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Rapido ALCO-PA

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  • Member since
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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, June 21, 2022 6:25 AM

SeeYou190

My entire Rapido roster is an RDC, three boxcars, and a mather meat reefer.

I have no Rapido locomotives, but I do have 15 passenger cars because Rapido did cover a lot of my railroads with their Super Continental line. I have 5 each of Erie, GTW, and C&EI. I would have had 5 more - - Monon coaches, but I procrastinated a bit too long and now they are not to be found anywhere.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Tuesday, June 21, 2022 12:19 AM

I am weak with this topic...

My entire Rapido roster is an RDC, three boxcars, and a mather meat reefer.

So sad.

-Kevin

Living the dream.

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Posted by gmpullman on Monday, June 20, 2022 6:51 PM

dti406
Since I own Rapido FL9's, FA-2's, FP7's, RS-11's and RDC's I can't wait until I get my PRR PA's.

I was looking at my present roster of 10 L-L PAs just last night. Two each of Erie, New York Central and Nickel Plate and four Pennsy. I probably won't replace all of these with the new Rapidos but I'll start off with a pair of Nickel Plate "Bluebirds" and if they look and run well, which I imagine they will, I'll add a few more.

PE Tower was about eight miles from where I live now:

 NKP_PE6 by Edmund, on Flickr

Off the top of my head I believe my present Rapido loco roster pretty much matches Rick's with the addition of two Turbotrains (Yes, I'll be in for a Turbotrain II) a New Haven EP-5 and a C-P Royal Hudson.

So the two RS-11s had to go back for motor replacement and the Hudson had a bad eccentric crank which were repaired by Rapido, I've had nothing but fun and enjoyment from my Rapido models.

I'm glad they have the ability to bring new models to market.

 NH_EP5_Jet-FL9 by Edmund, on Flickr

 IMG_7998_edited-1 by Edmund, on Flickr

 BnO_4011-FA-aba by Edmund, on Flickr

 Turbo_PC52-Amtrak50 by Edmund, on Flickr

Cheers, Ed

 

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Posted by dti406 on Monday, June 20, 2022 6:27 PM

Since I own Rapido FL9's, FA-2's, FP7's, RS-11's and RDC's I can't wait until I get my PRR PA's.

 

 Rick Jesionowski 

Rule 1: This is my railroad.

Rule 2: I make the rules.

Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!

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Posted by PRR8259 on Monday, June 20, 2022 11:56 AM

Yes, the window height.  I said width you said height.  The window height on the model seems to be decreasing too quickly relative to the prototype photos, to my eye.  If it's actually correct then that's different, but it just doesn't look right.

Yes the gasket and window thickness may be contributing to the appearance and causing objections from some of the people.

Hopefully they will fix the trucks and get the cylinders to be horizontal instead of the way they look on the pilot models.

I never said I was an expert on models either; I go search out and find photos as or when needed to illustrate details.

I always wanted a good PA but my modeling era has kinda moved on from that era.  Once I was going to build a layout with the (Overland) PA's hauling trains of reefers out of the citrus area--because they did factually run out their last miles doing that and there are photos out there to document the reefer extras.  However, finding Overland Santa Fe PA's with correct paint jobs (some bad custom work was done) was very difficult, and you could usually only find the EMD repowered 51LAC units available to buy (51B became 51C during rebuilding).  To this day it seems the EMD repowered ATSF units are still the easiest to find.  Then to paint them correctly with all the stainless versus aluminum areas...well my painter who was and still is fantastic wanted more money than I thought it was worth to do the correct paint job with the illuminated number boards, etc. so I gave up on that and sold the models.

John

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Posted by Paul3 on Monday, June 20, 2022 1:14 AM

John (PRR8259),
I only personally know about the OMI PAs in NH.  We all have our areas of expertise in this hobby of ours, and in my experience with the half dozen OMI NH PAs I've worked on, they all had the stupid floppy coupler doors.  The other OMI PAs that my fellow club members own had no coupler doors, just open pilots.

Being a Rapido worker, of course I care about getting all the railroad models we do correct, not just NH.  In fact, it's literally my job to point out any errors, but I am not and have never claimed to be an expert on all railroads.  Give me good photos to compare with and I'll find a model's flaws, but who on earth could possibly be an expert on everything that Rapido (or Athearn or Atlas or BLI, etc.) has made or plans to make?  In the past 18 months, I've worked on everything from British goods wagons to U25Bs to Turboliners to buses to Impalas (and so much more). 

The NH OMI pictures you linked to are interesting in that I've never seen one of these in person before.  The brass collectors I know never bought any of these, just the earlier ones.  Still, you have to admit that coupler doors aren't really "doors" as much as a plug that screws into the front coupler post.  And there is still zero detail behind the pilot that some are complaining about.  At least the Rapido model has the full Barco piping (steam line) and crash bars.

AFAIK, every Rapido PA model is fully equipped with all appropriate external nose and pilot details that match the paint scheme and era modeled.  Look at the Rapido sample photo for ATSF vs. the prototype photo:

Rapido:
https://files.constantcontact.com/b02e8bb6001/03667d5a-2511-438d-9266-39665e9cd3c7.jpg

Prototype:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5c/c8/cd/5cc8cd7929ba13f7b8e0764dbba1f3ab.jpg

I see 5 air hoses on either side of the coupler, I see the cut lever handles and a grab above each, and there's a Barco (steam pipe) under the coupler.  About the only pilot differences between the above pics I see is that the sheetmetal pilot cover plate over the Barco is not present on the model.  What else is missing from the Rapido model's pilot compared to the real ATSF unit? 

I'm not quite sure I understand your comment on the window "width" getting narrower towards the center post.  Did you mean to say window height instead?  If so, I disagree.  I think the window openings are close to if not actually dead on; it's the glass that's throwing it off visually for some people.  And again, the glass is not really thick, but it can look like it.  The glass is really only 0.032" thick.  However, the stepped section of glass around it is an additional 0.032".

One other issue to keep in mind is that the prototype rebuilding photos we're comparing the model to don't have the windows installed, nor have the aluminum & rubber window gaskets, which may throw off some proportions.

 

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Posted by PRR8259 on Sunday, June 19, 2022 10:57 PM

Paul--

Overland did a better job on the non-New Haven PA's.  It seems all you care about is the NH version.  I understand you are first and foremost a NH fan, but there were other versions modeled, and with at least 3 different model runs, the last many years later than the first 2, some of them were decent models.

Yes, some pilot doors were poor, but there also were multiple different pilot doors and some actually fit pretty well (see MKT units, and Missouri Pacific the final run).  Oh--and this New Haven unit from the final run:

HO Brass Train OMI NH 087010016.1 Overland Models (brasstrains.com)

However, it does appear that Overland's cab front windows were clearly not updated from before, and were indeed incorrect even on the very last run.

Some of the other Overland PA versions in addition to the regular air hoses HAD multiple hoses mounted to the front of the pilot on both sides of the coupler box (you had to bend them slightly out of the way in order get enough coupler swing for a Kadee coupler--but being brass, one could do that).  So they weren't all "plain jane" pilots, and some had more details on them than what Rapido is currently showing.  I do not know what they were for, be it for mu or not, but they were there.  

I looked at some of the before? or early restoration photos of Doyle's PA at the link you cited, and it appears the width of the front windows on Rapido's model seems to be decreasing too much as the window approaches the center of the nose.  Is that specific enough for you?  The window thickness of the model may be off-putting for some.  Is there any way they can make the front window section a little bit thinner?  It appears too thick.

John

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, June 19, 2022 6:08 AM

After my experience with two pairs of Proto 2000 PA/PB consists, I will never own another PA/PB from any manufacturer. The very mention of a PA or PB makes me shudder.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Saturday, June 18, 2022 5:19 PM

Reviewing all this, I'm sure glad I don't want a PA/PB...now if it was a FA/FB in LNE colors, it might be a different story. Amazing what you can do with black and white, with just a splash of color. Rather like a tuxedo with a boutonniere

I don't even model the LNE but I think I might just buy an FA/FB pair anyway

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, June 18, 2022 7:44 AM

Paul,

The Bachmann passenger cars have all been moved to the Silver Series line and now have a wide swing coupler box that no longer swivels with the truck.

The same upgrade is on the newer versions of the doodlebug, I can take a picture later.

The "rareness" of shorter cars by the 50's is likely true, but was very regional.

The B&O Cincinnation cars lasted to the end of passenger service on the B&O, built at MtClare in 1946 on old heavyweight frames, the longest cars where 79' over the pulling faces, so basically 75' cars.

I believe most of the SP daylight cars stayed in service a long time as well, mostly only 77' long.

Yes, the Western Maryland had simple roster of heavyweights and small roster of two classes of Pacifics - they had a few newer cars, and few 85' louge cars of various types. They too were big rebuilders of older equipment in their own shops.

Yes, I'n not a prototype railfan guy either, I have about zero interest in modern trains. My idea of railfaning is a 45 minute drive to Strasburg for the day, or a 45 minute drive to the B&O museum, or one of the several other tourist lines near here.

Alway good to here from you,

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Paul3 on Saturday, June 18, 2022 12:42 AM

Sheldon,
Well, I did say it was a slight disagreement.  Wink

BTW, AFAIK the Spectrum cars still have the swivel coupler boxes.

I hear ya' about the Jay-Bee coupler pads.  I haven't done as many as yourself, but I have done dozens of them both for me and my fellow club members: Spectrum, Con-Cor, Rivarossi, Athearn, etc.

A friend of mine models the WM, and I give him the business about his lack of passenger trains.  Smile  I don't think WM bought a new passenger car after 1930, right?  All heavyweights, IIRC.  Great railroad to model...but not if you're into passenger operations.

Historically, yes, there were many sub-80' cars but by the 1950s they were increasingly rare.  IMHO (other than coaches and head end cars), the 85' car represented a vast majority of the US/Canadian car fleet after 1930.  Sure, there were exceptions, as you point out, but by no means were 72' cars common in your modeled era.  For me, as a NH guy, I can't justify 72' cars.  As a home road guy, you can!  Big Smile

Yeah, the C&O GW set.  A fellow club member has one.  Not bad, really.  The engine certainly looks nice. 

Modeling real places is difficult, tho' certainly Jason Shron is getting it done.  His latest picture post on his FB Brockville Sub group is darn good.  Others are also excelling at modeling real places like Tony Koester, Chris Adams, Randy Hammill, Joe Smith, etc.

Joe Smith: http://signalstation199.blogspot.com/
Chris Adams: http://blog.thevalleylocal.net/
Randy Hammill: http://www.newbritainstation.com/
(All NH modelers...sorry; excellent modeling, tho')

Personally, real railfanning kinda bores me to tears.  I have little interest in hopping in a car, driving for hundreds of miles to a remote location, sitting for hours to watch a freight train that may or may not ever go by while battling bugs, heat, cold, or rain.  Sounds like fishing.  I'd much rather be running a local freight or a yard switcher with a switch list and a fast clock than watch trains go by.  Maybe that explains our different approaches to the hobby?

John (PRR8259),
The Overland PA's have zero details around the coupler pocket behind the pilot sheetmetal.  They don't even have a coupler pocket in the first place, just the Kadee box with the ears on it.  The coupler doors on the Overland models (if equipped) are very, very wrong, at least on the NH models.  The real ones were double hinged that folded flat against the pilot but the model ones have a single hinge that opens like a clamshell.  The Overland ones flop around so they hit grade crossings and can't stay level or stay shut.  They are open at the top when they should be enclosed and they don't allow for most anything to couple to the nose of the PA without a long shank coupler.  For a friend of mine, I actually cut them off his model and glued them "open" to either side of the coupler opening so at least they'd look right and allow coupling.  IOW, the pilots of Overland NH PAs were pretty terrible.  Not only didn't they look good, they inhibited the operation of the model.

Overland NH PA-1 with the awful pilot doors flopping around (look at the 8th pic, taken head on; ugh!):
https://www.brasstrains.com/BrassGuide/Pdg/Detail/12629/HO-Diesel-Electric-Overland-Models-5746-PA-PASSENGER-New-Haven-PA-1

Actual NH PA-1 with the pilot doors open:
https://rapidotrains.com/media/images/nh-pa.jpg

The "flaw" with the front coupler & coupler box is that it sticks out further than scale.  This is, of course, to help out the guys that want to run it around sharp layout curves.  If they put the coupler in the scale location, coupled passenger equipment would probably derail on curves and people would complain.  The good news with this design is that one can remove the existing coupler pocket and either move it back an ~1/8" by drilling and tapping a new mounting hole or replace it with something more scale sized.  It's an easy upgrade for those who want it.

Here's a nice shot of an ATSF PA pilot:
https://www.american-rails.com/images/2858717210876727000123001.jpg

What appears to be missing from the Rapido model is the bottom operating cut lever & brackets right under the coupler box lid.  I don't know of any other company that's made that.  And keep in mind that putting in the cut lever would make it pretty difficult to get at the coupler box to remove it.  For years, people have complained about Rapido putting too much detail under models that interfere with operation.  Now people are complaining that they need more details that would interfere with operation.  Sigh.

Sure, some people have said the Rapido PA front windows "don't look right" but please note that none of them have offered any specifics as to why.  When someone can't articulate what the issue is, I tend to suspect it's not really an issue.

One thing I've noticed is that all the model photos show the angle looking down on the model while all the photos people have posted to show the "issue" are looking up from trackside.

Look at this "down on" D&RGW PA:
https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/92676/

Here's another, this time a ATSF unit:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5c/c8/cd/5cc8cd7929ba13f7b8e0764dbba1f3ab.jpg

Compare that to the Rapido photos:
https://files.constantcontact.com/b02e8bb6001/251851f5-0c75-4870-897c-9cc8030b5dd0.jpg

https://files.constantcontact.com/b02e8bb6001/71da8a0f-a601-4ca2-9b0a-9b296f4b354f.jpg

The windshields look like a match to me.  They are arched at the top (not flat like Proto).  The windows taper towards the center post (unlike the Overland).  The brow over the windows is a good match to the real thing (unlike the Proto's heavy unibrow).  And so on.  What, specifically, is "off"?

At worst, the front window glass can look odd because of the draft angle of the glass part's "plug".  I think people are seeing the inside of the glass "plug" at the bottom and sides.  For example, look at the Rapido D&RGW model pic above and compare the near window with the glare (where you can't see the inside bottom and sides) to the far window without the glare (where you can see 'em). 

Personally, I think most of the problem is that people are used to the Overlands or the Proto PAs which are quite wrong.  It's like how people complained about the Spectrum heavyweight passenger cars at first because they didn't look "right".  In reality, were all got used to out-of-proportion Rivarossi cars which were always wrong.

Yes, the NKP unit has been rebuilt, but I think you're confusing which one is which.  The NKP was the loco in the best condition.  The Smithsonian kept the one in bad condition, which they then donated to the Texas group which is slowly restoring it to ATSF.  The Texas group just got the windshield and cab roof section from an FPA-4 that they are going to use to replace the crushed elements of the PA cab.  The NKP, OTOH, didn't have any cab damage.  Here's some history shots when the NKP project started; note how good the cab looks:  http://www.trainweb.org/dhvm/history/history_pas-return_Doyle-Brooklyn.htm

Name the last plastic model in our hobby that has been plated.  Walthers did the Amfleet & Metroliner cars in plated finish 8 years ago in 2014 and I can't think of a more recent product.  From talking to Rapido and ScaleTrains employees (some of whom also used to work for Athearn) at the RPM show last week, plating as was done years ago on the Genesis ATSF F7 is unlikely to ever be done again due to the expense and toxic nature of the plating (China has really cracked down on pollution).  Not to mention the high failure rate of the plating, which of course means more money to replace the bad ones.  The factories hate it.  Ask Lee English.

Rapido has painted the ATSF & D&H PAs in both stainless and aluminum paint.  You can see the difference clear as day when you hold one in your hand (like I did last week).  The pilot and rear is aluminum, the sides and roof are stainless.  Perhaps some who have seen the pics are expecting body panels to be different from the roof as on the ATSF F7s when in reality they are the same (all stainless) on the PA.  The only place to really see the difference is at the rear where the two paint colors meet.  The pilot is kinda too far away from the sides to really see the difference.

I also guess some people just want a mirror finish on their ATSF/D&H PA stainless steel sections and that's just not realistic (especially in use).  All the Walthers plated cars are way too shiny for my taste (they look toy-like to me).  Rapido used the same stainless steel paint on the ATSF/D&H PA as they have used on their stainless steel passenger cars (either their Canadian cars or their NH cars, I can't remember which) and no one has ever complained about those not being shiny enough.

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Posted by PRR8259 on Friday, June 17, 2022 2:20 PM

Paul--

Other people have commented on the seeming lack of detail around the front draft gear on Rapido's model.  It does appear to look a bit unfinished.  Overland at least got the front draft gear doors on some of their versions to look pretty good though it is possible some were not quite correct.

Likewise, a number of people have commented that the front windows just do not look right on Rapido's model.  If it's supposed to look angry, which I could sorta agree with, then it seems to look too angry.  A comparison of prototype photos which seem to mostly be 3/4 view seems to look different from the model.  Something just does not look right, and there seem to be a number of folks who agree with that statement.

Since the "NKP" PA is being reconstructed from a very heavily damaged unit, with the better unit (at least cosmetically) having gone to the Smithsonian, how do we know that the window contours on the NKP unit (if it was 3D scanned) are correct?

Also--stainless side panels should be plated and not painted.  If painted they likely will not look like the high sheen flat stainless panels the real ones had.  There should be noticeable contrast between aluminum painted and stainless areas.  (Again, during rebuilding D&H even obtained brand new stainless panels from the OEM manufacturer who was still in business at that time according to the PA4 locomotive book).  Pity for the Smithsonian ATSF unit the manufacturer is now long gone.  Whether or not the roofs were stainless some of us could never figure out.  Obviously in later years, some units had the roofs painted aluminum, but prototype photos don't always seem to agree with that.

John

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Thursday, June 16, 2022 8:12 AM

Paul, we don't disagree about the Spectrum cars at all, I agree, once you fix the couplers and adjust/lube the trucks they are very nice. My comment was directed at the swivel couplers on the originals. And while PRR cars, they are all acceptable stand ins for older B&O cars.

Trust me, I know more about jaybee coupler pads than most, 100 or so cars worth.

Western Mayland passenger service was mostly all day coach trains, with mail and express. Again the Athearn cars are amazingly close, including length, with a little kit bashing.

The stripped down nature of the Athearn cars makes them easy kit bash and super detail candidates. 

Another thought about car length. The New Haven had good reasons for having all long cars, but any complete historical review of passenger equipment shows wide ranges in car lengths. It is amazing how many cars were only 75' to 78' long, even early and home built smooth side equipment. So, come on, once you add some underbody detail, the Athearn heavyweights have their place, and while the window arrangements are generic, the Athearn and ConCor streamliners are OK for a lot of those earlier cars. SP daylight cars are prime example of streamlined cars that were not 85' long.

As do the MDC Harriman cars. 

They are only short by a few scale feet, not 13'.

C&O cars, the Spectrum George Washington set was pretty close, streamlined stuff from Walthers has been pretty close, not perfect, still pieces missing. I went generic with C&O and called it done.

A thought or two on modeling style. I get the prototype thing, I like my C&O, B&O and WM stuff correct when available/practical, I have Spring Mills Depot wagon top hoppers and cabooses, Fox Valley and F&C wagon top box cars, etc, agreed, no expense spared.

But when it comes to the layout, I have never been able to get into the idea of trying to accurately model real places or only model the railroad right of way. I like the old fashioned idea of modeling the larger scene and non railroad features.

And I like rail fan running as much as actual operating sessions, so my layouts have always been designed for both display running and prototype operations. I like believably long trains, and I really like the idea of modeling only one "place", with less compression, and watching the trains come and go, rather than trying to model both "ends" of a line.

I don't mind a little fiction in the story the layout tells, it just needs to be good fiction.....

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Paul3 on Wednesday, June 15, 2022 11:10 PM

Sheldon,
Ah, yes, I remember those days of bad passenger car models.  Con-Cor & Rivarossi were considered top notch; Athearn BB and Roundhouse were lower tier; and then you had either Tyco/Bachman/Life-Like junk or old metal/wood cars like O.K. or Ambroid & LaBelle.  Brass was either out of my reach or didn't run well...or both!  Smile

The Bachmann Spectrum cars I have to slightly disagree with you on.  Yes, limited selection (PRR coach, PRR combine, diner, Pullman, Observation), but if you bought the Jay-Bee coupler conversion pads and ripped out those dumb swiveling coupler boxes (and added a drop of oil to every axle bearing), the Spectrum cars operate quite well.  I still have eight Spectrum Pullman cars I re-painted and haul behind some Hudson and Pacific engines.  My cars really roll and I've never had derailments with them.  I actually kinda like them.  I just wish they were models of a more common Pullman prototype, but oh well. 

Yeah, there's not much in B&O pass. cars that I know of.  But that's what you get when the railroad modernizes old heavyweights instead of buying new cars of a standard design.  Wink  I'll take your word on C&O cars, but even I know that WM was not exactly a passenger road. 

I did buy the inaccurate NH cars that were available back in the day (Bev-Bel Athearn BBs and Rivarossis), but I'm more than happy to expand my fleet with Rapido, Walthers, and Atlas/Branchline cars which are so much better.  Imagine if someone decided to make high-end B&O cars that you want very badly.  That's what it is like with me with these Rapido NH cars.  I'm going broke buying Rapido NH passenger cars but I'm so happy about it.  Gimme more!  Dinner

DrW,
I'm afraid the brake cylinders are probably crooked on most, if not all, Rapido PAs.  It's impossible to know for sure until they arrive.  The Rapido CAD files show them all straight; they were supposed to be attached so that they are level with the body sill as it was drawn by the engineers.  Unfortunately, it appears that the workers at the factory decided on their own to make them parallel with the top of the truck sideframes instead because it probably "looked right" to them.  They do stick up and look like they are in the way when level.  I'm relatively certain the truck side frames were built as a sub-assembly, then mounted to the truck gear boxes, then put in the chassis, and then the shell was put on the chassis and put in the box to be shipped.  As such, no one at the factory noticed that they were not level with the body sill.

Some good news is that the brake cylinders all have a single round post into a round hole on the sideframe.  It might be possible to gently twist the brake cylinders so that they level with the body sill.  I will have to ask if someone has tried that yet at Rapido and what the results are.

About the front windshields, Genesis F's vs. Rapido PA: I think the Genesis F's front windows are installed from the outside, not the inside.  As such, they don't need to have a step in the glass to make them flush.  But don't quote me on that.  I don't own any Genesis F's, so I cannot confirm it.  I presume it's a bit tricky to put them in that way.  I will ask.

With the steam gen. car, the NH actually had 10 of them all told.  (I'm surprised that Rapido didn't make any).  The NH cars were off the shelf models built new for use with freight electrics hauling passenger trains in winter.


DrW
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Posted by DrW on Wednesday, June 15, 2022 8:13 PM

Paul3

DrW,
The windshield glass is tricky because the outside surface of the glass is supposed to be very close to being flush with the surrounding sheet metal (along with a raised aluminum window gasket).  The thickness of the plastic shell is much greater than the real thing by necessity, which means the model's glass has to have a "step" to fit in the opening from the inside like an angled (like a parallelogram) plug.  The model's glass should actually be pretty thin in cross section; what we're seeing at the sides and bottom of the front windows are the sides of the plug, not the thickness of the plastic window itself.  I suspect the glass was made angled like it was in order to fit straight in to the shell from the inside.  Note that there is no apparent extra "thickness" at the top of each window; if the glass was actually thick, we'd see it at the top, too.

Paul,

Thank you very much for your detailed response. I am happy to learn that the Alco PA/PB models will have the brake cylinders in the correct position, and I am looking forward to receiving the pair I ordered. I understand that the thickness of the shell determines the "apparent" thickness of the windows. I just wonder how Genesis/Highliner manage to have thinner window pillars in their F3/7s. Admittedly, I am comparing here the PA pics with an actual Genesis model; thus, the final comparison has to wait until I have the Rapido model in my hand.

As to the Santa Fe steam generator car, I got a good deal on the brass model by TCY. I agree that a steam generator car will not find wide interest, especially for railroads that do not reach Canada or the northern US, like the Santa Fe. Even in the prototype, they were rare - Santa Fe rebuilt only five 6-axle tenders into steam generator cars. Pics of them as part of a train (and not parked in a yard) are extremely rare - I only have one. They were supposedly used mostly in troop trains in WWII and the Korean War. TCY produced 50 units of the model, and they only very rarely show up on the market, recently with a price tag 50% higher than the 2005 MSRP.

JW

   

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Wednesday, June 15, 2022 6:42 PM

Paul,

Completely agreed, I get it.

To be completely clear about passenger cars, when I was as that acquisition/decission point in my modeling the choices for passenger cars were pretty poor.

AHM/IHC - a mix of somewhat acurate, mis matched poor quality stuff that is amittedly good kitbash fodder.

Athearn/ConCor/Roundhouse - selectively compressed, generic, but with otherwise good lines and good running qualities, and better kitbash fodder in a lot of ways.

Brass.......... Often not all that good.......

Bachmann had just entered the market - early Spectrum cars, limited selection, so-so running qualities.

Walthers was in the earliest phases of plastic passenger cars - not a big selection.

No Broadway, Rapido, MTH, etc.

Based on the roads I planned to model, and the home road freelance thing, I made the choices I made - I may not have invested much in the cars themselves, but I invested a lot in detail parts and construction time.

I'm still happy with that choice considering the poor representation of B&O passenger cars to this day. C&O is a little better, Western Maryland is a joke.

An Athearn heavyweight coach with 4 wheel trucks is actually pretty accurate for the WM, kitbash a combine, letter a bagage car, there you go - they did not have much 85' equipment.......

I have a selection of fairly "correct" passenger cars, Branchline cars that the B&O had, Spectrum cars that are close. But I don't loose any sleep over the ones that are generic.

You can take a smooth side B&O ConCor 72' car, put heavyweight trucks under it, and be closer to correct for the home rebuilt B&O cars than any of these manufacturers have bothered to offer..

I was not going to wait around for correct models years ago, I still won't.

I was already 170 cars invested when the selection got better, and it still is lacking for the roads I model.

And most people don't know the difference, just like I'm not a New Haven expert, except maybe regarding piggyback. 

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Paul3 on Wednesday, June 15, 2022 2:02 PM

Sheldon,
I don't understand the mentality of cost being a factor in modifying (by improving) your models, especially since you've said many times that you don't sell anything.  If you're never going to sell it, why care what it cost?  Just make it the way you want it.  Why does it matter if a passenger car cost $20 or $120?

For the Rapido PA front coupler position, I'm sure it was set where it was for the tight radius curves that many people have as it is a rigid pocket (unlike the swinging Proto PA coupler).  Fortunately, the way Rapido has made the front and rear couplers, the boxes can be replaced (they are not molded in place), and if you want to move the couplers back, there's plenty of room to drill and tap a new coupler mounting hole behind the original one.  

About curves and long cars, we've had this discussion before.  I agree that long cars whenever they are on short curves are unrealistic.  However, short cars are always unrealistic no matter where they are.  I'm modeling specific models; the closer to the prototype, the better (for me).  I'm just not interested in compromising on length.  I'd rather have a 1/8" gap between diaphragms (with the slack pulled out) than live with a 72' car model of an 85' prototype.  You, OTOH, feel the opposite way.  And while I respect that, it's just not for me.

Just like I don't model a home road, I model the NH.  I'm a NH fan first and a modeler second.  I have absolutely no interest in inventing my own railroad to model.  It's too much like "make believe" for me.  My modeling goal is to tell the story of the NH and not big artistic impressions.  We're both modeling, just from different aspects.

I, too, am not interested in selling off my older models.  Heck, I still have my custom painted Athearn BB PA's.  But I'm still going to get some Rapido PAs.

 

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Wednesday, June 15, 2022 2:48 AM

Paul,

Yes Kadee did the close coupling - but it exists and it works. ALL my Proto PA's and E units are set up with it.

Just like my own standards for passenger car diaphragms with American Limited parts work.

I buy a $30 or even $50 passenger car and have to do some work to get what I want, OK. I'm not buying $120 (or more) passenger cars and still having to rebuild the coupler mounts and diaphragms.

The Rapido PA is likely more accurately dimensioned, I'm not arguing that - but the impression the various models give in the pictures that have been published do not impress me. Not sure what the problem is, but I see lots of little assembly flaws? And the front coupler "way" out there, with the coupler box so visible, the Proto wider opening with the Kadee kit setting it back to a more prototype position is more tollerable to my eyes, and operationally more acceptable.

All my PA's say "ATLANTIC CENTRAL", the other three roads I model did not own them. So road specific details are a low value point for me. I picked the Proto version I liked decades ago - dynamic brakes, 45 degree number boards.

I've never had any real problem with Proto handrails - but I don't lug my trains back and forth to a club - I don't even take them on or off the layout much. I don't own significantly more locos or rolling stock than the layout will hold or require. Once it goes on the rails it will generally stay there.

I have a bunch of Proto FA/FB's, the consists don't get uncoupled much, it is not part of my operational scheme for the most part.

In general, close coupling is a very important appearance feature for me. I even reduce the distance between some freight cars that are WAY too wide.

When I couple a passenger car to the front of my Proto PA's or E units, the diaphragms come right up on the buffer, and they operate just fine on my 36" and above curves.

Well when I preordered the PA's I was in for 2 A units and 2 B units, tell Jason I'm sorry that was not enough.

We all decide differently what is important to spend our time and money on and what is not.

Close coupling is about realistic impression of the whole train, more important to me than detailed accuracy of each car as long as they are "representitive".

Just like all these people who insist on "perfectly accurate" passenger cars and run them on 30" radius curves - to my eye they look rediculous as the little passengers have to jump the 3 foot gaps. Might as well be LIONEL, or stock Athearn cars on 18" radius.

My modeling goals are mostly about the big view artistic impression, not so much about being the engineer or being trackside. My layout will do that, but that is mainly reserved for the ISL that is "within" the larger layout.

Like I said earlier, the F30 flat cars are beautiful, but I'm not replacing 100 flat cars, many kitsbashed, painted and decaled, not just "popped out of a box".

OK, I'm way past my forum time allotment, take care.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Paul3 on Wednesday, June 15, 2022 12:09 AM

Full disclosure: I work for Rapido but only part time as a contractor.  I am not speaking for the company or Jason or anyone else, just me.  These are just my opinions only.

DrW,
The windshield glass is tricky because the outside surface of the glass is supposed to be very close to being flush with the surrounding sheet metal (along with a raised aluminum window gasket).  The thickness of the plastic shell is much greater than the real thing by necessity, which means the model's glass has to have a "step" to fit in the opening from the inside like an angled (like a parallelogram) plug.  The model's glass should actually be pretty thin in cross section; what we're seeing at the sides and bottom of the front windows are the sides of the plug, not the thickness of the plastic window itself.  I suspect the glass was made angled like it was in order to fit straight in to the shell from the inside.  Note that there is no apparent extra "thickness" at the top of each window; if the glass was actually thick, we'd see it at the top, too.

The Rapido steam generator car is just about as close to being 100% correct for Canadian steam gen. cars as one can get in HO scale plastic.  Jason, as I'm sure you're aware, needs them for his layout...and remember that Jason started Rapido because he wanted to make models for his own layout while selling enough of them to finance the whole thing.  And who wouldn't do that if they could?  I would.  Anyways, the issue is that Canada only has about 10% of the US population, and thus signficantly fewer model railroaders overall.  The only way to make enough money to cover the cost of running Canadian steam gen. cars was to sell them painted for as many US roads as would sell.  It's a very accurate Canadian car...just not accurately painted for US roads.  It's the same reason why Model Railroader sells advertising; something has to pay the bills, especially on oddball cars like a steam gen.  I mean, how many people are going to buy more than one of those?  (Other than Jason, that is.)  The other option was not to make the steam gen. car at all.  I don't particularly like foobies, but I understand the necessity of them at times.

John (PRR8259),
I can assure you that every Rapido CAD drawing shows all the truck brake cylinders mounted perfectly horizontal.  FWIW, just looking at brasstrains.com, not every Overland PA has perfectly straight brake cylinders, either.

Pilot details: the Overland models either have no couplers or they have Kadee #58s in regular Kadee #5-type boxes with the ears.  The Rapido models have Kadee-type clone couplers in plastic boxes that are no worse than the Kadee ones.  At least the Rapido ones are painted to match prototype paint schemes, unlike the Overland PAs.  The Overlands have even less pilot details than the Rapidos do.  I think what some people want are scale coupler boxes, and that perhaps is a 'bridge too far' for many home layouts.  I believe the Rapido coupler boxes can be removed and entirely replaced with scale boxes if someone wants to do that, but how many modelers do you think want that vs. how many would complain that their Rapido PA won't go around sharp curves without derailing the cars behind it?

The Overland PA windshields are entirely incorrect.  They have the same height from side to side when in reality PA windshields got narrower as they got closer to the center post.  Real PAs kinda look "angry" while the Overland PAs kinda look "surprised," or maybe with a sad, resigned expression.  Also, the Overland windshield bottoms follow the nose contour exactly.  Real PAs do not; they move slightly away from the nose top as they get closer to the sides of the loco.  So no, I do not think the Overland PAs look better than the Rapido ones.

Sheldon,
The Proto PAs do not look better than the Rapido ones, either.  The Proto PAs have a much too heavy "unibrow" look to their windshields.  Their windshields also have flat tops to them when the real PA windows are arched.  Combine that to the thick unibrow, and the Proto PAs have windshields that are too small in height and look 'squinty.'  And they aren't even trying to make them flush with the surrounding sheetmetal.  They are clearly recessed the thickness of the plastic shell, and same goes for the cab side windows and side portholes.  The side handrails are metal wire on the Rapidos, and you know how fragile the plastic ones are on the Protos.  The coupler cut levers are molded in place on the Protos, the headlights should not be flush with the nose grille but be recessed, and one should be able to tell if the headlight is a twin sealed beam, Gyralite, or a reflector.  Rapido PAs have all three kinds of lights; Proto PAs only have a weak but giant light bulb (or two) that spills out the bottom of the pilot like an old Athearn BB model. 

The Proto PA is a very nice model for 1998 when it was released; I know - I have nine of them (all NH...of course!).  But the Rapido model has waaaay more options and details and is much more accurate than the Proto. 

If you don't care how your current Proto models look (saying that you don't care that they are inaccurate), then why say your Protos look better?  Do looks matter or don't they?  I mean, to each their own.  If you're happy with the Proto PAs, enjoy them!  But you can't say looks don't matter and then say you're glad that your Protos look better.

And yes, Rapido pulled the plug on the Undec. units because so few people pre-ordered them.  No one can say they didn't try to make them, but facts are facts.  That being said, Rapido does have a policy that they will make Undec. models of anything if someone orders 6 of them (and in groups of 6; so like 6, 12, or 18, etc., not 7, 9, or 15).  They all have to be the same version, and they have to be a type they are already making in that run.  So for example, if you wanted 6 Undec. ATSF-version PAs, you could have gotten them in this run.  But if you wanted 6 Undec. PAs for a railroad they aren't making, then no.

And Sheldon...c'mon about the Proto close coupling.  The Proto E-unit and the Proto PA were so notoriously not close coupling that Kadee actually made a close coupling kit for them.  It was the Kadee #455 kit and yes, I bought several of them.  I just measured my own unmodified PAs, and back to back there's a 1/4" difference between unit diaphragms with the slack pulled out.  No, I'm not kidding.  That's like Athearn BB F-unit spacing.  The Proto FA-1s, OTOH, are so close coupling it's nigh impossible to uncouple them without a magnet or a derailment.  Smile

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Tuesday, June 14, 2022 11:32 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
I gave them a shot and preordered some undecorated PA's - they decided not to build them - seeing the finished models, glad it worked out the way it did.

Same here.

Not getting the Rapido undecorated PAs I pre-ordered was a blessing in disguise.

-Kevin

Living the dream.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Tuesday, June 14, 2022 9:17 PM

DrW

 

 
n012944

 

The Rapido buisness model is for people that want a model that is as close to the prototype as possible. 

 

 

If this is the case, why do they make foobies? Their Santa Fe steam generator car does not even look remotely like the prototype; ATSF 9000-9004 were based on 6-axle tenders, not on 4-axle boxcars. Rapido's Santa Fe steam generator car is just a (probably) Canadian prototype painted in yellow and navy blue.

 

Because they need to sell enough models to cover the cost of production so they can make the correct models for those who care. 

And there are modelers out there who will buy them, even knowing they are not correct for a particular roadname.

GMD built the prototype of the Rapido model, I have no idea if roads other than those in Canada ever had that exact car. 

Most steam generator cars were home made by the railroads and all were unique.

Not much need for them here in the temperate Mid Atlantic, a couple PA's had more than a enough steam capacity for trains in this climate.

I knew it was just a matter of time before that bad word, "foobie" would rear its ugly head in this thread. 

Nobody is, or was ever, trying to intentionally "fool" anyone - it was, and still is, a pratical consideration to provide people with models since it is impossible to make a correct model of every piece of rolling stock for every day/time/era/place/roadname in history.

Sheldon

    

DrW
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Posted by DrW on Tuesday, June 14, 2022 7:47 PM

n012944

 

The Rapido buisness model is for people that want a model that is as close to the prototype as possible. 

If this is the case, why do they make foobies? Their Santa Fe steam generator car does not even look remotely like the prototype; ATSF 9000-9004 were based on 6-axle tenders, not on 4-axle boxcars. Rapido's Santa Fe steam generator car is just a (probably) Canadian prototype painted in yellow and navy blue.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Tuesday, June 14, 2022 4:29 PM

n012944

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 At this point it is unlikely Rapido will ever sell me a locomotive.......

 

 

 

 

 

I am sure they are fine with that, as it does not seem you match the customer they are making their models for for.  The Rapido buisness model is for people that want a model that is as close to the prototype as possible.  If you are fine with modeled on grab irons or passenger cars that are not scale length then you are not their intended customer.

Of course that is fine, as the hobby is big enough for people who don't value thos details, along with those cusstomers that do.  I am sure Athearn knows that I am not a customer for their Roundhouse line, or Bachmann does not market their models to me, and that is okay as well.

 

Again, completely agreed. I just bought a few of the new Rapido F30 flat cars as an addition to the piggyback fleet - undecorated kits for my ATLANTIC CENTRAL.

And, as stated before, I have lots of stuff like Spring Mills Depot, Fox Valley, Intermountain, Athearn Genesis F units, etc, etc.

But as I begin construction of another layout that will require 1000 freight cars, I have no plans to replace the "other" 100 piggyback cars I have built, kit bashed, and bought over the last 55 years.

I have new Bowser RS-3's on preorder, C&O and Western Maryland, but I have no intention of limiting my modeling to RTR models that are "perfect", especially considering two factors, my existing investment of time and money, and the lack of suitable models in that "class" of products for a number items in my era.

So actually, I am a potential Rapido customer, even for a locomotive. But they decided not to make undecorated versions, which I did have on preorder when first announced, then they canceled those items. Seeing the early photos of the actual model, I'm not impressed - price asside. My 30 year old Proto models are better in several ways - like scale front coupler position and close coupling, similar to these Proto E units:

 

But one thing that is REAL important to me, is this - working diaphragms that touch, and close coupled passenger cars. Something none of these high end manufactures have managed to do completely or perfectly, yet I have no trouble doing it, be it on a Branchline kit or a kit bashed Athearn or ConCor car.

 

Look at that, Athearn cars with wire grab irons.

 

And a Branchline car and a ConCor car working in perfect harmony.

Yes, we all do what is important to us.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by n012944 on Tuesday, June 14, 2022 3:15 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 At this point it is unlikely Rapido will ever sell me a locomotive.......

 

 

 

I am sure they are fine with that, as it does not seem you match the customer they are making their models for for.  The Rapido buisness model is for people that want a model that is as close to the prototype as possible.  If you are fine with modeled on grab irons or passenger cars that are not scale length then you are not their intended customer.

Of course that is fine, as the hobby is big enough for people who don't value thos details, along with those cusstomers that do.  I am sure Athearn knows that I am not a customer for their Roundhouse line, or Bachmann does not market their models to me, and that is okay as well.

An "expensive model collector"

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Posted by PRR8259 on Monday, June 13, 2022 11:50 PM

DrW
PRR8259

I'm thinking the Overland Models Alco PA's look better, despite the many years that have passed since they were made.

 

Well, if you really want to splurge, Division Point accepts reservations for their upcoming PA/PBs. Judging by their recent Diesel locomotive production (I have seen the 2017 Alco RSD-5 and the 2019 Baldwin DT-6-6-2000), the models will be top-notch. Unfortunately, so will be the prices. The DT-6-6-2000 had an MSRP of $1,600. I would guess the PA/PBs will be in the $2,000 range per unit.

I once played with HO brass but that is way too rich for me now.  One son in college...one following.  I have to be happy with Athearn Genesis and Genesis 2.0.  

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, June 13, 2022 7:02 PM

PRR8259

They burned me on some locos.

I have one really nice Rapido CR B36-7.

 

For me, Rapido is just late to the party. Speaking of diesels, they only make 5 locos in my era, all of which I have plenty of from other makers, with which I am perfectly happy. AND/OR Rapido has failed to offer roadnames and color schemes of interest to me.

To whatever degree these various Rapido models are "better" than what I have, is, in my opinion, well past the point of deminishing return. So while I might consider them for an addition to the roster, I would never be replacing what I have unless they would become unserviceable.

I gave them a shot and preordered some undecorated PA's - they decided not to build them - seeing the finished models, glad it worked out the way it did. For that money I can buy lots of NOS Proto units and repair/refit as needed.

Sheldon 

    

DrW
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Posted by DrW on Monday, June 13, 2022 6:09 PM

PRR8259

I'm thinking the Overland Models Alco PA's look better, despite the many years that have passed since they were made.

Well, if you really want to splurge, Division Point accepts reservations for their upcoming PA/PBs. Judging by their recent Diesel locomotive production (I have seen the 2017 Alco RSD-5 and the 2019 Baldwin DT-6-6-2000), the models will be top-notch. Unfortunately, so will be the prices. The DT-6-6-2000 had an MSRP of $1,600. I would guess the PA/PBs will be in the $2,000 range per unit.

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Posted by PRR8259 on Monday, June 13, 2022 2:42 PM

They burned me on some locos.

I have one really nice Rapido CR B36-7.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, June 13, 2022 5:46 AM

PRR8259

They need to stop announcing so many new products and make only some of the new products but actually get them right.

Therapy? What therapy?  related to trains somehow?

I mean this hobby can lead to addictive tendencies, and I've been working on being content with the trains I have...finally to a good place there...new fleet of SD45-2's from Athearn.  Few items on pre-order for next year but 80% already paid for via others that were sold.  If the pre-orders never show up I can be happy with the fleet that is here. I don't have to have more.

Only thing I'm really looking for is a good plate B, as delivered 1975 era Railbox box car.

I have all the locos and freight cars I'd ever need.

John

 

It was a joke - rivet counter therapy/OCD therapy.

I could have gone down that road years ago and realized it was stealing the fun from the hobby.

I'm sure I know more about what is "wrong" (inaccurate) with my models than any ten people who will ever view my layout - guess what, I don't care.

I am much more interested in the bigger picture, the artistic impression, the overall "effect" of the layout, rather than obsessing over the close up details of each piece of equipment.

That's why in 55 years I have never sold off my trains and bought new ones.......

They run the whole range from Athearn and Varney metal cars to the finest RTR stuff available today, from Athearn Blue Box kits to models I have carefully built or kit bashed from scratch or from craftsman kits - and I am fine with that.

At this point it is unlikely Rapido will ever sell me a locomotive.......

Sheldon

    

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Posted by PRR8259 on Sunday, June 12, 2022 10:43 PM

They need to stop announcing so many new products and make only some of the new products but actually get them right.

Therapy? What therapy?  related to trains somehow?

I mean this hobby can lead to addictive tendencies, and I've been working on being content with the trains I have...finally to a good place there...new fleet of SD45-2's from Athearn.  Few items on pre-order for next year but 80% already paid for via others that were sold.  If the pre-orders never show up I can be happy with the fleet that is here. I don't have to have more.

Only thing I'm really looking for is a good plate B, as delivered 1975 era Railbox box car.

I have all the locos and freight cars I'd ever need.

John

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