FORUM CLINIC: Building realistic scenery

[jacon12]

As the new 'kid' on the block this clinic is invaluable to me. Thanks, I appreciate it!
Jarrell

[Anonymous]

Masking tape over everything - NICE!!! It's the little things like this that make this message board so cool! That is a good idea. You could really see what you've got before you apply plaster, and I'm sure it makes a much smoother form than paper towels dipped in plaster right on top of the cardboard.

When I start my next layout, I was thinking about using styrofoam. The problem I see is what you mentioned Joe - styrofoam seems to be only a "subtraction" based material. Adding a little bit here and there is probably quite difficult. Adding with cardboard & masking tape would be much easier.

Thanks, and keep 'em coming?

[jacon12]

Joe,
I understand and like the masking tape and plaster method for hills, mountains and valleys, but what do you do in those areas such as towns or yards where you need perfectly flat areas for buildings and the like?
Jarrell

[egmurphy]

Joe,

Let me also thank you for this forum thread. I'm just starting the first applications of ground cover on my layout, so this is coming at a great time for me.

Thanks again,

Ed

[Anonymous]

Joe, This is one of the best uses of this forum that I have seen so far! It is inter-active and your methods appear sound. I say "appear", as I haven't used the tape, plaster, portland cement and vermiculite ideas but they sound interesting. I have a smaller layout and used both paper towels dipped in soupy hydrocal and Woodland Scenics' plaster cloth. I am hooked on Woodland Scenic's plaster cloth, now. It is fast, clean and instantainously stopable at any point. It might be too costly for a real large layout, however! Your adding vermiculite to the mix reminds me of Eric Brooman's system where he adds clay to his plaster mix. It slows the cure and allows easier carving of rock work!

I missed the operation thread you had going. Is one of your DVDs going to be on operation? This is my week point!

Thanks for the good work! It beats the loco polls hands down!

[jfugate]

DeSchane:

I agree that this forum clinic thing is a better use of the forum than yet another loco poll ... [sigh]

Yes, video volume 5 will cover operations. I plan to show how to get started in prototype-based operations by easing into it, and show lots of footage from an actual op session so you can attend a Siskiyou Line op session via your TV and DVD player. I'll be discussing how to setup a waybill car routing system, and even some DCC loco programming tricks to enhance operations for things like helpers and such.

The Woodland Scenics plaster cloth does sound very convenient.

Jarrell: Flat areas?
I use 1/2" plaster wallboard backed by 1/2" plywood. The plaster wallboard is a lot cheaper than homasote and is more dimensionally stable in the presence of humidity and moisture (like from scenery construction) than homasote. At the price of homasote these days, I have *no* use for it, and I think it's vastly over rated. My opinion, of course.

You can also carve things like small ditches and so on in plaster wall board, although not as easily as with homasote. As long as the thing you need to carve is a short run and fairly shallow, the wallboard is fine. For the price, I can easily live with it not being quite as easy to carve on as homasote.

[Anonymous]

I'm modelling Montana in way off Australia and have been aided by Google "Image" searches from the net .It is amazing what comes up if you only enter Montana Railroad. I hope that by this means and least I get the basic textures right and can backdrop those wonderful Rockies

[jacon12]

Joe said:

QUOTE: I use 1/2" plaster wallboard backed by 1/2" plywood

Plaster wallboard, is that the same thing as drywall or what I grew up calling sheetrock?
Thanks Joe,
Jarrell

[n2mopac]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan

When I start my next layout, I was thinking about using styrofoam. The problem I see is what you mentioned Joe - styrofoam seems to be only a "subtraction" based material. Adding a little bit here and there is probably quite difficult. Adding with cardboard & masking tape would be much easier.

I use both foam and plaster over cardboard. I like both methods for different applications. I often paint plaster over the foam much like Joe describes above. The fact is if I cul away a little too much foam or change my mind, all I have to do is glue another scrap in place, sand it into shape with a rasp, and paint over it with some plaster. I have great results this way.

I have always used plaster soaked paper towels on my cardboard lattice. Joe, your method of masking tape sound really good. The paper toweld soak a lot of moisture out of your bucked of plaster, making your working time really short. Plus, they hold so much plaster that they become heavy and can weigh your lattice down if it is not supported really well. I am in the scenic form stage of my new Saginaw and Western layout (BNSF's Wichita Falls sub) and I am going to give this method a try. Thanks again for another in a long line of great tips.

Let me also say, Joe, that I am a big fan of creating realistic operating rules to guide my operaters in our sessions. Your op's rules on your website have been one immensely valuable resourse for me in this area. Thanks again.

Ron

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

Joe said:

QUOTE: I use 1/2" plaster wallboard backed by 1/2" plywood

Plaster wallboard, is that the same thing as drywall or what I grew up calling sheetrock?
Thanks Joe,
Jarrell

Yep, same stuff. Sheetrock, I call it.

[jfugate]

A comment on my plaster mix formula:

Varying the amount of portland cement affects the setting time of the mix. If you add slightly more cement, the mix will set up quicker. If you add slighly less cement, the mix will set up slower.

So if the mix sets up too quickly for you, reduce the amount of portland cement slightly until you get a working time you like.

[cwclark]

A note about plaster set up time...if you add 2 tablespoons of vinegar to the plaster it won't set up as fast.... another tip is to have a very clean bowl when you preform the mix...if old plaster from the last pour is still in the bowl when you mix a new batch, the new batch of plaster will set up way too quickly......Chuck

[underworld]

I've got to say whenever possible for rock, I like to use real rock. The color can be changed with paint washes if you want. For plants I like to use real miniature plants. Many nurseries have starter bonsai trees, for as little as
$4-5.

underworld

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[jfugate]

Underworld:

Great idea for the larger scales, but I doubt that will work very well for smaller scales like N. Plus you have to take care of the plants, and for a large layout, that could turn into a major garden tending project!

The other thing is not all plants come in miniature, like grass.

As to real rocks, they can look great as to texture, but the color can be a problem as you suggest. Not only may the color not be right for what you are modeling, the color of things changes under our indoor lighting. You need to change the color slightly and add some subtle color variations to model rocks and vegetation under artificial light for it to truly look scaled down correctly.

But your suggestion should work great in G scale, especially outdoors!

[SpaceMouse]

Somehow I can't picture doing a mountain layout out of rocks. I have a fountain in my store that has fewer rocks than what it would take build say an 18" mountain 3 feet long. It takes 3-4 guys to move it--and I mean move it like an inch.

1x4 construction cannot take that kind of weight, and I would venture to say that even the plaster method should have benchwork reinforced a lot better than a foam layout.

[jfugate]

SpaceMouse:

You raise a very good point.

Yes, the setup and maintenance headaches from using "real" scenery materials often makes their use not very practical. Real rocks are heavy, real miniature trees need tending or they'll die, and real water attracts bugs and gets stagnant. For that matter, real trees can attract bugs too.

Real vegetation and real water also don't scale down very well. And real water can leak all over things, making a *REAL MESS*. [:D]

[jfugate]

It's true that plaster scenery weighs more than foam scenery, but my vermiculite plaster mix is suprisingly lightweight.

That's one reason why I use it. It's lighter than ordinary plaster scenery per square foot.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Underworld:

Great idea for the larger scales, but I doubt that will work very well for smaller scales like N. Plus you have to take care of the plants, and for a large layout, that could turn into a major garden tending project!

The other thing is not all plants come in miniature, like grass.

As to real rocks, they can look great as to texture, but the color can be a problem as you suggest. Not only may the color not be right for what you are modeling, the color of things changes under our indoor lighting. You need to change the color slightly and add some subtle color variations to model rocks and vegetation under artificial light for it to truly look scaled down correctly.

But your suggestion should work great in G scale, especially outdoors!

Yep outdoor RR's uses real rock for mountains, real timbers and concrete for bridges and structures, real crushed gravel ballast and have to deal with real issues water washouts, slides, giant Godzilla sized beasts resembling dogs and birds, etc.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith



Yep outdoor RR's uses real rock for mountains, real timbers and concrete for bridges and structures, real crushed gravel ballast and have to deal with real issues water washouts, slides, giant Godzilla sized beasts resembling dogs and birds, etc.

You mean like putting in a Chihuahua and call it a Great Dane.

Sorry I couldn't help it.[:o)]

[Anonymous]

Joe, you talk about scaling color for indoor use. I completely understand that. Here's my question, though...

What if you plan on being able to take a module, diorama, or even an entire layout outside for photography.... does this make the colors too light, or can this be compensated for with exposure tricks?

Thanks for these great clinics!

Rob

[jacon12]

Does anyone have the last clinic on Designing bookmarked and could post a link to it [?]
Thanks,
Jarrell

[jfugate]

Rob:

It's far easier to darken an image than it is to lighten it ... to a point. These days with digital image manipulation you can do almost anything.

As you suggest, you could slightly underexpose the image, and then increase the saturation digitally. That ought to do it.

The other thing to keep in mind is that light and shadow does not scale down completely, so the extra enhancements done to add color variation (using a dark wash on rocks to bring out cracks and texture, drybrushing rocks with white to add relief, accenting tree foliage with light yellow from above to add a sunny glow to them, and so on) are also because the texture doesn't show up as well on a model.

The only problem can be that your "enhancement techniques" may look fine under dim indoor lighting but look too stark under bright sunlight. So if you're planning to take the module outdoors, keep your enhancements on the subtle side.

[jfugate]

TOPIC THIS POST: From blue painted board to sky backdrop

Before I build any scenery, I install and paint the sky backdrop a basic light sky blue. I don't want this blue too light, because one of the tricks that really enhances a sky backdrop and adds "snap" to model scenery is a realistic sky backdrop.

There are several materials to use for a sky backdrop, from masonite hardboard, to the backside of vinyl linoleum, to sheet aluminum roof flashing, to large sheets of styrene. My purpose here is not to get into all the different materials and ways to install a backdrop.

I use the backside of vinyl linoleum along the walls (a stiff backing already present) and I use masonite hardboard in the middle of the room where the backdrop needs to be freestanding and stiff on it's own. Vinyl linoleum is not stiff, so it doesn't work for benchwork in the middle of the room where the backdrop needs to be freestanding.

I like the back of vinyl linoleum because you can get long runs of it and need fewer seams. I just went to a flooring store and asked them if they had any flooring scraps 2-3 feet wide they would sell me. First, they wanted to know why I needed such narrow stuff. Once I told them I was using it backwards for smooth sky backdrops on a model display, they grinned, and sold me all I wanted at $5 a roll.

I tacked the vinyl to the wall backside out with small roofing nails and painted it a light sky blue. For masonite, I mounted it, patched the seams with white painters caulk (I like it because it's flexible) and smoothed the caulk with a wet sponge, and painted it a light sky blue.

Somewhere around the time you're ready to do your rough scenery terrain, it's time to think about doing more to finish your sky backdrop.

I'll pencil in the terrain contour on the backdrop before I install the cardboard strips, and then get out my airbrush and fade the horizon area on the backdrop with flat white. I use ModelFlex flat white, because it's ready to airbrush right out of the bottle.

Imagine a flat horizontal horizon line on the lower part of your backdrop, as if you were looking at the ocean. The all along that line where your penciled terrain contour drops down, fade the horizon from blue to almost white. Feather the white into the blue so that there's no stark white line on the backdrop. As you do this, follow your imaginary "ocean horizon", do not follow your penciled terrain contours. The white fading should be about the same distance down on your backdrop everywhere, not up and down with the terrain lines.

Here's a sample photo from my Siskiyou Line to show how effective the white fading can be. Notice how the white horizon fading creates a realistic sense of "vast outside sky" to the confines of my indoor layout.



I also mix some light blue gray and light blue green and paint basic mountains on my backdrop. Nothing fancy for the most part, because we want the layout scenery to get the attention, not the backdrop.

One trick to get good colors for backdrop mountains is to mix up a color that looks good to your for trees or rock mountains, then mix in some of your sky blue paint you used on your backdrop. This will fade the color of your backdrop mountains and make them look like they really belong. The more blue you add, the farther back your mountains will appear to be. Experiment with a scrap of blue painted board until it looks good to you.

Next, we'll look at how to get realistic looking track.

NEXT TOPIC: Ballasting and weathering track

[Anonymous]

More GREAT ideas, Joe. Thanks one more time.

John
Austin, Texas

[cwclark]

Joe has an excellent backdrop but doesn't put clouds in...I like clouds so here's how i do them...take about nine or ten sheets of cardstock (the brown backing you can get from office form bundles or even thin cardboard will work 8" x 11" will work fine)..next with a pencil, i'll draw different cloud shapes on all 9 or 10 sheets of the cardstock so that they all aren't uniform in appearance.....make three of them small clouds, three of them medium size clouds and the other three or four large clouds...take a hobby knife and carefully cut out the cloud patterns from each sheet of cardstock....now get two cans of spray paint...one flat light gray and the other flat white....(Be sure there is plenty of ventilation also) now, from the lower portion of the backdrop horizon and about 6 -8" above the benchwork , place one of the small cloud cardstock patterns against the backdrop and lightly spray the bottom section of the pattern with the light gray paint, then take the white spray paint and fill in the rest of the pattern...the secret is to use very little paint... let some of the blue from the backdrop seep through the white of the cloud..it will make it look fluffy and three dimentional if you don't over spray the cloud pattern stencil with too much paint.. paint all the small clouds close to the horizon and as you move up the backdrop use the larger clouds as you go ...the small clouds on the horizon and the larger clouds towards the top of the backdrop will give the backdrop good depth preception...don't be afraid to overlap the clouds either..overlapping the clouds also adds to the depth preseption of the backdrop...continue in this manner and rotate through the different cloud pattern stencils as you go until your done...here is a picture of the backdrop after I finished painting the clouds... http://community.webshots.com/photo/137793353/185724456cKXulQ Chuck

[underworld]

Yeah, real trees really aren't an option in N scale or smaller. But I have used them in HO. They are definately not for everyone.....but they do look cool. When I used them an an HO layout, I used real trees in the foreground
.........background were mix of different manufacturers and some home made.

underworld

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[lupo]

this topic does not belong on page 3

[Anonymous]

This kind of topic is why I joined this forum. Fairly new to the hobby and I love a good topic with insight and ideas that will help me get my first layout off the ground.

Thanks for all the tips and please don't stop.

Bowser [bow]

[jfugate]

Bowser:

Glad to hear you find this information to be of use.

Yes, this kind of topic is what I think the forum needs more of. I have this secret wi***hat maybe others would pick up on the approach and do some thing similar.

We'll see, aye?

[lupo]

Thanks for all the info ! [tup]

Look forward to the next topic :

Ballasting and weathering track