I received a mail where Horizon Hobby is announce the release of the Surfliner Cars.
They are selling single cars and a set of 5 cars.
Luckily I was sitting behind my computer when I saw the price for the set of 5 cars with sound and light; $799.99 and a single car with sound and light $199.99.
And the 5 set car with only lights is $699.99 and a single car $149.99.
I think this is a lot of money for passenger cars.
And if you do not want the sound and lights because you do not want to spend that money, you have no choice; the option is sound and light or only light the other option is not possible: cars without those electronic gimmick.
I can understand that some model railroaders are asking to have sound and lights on board of passenger cars and are willing to pay a certain amount for that gimmick but I think that a lot of model railroaders do not need or want those expensive gimmicks.
I think with that kind of prices for model trains in the future that many model railroaders will give up their hobby or that you do not attract some youngster into the hobby of model railroading.
Marketing people are generally not train people. A lighted passenger car could still be under $100. I have no idea why anyone would need passenger cars with sound.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I understand that it seems like a lot of money and that prices are getting very high.
Understand this, those prices will be discounted by most retailers about 20%, making the per car price more like $120, still pricey.
But don't think for one minute any company in this industry is just raising prices to be greedy.
They know higher prices will cost them sales.
BUT, contrary to what some will tell you, in a niche hobby like this, prices are driven primarily by the cost of production plus the minimum reasonable profit to stay in business.
Seldom in the whole history of this hobby has a manufacturer been able to make a product at such a low production cost that they could add in extra markup and still sell lots of product.
Production costs are up, here, China, it does not matter, they are up.
This has never been an inexpensive hobby, and if you study economics and understand inflation, if you go back several decades or longer and adjust those prices, you will see how prices to day are similar to prices years ago.
The 1990's and early 2000's was actually a time with some of the lowest prices ever in this hobby - adjusted for inflation.
Yes, prices are on the rise, but are still likely similar to pervious decades in adjusted cost.
The young people argument I will not get into, other than to say there are lots of lower cost products, new and used.
Sheldon
southernpacificgs4 I received a mail where Horizon Hobby is announce the release of the Surfliner Cars. They are selling single cars and a set of 5 cars. Luckily I was sitting behind my computer when I saw the price for the set of 5 cars with sound and light; $799.99 and a single car with sound and light $199.99. And the 5 set car with only lights is $699.99 and a single car $149.99. I think this is a lot of money for passenger cars. And if you do not want the sound and lights because you do not want to spend that money, you have no choice; the option is sound and light or only light the other option is not possible: cars without those electronic gimmick. I can understand that some model railroaders are asking to have sound and lights on board of passenger cars and are willing to pay a certain amount for that gimmick but I think that a lot of model railroaders do not need or want those expensive gimmicks. I think with that kind of prices for model trains in the future that many model railroaders will give up their hobby or that you do not attract some youngster into the hobby of model railroading.
$140 for a passenger car is ridiculous. Even discounted to $120 is absurb.
If no one bought any, it would teach Horizon a lesson. At least make the lighting and sound optional.
Rich
Alton Junction
And this only what seems to be weeks since the last jeremiad about 'no cars to go with the F59s'...
MisterBeasleyI have no idea why anyone would need passenger cars with sound.
And yes, toilets flush. That perhaps is just a bit too much realism. Helpfully absent is cab or commuter chatter... something I will confess I'd be tempted to allow users to program...
On the other hand, even for normal discount off that $799, I'd expect actual door opening and closing to go with the whooshing sound of them opening and closing. Perhaps that will be the next cool programmable MTH-style toy feature...
richhotrain southernpacificgs4 I received a mail where Horizon Hobby is announce the release of the Surfliner Cars. They are selling single cars and a set of 5 cars. Luckily I was sitting behind my computer when I saw the price for the set of 5 cars with sound and light; $799.99 and a single car with sound and light $199.99. And the 5 set car with only lights is $699.99 and a single car $149.99. I think this is a lot of money for passenger cars. And if you do not want the sound and lights because you do not want to spend that money, you have no choice; the option is sound and light or only light the other option is not possible: cars without those electronic gimmick. I can understand that some model railroaders are asking to have sound and lights on board of passenger cars and are willing to pay a certain amount for that gimmick but I think that a lot of model railroaders do not need or want those expensive gimmicks. I think with that kind of prices for model trains in the future that many model railroaders will give up their hobby or that you do not attract some youngster into the hobby of model railroading. I agree with you 100%. $140 for a passenger car is ridiculous. Even discounted to $120 is absurb. If no one bought any, it would teach Horizon a lesson. At least make the lighting and sound optional. Rich
I agree with you 100%.
Yes, maybe it would teach them a lesson.
And I could be wrong, but it might not be the lesson you are thinking.
The lesson might be that the market will no longer support cars of a certain detail level and with certain electronic features.
Which would move us back to passenger cars like the generic ones I run. And while I spend lots of time and money upgrading them, not one of them sold for more than $30, most only $10 to $15 when I bought them 20 and 30 years ago.
But the inflation calculator says that $12 Blue box kit I bought in 1990 would now be $25. No lights, no interior, no wire grab irons, no separate small underbody details.
High detail plastic models have become the new brass, and they have the prices to match.
Overmod And this only what seems to be weeks since the last jeremiad about 'no cars to go with the F59s'... MisterBeasley I have no idea why anyone would need passenger cars with sound. Cab cars have horns. Wheels click. Doors open and close with noise and alert chimes. And yes, toilets flush. That perhaps is just a bit too much realism. Helpfully absent is cab or commuter chatter... something I will confess I'd be tempted to allow users to program... On the other hand, even for normal discount off that $799, I'd expect actual door opening and closing to go with the whooshing sound of them opening and closing. Perhaps that will be the next cool programmable MTH-style toy feature...
MisterBeasley I have no idea why anyone would need passenger cars with sound.
Cab cars have horns. Wheels click. Doors open and close with noise and alert chimes.
As we have all lost sight of the fact that we generally view these models at distances equal to 300 feet or more.....
As I drive past the Aberdeen MD AMTRAK station, less that 100' off US 40, even in nice weather with my windows down, I can't hear any of those noises.
One can barely hear the trains........ OK, horns yes.
But, here's the thing, Sheldon. The OP doesn't want lights and sound. Maybe someone else is nuts enough to pay $120 to 140 for such luxury, but not everyone is nuts and not everyone wants lights and sound in a passenger car. Make it optional.
As the OP said, with those kind of prices for model trains, in the future many model railroaders will give up their hobby and you will not attract youngsters into the hobby.
As with any hobby or sport, you can control your costs. I rarely purchase new stuff because I just do not have the income to do so. I purchase what I need to do what I want to do with the hobby. Sometimes that means a long project of refurbishing old Blue Box or Yellow Box locos, etc. I love the hobby and the high prices will not chase me away - because I know I can do a lot of stuff without paying a lot of money. And I've been doing that since I was a young boy in the hobby.
Yes new passenger cars are expensive, yet I tried to sell some older passenger cars on Ebay and was surprised at how little I sold them for. Bargains are out there. If someone really wants to be in the hobby, they find the way to do it.
People will spend what they want to spend and manufactures will charge what they want to charge. Presumably Horizon Hobby has done their homework and has enough evidence or faith that folks are going to plop down that much cash for a car (or set of cars) with lights or sound & lights. I can't imagine what sound would be necessary coming from a passenger train to make me want to pay the additional cost for that feature.
I purchased the 5-car set of MTH 20th Century Limited cars when they came out in early 2013 and MSRP for those was roughly $95 per car. The detailing was very good and the super cap lighting module was fantastic. I eventually purchased the remaining sets to complete the full 10-car set for less than MSRP. Worth every penny (to me) and they look great. They don't make any sound other than the clickity-clack from the metal wheels and that's good enough for me.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
richhotrain But, here's the thing, Sheldon. The OP doesn't want lights and sound. Maybe someone else is nuts enough to pay $120 to 140 for such luxury, but not everyone is nuts and not everyone wants lights and sound in a passenger car. Make it optional. As the OP said, with those kind of prices for model trains, in the future many model railroaders will give up their hobby and you will not attract youngsters into the hobby. Rich
Rich, I'm not disgreeing with any of that. I am just a market observer, especially considering two facts, I have most of what I want, and I have experiance in this industry.
First problem - one group of modelers/collectors demands these high detail, high cost models. many others are less picky. But you see how some of us "less picky" modelers get treated on here sometimes.....
Second problem - as time marches forward, there are are more prototypes to make models of without a proportional increase in consumers. This means lower sales per sku, which means higher production costs.
Third problem - too many sku's raises production cost and increases dead inventory risk - that's why fewer and fewer undecorated models about which I am not happy.
I just know this, adjusted for inflation $30 box cars are not expensive, they are the $10 box cars from 40 years ago. I bought lots of those $10 box cars and thought he price was fine.
I remember $2 blue Box kits, but Athearn had the lowest prices becuase they did the most volume and cranked out the same stuff year after year.
The market will not settle for that today, just like you did not warm up to generic shorty passenger cars when I asked that question.
Companies like Bachmann try to find the middle road, and take a lot of heat from the rivet counters..... and Athearn still sells a lot of upgraded Blue box items at more reasonable prices, but clearly all their new tooling is leaning in the higher detail direction.
History lesson - you know all those 25 and 30 year old Proto2000 locos you can still buy new in the box on Ebay? LifeLike had the money to get the lowest production price - that price required mid to high five digit production numbers of a given loco for each run. We hear stories today about stuff only being produced in the hundreds......... Because the hobby was different then, LifeLike was able to do that and just sell them for years - but things changed.
Look, I'm not happy about the state of this industry, but I don't see an answer that would change things.
Surfliner cars? I'm never buying a set.
Old Blue Box passengers cars, only 13 different cars that share common underframes and trucks, I have several hundred, many kitbashed and reworked, something only me, Wayne and six other people seem to do anymore.
It is all about economy of scale.....
Walthers Passenger Train of the Year was announced today. The PRR "The General"
There is going to be a deluxe edition with 13 cars and 120 figures, as well as LED lighting
There is also going to be a 12 X29b box car + caboose freight car set.
Prices were not mentioned in the video but they must think someone has a lot of money to spend and a big enough layout.
The first half of the video is the contest winners and it's worth a look because there is some really nice work.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
My first reply to this thread was to agree with the OP that manufacturers are loading up their models with unnecessary luxuries and charging outrageous prices. They offer no option to purchase a model without these unnecessary luxuries. In the long term, and maybe even the short term, they are driving modelers out of the hobby and discouraging newcomers. The purpose of this reply is to continue to agree with the OP.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAs I drive past the Aberdeen MD AMTRAK station, less that 100' off US 40, even in nice weather with my windows down, I can't hear any of those noises
Heck, I can't hear those sounds when I'm on the platform at L'Enfant Plaza and the only sound you can hear is the idling MP36PH-3Cs.
This thread reminds me of the time not so many years ago when I lobbied Jason at Rapido to produce a version of the Monon streamlined passenger car. When it came out, the MSRP was $85. Now, I was in the market for a 6 passenger car consist. Yikes, that would have cost me $510. And the only car in that consist would have been a coach because that is all that Rapido produced. No diner, no sleeper, no baggage, just the coach. So, I took a pass.
richhotrain But, here's the thing, Sheldon. The OP doesn't want lights and sound. Maybe someone else is nuts enough to pay $120 to 140 for such luxury, but not everyone is nuts and not everyone wants lights and sound in a passenger car. Make it optional.
Then he/she should not buy them. There is no reason Athearn needs to make a model for everyone. Just because you think they are nuts to pay $120 for a car means nothing. I think someone is nuts for not getting lighting on a car that had it in real life. Different strokes for different folks.
richhotrain As the OP said, with those kind of prices for model trains, in the future many model railroaders will give up their hobby and you will not attract youngsters into the hobby. Rich
Oh please. There are plenty of cheaper models out there. When I was young, you could settle for Model Power, Bachmann or Tyco toys. You could take a step up to Athearn blue box, or a bigger step up to Atlas/Proto2000. Or you could leap up to brass. Nothing is different here. This is a high end model, of a prototype that was limited to operation in one state and less than a 100 total were built. Most likely a small market for Athearn.
An "expensive model collector"
I don't have any $100 RTR passenger cars. I do have Branchline kits which were not "inexpensive".
But here is an interesting illustration from the past.
Going way back, Walthers sold passenger car kits made of wood floors and roofs, stamped metal sides and die cast metal ends. In later years they came with plastic roofs. The cars had prototype accurate lengths and window arrangements and the selection was pretty good.
This Ebay listing will give those of you not familiar some idea:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/384273938870?hash=item597882f9b6:g:accAAOSweExg7hvG
The prices on the boxes in the Ebay listing reflect what I remember from the early 70's.
Not exactly sure when these came on the market, 1940"s? But they were a staple thru my early days in the hobby and were finally discontinued in 1982/1983.
The 1983 Walthers catalog contains the last few that remained available.
The kit was basic, less trucks and couplers, no diaphragms, interiors or lighting. But all those things could be purchased in separate kits to make a more detailed model.
Here is a typical cost breakdown to build one heavyweight passenger car from the 1983 Walthers catalog:
Car kit - $15.00
Die cast trucks - $8.00 (better Central Valley sprung trucks were even more)
Interior kit - $6.50
Diaphragms - $1.40
Deluxe four bulb tubular lighting kit - $9.00
Kadee couplers (2 pr) - $2.55
Total - $42.45
I built a few, but generally the idea of a whole fleet was a lot of building and a lot of money.
Interestingly, when you put $42.45 from 1983 into the inflation calulator, today that is $115.80
If you wanted accuracy and detail then, kits like this or brass were the two choices.
At that same time the Athearn blue Box passenger cars were $5.50, or about $15 today. And for another $5, Walthers would sell you an interior kit designed for the Athearn car. (these interior kits were soft metal castings, wood shapes and card stock)
So, if you really want that level of detail today, $100 or $150, may not really be all that bad.
Personally I don't need interiors. I see passenger trains in real life every day, I can't see inside them?
I add some details to my $10 Athearn cars, by the time I'm done, I have $25-$40 in most of them.
Anyway, it has never been an inexpenive hobby when done to a high level of detail or on a large scale. And it seems it is no more expensive today, and maybe less so, than it was 40 years ago?
Most of the replies fail to acknowledge the basic premise of the OP's initial post. It is not a rant. It is a well stated disappointment over the outrageous pricing of the Amtrak Surfliner passenger car. Athearn (Horizon) could have produced a portion of the cars with sound and lighting optional, but it chose not to.
I don't know much of anything about the Amtrak Surfliner passenger car, but it does appear that at one time Walthers produced a more basic model with an MSRP of $70. Each individual modeler will decide for himself what is "reasonable", but to my mind, $70 seems right while $140 seems wrong.
A lot of the replies quickly race to the defense of the poor manufacturer who can barely make ends meet. Do you really believe that? Or, do you subscribe to my school of thought that the model railroading manufacturers have a captive audience of 55 to 85 year old males who have the discretionary funds to to cave to the manufacturers if they want a model bad enough?
I hearken back to my example of the Rapido Monon Coach with an MSRP of $85. I wanted it. Could I afford it? Sure, but I set a sensible limit and did without it because a 6 car set of coaches would have set me back $510. So, I did without them. Recently, a single Rapido Monon coach (NIB) sold on eBay for $300 - - supply and demand.
Yeah, I think someone is nuts to spend outrageous amounts for model railroad cars, but to each his own.
n012944 richhotrain But, here's the thing, Sheldon. The OP doesn't want lights and sound. Maybe someone else is nuts enough to pay $120 to 140 for such luxury, but not everyone is nuts and not everyone wants lights and sound in a passenger car. Make it optional. Then he/she should not buy them. There is no reason Athearn needs to make a model for everyone. Just because you think they are nuts to pay $120 for a car means nothing. I think someone is nuts for not getting lighting on a car that had it in real life. Different strokes for different folks. richhotrain As the OP said, with those kind of prices for model trains, in the future many model railroaders will give up their hobby and you will not attract youngsters into the hobby. Rich Oh please. There are plenty of cheaper models out there. When I was young, you could settle for Model Power, Bachmann or Tyco toys. You could take a step up to Athearn blue box, or a bigger step up to Atlas/Proto2000. Or you could leap up to brass. Nothing is different here. This is a high end model, of a prototype that was limited to operation in one state and less than a 100 total were built. Most likely a small market for Athearn.
Pretty much this ^
I imagine Athearn will sell out of the Surfliner cars; those who want them enough will find a way to buy them. The rest will complain about the high prices. As the Mandalorian says "This is the way".
It hasn't escaped me that Athearns announcements over the past 6 or so months have exhibited a sizable jump over past years. The cost of manufacture in China has increased, the cost of container shipping has increased greatly, and we have inflation now driving general costs up past few months and no idea when that will moderate.
I've always disliked having to wait years for a product I wanted to be produced because the prices would be higher when it finally hit the market.
Anyway, these products are "toys" for us and not necessary things like food, or a roof over our heads. There are people in the world who have a difficult time just getting the essentials, and here we are complaining about the price of toys. Nuff said.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
richhotrain manufacturers are loading up their models with unnecessary luxuries and charging outrageous prices. They offer no option to purchase a model without these unnecessary luxuries.
Its a characteristic of a niche market with limited players, or of a larger market that's controlled. Its really apparent with products that have anything to do with electronics.
More features, even if you never asked for them.
What producers offer as product is becoming less demand-based. JMO. I think its more about having limited access to a relatively small number of production facilities/processes that are highly managed. While the space is yours for the next few months, its best to go for the high margin during that limited window.
Maybe someday we'll only be able to choose golf clubs that have built in software that automatically tracks the number of mis-hits you make, and if its a slice or a hook.
- Douglas
Now, here is a good deal. For a mere $200, you can get the diner.
Doughless Maybe someday we'll only be able to choose golf clubs that have built in software that automatically tracks the number of mis-hits you make, and if its a slice or a hook.
As for extra features, apparently manufacturers who offer same models with less features and those with extra, such as DCC sound etc, they say the extra features models tend to sell the best. I'm guessing that is why we are seeing this trend (market driven). That does mean less availability of lower cost versoins of models, but the market does tend to drive products.
For $200, that diner needs not only lights and sound but also smells.
I wanna sniff that wonderful Amtrak cooking as the diner passes by.
Please pass the worcestershire sauce!
riogrande5761they say the extra features models tend to sell the best. I'm guessing that is why we are seeing this trend (market driven)
Sales from 10 people providing a company with $1,000 profit is better than sale from 30 people providing a company with $900 profit. But that's not the same thing as selling "the best".
But Athearn plays in several markets. My guess is that passenger cars sell to the really old side of our hobby customers (sorry) who have more money to spend on hobbies.
Also, there are different levels of electronic "features" in models. Sound in a loco is a natural evolution. Sill lighting (Rapido), cab chatter (Tsunami), and the sounds in these passenger cars is probably not really a market driven thing. JMO.
These passenger cars have been asked for on other forums by modelers for a long time. To be honest, I thought Kato would pull the plug and do these as I think their HO scale passenger cars are far superior to Walthers or others out there. So kudos to Athearn on announcing these cars. Time will tell if they're successful.
Many manufacturers can't please everyone, so they try to please as many as they can.
Just an example on ways Athearn (Horizon) is trying to make things affordable. They recently announced in the Roundhouse line GP38-2 engines in both DC and DCC equipped - no sound! I had wanted to get one but the last experience with trying to install a decoder in this series of engines was a major disappointment, PLUS you had to take the engine shell off the frame to change the couplers! This run has an NCE decoder in it, AND you can change the couplers without taking off the shell. It's about time! One of their retailers was having a sale on these engines, and I bought one! Runs great. Is it detailed like a Genesis or other higher end engines? Nope. Does is suit my needs? Yes. It looks good, and will get a workout on my layout during operating sessions.
JMHO. Everyone has one....
Neal
PS. No, I am not buying any Surfliners at this time, unless my nephew thinks he would want to run them on my layout, then I will buy them. Hey, I'm the uncle and can spoil the kid!
nealknows I thought Kato would pull the plug and do these as I think their HO scale passenger cars are far superior to Walthers or others out there.
Neal,
Maybe Kato did pull the plug...because Walthers pulled the trigger?
Just thinking here.
Maybe the Surfliner cars appeal to a smaller fan base that have higher demands than the general population of model railroaders.
Offering high end, high detail, high feature passenger cars to a small and demanding group sounds like the proper approach.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
tstage Neal, Maybe Kato did pull the plug...because Walthers pulled the trigger? Tom
Okay, it's too early for the wording here. I need a few more Diet Cokes. Yes, Kato would pull the trigger..
Neal (Heading out for more Diet Coke)
SeeYou190 Just thinking here. Maybe the Surfliner cars appeal to a smaller fan base that have higher demands than the general population of model railroaders. Offering high end, high detail, high feature passenger cars to a small and demanding group sounds like the proper approach. -Kevin
I think that's a good way to put it.
Rich's concern seems to be a broader comment on the hobby trending as a whole. I'm not into passenger cars, so I don't know the availability of lower end products.
Look at it from automobiles.
How the industry offers products has changed. Back in 1970, you could take a base Chevy Impala and basically pick any option and add it to your order. You could have a base model, with two premium features and nothing else.
I'll use modern Honda as a comparison. The LX is base, the EX, the EXL, and the Touring, etc. Each phase is basically a cluster of options grouped together as a package added to the trim level below.
If I want better intermittent wipers, I have to by the EX, which also comes with things I don't want. Leather?, even more. Navigation?
That would be like in 1970, having to order the chrome side moulding, upgraded floor mats, four speaker radio; just to go from the six cylinder to a v8.
Said another way, you have to buy a bunch of stuff you dont want first, then they'll let you buy the stuff you do want.
Back in 2000, I bought a Chevy Camaro (great car actually). It was a base with no power windows or power locks, or cruise control. Because I was single, I could simply lock the only other door to the car by myself. The issue was that cruise only came with the option of PW and PL package. The dealer balked at adding cruise until he found out from the mechanics that all camaros had all of the wiring installed upthrough the steering column and all that was needed was that ubiquitous GM stalk with the controls on it replaceing the normal wiper stalk.
GM could easily have made cruise a separate option, but no, you had to buy other stuff too. And visa versa. If you wanted power windows, you also needed to buy power locks (in a two door car) and cruise.
Because product sells well, does not mean its market driven.
I would call it consumer acceptance, not consumer driven.