DoughlessMy guess is that passenger cars sell to the really old side of our hobby customers (sorry) who have more money to spend on hobbies.
Maybe the pre-Amtrak or early Amtrak passenger cars. But "really old" customers don't strike me as the core customers who would be interested in the Surfliner cars.
And the "really old" ones would mostly be retired and many on a fixed income. I imagine there are a lot people who are in the age range that are interested in the Surfliners and well off enough to afford them.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 Doughless My guess is that passenger cars sell to the really old side of our hobby customers (sorry) who have more money to spend on hobbies. Maybe the pre-Amtrak or early Amtrak passenger cars. But "really old" customers don't strike me as the core customers who would be interested in the Surfliner cars. And the "really old" ones would mostly be retired and many on a fixed income. I imagine there are a lot people who are in the age range that are interested in the Surfliners and well off enough to afford them.
Doughless My guess is that passenger cars sell to the really old side of our hobby customers (sorry) who have more money to spend on hobbies.
Yeah, I've rethought that comment. I couldn't speculate about passenger cars.
In the specific topic about features driving the market, I think for decades modelers have always wanted certain things that they ended up having to install or build themselves.
They shaved off molded on details to install their own metal details. Stripped paint and air brushed better paint jobs, installed underframe rigging, etc.
So when producers built models with these features, it was offering the market something they had been clearly striving for for years. Whether it was RTR or home-built, the end product is about the same.
There have been layout sound systems over the years, so the desire for sound, and onboard locomotive sounds was not a new thing.
As far as these passenger cars, I don't think the market has really been demanding over the years for many of the features being offered.
In that context, I agree with Rich that it could be frustrating if producers, who have a limited window to produce things, are going to sort of try out new products with features that have unknown acceptance and forego less featured products that have shown to have a more steady market.
- Douglas
Doughless As far as these passenger cars, I don't think the market has really been demanding over the years for many of the features being offered.
I spent many nights installing grain of wheat bulbs when I was young in Rivarossi and Con-Cor passenger cars to have a lighted interior. Many people at the club I was a member of in the late 90's did the same. Rapido has offered a lighting kit for its earlier cars, and their newer passenger cars come with it installed. It seems as though the model community IS demanding lighted passenger cars.
An "expensive model collector"
BigDaddy Walthers Passenger Train of the Year was announced today. The PRR "The General" There is going to be a deluxe edition with 13 cars and 120 figures, as well as LED lighting There is also going to be a 12 X29b box car + caboose freight car set. Prices were not mentioned in the video but they must think someone has a lot of money to spend and a big enough layout.
Walthers Passenger Train of the Year was announced today. The PRR "The General"
There is going to be a deluxe edition with 13 cars and 120 figures, as well as LED lighting
There is also going to be a 12 X29b box car + caboose freight car set.
Prices were not mentioned in the video but they must think someone has a lot of money to spend and a big enough layout.
$1535 for a set of 13 cars. You can add the DC section (3 cars) for $380. I reserved one 13 car set, plus a bunch of head end cars. I bet they sell a lot of these sets.
Doughless SeeYou190 Just thinking here. Maybe the Surfliner cars appeal to a smaller fan base that have higher demands than the general population of model railroaders. Offering high end, high detail, high feature passenger cars to a small and demanding group sounds like the proper approach. -Kevin I think that's a good way to put it. Rich's concern seems to be a broader comment on the hobby trending as a whole. I'm not into passenger cars, so I don't know the availability of lower end products. Because product sells well, does not mean its market driven. I would call it consumer acceptance, not consumer driven.
SeeYou190 Just thinking here. Maybe the Surfliner cars appeal to a smaller fan base that have higher demands than the general population of model railroaders. Offering high end, high detail, high feature passenger cars to a small and demanding group sounds like the proper approach. -Kevin
Just thinking here.
Maybe the Surfliner cars appeal to a smaller fan base that have higher demands than the general population of model railroaders.
Offering high end, high detail, high feature passenger cars to a small and demanding group sounds like the proper approach.
-Kevin
I think that's a good way to put it.
Rich's concern seems to be a broader comment on the hobby trending as a whole. I'm not into passenger cars, so I don't know the availability of lower end products.
Because product sells well, does not mean its market driven.
I would call it consumer acceptance, not consumer driven.
In a sense, modelers are passively bullied by manufacturers. OK, you want an Amtrak Surfliner, well here it is with sound and lighting for as much as $200. Take it or leave it.
It is not only the Surfliner. I mentioned my reluctance to spend $85 per car to buy Rapido's Monon coach car.
I am not into the argument that the hobby is getting expensive. I can still buy structure kits, ballast, ground cover, and track (including turnouts) and even electronics at "reasonable" prices. My beef is with the price of locos and rolling stock, specifically passenger cars. I set price limits in my mind. I am not going to spend more than $200 for a locomotive or $75 for a passenger car.
I am bored by the costs of production lectures as well. Without digging into the economics, I cannot accept the argument that a manufacturer cannot produce a locomotive for $200 or a passenger car for $75.
Doughless riogrande5761 Doughless My guess is that passenger cars sell to the really old side of our hobby customers (sorry) who have more money to spend on hobbies. Maybe the pre-Amtrak or early Amtrak passenger cars. But "really old" customers don't strike me as the core customers who would be interested in the Surfliner cars. And the "really old" ones would mostly be retired and many on a fixed income. I imagine there are a lot people who are in the age range that are interested in the Surfliners and well off enough to afford them. Yeah, I've rethought that comment. I couldn't speculate about passenger cars. In the specific topic about features driving the market, I think for decades modelers have always wanted certain things that they ended up having to install or build themselves. They shaved off molded on details to install their own metal details. Stripped paint and air brushed better paint jobs, installed underframe rigging, etc. So when producers built models with these features, it was offering the market something they had been clearly striving for for years. Whether it was RTR or home-built, the end product is about the same. There have been layout sound systems over the years, so the desire for sound, and onboard locomotive sounds was not a new thing. As far as these passenger cars, I don't think the market has really been demanding over the years for many of the features being offered. In that context, I agree with Rich that it could be frustrating if producers, who have a limited window to produce things, are going to sort of try out new products with features that have unknown acceptance and forego less featured products that have shown to have a more steady market.
No! Wait, Jason. I was just hoping for a $75 coach car, forget the lighting and sound and smells.
Rich
Alton Junction
A few random thoughts....
All generalizations about what people, of what age, model what eras, and notions that we model the "trains of our youth", or have interest in what types of railroading, were soundly disprooved a few months ago in a thread about "what era do you model".
My freight trains (except for switching locals) are typically 40 cars long, or about 20 actual feet. My passenger trains are from 6 cars to 15 cars, so they range from about 7 actual feet to 16 feet, making them smaller than my freight trains. They do "require" larger curves, but I would choose the larger curves with or without passenger trains.....
I for one model a time from before I was born, and WAY before Surfliners.....
There are people who buy model trains (rolling stock), there are people who build model trains (rolling stock) from kits, scratch or kitbash, there are people who do both. There are people willing and able to buy expensive high detail high feature models, there are those who would rather not pay that much. They are all model railroaders.
I think many of you are giving the manufacturers too much credit in the "clever" or "premeditation" department. We are not talking about Apple, or John Deere, recently found to be making it harder for peolple to fix their own tractors.
We are mostly talking about guys trying to make a living in the hobby they love.
A hobby where the reasonable profit has been squeezed to the minimum by various market pressures.
I don't have dog in this fight, I'm not interested in Surfliners, I'm not interested in any $100, or $200 passenger cars when the manufacturers can't even solve the close coupling diaphragm question. I have all the passenger cars I need, many only cost $5 or $10..... until I add a bunch of stuff to them and rebuild them.....
I have no issue with what other people will or will not spend, I have my own limits and ideas on the subject.
But I don't think there is much greed or scheming on the part of the manufacturers, they are just trying to make a living in an industry that is still in a big transition compared to the old days of my youth when I managed a hobby shop train department.
So I have a question for all of those who are saying the manufacturers can and should do better/different.
How many of you have created a product, built a preproduction prototype, set up a manufacturing process, and brought a product to market? Successfully or not?
I have, and in several different industries, so I have great respect for those who give it a go in this industry. Even the big boys, Walthers, Athearn, Atlas, Bowser, Bachmann, it is even for them, a personal effort of love for this hobby.
This is an industry of little mom and pop companies. Only one of the companies I listed above is part of a publicly traded company, and these are big players......
I don't know what the answer is, but I am sort of happy I have most of the trains I want for my next layout........
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But I don't think there is much greed or scheming on the part of the manufacturers, they are just trying to make a living in an industry that is still in a big transition compared to the old days of my youth when I managed a hobby shop train department.
Take Douglas' automobile extras as an example. My wife just bought a new car and wanted a moon roof. To get it, she had to accept a "package" which included a 22-way massaging front seat. I tried it once and it was like going to a chiropractor. The moon roof cost $1,200 and the 22-way seat cost $900. What is that all about?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL So I have a question for all of those who are saying the manufacturers can and should do better/different. How many of you have created a product, built a preproduction prototype, set up a manufacturing process, and brought a product to market? Successfully or not?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But I don't think there is much greed or scheming on the part of the manufacturers, they are just trying to make a living in an industry that is still in a big transition compared to the old days of my youth when I managed a hobby shop train department. Sheldon
I remember seeing jlwii2000's (James Wright) video of when he visited Rapido Trains HQ in Toronto a few years back, and when visiting the meeting room with the other Rapido staff, Jason Shron, the founder and president said that, it was not like they are well dressed buiness people sitting at a meeting ssmoking cigars and counting piles of money, but just regular guys in the industry that just sit down and discuss what new or unproduced models they could do to bring or introduce into the model railroading market.
My view does not think companies are being greedy. When a company plays in the high end product space, the natural progression is to try to continuously out-do the other guys who are also playing in that space. If you sell your product as being more sophisticated than the other guys', well, you have to keep finding ways to show it. Its the business they've chosen.
Nice paint, wire details, smooth motors are no longer the features of just high end products; so it kind of looks like they are trying to come up with ideas about features that modelers never really have expressed an interest in before.
That's why I say that I don't think what we see in product lineups can be explained as being market driven. JMO.
Doughless That's why I say that I don't think what we see in product lineups can be explained as being market driven. JMO.
Others keep taking this down a rabbit hole over whether the manufacturers are greedy and profit driven. I am not making that argument. My point is that manufacturers are driving the pricing to the point of outrageousness by loading up a model with unnecessarily luxurious features - - - a Lamborghini when a Maybach will do.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL But I don't think there is much greed or scheming on the part of the manufacturers, they are just trying to make a living in an industry that is still in a big transition compared to the old days of my youth when I managed a hobby shop train department. OK, I'll give you that. Maybe not much greed or scheming, but consider this. The manufacturer could stop with a well detailed passenger car. But, the add-ons like lighting and sound are likely where they make their money. Common sense tells me that. Take Douglas' automobile extras as an example. My wife just bought a new car and wanted a moon roof. To get it, she had to accept a "package" which included a 22-way massaging front seat. I tried it once and it was like going to a chiropractor. The moon roof cost $1,200 and the 22-way seat cost $900. What is that all about? ATLANTIC CENTRAL So I have a question for all of those who are saying the manufacturers can and should do better/different. How many of you have created a product, built a preproduction prototype, set up a manufacturing process, and brought a product to market? Successfully or not? C'mon, Sheldon, you know that is irrelevant. You don't have to create a product, build a prototype, set up a manufacturing process, and bring a product to market to sense whether the pricing of an MR passenger car is outrageous or not. Rich
OK, I'll give you that. Maybe not much greed or scheming, but consider this. The manufacturer could stop with a well detailed passenger car. But, the add-ons like lighting and sound are likely where they make their money. Common sense tells me that.
C'mon, Sheldon, you know that is irrelevant. You don't have to create a product, build a prototype, set up a manufacturing process, and bring a product to market to sense whether the pricing of an MR passenger car is outrageous or not.
Rich, the option package situation with automobiles is about streamlining production, nothing more, nothing less. By only building three versions, basic, mid and top, they actually lower production costs, especially on the design and parts acquisition end.
We may not see those savings in the sticker, but that is why they do it.
I know a lot about the car business, worked in that business too, and built hot rods/restored cars from the ground up years ago, but I don't see that as a good comparison here.
And if model train manufacturers stop with a "top of the mid range" well detailed passenger car rather than the fully loaded limited version, they run the risk of lossing those "top end" type buyers just like too high a price drives off some of the mid range buyers who don't care about the "museum" level detail features.
Bachmann makes "mid range" passenger cars, with "street prices" in the $45 to $55 range. Athearn still does runs of the Blue Box cars under the Roundhouse name from time to time, prices in the $30-$40 range. Both being reasonable "adjusted for inflation" prices compared to products years ago.
Looks like ConCor is phasing out their passengers cars, a sign that generic less detailed cars are not selling?
With each product, these companies have to decide which part of the market they are after. Some companies are only after the top of the market, but Athearn and others try to serve all levels to some degree.
With the current state of the hobby, it is a no win either way.
Look, I'm with you, I'm not spending that kind of money for a single piece of rolling stock. My most expensive pieces of rolling stock are some special B&O pieces from Spring Mills Depot, a few $50 cabooses and covered hoppers. The dollar cost average of my 140 locomotive roster is only about $100 each.
BUT, I put $8 worth of trucks, wheelsets and couplers on nearly every car. And I spend $25 or $30 in detail parts, diaphragms and lighting for those $10 Athearn passenger cars.
Outrageous is subjective, like owning a Rolls Royce, saw one on the street just yesterday....... they cost almost as much as my house......
Have you looked at the price of any of the brass trains still being made? I have bought really good used cars for less money.
I don't complain about prices, I simply don't get my wallet out.
And, in my business, I politely walk away from people not willing to pay my rates - I'm always busy.......
I once paid $300 for a rare NOS tractor part that only cost about $60 new - I wanted it that bad.
We all see "value" differently.
Hey, where is the OP?
This is his thread, his beef, not mine.
richhotrainTake Douglas' automobile extras as an example. My wife just bought a new car and wanted a moon roof. To get it, she had to accept a "package" which included a 22-way massaging front seat. I tried it once and it was like going to a chiropractor. The moon roof cost $1,200 and the 22-way seat cost $900. What is that all about?
Addressing this only because I'm using it as a metaphor for our train issue.
Sheldon is right when he says its about streamlining production costs, resulting in all of those options being a lower sticker than buying them ala carte.
They group popular options into packages that have a connecting theme. My 2000 Camaro could have had the "convenience package", PW, PB, and Cruise (which added $1,100 to a car that was only $13,000). My 2006 mitsubishi eclipse GT had the "sun and sound package" Sunroof and a rockford fosgate stereo with a big 12 inch subwoofer in the back...that was a fun car...especially when the rearview mirror vibrated from the subwoofer cranking out Floyd's The WALL. Pickup trucks might come with a heavy duty radiator, block heater, and heavy duty suspension because like minded people might want all three for the conditions they will use the truck.
The groupings tend to make sense.
What the manufacturer sees that would lead them to think a critical mass of customers who want a sunroof also would want a 22 function massaging seat, I have no idea.
Probably just trying to find a reason to justify charging your wife $2,100 for a $1,200 sunroof...and make her feel like she's getting value.
Not saying that train companies would do anything like that.
Doughless What the manufacturer sees that would lead them to think a critical mass of customers who want a sunroof also would want a 22 function massaging seat, I have no idea. Probably just trying to find a reason to justify charging your wife $2,100 for a $1,200 sunroof...and make her feel like she's getting value. Not saying that train companies would do anything like that.
I thought that my Lamborghini vs. Maybach analogy was quite elegant!
I would have prefered built in navigaton and power retracting mirrors when I bought my 2015 FORD F250, but to get that I would have had to move up from an XLT to a Lariat, an extra $5500 and stuff I did not want.
But this is loaded, including the twin turbo Eccoboost engine, 360 hp. It is a 4800 lb Station Wagon that goes 0-60 in 5 secs.
Back in the day, I drove several of these, and they had an amazing list of custom options:
How is this really any different than high end brass passenger car sets? How much do boxed brass sets go for? Having seen the ad, it looks like these are more accurate, more detailed and much more completely finished than comparable sets.
Nevin Wilson How is this really any different than high end brass passenger car sets? How much do boxed brass sets go for? Having seen the ad, it looks like these are more accurate, more detailed and much more completely finished than comparable sets.
Different in well detailed plastic can often look better than high end brass, and cost less as well. I'd guess this is, at least, partially responsible for brass production dropping off.
Anyway, I expect the Surfliner models will be nice and considering the crazy prices the Surfliner decorated Walthers cars are listed on fleabay, these should be attractive to fans of these trains. I think they post-dated when I lived in California and I never saw them personally.
Nevin WilsonHow much do boxed brass sets go for?
I got a deal on these for $3500.
PRR_1952-Congressional by Edmund, on Flickr
No lights, no interiors, heck, they didn't even include couplers.
I'm thrilled to have them. There aren't any Surfliners on my radar but Walthers just announced a bunch of Pennsy cars coming up that I'll probably pick up a few of. And I've gladly plunked down some cash on Rapido's New Haven cars and many of their Budd offerings.
Diner_patrons7 by Edmund, on Flickr
Lots and lots of Walthers stuff, too.
IMG_0068_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
This is my one-and-only sound-equipped passenger car:
C_NW_PS-bilevels by Edmund, on Flickr
$35 bucks for a Soundtraxx decoder. Horn and bell, of course. Lighting effects which also allows me to have the strobe beacon, directional markers and headlight, too. I can turn the interior lights on or off. There's an air conditioner compressor sound that randomly comes on, too. Sure, these things are nothing but frills but if I'm going to install a decoder for the lights anyway, why not get some sound for a few dollars more.
If I can increase the enjoyment of my hobby value I'm all-in. I rode many of these trains in the late '60s and early Amtrak days and running some of these passenger trains helps to rekindle fond memories of those days.
Cheers, Ed
Maybe a deal at $3500 but my wife would probably get very upset if I dropped that much money at once on a set of train cars in one go, good deal or not. But it's all relative to what our finances may be; to some, that's chump change. And what I can afford maybe to too much for others.
In a vacuum increasing my enjoyment of the hobby sounds good; but it isn't that simple for many of us. I'm not sure all wives can take the argument you made there Ed. Even supportive wives. But then again, there are bachelors out there who may have more freedom to do as they wish.
riogrande5761 Maybe a deal at $3500 but my wife would probably get very upset if I dropped that much money at once on a set of train cars in one go, good deal or not. But it's all relative to what our finances may be; to some, that's chump change. And what I can afford maybe to too much for others. In a vacuum increasing my enjoyment of the hobby sounds good; but it isn't that simple for many of us. I'm not sure all wives can take the argument you made there Ed. Even supportive wives. But then again, there are bachelors out there who may have more freedom to do as they wish.
Yes, it is all relative and subjective to each individuals personal values, resources and situation.
Many simply can't invest that much in their hobby, others won't, even if they have it to spend.
Personal example, my wife and I have always had nice cars, bought new cars, bought practical cars that suit our life style needs. Not the most expensive, but not economy cars in price or operating costs by any measure.
But the first time we needed a car and the desirable choice was over $30,000 , she had a hard time with that. Peoples emotional sense of value often does not keep up with inflation or social/market changes, especially as we get older.
We bought the car. She loved it. It spoiled her. The next two cars have cost nearly $50,000 a piece. The $30,000 car was in 2008.
richhotrain Doughless What the manufacturer sees that would lead them to think a critical mass of customers who want a sunroof also would want a 22 function massaging seat, I have no idea. Probably just trying to find a reason to justify charging your wife $2,100 for a $1,200 sunroof...and make her feel like she's getting value. Not saying that train companies would do anything like that. No matter, my point remains the same. Why do I have to buy what I don't want to get what I do want?
No matter, my point remains the same. Why do I have to buy what I don't want to get what I do want?
We all have to do that up to a point. Stats might prove me wrong, but it feels to me like I am being pulled up passed that point too often these days. Maybe its normal to fell that way as i get older.
Athearn is a big company and can float product test balloons every once in a while to see if something sticks. I think they have that onboard sound refrigeration car. Not too many sound equipped cars out there.
They took the trouble to make a model of a loco that only had a total of three (or was it four) produced, the EMD GP40P-2. They made it both in SP paint and UP paint, spanning different owners.
I'm glad they did. I think its a cool looking diesel. Didn't cost more than a normal GP40-2 though.