I am thinking of using a couple of #4 turnouts on my layout. They will be used in a low speed industrial area, 40 foot cars, and small locomotives. I know larger turnouts are morew reliable but I am trying to model one of the tightest idustrial spurs I have ever seen. Any input from people who have used #4 turnouts
I have eight #4 Atlas Custom Line Turnouts and even my large locomotives negotiate them quite well at low speeds (yard speed). They have been in and working great for over thirty years. Mel Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California Aging is not for wimps.
I have used #4 turnouts on my old line, and they were Atlas Custom Line, just like Mel's setup. Your setup meets two important criteria: short freight cars and small locomotives. So, yes, you can safely and reliably use #4 turnouts on your layout in low speed industrial areas.
Rich
Alton Junction
Note that Atlas "#4" Customline turnouts are actually about a 4½ frog, so they are more forgiving than a "true" #4. Some people call Atlas Snap-Switch turnouts “#4”, but they are actually much sharper frogs. To the Original Poster, what manufacturer are you planning to use?
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyama Note that Atlas "#4" Customline turnouts are actually about a 4½ frog, so they are more forgiving than a "true" #4. Some people call Atlas Snap-Switch turnouts “#4”, but they are actually much sharper frogs. To the Original Poster, what manufacturer are you planning to use? Byron
Beat me to it. That info is in John Armstrongs Track Planning for Realistic Operation. I recommend it.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Offering something else to think about, keeping with the snap switch suggestion. Atlas makes a code 83 turnout that has more curve to the diverging route, whereas a traditional #4 has a straighter trajectory.
If you're trying to save space in an industrial area, the curved nature of the diverging track gets you farther away from the tangent (straight) track sooner than the traditional.
There is no frog number, per se. The constraint is the radius of the curved diverging track. In the code 83 product, its 22 inch radius, plenty broad for short cars and locomotives. Its a little tighter than a #4, but could save you more space.
The #4 (or really the 4.5) (slightly straighter diverging route)
Code 83, snap switch, 22 inch radius (curved diverging route) turnout.
- Douglas
Hello All,
WilliekatI am trying to model one of the tightest idustrial (SIC) spurs I have ever seen.
If you want tight PECO makes Code 100, #2 turnouts: ST-240 right hand, ST-241 left hand.
The last time I checked Yankee Dabbler had them in stock.
I use several of these on my pike for a wye and loading/unloading sidings.
A four (4) unit consist of GP40s can negotiate the sidings, albeit at very slow speeds; 16- out of 128-speed steps for the lower loading siding.
The upper unloading siding utilizes four (4) of these PECO #2s.
Because of the tight turnouts, 15-inch radius curves, and a 3% grade I limit my motive power to 4-axle diesels and 0-X-0 steam power.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Lastspikemike I have 5 of those 22" radius snapswitches. I've removed them all from our layout.
I have 5 of those 22" radius snapswitches. I've removed them all from our layout.
Why?
My last two layouts used #4s for spurs and the yard tracks. All were from Atlas (code 100 NS) and worked like a charm. All of my F units, switchers, and steam locos worked just fine on them. And my largest freight cars (50 ft) worked fine too. I did not run long passenger or steam (4-8-4, 2-10-2) or passenger cars on them, but I suspect at slow speed they would have worked as well.
And, those locos had no business being there.......
Yes, we all would have liked the space and wherewithall for larger turnouts for spurs and yards, but often that just isn't workable.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
The 8 Atlas #4 turnouts in the picture below are code 83 and all of my locomotives easily clear them at yard speed. That includes Bachmann 4-8-4, Bowser 4-8-4, Rivarossi 4-8-8-2, Rivarossi 2-8-8-2 and my Rivarossi/Athearn Krauss Maffei ML-4000s, my longest wheelbase six axle diesels.I can also push my Athearn 72’ passenger cars into my yard for storage without problems.Mel Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California Aging is not for wimps.
Body-mounted couplers are advised for pushing moves through tight curvature, of course.
LastspikemikePeco #5 are very short: 8 1/4".
And, the #2s are 6-1/2 ".
The OP did say...
Just saying.
The only way to get "tighter" would be to use single-point turnouts.
My whole layout is #4 Shinohara, last one was mainly those too. I can run everything I own thru them at fast speed or crawl. You can run 40' boxcars at full speed thru them also. No problem with my 4-6-2's or 2-8-2's.
I have'nt decided yet will look at what people say here.
John Armstrong the "dean of track planners" more than once suggested that #4 turnouts were under-appreciated and that using them opened up more possibilities for interesting track arrangements. He did not go so far as to say that the preference for #6 turnouts was just a form of snobbery based on appearance or peer pressure, but rather his point was that it made little sense to reject #4s in favor of #6s if the actual curves on the layout were going to be just as challenging for the rolling stock as a #4 would be, and that most layouts had locomotives and rolling stock that could handle a #4.
I think Linn Westcott former MR editor wrote much the same thing about #4s.
Of course track including the turnout has to be smoothly laid and using #6s won't forgive any track laying sins.
I was under the impression that the old Atlas Snap Track turnouts, which are often thought of as #4s but not to my recollection labled by Atlas as #4s, actually measured out to something closer to a # 3 1/2 due to the geometry of the track which was meant to fit in with trainset curves. That is why Atlas's old track plan books indicated whether they are Snap Track track plans or Custom Line track plans.
Dave Nelson
--Atlas Customline #4 appear to be equivalent to the #5 made by three other turnout manufacturers which are routinely used in yard ladders.
It's not "equivalent." It's a #4½ frog, not a #5 frog.
cuyama Atlas Customline #4 appear to be equivalent to the #5 made by three other turnout manufacturers which are routinely used in yard ladders. It's not "equivalent." It's a #4½ frog, not a #5 frog.
Atlas Customline #4 appear to be equivalent to the #5 made by three other turnout manufacturers which are routinely used in yard ladders.
WilliekatI am thinking of using a couple of #4 turnouts on my layout. They will be used in a low speed industrial area, 40 foot cars, and small locomotives. I know larger turnouts are morew reliable but I am trying to model one of the tightest idustrial spurs I have ever seen. Any input from people who have used #4 turnouts
rrebellMy whole layout is #4 Shinohara, last one was mainly those too. I can run everything I own thru them at fast speed or crawl. You can run 40' boxcars at full speed thru them also. No problem with my 4-6-2's or 2-8-2's.
Williekat: I can confirm, along with "rrebell", also through using Walthers/Shinohara #4 turnouts, 40 & 50 foot freight cars, GP9s, and 2-8-2s, that you should not have problems.
This is actual real world experience.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Frog number is a function of the divergence angle, so you could have an infinite number of frog numbers.
You could quite readily build a #9.375 frog. It may be easier to deal in whole numbers for a variety of reasons, but there's nothing that requires it.
What's the frog angle on a Peco Code 83 #5 turnout?
LastspikemikeAlso, is there a 4.5 frog? I thought they were all whole numbers.
from the Catskill Archive on prototype trackage
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
LastspikemikeLook up equivalent. At least one denotation includes the context in which I used the word. Also, is there a 4.5 frog? I thought they were all whole numbers.
Speaking down to me might make you feel better about yourself, you really seem to enjoy it.
Speaking down to Byron makes you out to be the fool you are. Very few people are as respected as he is, and he is one of the truly knowledgeable participants in this group.
It has also become a very disturbing habit of yours to cause turmoil in threads where newcomers ask basic questions. You seem to like geting these threads locked by the moderators. This needs to stop. It is bad enough that you don't know enough about model railroading to even understand what you are copying and pasting, but now you are causing new participants to perceive us as a dispruptive group.
Check yourself.
Lastspikemike cuyama -- Atlas Customline #4 appear to be equivalent to the #5 made by three other turnout manufacturers which are routinely used in yard ladders. It's not "equivalent." It's a #4½ frog, not a #5 frog. Look up equivalent. At least one denotation includes the context in which I used the word. Also, is there a 4.5 frog? I thought they were all whole numbers.
cuyama -- Atlas Customline #4 appear to be equivalent to the #5 made by three other turnout manufacturers which are routinely used in yard ladders. It's not "equivalent." It's a #4½ frog, not a #5 frog.
-- Atlas Customline #4 appear to be equivalent to the #5 made by three other turnout manufacturers which are routinely used in yard ladders.
Look up equivalent. At least one denotation includes the context in which I used the word.
Also, is there a 4.5 frog? I thought they were all whole numbers.
Has no one explained to you what those numbers mean? You could have 4.75 frog if you want.
Just like roof pitch is described by units of rise and run, turnout frogs are described by units of run and separation.
Measured from the point of the frog, 5 units out, a separation of of one unit is a #5.
So 4-1/2 units x 1 unit is a #4-1/2 and is a larger angle and thereby a sharper diverging route.
I layed an Atlas #4-1/2 over top a full scale printout of a PECO #5, nothing "equivalent" about them at all.
I realize that the details of turnout geometry bore half of you and escape some of you, but that does not change the facts.
And that little tidbit of info is all I have time for.....
Sheldon
I've always assumed that Atlas selected the #4 1/2 because 9 is a sacred number to them. Their turnouts naturally make a crossover with the parallel tracks sitting on two inch centers, right? So that's 9 inches for two inches. Cut that in half for the frog number calculation of distance over 1, and there you go.
As to why they call it a 4 I figure it had nothing to do more than look like it fits in with 6 and 8.
Without guessing or making stuff up, can someone with actual knowledge post a list of frog angles on Atlas Code 83 Custom Line turnouts and Peco Code 83 turnouts?
richhotrain Without guessing or making stuff up, can someone with actual knowledge post a list of frog angles on Atlas Code 83 Custom Line turnouts and Peco Code 83 turnouts? Rich
#4 (4.5 actually) = 12.5 degrees
That is why they make 12.5 and 25 degree crossings, to match the turnouts when making crossovers and such.
#6 = 9.5 degrees
With the matching 19 degree crossing........
#8 = aprox 7 degrees, will confirm later.
Thanks, Sheldon. I must be using the wrong term when I say "frog angle".
What I am interested in learning is the determination of 4.5 for a #4 Atlas Custom Line turnout. What would be the proper reference for 4.5?
I see in one of your earlier replies, you referred to "units". Is that the proper term?
gregc
richhotrain Thanks, Sheldon. I must be using the wrong term when I say "frog angle". What I am interested in learning is the determination of 4.5 for a #4 Atlas Custom Line turnout. What would be the proper reference for 4.5? I see in one of your earlier replies, you referred to "units". Is that the proper term? Rich
Rich, are you asking why an Atlas #4 is really a #4-1/2?
It is like measuring two sides of a triangle. Pick a unit, let's use 1/4".
Start at the tip of the frog, measure away from the points 4-1/2 "units", or 1-1/8".
Then, at that point, measure the spread of the two diverging rails. It will be 1 unit, or 1/4".
This kind of layout is used in civil engineering and construction because it is easier and more accurate to do in the field than using "degrees".
A Walthers #4, will have a 1/4" spread at 1", 4 units x 1 unit.
A #6 will have a 1/4" spread at 1-1/2", 6 units x 1 unit.
The chart Greg posted is more precise and reflects actual prototype numbers.
Model manufacturers often round up or down some like ATLAS did.