause a short of a sort.

[Anonymous]

I had the same problem with an Athearn HO RTR car - one of the CSX cabooses (great paintwork, pity about the wheels...). They were set too wide (gauge) and as they're a one-piece moulding it's impossible to adjust them. I retro-fitted some spare 33in wheels from BB cars that had had P2k metal wheelsets fitted, and it now runs a lot better.

One trick I have found for situations where the axle is a slightly tight fit in the bearings - fit the wheelset, then press the bearings together with one hand while rotating the axle with the other. After a few turns the pinpoint axle ends will have reshaped the plastic bearings and the car will roll freely - cheaper than the specialist tuning tool!

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomotive3

BE careful!
Not all HO metal wheel axles are the same length. That's due to different truck manufacturers

TRUE. Basically breaks into 2 categories: NMRA and NEM axles. One brand may be looser or tighter in another brand.

FACT VS FICTION

QUOTE: Metal wheels roll better right out of the box.

ALL wheels roll freely out of the box - try it. The friction comes when you add the sideframes.

QUOTE: For free rolling wheels on any kind of truck, check and clean out the journal box where the axle seats. There may be casting flash... Micro Mark sells a special tool called a "Truck Tune"

Flash is where two moulds meet - such as the outer edges. I have never found any inside a concave surface, however if the fit is tight, enlarging them reduces pressure.

QUOTE: Another tip for free rolling trucks is to use a powdered graphite lubricant on the journal box / axle point. Kaydee sells

DANGER. I use graphite with WALTHERS Passeger cars because graphite conducts electricity but. It can short out the insulating ring on conventional wheels. Conventional wheelsets need one insulated wheel.

METAL wheels were origially machined from brass to NMRA specs and performed better than plastic moulded ones where the main goal is low cost. With the superiority of machined wheels established, stamped metal wheels came onto the marketplace. They were 'metal' and went 'clckety clack' which was enough for some buyers.With lower cost goes Quality Control.

I bought 1 packet of the most popular brand (on this forum). I noticed my cars 'wobbled'. Closer inspection showed 10 of the 12 sets had 'wobble'. The man at the LHS said "all cars wobble"Putting in my 'machined' wheels removed all of it.
Conclusion: All metal wheels are not the same. and you get what you pay for.

[AntonioFP45]

Way to go, Trevor!

You've "indirectly" mentioned a side benefit that metal wheels offer: Less of a strain on locomotives! About 4 months ago I did a "break in" run with my P2K SCL GP9 on a friends layout. That one little Geep pulled a "chunker" of a train, especially considering that all of the freight cars had additional metal weights inside to bring them up to NMRA standards. But, each freight car also had P2K wheels. Smooth cruising all the way!

IMHO, had the cars still had their stock plastic wheels, I'm sure that the powerpack would have been feeling "warmer" to the touch as I pushed the Geep to full throttle several times!

[Anonymous]

Hi Kev,

I am considered a newbie to the hobby (6 months theoretical and 3 months hands-on) and I have built a bunch of Accurail kits, and they all came with plastic wheel sets. One day I purchased an Athearn Caboose kit which had metal wheels. I could not believe how smootly it ran in comparison to the plastic wheels![:0]
The difference was measurable. I mentioned this to my LHS guy and he said this was to be expected. He also told me that plastic wheels will contribute to a build up of dirt on the rails as well, and recommended that I replace all my wheels with metal wheel sets. I was sceptical of a money grab and delayed my decision about two weeks. Then i went ahead and did it and I have to say I don't regret the decision. My engines can pull more cars with metal wheels than plastic wheels. So my recommendation...go ahead and make the switch.

Trevor

[BRAKIE]

AntonioFP45,Also beware that some of the early RTR Athearn cars with metal wheels had the semi scale .088" flange.The cars now have the normal 110s(RP25s).I do not know how this came about but kinda wish Athearn kept the .088s.Of course these small semi scale flanges call for near perfect track work as I found out with one bad track joint I missed when I was laying track...[}:)][:D] Of course these cars showed me the error of my ways.[;)]

[AntonioFP45]

Guys,

For those of you that buy Athearn, be aware of early RTR cars. Some of you may remember my post back in Dec or January.

I bought a couple of "Early Run" Athearn RTR cars at a train show that came with plastic wheels. The P2K 33" wheels, to my shock, wouldn't fit. According to Don Gibson, some of the wheels sets and trucks on these cars were the plastic Europeon type that you find on the Rivorossi cars, which are non-NMRA standard. I looked at the wheel faces and saw that familiar "convex" shape.

Fortunately Athearn did the smart thing and started using metal wheels on later runs of the RTR freight cars.[:D]

I winded up purchasing P2K truck sets for these cars to solve the problem.

I did learn a valuable lesson that when purchasing anything at a train show, a lot of the items may have been sitting in store shelves for 10 years or more, so it's a good idea to check over an item thoroughly before paying for it. Let the buyer beware!

[Anonymous]

Just wanted to add this link to an article from Model Railroader about Using the Right Wheelsets

[Anonymous]

I find them to quite good. They also add weight, which is a plus in some cases.

Alvie.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevnbety

OK, you have all talked me into converting to metal wheels. My rolling stock is mostly Athearn "blue box" kits. Will the PK2 wheels fit those stock Athearn trucks, or will the trucks need to be replaced also? Thanks again, Kevin

I fitted 45+ Boxcars with P2K wheels no problems on a recent running session. I continue to ruthlessly convert the rest of my plstic wheels into metal. I do have two boxcars with plastic wheels on the test track right now but they are not considered part of the fleet.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DeSchane

Spacemouse, When I ran cars with plastic wheels, after a few months, the wheels actually built up a layer of garp. Eventually the garp got so thick the wheels would derail from lack of flanges. I just looked at 10-15 cras with LLP2K wheels on them and saw no garp on them what so ever. This is after several years of running with no maintenance of the wheel treads. I have clearly convinced mysel that LLP2K is as good as any metal wheel set on the market!

Thanks.