BN7150 Q. A-2: Explain the claim that the coupling of underset and overset shank couplers can cause trouble.
Q. A-2: Explain the claim that the coupling of underset and overset shank couplers can cause trouble.
I have done this on several locos. Never had problems - it fixed problems, it did not create any.
Simon
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
A grade (full score 100 points, passing score 40 points or more)
Q. A-1: Explain the phenomenon that the coupler head sometimes hangs down even if the mounting height of the pocket is correct.
Q. A-3: Explain the points to keep in mind when installing Kadee couplers in non-Kadee pockets, with specific examples.
S grade (full score 100 points, passing score 30 points or more)
Q. S-1: Think about the reason why #5 (including #6, 7, 8, 16) made the left and right coupler's reversion forces different.
Q. S-2: Guess why Athearn BB lowered it's center height by 0.040 in. while Horn-hook (developed in 1952-1954) and Kadee both have the height of 25/64 (0.391) in.
Q. S-3: Anticipate the phenomenon of concern for #804 for O scale, which has a structure in which the centering spring contracts when a pulling force is applied. (including #K4, #K15 in HO, also MTL #1025)
The more I get to know Kadee couplers, the more I am amazed at how thoroughly they are thought out.
Atlantic Central, please rate yourself. Model answers may not be published. If you ask me to explain a question, I would be happy to do so.
JaBear, I think that the easy-to-derail 4-wheel cars in non-North America push the modelers towards this kind of research. I wrote the results of the research on my blog. Here's a list of coupler-related posts, but they should be difficult to translate into English.
ATLANTIC CENTRALSo when do report cards come out?
So when do report cards come out?
B-3: Explain why truck-mount couplers (Talco trucks) are frequently used in N scale.
Having modelled extensively in HO and N, I will simply say this... because they work. Back when I was in N scale, locomotives got body mounted pilot conversions, and freight cars had truck mounted couplers with pizza-cutter flanges.
Nothing derailed, and it all worked.
My friend Randy body mounted all his couplers and converted everything to low-flange wheels, nothing derails, and it all works.
If you stick with Micro-Trains (formerly Kadee) products in N scale, you will probably never have any problems.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
BN7150 B grade (full score 100 points, passing score 50 points or more) 2233 Q. B-1: Surmise why the Athearn stopped using the swinging coupler pockets on the Genesis long cars. Q. B-2: Anticipate Kadee's intentions of releasing the #148 (#242) with different mounting dimensions than the #5 (#232). Q. B-3: Explain why truck-mount couplers (Talco trucks) are frequently used in N scale.
B grade (full score 100 points, passing score 50 points or more) 2233
Q. B-1: Surmise why the Athearn stopped using the swinging coupler pockets on the Genesis long cars.
Q. B-2: Anticipate Kadee's intentions of releasing the #148 (#242) with different mounting dimensions than the #5 (#232).
Q. B-3: Explain why truck-mount couplers (Talco trucks) are frequently used in N scale.
B-1: I have no idea. I don't model the modern era, so i don't buy the long freight cars offered by Athearn or anyone.
B-2: So the #148 coupler and thr #5 coupler have the same shank lenght, the only thing different is the 242 box. I covered this indirectly earlierdiffernt rolling stock will require different mounting positions on the floor of the car. The 242 box extends the coupler slighly and allows wider swing.
Important note here, while others may have a different approach, I use the orginal coupler pockets on the equipment whenever possible and only use Kadee boxes/draft gear when converting talgo passenger cars, building wooden kits, etc.
B-3: The dynamics of coupler and wheel forces are different in N scale, it is less of an issue.
Sheldon
Q. B-3: Explain why truck-mount couplers (Talgo Talco trucks) are frequently used in N scale.
JaBear, thanks for the advice. It's hard to articulate the problems.
The next video is from the period when I was researching coupling devices. 1548
BN7150This is also a test of my English writing ability.
Ok, I will answer as they apply to me.
F1 - Plastic knockoff's flex too much, need replaced too often. Their performance is sub-standard in my opinion.
Only non-Kadee's you will find on my equipment are ScaleTrains metal knuckle couplers, and Walther's ProtoMax metal knuckle couplers, on their respective equipment. These I have found to work to my satisfaction.
F2 - I have steel weights and steel axles on most of my cars. I know people dislike them with uncoupling magnets, but as my uncoupling is done by picks, it is no issue for me and my layout.
F3 - The scale head is less forgiving of mis-aligned heights. But I use them with no issues. I do have a mix of standard and scale heads, as any replacements are scale heads, non-replaced Kadee's, ProtoMax couplers are standard head. I had no issues my last layout, and careful trackwork on my new layout should result in the same.
E1 -For my layout: Uncoupler picks. Must be able to easily reach the cars, but works for most layouts with no track/layout modifications needed.
E2 - Will not transfer power, even unintentionally.
E3 - It allows longer cars to operate on tight radii curves needed by many (most) modellers, myself included.
D1 - I dislike them due to their performance when doing reverse moves.
D2 - Graphite helps the couplers stay free moving. (But is cheaper at autoparts stores as lock lubricant powder.)
D3 - The shelf couplers stay together better, but I only use them on tank cars. (Prototype tank cars require full shelf couplers, other freight cars do not.)
C1 - If the car/loco requires a short shank coupler than it is not dangerous. Only issue occurs when the car/loco is not set up for them. So this question I do not understand.
C2 - Non-Kadee's may not perform the same. Sargent couplers are not
C3 - Polyacetal plastic is "slippery." It is commonly used for applications like this.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
C-1: Coupling two cars with short shank couplers together is no problem and surely not dangerous if the cars are short enough and/or the curves are large enough. I install short shank couplers on a number of different cars depending on the exact draft gear position to achieve more prototypical close coupling with no issues at all.
And remember my passenger car example above, long shank couplers set back on the car for close coupling. And those cars work fine down to about 28" radius.
C-2: Why would anyone do that? I can't answer a question that does not apply to me.
C-3: Lubrication and insulation
C grade (full score 100 points, passing score 60 points or more)
Q. C-1: Explain the argument that coupling short shank couplers together may cause problems is dangerous. (fixed by JaBear's advice)
Q. C-2: State the points to keep in mind when using non-Kadee knuckle couplers.
Q. C-3: Guess why the narrow pocket #262 was made of polyacetal (POM).
BN7150 It's okay to see other people's answers, but copy-and-paste is not allowed. F grade test (full score 100 points, pass 90 points or more) Q. F-1: List the reasons why non-Kadee magnetic knuckle couplers are disliked. Q. F-2: State why steel weights are accepted while steel axles are discouraged. Q. F-3: Explain why many modelers prefer the standard head #148 over the scale head #158. This is also a test of my English writing ability. :-) E grade (full score 100 points, passing score 80 points or more)677 Q. E-1: Enumerate uncoupling techniques while the rolling stocks remains on the track. Q. E-2: List reasons why coupler pockets historically changed from metal to plastic. Q. E-3: Describe why the swinging coupler pockets are adopted for the Walthers long cars. Added on Nov. 30, 2022 D grade (full score 100 points, passing score 70 points or more) 1215 Q. D-1: State why truck mount couplers (Talgo trucks) are dangerous. Q. D-2: Explain why Kadee recommends #231 Greas-em as a coupler lubricant. Q. D-3: Consider why some modelers install #118 SF shelf couplers on Walthers swinging pockets. Added on Dec. 01, 2022
It's okay to see other people's answers, but copy-and-paste is not allowed.
F grade test (full score 100 points, pass 90 points or more)
Q. F-1: List the reasons why non-Kadee magnetic knuckle couplers are disliked.
Q. F-2: State why steel weights are accepted while steel axles are discouraged.
Q. F-3: Explain why many modelers prefer the standard head #148 over the scale head #158.
This is also a test of my English writing ability. :-)
E grade (full score 100 points, passing score 80 points or more)677
Q. E-1: Enumerate uncoupling techniques while the rolling stocks remains on the track.
Q. E-2: List reasons why coupler pockets historically changed from metal to plastic.
Q. E-3: Describe why the swinging coupler pockets are adopted for the Walthers long cars.
D grade (full score 100 points, passing score 70 points or more) 1215
Q. D-1: State why truck mount couplers (Talgo trucks) are dangerous.
Q. D-2: Explain why Kadee recommends #231 Greas-em as a coupler lubricant.
Q. D-3: Consider why some modelers install #118 SF shelf couplers on Walthers swinging pockets.
I run short 7 car trains and uncouple cars by hand, lifting up the car. So the "correct" answers to any questions about couplers is. (which is the same for metal wheels and metal axels, metal wheels and plastic axles, or even plastic wheels and metal axles)
1. Never Matters
2. Never Matters
3. Never Matters
Overall, I like the smaller heads because they look better. And plastic wheels because they are already naturally dark colored.
- Douglas
Still waiting for some feedback from the OP. The questions are not getting harder, but then again I have 55 years of impirical evidence.
D1: Talgo trucks transfer coupler forces DIRECTLY to the flanges as side force. The same flanges that in theory should not actually be touching the rail that often.
D2: Expensive in that form, but it does the job.
D3: Keeps the coupled, provides some simulation of tightlock couplers used on passenger equipment.
D1. Talgo trucks are for toys. Not prototype.
D2. Because they make a lot of money selling graphite lock lube in the tiny tube. ( I never really used it and have zero trouble) They also tell you to burnish the shank.
D3. I don't have any. But some club members cars would uncouple randomly when the swinging gearbox droops. The shelf coupler keeps them coupled.
Pete.
It's getting harder and harder.
D grade (full score 100 points, passing score 70 points or more)
Q. D-1: State why truck mount couplers (Talgo trucks) can cause problems are dangerous. (fixed by JaBear's advice)
Q. D-3: Consider why some modelers install #118 SF shelf couplers on Walthers swinging pockets. (#118 or scale head #119)
Kadees work better in all respects, the few copycats I've used are inconsistant to begin with and deteriorate from there.
Steel axles attract to uncoupling magnets.
Scale coupler heads don't couple as well, as they have liminted gathering range. especially on even the slightest curves. I do use them on my smaller "Old Time" models that don't see regular traffic service. Dan
E grade test (full score 100 points, passing score 80 points or more)
Bamboo skewers are good for uncoupling anywhere, particularly on straight sections of rail.
I started with Kadee between-the-rails permanent magnets. These work well for stub-end sidings, but would have problems on a main line because they would lead to unwanted uncoupling while trains are just passing over.
I have a few Kadee under-the-ties magnets. These work well, but they can draw metal axles towards them because they are so strong. You have to plan far ahead because you need to put them in before you lay the track.
I have a few electromagnets. They don't cause unwanted uncoupling because they are normally not energized. Again, they require advance planning before you lay track. They require hefty power supplies because the magnets draw a lot of current.
Other than piping which remains metal, other under-car details have all gone plastic. I have removed the coupler pockets from 50s era Athearn engines (models built then, I'm that old) where the pocket was part of the frame because it was easier to isolate the couplers that way when the frame is part of the power circuit. On my old Athearn blue box rolling stock, I still have a lot of metal coupler box covers.
Mine are not Walthers, but Rivarosis. To get enough swing to negotiate tight curves, you need either swinging coupler pockets or the dreaded Talgo trucks. The swinging pockets are body mounted, so you don't have the problems with derailing while backing which is a bugaboo of Talgo trucks. By the way, I have a consist of ancient Tyco passenger cars with Talgo trucks. As long as I back them slowly and carefully, no problems.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Q. F-1: List the reasons why non-Kadee magnetic knuckle couplers are disliked
Answer: The plastic ones can break. The ones with a plastic "spring" do not work well.
Answer: magnetic axles interfere more with the uncoupling operation than the weights in the car. I think it's a distance factor.
Answer: I prefer the standard head. Despite all my efforts, some of my couplers are not perfectly level or exactly at the right height. Put two cars with minor imperfections together and you might get unwanted uncoupling. And cars do jump a bit in some areas on my layout, including areas where there are intentional kinks to allow for heat expansion.
BN7150Q. F-1: List the reasons why non-Kadee magnetic knuckle couplers are disliked.
They simply do not work as well or as reliable. Kadees take almost no pressure to couple-up on the layout. No other brand couples as easily.
BN7150Q. F-2: State why steel weights are accepted while steel axles are discouraged.
Steel weights are not acceptable to me. I use magnetic uncoupling, and the only magnetic material in any of my freight cars is the coupler pin. A Kadee 308 uncoupler will pull steel floor weights.
BN7150Q. F-3: Explain why many modelers prefer the standard head #148 over the scale head #158.
It is more reliable. Scale heads can come uncoupled in grade transitions, even from mainline to siding elevations. The problem is worse on longer cars.
F-1: Non Kadee couplers are too soft, too flexible, not as well manufactured in terms of finish or tollerances, often have thin shanks that allow them to sag. All this results in a long list of failures and inconsistant performance.
F-2: Steel weights are high enough to generally not be effected by Kadee uncoupling magnets, steel axles sometimes are drawn to the magnets.
F-3: The SEMI scale coupler (it is smaller but still a compromise) has several disadvantages, especially for those more involved in operation.
Problem #1 - If you use NMRA standard track and wheels the allowable side to side motion of your rolling stock actually exceeds the gathering range of the scale coupler.
Problem #2 - The scale coupler has a oblong shape to allow it to couple with the original Kadee coupler. This not only looks out of proportion, as a few others have mentioned, it does not fully solve the problem of smooth and complete interchange between the two types.
Years ago I conducted tests of the coupling force necessary to couple the various couplers too themselves and other brands, and types. Coupling a scale coupler to an original coupler, under ideal conditons, reguires about 50% more force than coupling an original to an original, OR a scale to scale.
Problem #3 - Tests with long trains concluded that the scale coupler actually has MORE slack action do to the oblong head that allows it to couple to the original head coupler. I run long trains, 35-50 cars typically, sometimes longer. Slack is better minimized.
You specificly mention #148 vs #158, however I use many of the different Kadee shank/draft gear/ spring systems depending on the application.
As a side note I do not use code 88 semi scale wheels either for a list of similar performance reasons, and because you are just trading one out of scale element (the tread width) for another out of scale element (the large gap between the wheel face and the side frame).
While the orginal standards developed for these items, trucks, couplers, wheelsets, are slightly oversized, they do have good proportions relative to the prototype. It is hard to fix just one part of that without loosing part of that effect.
And lastly, I have about 1500 pieces of rolling stock, conversion is not an option, and as stated above, mixing is not acceptable from a performance standpoint.
E-1: My personal choices, small picks, screwdrivers or "skewers". 90% of my operations areas are within easy reach. A few electromagnets for specific locations.
E-2: Coupler pockets were metal when car floors were metal for one. Metal was seen as stronger in a time before plastics evolved to be stronger and less brittle. And of course the overall evolution in how our rolling stock is designed and manufactured.
E-3: Our curves are VERY sharp by prototype standards. A 36" radius curve in HO is a minimum speed restricted curve on the prototype. For me, 36" radius is the minimum acceptable mainline radius.
I do not have the time or the prepared graphics to do a complete geometric evaluation here, but the pulling forces and angles involved with long cars and sharp cars require coupler pivot positions to be set back from the end of the car and given a longer swing for reliable operation.
This is nothing new and dates back to the earliest days of the hobby.
I do this on my passenger cars:
Long shank Kadee couplers set back for close coupling and touching diaphragms:
The responses from all of you have far exceeded my imaginations. Therefore, I refrain from showing my model answers.
I would appreciate it if you could separate your answer into a generic way and your own way.
i never saw machenry coupler ear rings but i have seen kadee ear rings so there's that lol
Because they are generally regarded as cheap junk that won't work reliably.
Some people have problems with uncoupling magnets and steel axles. I don't use magnets or automatic uncoupling - keeping a fleet of couplers in spec. for automatic uncoupling is lots of work.
That depends on which crowd you run with...Most of the modelers I know (including myself) use the scale couplers (58s) with the #5s with no problems. Some modelers have issues with the couplers not being as compatable as they would like...I haven't seen any issues on my layout.
Fun quiz,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
I have almost all of my rolling stock (ha, auto correct just suggested Rolling Stones) fitted with Kadees and metal wheels. I don't have problems with metal axles, although, seriously, I've become more fond of uncoupling with bamboo skewers.
I use #58s, the scale couplers with the old style leaf spring. i find the older style springs are more firm on the pocket and don't flop around vertically. I haven't replaced any of my older #5 couplers, so my fleet has a mixture of both #5 and #58. I have no problems with interoperability between them. I have a lot of 18 inch curves and they cause no problems. I do carefully check couplers with a gauge before putting them in service.
I model the late Transition Era, so mostly 40 foot boxcars with a few 50 footers thrown in.
#1, the plastic couplers can deform if held in the wrong position long enough . #2 steel axels don't play well with magnets. #3 Most prople have a mix of other brands and Kadee, I replace the other brands with Kadees as they have proublems over time, cuts down on cost, but more to the question, they don't couple with other than with their like as well, especialy the other brands.