FWIW, for 2022 the capital gains tax rate for single filers with a taxable income under $40,400 (or married filing joint under $80,800) is 0%. (Above that it's 15% up to $400-800K.)
wjstixThat may be the real issue here - payment companies don't have the resources to figure out who is a business and who isn't, so will just send the 1099-K to everyone and let them figure it out. Remember the 1099-K is a business tax form.
You set up an ebay account as either an individual or a business, so they do have a way of knowing. I think the issue is that the Recovery Act does NOT distinguish between who gets the 1099-k. Payments companys are required to send it to anyone, even individuals. That's the issue. The Act should say that only businesses that receive $600 or more should get the 1099-k.
wjstixProfit or loss only is a factor for businesses. If you bought something retail, it's yours to give away or sell as you wish. It's not the same as a business that buys and sells to make money
But if you sell it for more than you paid...it is still subject to tax. For an individual, this is called a capital gain. Sell a stock for more than you paid several years ago, you owe tax. Sell a brass model train for more than you paid 3 decades ago, you owe tax. Always have, so nothing has changed (except now if you use ebay or Venmo, etc, the IRS knows you sold something. ).
So even if you are an individual and should not get the 1099-K, you still owe tax on the profit/gain (proceeds in excess of cost), so a regular 1099 is probably warranted anyway.
In the end, anything normally sold for more than it costs is subject to tax, whether its profit for a business or a gain for an individual. It always has been subjected to tax. What kind of forms and what kind of tax it is starts to get in the weeds.
IMO, the easiest thing to do is simply raise the threshold from $600 to about $3,000 per year.
- Douglas
wjstix A transaction that was taxable in the past is still taxable. If it wasn't, it still isn't. Getting a 1099 doesn't make it taxable; not getting one doesn't make it not taxable.
A transaction that was taxable in the past is still taxable. If it wasn't, it still isn't. Getting a 1099 doesn't make it taxable; not getting one doesn't make it not taxable.
wjstixProfit or loss only is a factor for businesses. If you bought something retail, it's yours to give away or sell as you wish. It's not the same as a business that buys and sells to make money.
Rich
Alton Junction
DoughlessApparently, the law does not require payment services companies to figure out of the payee is an individual or a business.
That may be the real issue here - payment companies don't have the resources to figure out who is a business and who isn't, so will just send the 1099-K to everyone and let them figure it out. Remember the 1099-K is a business tax form.
DoughlessNothing about tax law has changed.
Exactly. A transaction that was taxable in the past is still taxable. If it wasn't, it still isn't. Getting a 1099 doesn't make it taxable; not getting one doesn't make it not taxable. Many people get 1099s for income (like Social Security) that ends up not being taxable on their 1040.
Profit or loss only is a factor for businesses. If you bought something retail, it's yours to give away or sell as you wish. It's not the same as a business that buys and sells to make money.
Not an audit, but a letter from the IRS requesting the tax due on unreported income. These 1099s from eBay, PayPal, etc will trigger their computers. They have to be acknowledged somewhere on your return ... on the 1040 or one of your schedules. When I list them on my return, I will write "nontaxable proceeds from online garage sale" (an IRS term), and then enter a zero in the column ... excluding the amount from my taxable income.
Doughless ANYONE who receives more than $600 in payments...by law...will receive a 1099-k. Its up to the recipient to figure out if they owe taxes on the 1099-k amount
ANYONE who receives more than $600 in payments...by law...will receive a 1099-k. Its up to the recipient to figure out if they owe taxes on the 1099-k amount
The chances are extraordinarily high that there will not be any taxes due from these sales since the vast majority of such sales, almost always used items, were made at a loss. The rare exception may be an auction where two determined bidders will pay any cost to win the auction, for whatever the reason.
There is no confusion about what has been asserted. Nothing about tax law has changed. The elimination of paper and coin and switch to digitial payments means that previously uncollected taxes will now start to be collected. The IRS made the reporting threshold at $600 to require the digital payments services middlemen to help collect the taxes owed. No more stuffing dollar bills in a shoebox.
Feel free to check Etsy and Venmo's site info. They also understand the new law to say that ANYONE who receives more than $600 in payments...by law...will receive a 1099-k. Its up to the recipient to figure out if they owe taxes on the 1099-k amount (which will include proceeds that are subject to tax or not subject to tax)
Apparently, the law does not require payment services companies to figure out of the payee is an individual or a business. Both can owe taxes anyway.
Apparently, the IRS is assuming that if you receive sale proceeds more than $600 in any one year you are not having a garage sale of household items being sold for cents on the dollar, they are assuming you have a business even if you are not designating it as a business. So everyone over the threshold gets the business form 1099-k
All of them would like to see the threshold raised.
We'll have to see I guess. It may be Ebay doesn't completely understand this change yet. It is a bit fuzzy.
But a couple of things to remember:
1. The IRS can't create or change tax law. As far as I know, what is considered a taxable sale and what isn't hasn't changed. Normally, as I understand it, if you buy something retail, pay appropriate sales tax or excise tax etc., and later sell what you bought, it's not a taxable sale. The problem is when you buy something wholesale (as a retailer, paying no sales tax) and then sell it for more than you paid for it and don't collect sales tax or report it as income.
2. The 1099-K is a business form, not an individual form. From everything I can see, the IRS says it's issued by third party payers to retailers who receive payments over a certain amount during the year through that payer. What's changing is the IRS is using their regulatory power to reduce the amount required for a 1099-K to be issued.
3. Whether or not you get a 1099 doesn't determine whether income is taxable. If you have a bank account and the bank pays you interest, that's taxable income on your 1040. The bank isn't required to send you (and the IRS) a 1099-INT showing how much they paid you until it hits a certain level (I think $400). But interest income is taxable whether it's more than $400 or less than $400. Similarly, the treshhold changing for 1099-Ks to be sent out doesn't change whether the income from the sale is taxable or not.
That link in the above reply is for Tax Year 2021. "In limited instances: If the sales volume is over $600 per year" is a reference to a few states whose state law covered sales volume under $600 in 2021.
In 2022, eBay is required by the IRS to issue a Form 1099-K for all sellers who receive $600 or more in sales.
https://www.ebay.com/sellercenter/payments-and-fees/2022-changes-to-ebay-and-your-1099-k
DoughlessThe payments companies are required to send the 1099-k to all payees. It doesn't distinguish if the payee is an individual or a business.
The company filling out the 1099-K has to fill box 2, the four-digit Merchant Category Code saying what kind of business is getting the 1099. MCCs are only assigned to retail / service companies.
This is from Turbotax' website under "small business taxes":
IRS Form 1099-K came into existence as part of the 2008 Housing Assistance Tax Act—even though it has nothing to do with housing. This form endeavors to ensure that all online retailers are reporting sales for tax purposes. It requires credit card companies, such as MasterCard and Visa, and third-party processors, such as PayPal and Amazon, to report the payment transactions they process on behalf of retailers. Therefore, if you accept credit card payments online, you may end up with a 1099-K at the end of the year that summarizes all of your sales transactions with each processor.
Most retailers who accept online credit card payments from customers will receive a 1099-K if its annual processing activity has met the following guidelines:
https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/small-business-taxes/what-online-business-owners-should-know-about-irs-form-1099-k/L2tODOz3r
richhotrain rrebell Buisnesses like e-bay cover their butts so if there is any chance something is required, they will send the paperwork. I don't believe that CYA is the reason that eBay will send out 1099-Ks to individual sellers. It is the law, so eBay must send out those Forms to affected sellers. eBay has no say in the matter. Rich
rrebell Buisnesses like e-bay cover their butts so if there is any chance something is required, they will send the paperwork.
Buisnesses like e-bay cover their butts so if there is any chance something is required, they will send the paperwork.
I don't believe that CYA is the reason that eBay will send out 1099-Ks to individual sellers. It is the law, so eBay must send out those Forms to affected sellers. eBay has no say in the matter.
That's how I read it. The payments companies are required to send the 1099-k to all payees. It doesn't distinguish if the payee is an individual or a business.
It seems like the INTENT of the law is to apply it to only businesses since they typically sell items at a profit, so there is tax due. For an oindividual, exactly how much margin or income is there when an individual receives $601 for items sold? The tax due is miniscual and is dwarfed by the amount of events where the paperwork would show no taxes owed at all.
Sounds like the Recovery Act of 2021 was hastily written to where the words do not mirror the intent. I would expect it to get corrected at some point. Lets hope some time this year.
Buisnesses like e-bay cover their butts so if there is any chance something is required, they will send the paperwork. It is the tax reason to do things like the liabity reason for all California buisnesses having prop 65 warnings at their entrances.
Per the IRS website, if you receive a 1099-K and you operate a business buying and selling things using PayPal, Ebay, or other third-party electronic paying systems, you will use that information when completing the return for your business income.
Note that the 1099-K has a section (box 2) for the "Merchant category code", where it lists the code for the type of business you are operating.
The "understanding your form 1099-K" also explains that if you receive a 1099-K "in your name as an individual (showing your social security number)" that you should contact the issuer of the 1099-K to correct it to show your business ID number.
In fact, everything the IRS has that I can see re the 1099-K is talking about business income issues.
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/understanding-your-form-1099-k
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1099k.pdf
Yes, I don't want to deal with the 1099.
Just dealing as the Executor of my parents' estate has been a big enough trial. I'm not adding to it by dealing with an Ebay 1099 form.
John
wjstix I notice the IRS website's info page on the 1099-K seems to emphasize "business".... What should I do with this information? It is important that your business books and records reflect your business income, including any amounts that may be reported on Form 1099-K. You must report on your income tax return all income you receive from your business. In most cases, your business income will be in the form of cash, checks, and debit/credit card payments. Business income is generally referred to as gross receipts on income tax returns. Therefore, you should consider the amounts shown on Form 1099-K, along with all other amounts received, when calculating gross receipts for your income tax return. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/understanding-your-form-1099-k It seems to me the IRS is concerned with businesses receiving third-party payments (like thru PayPal) and not reporting them.
I notice the IRS website's info page on the 1099-K seems to emphasize "business"....
It is important that your business books and records reflect your business income, including any amounts that may be reported on Form 1099-K. You must report on your income tax return all income you receive from your business. In most cases, your business income will be in the form of cash, checks, and debit/credit card payments. Business income is generally referred to as gross receipts on income tax returns. Therefore, you should consider the amounts shown on Form 1099-K, along with all other amounts received, when calculating gross receipts for your income tax return.
It seems to me the IRS is concerned with businesses receiving third-party payments (like thru PayPal) and not reporting them.
This is why it needs to get better sorted out.
The 1099-K will be sent (by ebay) regardless if you are a business or personal. In fact, when you sign up for managed payments, it asks you to designate if your account is personal or business. If a business, it expects you to supply the Tax ID number. If personal, it expects you to supply your full social security number. That's how they interface with the IRS, by the full numbers. If you do not pass the $600 threshold, you can sign up using only the last 4 digits, because that's only part of the number the bank interface needs, and you can sell until you hit the $600, then they want the soc.
So either ebay is being overzealous in sending the 1099-k to everybody...when they even go through the trouble of separating business from personal....or the law also requires individuals to support their sales proceeds.
What you posted is not exactly the rule, or an interpretation of the full rule, so its still foggy. I think the rule applies to all payment system facilitators, so I'm thinking individuals still have to mess with the $600 1099-k.
Either way, I think not having to supply a full soc number and not having to mess with the paperwork would be something that would benefit everyone, even though most people wouldn't owe taxes anyway.
A lot of people use their dealer licenses from other businesses, like auto sales, to buy model trains at wholesale--without a storefront--and they get away with it for awhile perhaps many years. If you bought enough stuff, some importers did not care that you had no storefront, and this included but was not by any means limited to Overland Models. Sometimes you don't really know who your model railroad "friends" really are when you only see them in the train store (I waited on them) and in the train room or at train shows. One of mine, now deceased, was caught turning back odometers on used cars--80 counts--and he went to jail. He also had been a big buyer of HO brass, with an extensive inventory of all the small screws, springs, whatever from Overland Models. He could and did completely remotor and regear brass diesel engines with all new Overland tower gear mechanism parts.
I have heard other dealers openly bragging at a train show that the tax they collect is extra profit because they never report it.
So yes, I kinda think I understand the intent of the law. I'm just done selling on ebay. Some of the customers became too much of a hassle to deal with. The used stuff my local store is liquidating on my behalf--well I'll never have that much stuff again.
Bottom line as I see it is if you bought a brass engine 10 years ago and sell it now, the IRS doesn't really care. You bought it, probably paid sales tax on it. If you sell it now for more or less, not a problem. I suspect it's people who buy and sell things as a business but who are trying to disguise it as just an individual selling their own items that is the concern.
It's a little like the problem Walthers ran into a while back where guys would register as 'vendors' so they could buy things for their own use (or their friends) but only pay wholesale instead of retail. Eventually Walthers set up requirements that you had to have some sort of actual business (a brick-and-mortar store, or verifiable on-line dealer) to be allowed to buy wholesale.
No sale, no profit.
I do keep a spreadsheet of my sales, listing cost, shipping, and ebay fees. I very rarely made a profit on any one sale. Any sale that went over retail price, I rebated shipping charges back and put extra stuff in the box.
wjstixonline sellers to basically run a business selling things
That's why I have sympathy for the guy that sold a pair of locomotives for $650, but none for the guy doing $10k at a show. There's a point where it is a business, regardless of the number.
Just on a quick once-over of the info at the IRS website, it sounds to me they're trying to find people who are using ebay or other online sellers to basically run a business selling things, as opposed to people who just sell their personal stuff once in a while.
We ran into something like that here in my state regarding collecting sales tax. If you sold your personal property at an "occasional" (4 or less a year) garage sale or flea market, you didn't charge sales tax. Some folks were having a weekly "garage sale" where they were selling things like new TV sets and microwaves. You also had hobby shops (sometimes from out of state) coming to model railroad flea markets and selling products they normally sold in their store, but not charging sales tax. Eventually the state cracked down and required people selling things as a business to charge sales tax at flea markets etc., but still allowing regular folks to do occassional sales of their own property without worrying about it.
MJ4562 PRR8259 Also, technically if I am selling my used items for less money than I have in them, they are already previously taxed and I'm not making ANY profit whatsoever. I would report a net loss. A personal loss so not deductible even if you had the documentation to support it.
PRR8259 Also, technically if I am selling my used items for less money than I have in them, they are already previously taxed and I'm not making ANY profit whatsoever. I would report a net loss.
A personal loss so not deductible even if you had the documentation to support it.
As far as model railroaders are concerned, think about it. When was the last time you sold a used piece of equipment at a profit? To answer that question for myself, never. The used items that I sell on eBay are always in very good condition, but I usually sell this stuff for 50% to 70% of what I paid for it. Those losses are simply not deductible. But, if I were to manage to sell an item at a profit, it would be subject to tax, subject to de minimus rules imposed by the tax law.
The federal income tax law regarding sales at a profit are primarily aimed at the "big guys" who sell new stuff, almost always at a profit. But the IRS casts a big net to snare all of the profit makers and, as in this case, the little guys get caught in the same net.
In the case of the legislation that provoked this thread, the little guys most affected are those folks who buy and sell "collectibles" and those folks who make and sell stuff like pottery, jewelry, art work, etc.
Let me add one final thought. If you don't keep receipts for your purchases, at least keep a spreadsheet of purchases and costs. I do both although I doubt that I will ever be required to produce this stuff for some IRS agent to review.
PRR8259Also, technically if I am selling my used items for less money than I have in them, they are already previously taxed and I'm not making ANY profit whatsoever. I would report a net loss.
Tempest in a teapot topic for sure. These types of doofus ideas get put out every year and they always get repealed as soon as someone with enough sense to understand how unworkable it is.
Kinda hard to do the paperwork, if one can even follow the instructions, if/when one does not have all the receipts to prove one's original costs, isn't it?
I know a piano teacher who teaches at least 40 lessons a week, for many years, all for cash payment, and that family does not report that income. The hobby people are small potatoes by comparison.
I also heard recently that in a normal year only about 59% of American households pay any income taxes, but last year it was only 43%. So less than 50% are supporting a whole lot of...
Also, technically if I am selling my used items for less money than I have in them, they are already previously taxed and I'm not making ANY profit whatsoever. I would report a net loss.
Tin Can II It has been over two years since I have sold anything on eBay, primarily because of the changes and fee increases. I do not want to futz with the paperwork on my tax return that would result if I got a 1099 from eBay. Not worth the hassle. I will sell stuff at local train shows or on other online forums.
It has been over two years since I have sold anything on eBay, primarily because of the changes and fee increases. I do not want to futz with the paperwork on my tax return that would result if I got a 1099 from eBay. Not worth the hassle. I will sell stuff at local train shows or on other online forums.
I disagree. There are many who horse trade more than $600 of their model trains or whatever other hobby on ebay in a given year who likely didnt figure on having to prove cost basis.
The new reporying threshold has been done and changed many times in the past, to most people it means nothing. You are required to keep receipts for a buisness or if you are writing off things like state taxes. The IRS are going to be drowning in extra paper work, not just with the forms but with people misunderstanding the new rules. It really dosn't affect most people.