FORUM CLINIC: Building realistic scenery

[jfugate]

Sure, ask away and we'll see if we can get an answer.

That will keep this topic on the first few pages where people can find it.

Once this topic gets buried it might as well not exist -- so go for it.

[DavidGSmith]

Will you be discussing specific problems? Or should I post a new topic. I have been doing scenery for years and right now i am doing northern Ontario. Colour I can get but have run into a plaster problem.

[Anonymous]

Actually on the "other forum" if you use the New Post feature, it is similar to what you have going on here at the MR forums, it gives the last postings from your visit, the Active Topics is similar in that you cab say last 6 hours, 12 hours etc. I find it pretty easy to keep up with the posts, so if Joe's clinic is slow on posts, while it may drop, it is still reachable by going to the category it's under, plus they stickied it. It does take some getting used to.

I agree though Joe could post it at his site, but then how is anyone to know it's there if they don't know Joe and his Siskiyou Line?

I am waiting for the indepth lighting as it works with photography. The great indoor railfanning for those tired of high gas prices [;)]

[Anonymous]

Joe,

I totally dig your "clinics". However, I checked out that other forum, and it is so finely categorized that figuring out where I want to browse is almost like trying to figure out my income taxes! OK, not that bad, but there are just too many topics for my taste.

I almost think your clinics would "show" the best on your website. You'd present them in exactly the format you'd like. People would enjoy them, and people would definately link to them from the MR forums every time the topic of scenery comes up so people would see them / learn from them / become further interested in your site.

I know I would refer to them more often if they were on your site - instead of going, "ok, now where in those 13 pages of messages did Joe talk about ground cover...."

Just a random thought. Again, the material you're presenting is great.

[jfugate]

You know, after moving over to http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/ over the weekend when this forum was down, I've gotten used to the way things are organized into many more topics over there. Very handy and less chaotic.

They've created a special online forum clinic topic over there that's easy to find, so I think I'm moving over there with this and my other forum clinics as my primary haunt.

There's so much going on in this general discussion topic that I feel like I'm trying to carry on a conversation by hollering over the crowd in a crowded room buzzing with conversations. It's very draining to keep digging out these clinics now and then ... yet people keep asking questions that are covered in these FORUM CLINICS, so I know it would be nice if there was some place we didn't have to keep hollering over the din.

It's funny because I didn't think it was that bad here, until I went elsewhere this weekend and saw how much nicer it was to have the additional topic categories. If you select Active Topics over on this other forum, you get the equivalent of this forum's general discussion, so you get the best of both worlds. Very nice!

I'll not leave this forum, but I'll be hanging out over there more of the time, and posting updated versions of these clinics with new material: http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=64, as well as posting more new clincs over there as time permits.

[jfugate]

So this thread doesn't get lost ... bump!

Modeling corn's a tricky one. Bill Danaby did it using some etched brass cornstalks available from Europe in the June 2002 MR ... but beware, etched brass is pricey. It'll set you back a 100 bucks or more to model anything more than the tiniest of fields. Bill solved this problem by modeling the cornfield up against the backdrop, so the field only had to be a few stalks deep. Here's the reference from the magazine index:
http://index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=I&MAG=MR&MO=6&YR=2002&output=3&sort=A

Ken Patterson also demonstrated modeling a cornfield using some artificial grass, if I recall, in the August 1999 Mainline Modeler. Here's the reference from the magazine index:
http://index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=I&MAG=MM&MO=8&YR=1999&output=3&sort=A

[Anonymous]

Can we start again with this thread's adress/link at the top? ... might add the "snow" thread to that...
other useful scenery threads?
What happened to the operations thread?
How do you model corn???

[chateauricher]

bump

[chateauricher]

bump

[Anonymous]

On lighting...
it's possible to get "daylight" lamps and tubes... these not only render better colour but are easier on the eyes.
this includes your work place... if it's very bright and you all get headaches get the tubes switched to daylight white at the next changeover. It also helps to have at least one tungsten filament somewhere in the room... it breaks up the frequency of the fluorescent light and helps your eyes.
Daylight tubes cost more but last longer... in my experience.

[hminky]

I have used the twisty florescents in commercial reflectors with baffles for directional lighting to achieve the central California sunny look



I am still tweaking it on my 4x8, which is a test bed for my dream layout. I have a web article on my experiments at::

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/4x8/lighting/

Just a thought
Harold

[Anonymous]

You're right!
Have rewritten and relocated.
Glad my posts are 'elpful
Even more glad it wasn't my "Rrs" that jammed.

[selector]

You mean 'elpful', don't you? [:o)]

[jfugate]

Hmmm ...

David, looks like you meant to post this to the Forum Clinic on operations, since this post doesnt make a lot of sense here. And it looks like your letter H was sticking, which makes this post somewhat difficult to read at best. [swg]

As the one who made this post, you should easily be able to delete this off topic and somewhat difficult to read post.

Hope you get your H key working again, your posts (when they are in the right topic <wink>) are *very* helpful.

[Anonymous]

OOPS! THIS BELONGED IN THE REALISTIC OPERATION FORUM...

[electrolove]

BUMP is the magic word [:D]

[chateauricher]

back to the top ...

note to Bergie -- please sticky this !!!

[jfugate]

Bob:

Lighting is very important, yes. One good tip is that whatever lighting you use for your layout, you should also use at your workbench. You avoid nasty color shift surprises that way.

Colors can shift dramatically between outdoors, and indoor florescent lights, and indoor tungsten lights. Florescents are getting a lot tougher because there are now cool florescents, warm florescents, greenhouse florescents, fishtank florescents, daylight florescents, and full-spectrum florescents.

Cool florescents ("shop lights") have a limited spectrum and have been known to even affect behavior in office environments where people have to work under this lighting for long periods. They give the sick green color to photos that is well known by photographers. Since they have a significant green element to their spectrum, they cause certain greens to shift and look quite different than under other kinds of light.

Some people (Tony Koester comes to mind) prefer the "cool mountain" look of the cool florescents, but I find them depressing. I prefer the warm sunshine look of tungstens, and since I model July and August scenery on my layout, the warm yellow look of the tungsten light looks perfect to me and feels just like a warm summer day in Southern Oregon (where I grew up).

Then you get into technical problems around lighting like the way tungsten bulbs run hot and heat up a room more than the same lumens of florescent lights. And while cool florescents are very cheap, the other florescent bulbs cost quite a bit more, with daylight florescents being especially costly.

On my Siskiyou Line, I use low wattage tungstens (15W and 25W) which keeps the heat down, and makes using tungsten lights practical. You can get cheap dimmers for tungsten lights, which is another advantage of them over florescents.

I take a glossy color photo of prototype scenery with colors I want to match, and match the colors under the layout lights to the colors in the photo. I suspect that's one reason people tell me my layout photos look like they were taken outdoors, like this one:


Larger image: http://mymemoirs.net/model-trains/forum/phpBB2/images/trains/LocoHeadlights.jpg

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

A few more comments on proper color ...

When we get into discussing the how-to side of doing model scenery, you will notice I use techniques that introduce subtle color variations into the scenery.

For example, indoor lighting is far dimmer than outdoor sunlight, so I use coloring tricks to make the indoor lighting look more like sunlight. When I do a decidous tree, once it is all done, I take a can of pale yellow spray paint and lightly mist the tree from above. This causes the parts of the tree that face UP to have a hint of yellow green as compared to a darker green on the parts of the tree that face DOWN.

This trick simulates sunlight and makes the model tree that's under dim indoor lighting look a lot more like it's outside under sunlight. It's subtle tricks like this that really make your scenery "pop" and look real.

Joe, I really like the trick of the yellow highlighting will have to use it. The main reason for this response is color variations using various lighting. I found it necessary to scenic under the same lighting that will be the permanant lighting of the layout or scene. Have you ever had any problems with colors, mainly greens under various types of light?
One section of my club layout was sceniced using the house lights, due to that the track lighting was not completed. The house fluorecent lights are not full spectrum by any means, once the halogen track lights lit the area the greens were way off. Under the house fluorecents way too much bright green was used for a final look of rural New England. The entire area had to be mutted by adding burnt and yellow grass.
I don't know if you planned on discussing lighting vs proper colors as well in this portion of your fabulous scenery clinic.
Keep up the great work, always enjoy visiting you site.
Bob K.

[jfugate]

Agreed ... a bump is in order.

[chateauricher]

Time this one re-surfaced.

[jfugate]

Been a lot of scenery questions lately, so I think this forum clinic could use a bump ...

[electrolove]

JSoule and jfugate:

Very interesting discussion, this kind of questions and answers is just what I need, thanks to both of you.

[jfugate]

JS:

I get a plant mister spray bottle in the Walmart garden supply area. Something like this (although this one is from an office supply store online):


http://www.discountofficesupplies.com/ce/shop/ui

Get the kind with the trigger pump and an adjustable spray tip. Works great for generating a fine water mist once you have it adjusted right.

As to glue, I never spray the stuff. I mix a thin 3:1 white glue mixture in an old Elmer's glue bottle, and I dribble it on after wetting an area with wet water (water with a few drops of dish soap in it to break the surface tension).

But I don't use white glue very much -- haven't found much of a need outside of ballasting or the occasional loose rock/talus slope. The plaster dirt sets up hard on it's own, and for most other things, like bushes, trees, and grass, I glue all that in place with hot glue.

I have also done sweatshirt grass, and used contact cement for that ... but oh boy, contact cement has strong fumes, so I'll let the layout room air out several hours after using it ... which isn't often.

Hope that answers your questions!

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Joe. Sounds like I have been on the right track. Two other quick questions: (1) what do you find is the best mister? I have tried several and none are great. I have tried Woodland Scenics. I have tried pumps that I found at the container store. I have tried the bigger dispensers for Windex and similar (the kind you squeeze a trigger). The best I have tried is the old Windex bottle with the nozzle you push down. (2) Previous question was for wet water. What about mister for scenic cement, diuted white glue, etc for foam landscaping? Best so far is the same old Windex bottle, but even when I clean it thoroughly after each evening's use, it spurts globs from time to time and is not as smooth and "misty" as I would like. I want something like what I get out of my airbrush, I guess. Maybe that is wanting too much.

Thanks again.

John

[jfugate]

JS:

All of your experiences are similar to mine.

Several thin layers of dirt are better than one thick layer, since you can easily dampen the layer well and the plaster will set up nicely, fixing the dirt in place.

Wetting the powder darkens it and once it dries, it lightens again. If you don't get the tempera mixed in well with the plaster, you can get dark spots in the dirt. Not a biggie, I just apply another layer over the dark spot, mist it with some water, and let it set up.

I first mist the area I want to cover with the powder with water and apply the dirt with a tea strainer, dusting it on lightly by tapping the handle with my finger. Then I mist on some more water until it darkens up, which means I've dampened it thoroughly.

You can do other things, like totally soak the powder until it's sloppy wet (instead of merely damp), and when it dries it will tend to crack and look like mud that has been baked dry. On slopes, you can soak it with water such that little rivelets run down the slope, creating some natural erosion effect.

If you put it on too thick, it's hard to dampen it thoroughly and the middle will remain dusty and loose, causing the whole application to come off later in chuncks and create a real mess. I try to put down just enough to cover things (think of white powdered sugar on donuts), but not have any thickness buildup. I'll often come back and do a second application just to make sure I've gotten good coverage.

[Anonymous]

Okay, Joe, quick question, the answer to which may be of interest to others following this forum.

I have been trying your dirt recipies. Observation: they darken when wet, but when they dry, they are ALMOST the same as before wetting. Your experience too? My real question: how thick do you lay it on? I tried several thin layers and that seemed to work pretty well. On one of the layers, I got some dark brown spots. I think it was brown Tempera paint that had not been mixed real well with everything else, although I would tell you it looked mixed. I supposed it could also have been the water (maybe a few bigger drops and less mist than usual). Anyway, I for one would appreciate a little elaboration on your technique. Project now is to get dirt down where I will be placing dirt road to stock tank (watering hole for cattle). Thanks in advance.

John

[jfugate]

Bump ...

[electrolove]

Joe:

Thanks a lot for the item numbers. That makes it a lot easier for me.

Looking forward to volume 4 of your video series. That is a 'must have'.

Thanks again.

[jfugate]

electro:

Here's the numbers:
F51 - Foliage - Light Green (60 sq. in. bag)
F52 - Foliage - Medium Green (60 sq. in. bag)
F53 - Foliage - Dark Green (60 sq. in. bag)

I make heavy use of this foliage material, especially F51 and F52. I use the light green the most, followed closely by medium green. Then dark green usage follows as a distant third.

I also have some:
F54 - Foliage - Conifer Green (60 sq. in. bag)
F55 - Foliage - Early Fall Mix (60 sq. in. bag)
F56 - Foliage - Late Fall Mix (60 sq. in. bag)

... but I don't use it much ... maybe something here and there once in a blue moon.

Of course, I'll give lots of juicey scenery construction details (materials, step-by-step demos, etc) in volume 4 of my video series, due out by the holidays this fall.