ATLANTIC CENTRALActually you are correct, by the time I build the turnout controls and signal system, the cab control is a minimal part of it all.
The situation is just another type of incremental cost(effort)/benefit analysis. Which is different for everybody.
- Douglas
gregc this discussion has run its course if it can't focus on how it does it rather than what it presumably can do
this discussion has run its course if it can't focus on how it does it rather than what it presumably can do
Well I will be happy to share the technical information with you directly as I get it prepared. But I don't have the time to go deep into a bunch of "what if" examples.
The various issues with using this forum, posting drawings/photos, competing with ads while typing, etc, make this difficult for me.
Sheldon
Doughless dehusman Really all this interlocking stuff isn't DC or DCC, it's interlocking and switch control. Which way the turnouts are lined isn't DC or DCC. DC or DCC is how the power is applied to the track to make the trains go. I'm sure someplace in all this there is a layer of relays that controls which throttle is assigned to which block or track segment, but whether the switches are lined individually or with one button isn't a DC/DCC question. Sheldon started this thread. Based upon what he has explained in the past, the interlocking and signaling aspect is very important to him...and I would think all basement sized, multi train, multi-operator, class I, club-style layouts; would be interested in having these types of features. It doesn't apply to me and my shortline one train layouts, but considering that about 85% of modelers on this forum desire these types of layouts, I would think interlocking and signaling is an option for them. So how extensive the entire layout build is relative to the narrow issues of DCC or DC train control seems relevant, IMO. If these types of features requires this much wiring, then DCC certainly does not eliminate much wiring at all. And that has been Sheldon's point over the years. So maybe Sheldon can explain how much more wiring is needed for DC control beyond what is needed for this extensive interlocking and signaling. I'm assuming its about 10% more, if that, just based upon how he has explained it in the past. But I'm no electronics technician and my thoughts about this could be blown up very easily.
dehusman Really all this interlocking stuff isn't DC or DCC, it's interlocking and switch control. Which way the turnouts are lined isn't DC or DCC. DC or DCC is how the power is applied to the track to make the trains go. I'm sure someplace in all this there is a layer of relays that controls which throttle is assigned to which block or track segment, but whether the switches are lined individually or with one button isn't a DC/DCC question.
Really all this interlocking stuff isn't DC or DCC, it's interlocking and switch control. Which way the turnouts are lined isn't DC or DCC. DC or DCC is how the power is applied to the track to make the trains go. I'm sure someplace in all this there is a layer of relays that controls which throttle is assigned to which block or track segment, but whether the switches are lined individually or with one button isn't a DC/DCC question.
Sheldon started this thread. Based upon what he has explained in the past, the interlocking and signaling aspect is very important to him...and I would think all basement sized, multi train, multi-operator, class I, club-style layouts; would be interested in having these types of features.
It doesn't apply to me and my shortline one train layouts, but considering that about 85% of modelers on this forum desire these types of layouts, I would think interlocking and signaling is an option for them.
So how extensive the entire layout build is relative to the narrow issues of DCC or DC train control seems relevant, IMO.
If these types of features requires this much wiring, then DCC certainly does not eliminate much wiring at all.
And that has been Sheldon's point over the years.
So maybe Sheldon can explain how much more wiring is needed for DC control beyond what is needed for this extensive interlocking and signaling. I'm assuming its about 10% more, if that, just based upon how he has explained it in the past.
But I'm no electronics technician and my thoughts about this could be blown up very easily.
Actually you are correct, by the time I build the turnout controls and signal system, the cab control is a minimal part of it all.
With signals you need blocks, we all need turnout controls of one sort or another.
I could see this years ago when I looked into DCC and what it would take to add better turnout controls, CTC and signals.
A major factor in my choices.
Obviously you have been paying attention for years.....
Sheldon started this thread. Based upon what he has explained in the past, the interlocking and signaling aspect is very important to him...and I would think all basement sized, multi train, multi-operator, class I, club-style layouts; would be interested in having these types of features. It doesn't apply to me and my shortline one train layouts, but I would think interlocking and signaling is an option for most of the readers of this forum, who seem to desire these bigger more complex layouts at home or with their club.
So how extensive the entire layout build is relative to the narrow issue of DCC or DC train control seems relevant, IMO. If these types of features require this much wiring, either via Sheldon's way or Greg's way, then DCC certainly does not eliminate much wiring at all.
But I'm no electronics technician and my guesses about this could be blown up very easily.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
PM Railfan Im pretty sure I never saw the layout at the B&OMsm that you mentioned. I did see the one they had about 15 years ago. Wasnt like you described. Not running, only two trains, coulda been automated cuz it was only 2 dogbones, But again, wasnt running. High Ball! Douglas
Im pretty sure I never saw the layout at the B&OMsm that you mentioned. I did see the one they had about 15 years ago. Wasnt like you described. Not running, only two trains, coulda been automated cuz it was only 2 dogbones, But again, wasnt running.
High Ball!
Douglas
I know the guy that built the current layout at the B&O Museum as well. It is also DC and fully automated. Sorry it was not running when you were there.
In fact, the guy who built the controls made my custom circuit boards for my cab assignment circuit. I worked with him years ago when he designed and sold a computerized cab control system.
And I connected him and the layout builder for the current B&O Museum layout.
Yes, I recommend control systems based on peoples wants and goals. Most want enough features to want DCC.
dehusman ROBERT PETRICK but I did not know any of this analog DC stuff Sheldon and Greg are talking about, and even now I cannot understand about 90% of it. Really all this interlocking stuff isn't DC or DCC, it's interlocking and switch control. Which way the turnouts are lined isn't DC or DCC. DC or DCC is how the power is applied to the track to make the trains go. I'm sure someplace in all this there is a layer of relays that controls which throttle is assigned to which block or track segment, but whether the switches are lined individually or with one button isn't a DC/DCC question.
ROBERT PETRICK but I did not know any of this analog DC stuff Sheldon and Greg are talking about, and even now I cannot understand about 90% of it.
Well Dave, you are right, and as Greg pointed out, it was partly covered many pages ago.
There is a pushbutton cab assignment system that allows operators to assign their cabs to the next block as they walk around with their wireless radio throttles and their trains.
ADDITIONALLY, and equally as important is that inside all these turnout route controls are "X section" block wiring that means the trackage inside the interlocking limits does not have to be manually assigned to a throttle.
Track power is automaticly routed thru the interlocking based on the route and the cab selected on each side of the interlocking.
This is huge, since it reduces the number of manual cab assignments by half.
And, this is done in a way the prevents blocks from being over ran by an operator who runs a red signal.
So yes it is multi layered and fully intergrated.
The turnout controls provide:
And yes, the turnout control system will work with DC or DCC.
And, just in case you missed it in the beginning, if a dispatcher is on duty, the operators don't have to push any buttons - just control their train and obey the signals - just like real life or DCC.
dehusmanReally all this interlocking stuff isn't DC or DCC, it's interlocking and switch control.
that train left the station many pages ago.
ROBERT PETRICKeven now I cannot understand about 90% of it.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWell, as I said, this is going to take more than 10 minutes to design.
???
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ATLANTIC CENTRAL ROBERT PETRICK PM Railfan My gosh Sheldon, my head is swimming. Im DC like you, but dang all that ive seen is a lot of thought and effort. Impressive! Yes, I agree. I'm DCC, and dang I'm impressed! This kinda addresses my initial inquiry: if it weren't for DCC, I don't think I would have (or could have) taken up this sport in any serious way. I'm a modern, sophisticated, and fairly intellegent guy, but I did not know any of this analog DC stuff Sheldon and Greg are talking about, and even now I cannot understand about 90% of it. DCC has taken complex ideas and worked out the designs and produced pieces and parts that can be assembled, more or less, like stereo components. Buy one of deeze, one of dem, and one of doze; take them home and plug them in, push the button, and . . . voila . . . not only Brahms and Beethoven, but Lady Gaga as well. At your fingertips. Seems kinda like cheating or taking a lazy shortcut or something, but for me there was no other way. Robert I understand, remember, I tell new people to go DCC....... When you get to this level of DC it is complex when viewed as a whole. Not all of this is necessary for every set of layout goals. Greg keeps asking for drawings, why do you think the drawings are done in layers for each sub system...... But the notion that nobody had good control systems before DCC is just nonsense. Bruce Chubb, Ed Ravenscroft, Paul Mallery, and lots of others had easy to use control systems with detection and signaling long before DCC. When I was a child, the B&O Railroad Museum had an HO layout that ran four trains on two display loops with detection and signals and it was fully automated. It was built in the late 1950's. A fellow modeler I knew at the Severna Park club was the son of the guy who built it. Sheldon
ROBERT PETRICK PM Railfan My gosh Sheldon, my head is swimming. Im DC like you, but dang all that ive seen is a lot of thought and effort. Impressive! Yes, I agree. I'm DCC, and dang I'm impressed! This kinda addresses my initial inquiry: if it weren't for DCC, I don't think I would have (or could have) taken up this sport in any serious way. I'm a modern, sophisticated, and fairly intellegent guy, but I did not know any of this analog DC stuff Sheldon and Greg are talking about, and even now I cannot understand about 90% of it. DCC has taken complex ideas and worked out the designs and produced pieces and parts that can be assembled, more or less, like stereo components. Buy one of deeze, one of dem, and one of doze; take them home and plug them in, push the button, and . . . voila . . . not only Brahms and Beethoven, but Lady Gaga as well. At your fingertips. Seems kinda like cheating or taking a lazy shortcut or something, but for me there was no other way. Robert
PM Railfan My gosh Sheldon, my head is swimming. Im DC like you, but dang all that ive seen is a lot of thought and effort. Impressive!
My gosh Sheldon, my head is swimming. Im DC like you, but dang all that ive seen is a lot of thought and effort. Impressive!
Yes, I agree. I'm DCC, and dang I'm impressed!
This kinda addresses my initial inquiry: if it weren't for DCC, I don't think I would have (or could have) taken up this sport in any serious way. I'm a modern, sophisticated, and fairly intellegent guy, but I did not know any of this analog DC stuff Sheldon and Greg are talking about, and even now I cannot understand about 90% of it.
DCC has taken complex ideas and worked out the designs and produced pieces and parts that can be assembled, more or less, like stereo components. Buy one of deeze, one of dem, and one of doze; take them home and plug them in, push the button, and . . . voila . . . not only Brahms and Beethoven, but Lady Gaga as well. At your fingertips. Seems kinda like cheating or taking a lazy shortcut or something, but for me there was no other way.
Robert
I understand, remember, I tell new people to go DCC.......
When you get to this level of DC it is complex when viewed as a whole. Not all of this is necessary for every set of layout goals.
Greg keeps asking for drawings, why do you think the drawings are done in layers for each sub system......
But the notion that nobody had good control systems before DCC is just nonsense.
Bruce Chubb, Ed Ravenscroft, Paul Mallery, and lots of others had easy to use control systems with detection and signaling long before DCC.
When I was a child, the B&O Railroad Museum had an HO layout that ran four trains on two display loops with detection and signals and it was fully automated. It was built in the late 1950's.
A fellow modeler I knew at the Severna Park club was the son of the guy who built it.
Robert and Sheldon) I wanted to address both these posts, Im just being lazy and copied them into one.
I agree with your second paragrapgh more than your first, Robert. I think if you gave it some study, youd prolly , well maybe even say - " i coulda done this or that ". Get yourself down to 30% instead of 90%.
Do make special note Sheldons designs are specific, and i would agree with his description of complex. DC is still the simplist form of model train operation. It only really takes a transformer, two wires, and a circle of track. Cellphone not required!
If you can work a stereo, you can handle that!
Sheldon I too sometimes will recommend DCC over DC. It depends on what they are looking for, what they want to do, and for DCC especially - do they have the money.
Yeah, the notion of no good system before DCC is the fine print on the label for unobtainium. pure hogwash. Just the names you mentioned, and a few that have never been, im sure could show us a thing or two about exotic DC controlled layouts. I would pay a quarter for that tour and love to meet them!
Shoot, I bet not just the past, but present day as well. Obviously the future is yet to be seen.
ROBERT PETRICKbut I did not know any of this analog DC stuff Sheldon and Greg are talking about, and even now I cannot understand about 90% of it.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL But that will not be possible with the "sharing" of turnouts by this many different routes. please explain why? ATLANTIC CENTRAL You need to sit down with a slip switch and understand what combination of physical movement creates each of the four routes. i have. separate motors for each half. it's 2 separate switches have another look at the interlock i developed. there are 2 single slips middle bottom (not part of any crossover)
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But that will not be possible with the "sharing" of turnouts by this many different routes.
please explain why?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL You need to sit down with a slip switch and understand what combination of physical movement creates each of the four routes.
i have. separate motors for each half. it's 2 separate switches
have another look at the interlock i developed. there are 2 single slips middle bottom (not part of any crossover)
Well, as I said, this is going to take more than 10 minutes to design.
There is no getting around the 10 logic relays for the four track crossover, each route needs to be defined, illuminated and interlocked.
Four of them have to default "on" at system startup.
It does look like four turnout control relays will be enough for the six switch machines, assuming I don't run out of contacts.
You are asking questions that I don't know the absolute answers to until I start drawing the circuit.
Single slip switches only have two logical states - both tracks straight thru or the "slip" connecting the two tracks.
Double slips have four discrete routes:
The slip routes require both throw bars to move in the same direction.
The thru routes require them to move into opposite positions.
Each one of those routes is going to require a different pair of commands to those two switch motors x 2.
Yes the regular turnouts at the top and bottom do match one of the slip switch positions in each case, eliminating two turnout relays.
Eliminating relays at this point is not an automatic advantage, the contacts on them will likely be needed.
The panel indicators, multiple button locations, holding circuits, lockouts, etc, are all easier to wire and implement if they all use the same scheme. Easier to trouble shoot as well should that ever be necessary - a failure after shake down would be a first.
As I am anxious to get my layout construction moving forward, and I may be building this section of benchwork in a few weeks, this is as high a priority as anything regarding the layout.
I will work on it as I can over the coming days.
Tomorrows job, get started on 400 sq ft of hardwood flooring and start installing kitchen cabinets. Kitchen cabinets are one of the most fun jobs we do. This is the fun part of the job, where it starts to look like a house.
I am also in the middle of designing two homes for other clients.....
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut that will not be possible with the "sharing" of turnouts by this many different routes.
ATLANTIC CENTRALYou need to sit down with a slip switch and understand what combination of physical movement creates each of the four routes.
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL Once a specific route relay is sealed in, it will be able to drive its "list of turnouts" to their correct positions. That will take a contact for each turnout in that specific route. finally, another puzzle piece ... so you have "route" relays to enable all the needed "turnout" relays (at least on one side of the interlock) to align a route presumably they are mutually exclusive -- enabling one disables all others ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well the first problem is the way slip switches work. To choose all four routes, each slip switch will need two switch motors and two relays of their own to generate all four routes just in the slip switch. each half of a slip switch can be part of 2 separate crossovers. doesn't a crossover just require one turnout relay?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Once a specific route relay is sealed in, it will be able to drive its "list of turnouts" to their correct positions. That will take a contact for each turnout in that specific route.
finally, another puzzle piece ...
so you have "route" relays to enable all the needed "turnout" relays (at least on one side of the interlock) to align a route
presumably they are mutually exclusive -- enabling one disables all others
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well the first problem is the way slip switches work. To choose all four routes, each slip switch will need two switch motors and two relays of their own to generate all four routes just in the slip switch.
each half of a slip switch can be part of 2 separate crossovers. doesn't a crossover just require one turnout relay?
Not every circuit requires separate logic and turnout relays.
All the simple circuits I have shown you, a single turnout or single crossover, the wye, which can also drive the double diverging route or the pair of crossovers, are able to use one, two or all of the logic relays as the turnout relays depending on the track arrangement.
But that will not be possible with the "sharing" of turnouts by this many different routes.
You need to sit down with a slip switch and understand what combination of physical movement creates each of the four routes.
I don't have a drawing handy, and I'm not going to try to explain it.
Each of the slip switches will need to move to all four of of its possible routes independent of other turnouts due to the overlaping routes.
Small correction from earlier info. The crossover to the left of the four track crossover will only be interlocked with the four track crossover to the extent that its "crossover" route will not co-exist with the track #1 to track #2 route. When track #1 to track #2 is selected on the 4 track crossover, the left crossover will default to straight thru.
The lighted pushbuttons save parts, wire and unclutter the control panel.
The same wire from the control panel that energizes the relay, stays hot after the relay is sealed in, and it powers the LED in the button.
Take another look at the holding circuit here:
The lighted buttons show the route? The info may not come from the turnout or its operating relay, but I don't consider that a problem.
The wire powering the LED shown by the relay coil is the same wire at the push button. There can be an LED at every pushbutton with no extra wire this way. Only requirement - both the + and - wires need to exist at the panel - that's only one extra wire for the whole panel.
Not dozens of pairs run from switch machines or turnout relays.....
The indicator lights for the cab selection buttons work the same way.
ATLANTIC CENTRALOnce a specific route relay is sealed in, it will be able to drive its "list of turnouts" to their correct positions. That will take a contact for each turnout in that specific route.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWell the first problem is the way slip switches work. To choose all four routes, each slip switch will need two switch motors and two relays of their own to generate all four routes just in the slip switch.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhile many relay circuits do use normally closed buttons, I don't use them for buttons I want to light - because the sub minature LED lighted buttons I use only come normally open. There are 10 possible routes thru the four track crossover, there will need to be 10 logic relays, each will define its route and propagate its holding circuit.
There are 10 possible routes thru the four track crossover, there will need to be 10 logic relays, each will define its route and propagate its holding circuit.
i showed how 3 turnout relays could be used
instead of using a lighted button to indicate what route was pressed, LEDs controlled by a DP relay contact on the turnout relay cane indicate the crossover positions (in this case) and the actual route (i.e. turnout alignment)
11405
Well the first problem is the way slip switches work. To choose all four routes, each slip switch will need two switch motors and two relays of their own to generate all four routes just in the slip switch.
While many relay circuits do use normally closed buttons, I don't use them for buttons I want to light - because the sub minature LED lighted buttons I use only come normally open.
Some of the routes can co-exist, some cannot. That will require some truth table interlocking.
And then there is the partial interlocking with the crossover to the left (west).
Once a specific route relay is sealed in, it will be able to drive its "list of turnouts" to their correct positions. That will take a contact for each turnout in that specific route.
Other routes will energize or de-energize the turnout relays to get the turnout positions they require. That is what happens in the much simpler wye/twin crossover circuit.
But are you starting to get some sense of this? yes, clearly you are.
not quite enough right?
this shows the 4 tracks and 6 turnouts on the left side of the interlock along with the buttons for aligning turnouts between tracks
# 1 ________________L # a\ # 2 ___\____________N M # b c\ # 3 _______\________O P Q # d e\ # 4 ___________\____R S T U # f
L aligns 1 straight thru
N aligns 1&2
M aligns 2 straight thru
...
but there are just 3 turnout relays: ab, cd & ef each throwing a pair of turnouts forming a crossovers
the following attempts to show the buttons in series with the relay coils. there are other contacts for holding circuit.
... wire connection
_-_ normally open button
___ normally closed button
.._-_.. R |._-_.| O # ab-relay ..___...___.|._-_.|......... pwr # L M N .._-_.. R |._-_.| P # cd-relay ..___...___.|._-_.|......... pwr # M Q O .._-_.. T |._-_.| S # ef-relay ..___...___.|._-_.|......... pwr # Q U R
button L, which make track #1 straight thru, is normally closed. pressing it would open the circuit the the ab relay coil, de-energizing itthe same is true for buttom M which makes trakc #2 straight thru. it also deenergized the cd relaybuttons N, O and R are all normally open and when pressed close the circuit energizing the relay and throwing the turnouta problem is button S for example, which is intended to align tracks #4 and #2. but it doesn't de-energize the ab-relay if it is energized. perhaps a DPDT switch
... and so on
is this right idea, even if it isn't done this way? why?
rushed
gregc i understand that. how many turnouts need to be thrown? (6) how are all those turnout relays controlled by that one switch? presumably some of those same turnouts need to be thrown by other bottons on tracks 2, 3 & 4? how are those turnouts un-thrown if button #2 on track #2 is pressed afterwards? would love to see something like a schematic
i understand that.
how many turnouts need to be thrown? (6) how are all those turnout relays controlled by that one switch? presumably some of those same turnouts need to be thrown by other bottons on tracks 2, 3 & 4?
how are those turnouts un-thrown if button #2 on track #2 is pressed afterwards?
would love to see something like a schematic
The relay logic for such actions is really pretty simple, but sometimes a bit contact intensive. We will see. In a case like this there will be separate relays for the route/button logic, and separate relays for the switch motors so that multiple choices can overlap or override each other.
I promise, as soon as I can, I will post the drawing. It is a process, it will take more than 10 minutes. Just got home from another fun day of carpentry.
Before PLC's, relays controlled assembly lines, waste water pumping stations, power plants, everything....
In 1980 I installed four very early Cutler Hammer PLC's to replace three cabinets full of control relays - the cabinets were bigger than a large refrigerator and were packed full of large Square D heavy duty relays.
They controlled three 700 HP, 2400 volt, 3 phase, variable speed sewage pumps in one of the most critical pumping stations in the Baltimore waste water system.
Relays had to manage motor driven gate valves that had to open partly for startup, then open in proprorton the motor speed. They managed all sorts of sensors, level and pressure monitors, Armature and field voltages from the three motor driven liquid rheostats that controlled the speed based on incoming flow rates.
And then there were all the safety alarms, remote emergency controls, primary station contols - and did I mention sequence controls? The pumps useage sequence was rotated to provide even wear rates on all three pumps.
And if a pump failed, another would come on line to replace it.
I had to understand the old controls before I could write the new code, because the city did not have the "sequence" or functions documented in any way other than the control drawings and notes on the drawings - from 1956.
I think we can manage 13 turnouts.... And I think you will find it interesting.
One day I will tell you an interesting story about the automatic high voltage switch gear we installed in that pumping station, and how the automatic change over in a power outage was controlled by relays - a relay circuit that I had to redesign because it was causing random power outages.
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL Do you mean the track #4 button on the left at the top of the four track crossover? sorry, button #4 on track #1
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Do you mean the track #4 button on the left at the top of the four track crossover?
sorry, button #4 on track #1
That button will connect track #1 to track #4, all the way thru both slip switches.
ATLANTIC CENTRALDo you mean the track #4 button on the left at the top of the four track crossover?
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL Greg keeps asking for drawings, why do you think the drawings are done in layers for each sub system...... can't imagine how anyone can follow sheldon's use of relays without some sort of diagram. for software i've used data flow, structure, state, timing, ... diagrams. maybe sheldon is using something like Karnaugh maps i used in college for digital logic. maybe there's some uniue type of diagram for relay logic? at this point, i'm not interested in: cab control, signaling or turnout lockout i am interested in how multiple turnouts are aligned to a route with a single button press in trackage more complex than a wye or dbl crossovers. i'm not saying a single button thru the entire interlock we're discussing. i can imagine numerous contacts to do so, but i think diodes in combinations with relays would be a simpler approach i still don't have a good enough understanding of sheldon's approach that i could do it myself how is button #1 on track #4 controlling multiple turnouts on the left side of the interlock?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Greg keeps asking for drawings, why do you think the drawings are done in layers for each sub system......
can't imagine how anyone can follow sheldon's use of relays without some sort of diagram. for software i've used data flow, structure, state, timing, ... diagrams. maybe sheldon is using something like Karnaugh maps i used in college for digital logic. maybe there's some uniue type of diagram for relay logic?
at this point, i'm not interested in: cab control, signaling or turnout lockout
i am interested in how multiple turnouts are aligned to a route with a single button press in trackage more complex than a wye or dbl crossovers. i'm not saying a single button thru the entire interlock we're discussing.
i can imagine numerous contacts to do so, but i think diodes in combinations with relays would be a simpler approach
i still don't have a good enough understanding of sheldon's approach that i could do it myself
how is button #1 on track #4 controlling multiple turnouts on the left side of the interlock?
Do you mean the track #4 button on the left at the top of the four track crossover?
That button will align track #4 straight thru. If you align track #4 straight thru there is no reason for the track #3 slip to be set for track #4. So, short of an instruction to align track #3 to track #2 or #1 aligning track #4 will also align track #3 straight thru.
Standard behavior for any "crossover".
There will need to be some "intermediate defaults" for some conditions. I know what most will need or want to be. A few will be figured out as the circuit design progresses.
ATLANTIC CENTRALGreg keeps asking for drawings, why do you think the drawings are done in layers for each sub system......
LINK to SNSR Blog
gregc in college (80s) i saw a processor implemented with nothing but ROM (memory chips) where some of the outputs are wired back 3 Qatarto the inputs creating a state machine, similar to what i see you do with holding circuits. the only reason i recognized such a thing was because i was familiar with the much simpler Apple II disc controller which did something similar it's amazing what has been done, but certainly not as easy to understand as todays tech. ATLANTIC CENTRAL This interlocking will require about 25 relays just for logic and turnout activation. Hard to say at this point what the contact counts will be. No worries, I have hundreds and hundreds of them not sure what this means. aren't there a limited # of contacts per relay? or do you just energize multiple relays to add contacts ATLANTIC CENTRAL The four track crossover will be a bit complex but no problem. I've designed circuits to run assembly lines way more complex than that. (again) anxious to see a diagram illustrating the design wondering if you use a (matrix) diagram illustrating which turnouts need to be "thrown" for each route. seeing that and how a turnout relay is energized from multiple buttons would help
in college (80s) i saw a processor implemented with nothing but ROM (memory chips) where some of the outputs are wired back 3 Qatarto the inputs creating a state machine, similar to what i see you do with holding circuits. the only reason i recognized such a thing was because i was familiar with the much simpler Apple II disc controller which did something similar
it's amazing what has been done, but certainly not as easy to understand as todays tech.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL This interlocking will require about 25 relays just for logic and turnout activation. Hard to say at this point what the contact counts will be. No worries, I have hundreds and hundreds of them
not sure what this means. aren't there a limited # of contacts per relay? or do you just energize multiple relays to add contacts
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The four track crossover will be a bit complex but no problem. I've designed circuits to run assembly lines way more complex than that.
(again) anxious to see a diagram illustrating the design
wondering if you use a (matrix) diagram illustrating which turnouts need to be "thrown" for each route. seeing that and how a turnout relay is energized from multiple buttons would help
I remember those circuits, I think I have some model train electronics books with simple versions of that approach for several circuits.
Yes, if you run out of contacts you just add repeater relays. Again, I bought them cheap. But that is what has traditionally been done.There are some truth tables we use to maximize contact efficiency. Sometimes a N.C. contact in one place in a circuit can replace two N.O. contracts, etc.
On the cab control circuit board, four of the eight relays are the logic, the other four are repeaters that switch the throttle circuit. The relay contacts are rated at 5 amps, so on that board the contacts are actually doubled up to provide 10 amp capacity and they switch both legs, no common wire/rail in the propulsion circuits.
Yes, a matrix of sorts, more like a truth table.
in college (80s) i saw a processor implemented with nothing but ROM (memory chips) where some of the outputs are wired back to the inputs creating a state machine, similar to what i see you do with holding circuits. the only reason i recognized such a thing was because i was familiar with the much simpler Apple II disc controller which did something similar
ATLANTIC CENTRALThis interlocking will require about 25 relays just for logic and turnout activation. Hard to say at this point what the contact counts will be. No worries, I have hundreds and hundreds of them
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe four track crossover will be a bit complex but no problem. I've designed circuits to run assembly lines way more complex than that.
PM Railfan My gosh Sheldon, my head is swimming. Im DC like you, but dang all that ive seen is a lot of thought and effort. Impressive! Makes me see a big, forboding grey cloud on my retirement horizon when it comes time for me to do this kinda planning too. ooooweeee! With the drawings, explanations, and Greg's prodding, as said before, a most excellent thread!!! I look forward to putting this into practice someday! Clear Ahead! Douglas #2
Makes me see a big, forboding grey cloud on my retirement horizon when it comes time for me to do this kinda planning too. ooooweeee!
With the drawings, explanations, and Greg's prodding, as said before, a most excellent thread!!! I look forward to putting this into practice someday!
Clear Ahead!
Douglas #2
Thank you.
gregc looks like there are separate buttons for each track to align it with the tracks on the left and right is there a button(s) missing on the right side of track 2? should there be a button on the right side of track 3? is the Reset button the equivalent of hitting the 1, 2, 3 and 4 buttons on tracks 1, 2, 3, and 4? (does that button just un-throw relays)? ATLANTIC CENTRAL The controls for the crossover between tracks #1 and #2, to the left (west) of the four track crossover will automaticly align the lower half of the four track crossover straight thru for tracks #1 and #2 when selected. why 3 buttons instead of 2? same question for the crossover at the far right? ATLANTIC CENTRAL When I have the wiring schematic drawn, I will publish it am curious to see how this wired? looking at the arrows on the diagram, why are there routes between the east and westbound tracks? don't there just need to be connections between tracks 1 & 3 and 2 & 4?
looks like there are separate buttons for each track to align it with the tracks on the left and right
is there a button(s) missing on the right side of track 2? should there be a button on the right side of track 3?
is the Reset button the equivalent of hitting the 1, 2, 3 and 4 buttons on tracks 1, 2, 3, and 4? (does that button just un-throw relays)?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The controls for the crossover between tracks #1 and #2, to the left (west) of the four track crossover will automaticly align the lower half of the four track crossover straight thru for tracks #1 and #2 when selected.
why 3 buttons instead of 2?
same question for the crossover at the far right?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL When I have the wiring schematic drawn, I will publish it
am curious to see how this wired?
looking at the arrows on the diagram, why are there routes between the east and westbound tracks? don't there just need to be connections between tracks 1 & 3 and 2 & 4?
Yes, specific to the four track crossover a button for each route. Thought I explained that rather carefully.
Yes, there can/should be another button on the right side of track #2. The crossover on the upper right from track #2 directly to track #4 will work as a single unit. So the button on track #4 will also return the turnout on track #2 to the straight thru position.
On that note, all my single crossovers work that way - so yes, the other single crossovers have a redundant button. The two buttons on the straight thru routes are really the same button electrically. So yes track #2 logically should have one as well.
The arrows do indicate normal traffic flow but the whole layout will be wired and signaled for traffic in both directions on all tracks.
In the 40's and 50's in particular, on many railroads, the whole point of double track was not just bi directional traffic, but also so the whole maineline could function as a passing siding as needed. Some did that without siganling in both directions on all tracks others installed full signaling, others only did it between interlockings most likely to beusedin that way.
This interlocking will require about 25 relays just for logic and turnout activation. Hard to say at this point what the contact counts will be. No worries, I have hundreds and hundreds of them.
The right (east) side will be easy, it is just three crossovers with one extra little twist.
The four track crossover will be a bit complex but no problem. I've designed circuits to run assembly lines way more complex than that.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe controls for the crossover between tracks #1 and #2, to the left (west) of the four track crossover will automaticly align the lower half of the four track crossover straight thru for tracks #1 and #2 when selected.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhen I have the wiring schematic drawn, I will publish it
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