Train kills man painting graffiti on boxcar

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

QUOTE: Originally posted by gmcrail
["The only capital crime in nature is stupidity. The punishment is always death, and the sentence is always carried out swiftly and without mercy" -- Robert A. Heinlein

Which novel is that from?

I think it's from the notebooks of Lazarus Long, from "Time Enough for Love." An excellent source of ponderables from a heavy thinker.

I just hope some of the folks posting above about their concern for the state of our souls don't get nosebleeds from standing on their high horses...I do have human concern for them, after all.

personal revelation #2: I used to be (and to an extent still am) pretty involved with the punk scene. For a while, about ten years ago, train-hopping was a fad for punk kids as a way to get around the country. Now, some of my friends did this successfully for years and have great stories to tell. But one of my friends who did this was a very sweet teenage girl who joined up with a crew of kids hopping a freight to Seattle, and wasn't quite fast enough to get onto a moving boxcar.

And, to make a long story short, the car cut both her feet off.

After the odds started catching up with these kids, and a few ended up maimed or dead, either due to angry FTRA railroad bums murdering these mostly pacifist kids or the inevitable accidents that occur when dealing with trains, train-hopping passed from fashion.

So, to reiterate, not only do I know what it's like to be a vandal, I know what it's like to have friends critically injured by freight trains. But I still think that kid was stupid.

And no, I don't drive without my seatbelt, and if I did ride a motorcycle I'd wear a helmet. And I don't stand on the tracks when I railfan--I take Part 214 railroad safety training every year, and think I have an idea of what to do and not do to avoid getting hit by a train. I am way past the age where I thought I was invincible and invulnerable. The survival rate of life eventually drops to 0%--this is inevitable--but I see no need to lessen my odds through carelessness.

And as far as what happens afterwards--I live my life by example, and have no problem with my level of compassion for other people. If a deity decided that I am not worthwhile because I call stupid behavior stupid, that is that deity's problem.

And if "Heaven" is filled with people who would like to stand and gloat while other people are being judged, then I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend eternity with them.

[davekelly]

What ever happened to Rick Selby?

[Anonymous]

It seems like there's a couple things going on here. Some people are mad at the guy for tagging. Some think he's stupid for being on the tracks.

We've had people on this forum admit to something similar to tagging as well as being on the tracks.

Last night I was checking out railimages.com. Guess what I saw - pictures people took while on the tracks. (read my personal experience above, and you'll see why this horrifies me, just looking at the photos makes me kringe).

This tagger did something generally considered mean and disrespectful, as well as something generally considered stupid. I think the two are combining to make it seem excusable make his death seem deserved or something to some people. I can understand that happening. I'd just like to urge everyone to reconsider - no harm, no foul.

I know good people who've done both (disrespectful as well as stupid things). If I was standing face to face with anyone on this forum, I doubt you'd wish me dead because I made a stupid decision involving train tracks. If you've never done anything stupid, I'd be quite impressed.

Similarly, I wouldn't call our fellow modeler who told his vandalism/arrest story above a loser for having done something stupid involving a rock and a window when he was a kid. Instead, I'd admire him for telling the story of how he learned from the mistake.

Put the two of us together, and you have the dead guy. I mean this with all due respect to the other model railroader (not to mention I totally dig your modelling, and have many of the same modeling interests!!!).

I'm glad I'm not dead. I also know I'm no better than the dead guy.

I feel like an idiot sitting in an office at work with professionals telling my train encounter story - they normally look at me in disbelief, because I'm such a logical person. But I can also see them realizing how dangerous trains are, and I can tell they're realizing it for the first time.

But I only tell the story because I know since I made such a poor decision, other intelligent people could do the same.

We're all train geeks on this forum. We think we're so cool because we know so much about trains. Not everyone does, and I don't think we should laugh at them for dying because of that.


P.S. here's one from memory - a picture in MR of the old student fare guy sitting on the railroad tracks with his HO engines. (Rick, if you're out there reading this, PLEASE don't consider this a jab, just an example of how the tracks often don't seem as dangerous as they are).

I know I've gone on for too long here, but my first grade teacher's son was killed walking on the tracks. I felt like I disrespected her after my incident on the tracks. (I'm here hoping I've convinced others to stay off the tracks).

OK - now I'm going on way too long - just today, a truck in front of me pulled onto the tracks at a red light, where he was actually trapped by other cars, and didn't even think twice about it. I was frankly terrified. I'm glad they're not dead.

Everyone makes mistakes. Today none of my mistakes killed me. Hopefully tomorrow will go as well. I wi***he same for all of you.

I've enjoyed this discussion. Now should my upcoming layout be DC or DCC?

[jwar]

I doubt very seriously that everone of us on this forum has done somthing really stupid in our lifetime, if not then perhaps your pulling our leg a bit. The original post was info not a blame game and everone is getting a bit carried away from what this forun is all about...model railroading ...and a forum of some great people with the same desire of a hobby. I respect all of your openions however I reserve the right to keep mine. Of which few of you would care to hear anyhow...LOL. See you guys out on the modeling forum....

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Catt

I'd like to be at a safe distance when the coldhearted excuses for human beings that I see posting in this thread have to explain to God how they lived their lives.

I simply can not comprehend how any human can be so cold about the loss of another human's life.You guys make me wonder what I'm doing in this hobby.[:(]

REV. CATT:

One always feels simpathy for unnecessary or accidental loss of life, however it is impossible to save people from themselves. A person so cavalier as to trespass where there are posted signs - intent on defacing someone's property - to the point of getting hit by an oncoming train ranks somewhere between stupid - to improving the human Gene pool. How about pitchig a tent on the Tarmak of a busy airport?.

As I said beore: it is impossible to save people from themselves
.
As for your above appraisal of your fellow man in the hobby - May I concurr with your assesment 'what you are doing in it'?

Look at all the stupid things people do in cars.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Catt

I'd like to be at a safe distance when the coldhearted excuses for human beings that I see posting in this thread have to explain to God how they lived their lives.

I simply can not comprehend how any human can be so cold about the loss of another human's life.You guys make me wonder what I'm doing in this hobby.[:(]

I can. Matthew 18:26-35.

These guys feel so superior now, but then I'll bet some of them ride motorcycles without helmets or protective clothing, gab incessantly on cell phones while driving, don't wear seat belts.......

You get the picture.

Andre

[bruce22]

To Catt: I am in agreement with you, how crass and unforgiving some individuals can be. Thankfully most modelers I have met are people that I feel good to be around.

[Catt]

I'd like to be at a safe distance when the coldhearted excuses for human beings that I see posting in this thread have to explain to God how they lived their lives.

I simply can not comprehend how any human can be so cold about the loss of another human's life.You guys make me wonder what I'm doing in this hobby.[:(]

[Don Gibson]

"Train kills man painting graffiti on boxcar"

YES, Virginia - There is a Santa Claus.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gmcrail

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

Natural selection at work!

"The only capital crime in nature is stupidity. The punishment is always death, and the sentence is always carried out swiftly and without mercy" -- Robert A. Heinlein

Which novel is that from?

[darkstar974]

If i caught somebody spraypainting my house or car I think i would go toe to toe with them and ask questions later lol

[tatans]

Let us hear from the forgivers, when someone sprays graffitti on their house and car and local school and church, what would the response be then? sadness or no response at all???

[gmcrail]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

Natural selection at work!

"The only capital crime in nature is stupidity. The punishment is always death, and the sentence is always carried out swiftly and without mercy" -- Robert A. Heinlein

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

No, I really don't have a lot of sympathy. If this particular man's life was all that worth living, he probably would have had something better to do than vandalize a railroad car.

In times before the age when Americans decided we had to make the entire planet baby-safe, people were less insulated from the negative effects of their bad choices. Life was, and frankly, still is, dangerous, and trains are inherently dangerous objects. People get killed in their proximity due to accident or carelessness, and I cannot fathom why anyone would think that they are somehow immune to this danger.

In India, trains are so crowded that commuters sit on the roof or hang outside of the cars via the windows. A few fall off and die every single day. That's a tragedy--they are just folks trying to get to work, who even paid for their tickets. A dozen or so folks died on the Metra last week for the same reason--and that's a tragedy too. But is the Darwin Award candidate who got run over by a freight train because he was standing on the tracks with his cellphone on one ear and his finger in the other ear to block out the sound of the approaching train's horn a tragedy? Or is it Darwin at work?

In the natural world, animals die all the time. But one animal's tragedy is another's success--a deer brought down by wolves is a tragedy to the deer, a triumph to the wolves. A tagger killed by his stupidity is a tragedy to the tagger's family, and a triumph to a society where stupidity is not rewarded.

I don't buy the whole "What if he was the next Mother Theresa?" argument at all--statistically speaking, the guy was just as likely to be the next Josef Stalin. I figure that of the folks who die due to accident, stupidity and other causes, the lost Stalins and lost Mother Theresas are probably going to be about equal, maintaining a balance of sorts.

I totally agree, Jetrock. I have little sympathy for this idiot, too. How could he not hear the train coming? I know sometimes you can't really hear them until they're quite close, but couldn't he feel the ground shaking? Guess not.

It was his fault, his parents better not go and sure the railroad.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan

I should add, my thinking at the time was along the lines of, "A train is very loud... I'll hear it coming miles away".

Wrong!!! They can be dead silent.

Another time (after the incident above), I was standing near (mind you, never very close to - never again, ever) the train tracks. An Amtrack train suddenly wizzed right in front of me.

I actually heard a vibration in the tracks before I even heard the train. Freaked me out. I was in no danger here, but it was still freaky how easily the train could sneak up on someone.

This is a particularly true statement especially when its a push-pull train with the cab-car end leading....they are freaky silent.

[trainboyH16-44]

I think that he got more than he deserved, and it would have been much better if he had just been 'winged' by the train.(not a seriuos injury) I hope that this shows other graffiti artists that trains are dangerous things to be around. "Any time is train time" as the CPR says.
I can't help but think back to the "Graffiti, Art or vandalism" discussion.
Matthew

[Anonymous]

I should add, my thinking at the time was along the lines of, "A train is very loud... I'll hear it coming miles away".

Wrong!!! They can be dead silent.

Another time (after the incident above), I was standing near (mind you, never very close to - never again, ever) the train tracks. An Amtrack train suddenly wizzed right in front of me.

I actually heard a vibration in the tracks before I even heard the train. Freaked me out. I was in no danger here, but it was still freaky how easily the train could sneak up on someone.

[Anonymous]

Alright,

Time to tell my story.

I'm a mechanical engineer. I'm a good citizen. I've never attempted any kind of vandalism.

I did cross a train bridge on my bike once. That, ladies and gentlemen, was the dumbest thing I've ever done in my entire life.

I can do calculus. I own property. I pay taxes. I open the door for old ladies. I'm not a menace to society. But I crossed that stupid bridge like a moron.

As I was crossing, I was beginning to realize how stupid it was. My legs started shaking. Then I heard the worst sound in the world. The horn from a Diesel Engine.

I looked back in disbelief - a gigantic Yellow & Grey (company's name not included to protect the innocent) engine was on my tail.

There was no time to think - I was walking my bike, but I then jumped on it and peddled like never before.

Thank God, I made it to the end of the bridge in time. The truth is, I have no idea how close behind me it was. I don't know if I was 5 feet from death, or 50, or 500 for that matter. I have no idea.

As I rode my bike from there, I was in disbelief at how stupid I was.

I revisited the site a few days later, only to see others crossing the bridge. I even tried to talk one guy out of it, but he thought I was a nut or something. I've since seen kids crossing it with a woman. I go there occasionally (it's near a pretty trail along the beach) and see others crossing the bridge. I watch in disbelief.

The worst thing about the whole tragedy would have been my legacy. I could not imagine my parents dealing with this... "our son went to college, had a good career going, etc., etc. then got hit by a train".

It took me about 6 months before I could hear a train whistle and not be terrified. (and this is coming from a fan of trains!)

A year or two later, I was jogging with a co-worker - a very respectable man in his career, and a devout family man and religious person. During our jog, he wanted to cross a train bridge. I told him I could never do that ever again in my life, and could not let him do it either. He thought I was a little quirky too, but I finally convinced him.

Maybe this is why I'm sensitive to this story of the tagger. I don't care too much about his tagging frankly. In the big picture, it's no big deal. If the guy stole my car, I still wouldn't want him to be killed by a train.

The moral of my story is common sense is more important than any skill, talent, etc. in this life.

Stay off the tracks.

[slotracer]

No regret or sorrow except for the engineer. Sounds like Darwin at work to me. No softy judge is going to give him a pass, the family is not going to call some lawyer to come down and get the kid off without a fine or charges and sneer at the legal system for having the audacity to arrest their kid. This is the hot stove principle at work, be stupid and pay a price.

[Anonymous]

Tisk, tisk, tisk... That's one way to deal with graffiti painters. But there's always going to be someone out there that thinks it's okay for people to "express themselves" with a can of spray paint, and feel sorry for them if they get hurt or killed while doing so-never mind that they're doing it on private property...

Personally, it makes me sick to see graffiti painted on anything, especially rail cars!.
Out in L. A., gang members have been known to kill people for painting over their street art as they call it. I read one time several years ago that they've even challenged rail yard personnel and security and dared them to interfer when they're painting on box cars.

Trainluver1

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grayfox1119

I wonder what each of us would say, if we were all standing by the tracks looking at his broken, lifeless body, and God came into our midst, and we recognised Him. Would we still say the very same things in His presence? ...

I can tell you exactly what I would be thinking and would say if I was staring at this kids body....

"Dude, what were you thinking?..."

It wouldnt change if the Big Guy was standing next to me...

[RedLeader]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lehigh Valley Railroad

Only person who I feel conpassion here for is the engineer who hit him. Most of railfans do not know what an engineer would go thru after hitting someone.

This reminds me of an accident several years ago, where a truck driver killed a man in a frontal collition, because the man was DUI and speeding and tried to pass another truck. A reporter asked the truck driver how was going to deal with the idea of him killing a man. The truck driver responded: "I didn't kill him, beer did."

I think the young man found what he was looking for. The issue is not that he paid with his life for vandalism, but rather for stupidity and irresponsability. If a man decides to start walking on the railings of a bridge, he's not hurting anyone, he's just being plain stupid by not meassuring the risks and dangers of walking on the railings of a bridge. If he falls and die, is not a fair punishment for improper use of city property, but it is a fair punishment for risking his life in doing something stupid and senceless.

[Leon Silverman]

Davekelly:
Your statement to your parents reminded me of the thanks my wife got from my daughter after she went off to college. Both girls complained to my wife about how she kept missing clothes to launder that weren't in the hamper. They did not appreciate how difficult it was for my wife to carry the laundry down two flights of stairs and get the baskets past my train layout on the way to the utility room. In desperation, my wife taught the girls how to do their own laundry. My daughter was the only person in the girls' freshmen dorm who knew how to use the laundramat.

[davekelly]

Jetrock,

Thanks for sharing your story. It's not easy to announce "stupid" things one did in the past. The key (and I tell my own son this) is that you have to take responsibility and learn from the incident.

When I was growing up I was more concerned about what my parents would do and think if I did something stupid. That was worse than anything a judge could do to me. To this day I continually thank them for being what I considered at the time "uncool, way to harsh parents." It kinda reminds me of the one commercial where all the kids are complaining to their parents (into the camera) for catching them, punishing them etc and at the end the one kid says "Thanks." So - in front of everyone I'll say it. "Thanks Mom and Dad for raising me right."

[challenger3802]

See ==> Crime never pays!

If only he could have taught his english (graffitti) friends where to stand when committing their crimes, perhaps we could halve the number of taggers' on London Underground!

Ian

[Jetrock]

[quot]He DIED for a crime that didn't really hurt anybody. Visual garbage sometimes, but some people have houses, yards, maybe their own body that's just as bad on the eyes.[/quot]

No, he died because he was stupid. A railfan who gets killed because he's standing on the railroad tracks and too focused on taking a photo to notice an oncoming train would be just as stupid. The fact that I have less objection to his hobby than to the "tagger" is a moot point.

No, I don't think that vandalism warrants the death penalty. Maybe a tit-for-tat punishment--take the vandal home, and randomly destroy a fiscally equivalent amount of their own property. If they don't own enough to make it worth it, then hey, here's a fine--equal to the repair/replacement cost of the item.

A bit of my personal history here, folks: I HAVE BEEN ARRESTED AND FOUND GUILTY OF VANDALISM. I broke someone's window when I was 19. It was a stupid thing to do. I felt pretty dumb about it afterwards, and when the judge ordered me to repay the replacement cost of the window I was perfectly willing to take responsibility for my actions. And that, my friends, was the end of my career in petty crime.

But I still don't feel sorry for the vandal.

[grayfox1119]

I wonder what each of us would say, if we were all standing by the tracks looking at his broken, lifeless body, and God came into our midst, and we recognised Him. Would we still say the very same things in His presence? Be honest with yourselves, really stop and think, what would you say in His presence? He is always looking over us all, remember that always ladies and gentlemen, let that be your guide, and you will never be ashamed at what you say later in life. Please believe someone who is older than all of you.

[davekelly]

He DIED for a crime that didn't really hurt anybody. Visual garbage sometimes, but some people have houses, yards, maybe their own body that's just as bad on the eyes.

It's a free country, he was trying to express his opinion. [\quote]

Tbatt55,

Can I exercise my right to an opinion in this free country and spray paint some stuff on your car and house? That's the difference . .. those with ugly houses or cars own the property they use to express their opinion. This young man didn't. Free expression does not give anyone the right to trespass onto another's property nor to deface/damage/destroy another's property.

Of course this does not mean that I don't feel for this person's friends and family. Perhaps some good will come of it and some other young person will decide not to be a tagger.

If you ain't having fun, you're not doing it right and if you are having fun, don't let anyone tell you you're doing it wrong.

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