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Intermodal

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Posted by jmilleratp on Sunday, July 11, 2021 3:35 AM

Great video, Neal! Thank you. It is great to see these cars in action. John

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Posted by caldreamer on Sunday, July 11, 2021 8:28 AM

Yes to both questions.  What I do is to permenently glue enough weight to the bottom of the container so that when stacked and put in a car the car weight equals the NMRA standard.  I mark the bottom of the containers that contain weight and use unweighted ones on top.  I use rubber cement to attach the top container to the lower one(s).  You can detach the top container rub off the rubber cement.  There is no damage to the conttainer and you will not even know that it had any glue on it.

 

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Sunday, July 11, 2021 10:03 AM

caldreamer
You can detach the top container rub off the rubber cement.  There is no damage to the conttainer and you will not even know that it had any glue on it.

Rubber cement is almost a perfect temporary adhesive.

Good tip.

-Kevin

Living the dream.

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Posted by 7j43k on Sunday, July 11, 2021 11:20 AM

Lastspikemike

Bear in mind the intended or modelled traffic of your railroad.

International container traffic is almost exclusively 20' and 40'. Something like 90%.

That's probably closer to 97%, with the rest being 45'.  Also, keep in mind that there are both standard height 40's (8'-6") and hi-cube 40's (9'-6").

North American internal traffic uses 53' pretty commonly but the other less common sizes are also seen:45', 48' and even 56'. 

 

There are no 56' containers.  There are 56' well cars.

I've gone through some photos of domestic intermodal trains.  Containers are all 53', except for perhaps 1 or 2 48's.  

40's and the occasional 45' show in these trains sometimes.  I'm not sure whether they're in domestic service with the 53's, or international service, and filling out the train. 

One of my faves (in domestic service) was a 5-unit well car with 40' wells.  In the lower position, it was all 40' (of course).  In the upper, it was 53-40-53-40-53.  Keep in mind that most of the rest of the train was either 53' containers in 53' wells, or trailers on spine cars.  A "domestic" train.

 

Ed

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Posted by caldreamer on Sunday, July 11, 2021 11:24 AM

True, BUT you have to purchase the Kato containers.  The paper containers are free.  I use them stacked in my intermodal yard as well as on my well cars.  Also, I always weigh my 20 ft containers since they are always on the bottom.

According the UMLER (Uniform Machine Language Equipment Register) data specifications for containers. Just about any combination of containers can be used.  See the following link and go intermodal flat. Go to stackability and you will see the loading types. https://public.railinc.com/sites/default/files/documents/UmlerDataSpecs.pdf

 

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Posted by jmilleratp on Sunday, July 11, 2021 12:13 PM

Caldreamer, Thank you again, very much, for the answers. Using weights sounds good, and I will follow the suggestions for how to do it that you included. Do you recommend a certain kind of weight? And, do you have a suggestion as to where I could buy those weights? I am lining up cardboard containers to buy at https://cardkitmodels.com/. It is great that, with cardboard, you can get the latest containers, like Amazon. Thanks again! John

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Posted by caldreamer on Sunday, July 11, 2021 1:02 PM

John:

  You can purchase lead weights at your local hobby shop, or as I do go to your nearest Walmart and get an exceptional variety of fishing weights very inexpensively.  I also get used car wheel weights which I get from my local tire shop.  I cut them down and use them as well.

 

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Sunday, July 11, 2021 7:28 PM
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Posted by NittanyLion on Sunday, July 11, 2021 8:25 PM

If you want to get picky, the Diolkos back in 600BCE was functionally an intermodal rail-marine cargo system. 

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Sunday, July 11, 2021 8:46 PM

NittanyLion
functionally an intermodal rail-marine cargo system. 

The debate on whether or not the Diolkos was a railway has been going on for generations.

I will not share my stance on the subject, but my view is very entrenched and not subject to being changed.

-Kevin

Living the dream.

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Posted by jmilleratp on Monday, July 12, 2021 2:44 AM

Caldreamer, Thank you again! I appreciate it. John

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Posted by zugmann on Monday, July 12, 2021 9:46 AM

BEAUSABRE

Intermodal goes surprisingly far back. The PRR was hauling containers in the 1930's

What's amazing is that some of those containers can still be found in old railyards (although some have been lost in recent years - incl. this one). 

 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, July 12, 2021 10:09 AM

zugmann
What's amazing is that some of those containers can still be found in old railyards.

Well... I actually saw one of those near a rail line out West last month, and it did not occur to me what it was, and I did not get a picture.

Sad

-Kevin

Living the dream.

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Posted by cv_acr on Monday, July 12, 2021 12:12 PM

SeeYou190

 

 
NittanyLion
I have a 2008 ORER. 

 

I have the ORER from my era, and I have found it not to be useful at all.

What do you use it for? What am I missing?

-Kevin

 

 

It lists all the freight cars in interchange service at that time, so you can use it to look up car series and verify whether it was in service in your time frame.

It WON'T tell you paint scheme or builder information, but has detailed dimensional information (which sometimes you can infer the design from the capacity and size).

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Posted by BNSF UP and others modeler on Monday, July 12, 2021 12:36 PM

jmilleratp

Caldreamer, Thank you very much! This is very cool. Have you stacked the cardboard containers? And, would it be good to take or glue small weights inside to give them a little bit of heft? Thank you for your answers! John

 

Careful careful!

I've tried those containers. While they look very nice on the website, I've been very dissapointed with real life results. You see, they aren't designed so that you can fold the container corrugations into a 3d shape. They are "printed" on, which means all of your shipping containers will have flat sides, and it looks EXTREMELY tacky. The exception is the few they have on the website that are models of smooth sided prototypes. Those look passable. However, since these are made of paper, its almost impossible to make the square and striaght, unless you cut blocks of wood to stick inside... (haven't tried, but seems like would work).

I have no idea what your budget or standard for model appearance is, but I would highly suggest looking into getting your container fleet 3d printed. Many of mine are, and they cost me pennies (granted I own a resin 3d printer). Much cheaper than a pack of 3 for $35 - $40 from a commercial manufacturer.

Food for thought...

I'm beginning to realize that Windows 10 and sound decoders have a lot in common. There are so many things you have to change in order to get them to work the way you want.

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, July 12, 2021 12:39 PM

cv_acr
It lists all the freight cars in interchange service at that time, so you can use it to look up car series and verify whether it was in service in your time frame.

Since I am freelancing everything, the useful parts of the ORER are very limited.

I am sure others have found the information very useful.

-Kevin

Living the dream.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, July 12, 2021 12:57 PM

BNSF UP and others modeler
...I would highly suggest looking into getting your container fleet 3D-printed. Many of mine are, and they cost me pennies (granted I own a resin 3d printer).

How much would you quote him via PM for whatever number of containers he wants, shipped to his address? Angel

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Monday, July 12, 2021 3:08 PM

SeeYou190
Well... I actually saw one of those near a rail line out West last month, and it did not occur to me what it was, and I did not get a picture.

Since you model 1954, PRR was still offering container service - primarily in bulk (for such things as cement) rather then LCL containers. So maybe you could justify a car showing up on your railroad occasionally. Bowser offers a LCL car

English's Model Railroad HO LCL Container, PRR HB4 (2 pcs) (bowserorders.com)

and Westerfeld a bulk car

PRR G22 Gondola with HB1a Bulk Service Containers photo - John Frantz photos at pbase.com

Ya want the dirty details of PRR's container and container car fleet, get a copy of The Keystone, Spring 1985 - still available from the PRRT&HS

The LV offered "canister" service

Lehigh Valley RR Cement Gondola | Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine (model-railroad-hobbyist.com)

as did DL&W and NYC (that I know of)

ny-2.jpg (1600×1209) (canadasouthern.com)

Question about Gondola Load - Trains Magazine - Trains News Wire, Railroad News, Railroad Industry News, Web Cams, and Forms

Commodity Flows of Portland Cement | modeling the CNW in Milwaukee, 1957 (cnwmodeling.blogspot.com)

I have a hunch the CNJ, L&HR and L&NE - all of which served the "Cement Belt" - got involved as well. When L&NE went belly up, the CNJ bought serveral of its branches and a bunch of its covered hoppers at the estate sale to serve this traffic.

 

 

 

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, July 12, 2021 3:52 PM

BEAUSABRE
When L&NE went belly up...

Lehign & New England never got poor and died.  They were predominantly mining interests that owned a railroad to serve their concerns, and with anthracite demand falling off, they made an executive decision to close the railroad.

Not like the Old &Weary -- as far as I knew L&NE ran first-class to the last day.

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Posted by 7j43k on Monday, July 12, 2021 4:12 PM

Lastspikemike

The key feature of container traffic is the intermodal concept. 

A boxcar is a shipping container, it just happens to sit on its own set of wheels.

A barrel is an intermodal shipping container.

And a cardboard box is then an intermodal shipping container.  Sure, it's not round and metal.  But don't forget that barrels can be wood.  And cardboard is sorta wood.

And an envelope is then an intermodal shipping container.  It's a flat cardboard box, utilizing lightweight non-corrugated high quality cardboard.

Intermodal refers to the standardization of the containers making them suitable for transport by rail and by truck by moving the whole thing from one to the other.

intermodal:  involving two or more different modes of transportation in conveying goods.

A trailer on a flat is intermodal.

For transport and handling by sea the container itself needed to be standardized. Interlocking fittings and internal structures are standardized. 

So that barrel you referred to as an "intermodal shipping container", if shipped by sea, should be standardized.  I suppose.  They stack a lot better that way.  Same for cardboard boxes.

Intermodal does NOT refer to the standardization of the containers.  See above definition.  Not a WORD about standardization of containers.

 

Ed

 

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Posted by 7j43k on Monday, July 12, 2021 6:43 PM

Lastspikemike
 

Amazing by how much you missed my point.

Not really.  You didn't have one.  You made up your own definitions, and did not build a logical structure--you meandered almost randomly.

Makes me wonder how much I could mislead you if I actually tried to.

But you didn't mislead me.  You simply failed to make a coherent point.

Among many, many examples readily available on the internet here's just one company actually in the business describing intermodal freight logistics:

https://www.intekfreight-logistics.com/the-complete-guide-intermodal-transportation

And, you see, your own example says that trailers on flat cars is intermodal.  Trailers are not standardized containers.

Again:  "Intermodal" does not mean "standardized containers".  See, instead, the definition I posted.

Barrels?  BARRELS?  Precious!

 

Ed

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by 7j43k on Monday, July 12, 2021 7:06 PM

Lastspikemike

Amazing by how much you missed my point. 

 

 
 
Let me help you out on that.  
 
I think your first sentence was very close to being that point:
 
"The key feature of container traffic is the intermodal concept."
 
Except I think you also should have added "...and standardization of containers."  Which you sort of attempted to do later.  BUT you should have put it in the first sentence because it's equally important.
 
Thus:
 
"The key feature of container traffic is the intermodal concept and standarization of containers."
 
From there you could explain the two concepts a bit:
 
"Intermodal means transporting freight by two or more methods.  By using different types, you can get the best of each; and thus become more efficient than if you just stayed with one type.
 
But.  Moving freight between the various types must be done, yes, efficiently.  By using standardized containers, it's possible to do that very quickly and reliably."
 
 
Point made and backed up.  
 
Unless, of course, I missed the point.  If I did, I hope you'll point that out.
 
Ed
 
 
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Posted by Track fiddler on Monday, July 12, 2021 7:08 PM

Lastspikemike

 

 
7j43k

 

 
Lastspikemike

The key feature of container traffic is the intermodal concept. 

A boxcar is a shipping container, it just happens to sit on its own set of wheels.

A barrel is an intermodal shipping container.

 

 

And a cardboard box is then an intermodal shipping container.  Sure, it's not round and metal.  But don't forget that barrels can be wood.  And cardboard is sorta wood.

And an envelope is then an intermodal shipping container.  It's a flat cardboard box, utilizing lightweight non-corrugated high quality cardboard.

 

 

Intermodal refers to the standardization of the containers making them suitable for transport by rail and by truck by moving the whole thing from one to the other.

 

 

intermodal:  involving two or more different modes of transportation in conveying goods.

A trailer on a flat is intermodal.

 

 

For transport and handling by sea the container itself needed to be standardized. Interlocking fittings and internal structures are standardized. 

 

 

So that barrel you referred to as an "intermodal shipping container", if shipped by sea, should be standardized.  I suppose.  They stack a lot better that way.  Same for cardboard boxes.

Intermodal does NOT refer to the standardization of the containers.  See above definition.  Not a WORD about standardization of containers.

 

Ed

 

 

 

 

 

Amazing by how much you missed my point. Makes me wonder how much I could mislead you if I actually tried to.

Among many, many examples readily available on the internet here's just one company actually in the business describing intermodal freight logistics:

https://www.intekfreight-logistics.com/the-complete-guide-intermodal-transportation

 

 

 

Years ago there was a ski shop about 7 miles from me in St Louis Park called Trollhaugen.  I loved that place when I skied but it is not there anymore

Ed,  Let me be Frank here even though I'm JohnWhistling

I've always loved you and people like you because people like you are the sort of people that make the world keep working.  That was a big compliment and I don't give those out very oftenSmile, Wink & Grin

Opinionated you are but usually you are right 97.2% of the timeWink

I never need to argue with an intelligent man and neither do you.  But I do need to tell you to quit dinking around with arguments where they don't belong or get anywhere and I already know you're an intelligent enough man to already know that.

 

I think a successful company had a successful business calling this kind of crap fiddle-faddle.

Last I looked in the stores there is no Cracker Jack anymore Ed.  Not by the checkout counters anyhow and if it is somewhere else you don't have to go look for it because you already have it!

 

There's an old proverb that I really like and I would like to share it with you

 

Ignore a fool and he shall leave!  Feed a fool and he shall stick around forever

 

 

 

Smile, Wink & GrinTF

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, July 12, 2021 7:57 PM

Lastspikemike
Amazing by how much you missed my point

No one missed your non-existent point.

Just the usual baiting modus operandi we have have been forced to tolerate.

Lastspikemike
Makes me wonder how much I could mislead you if I actually tried to.

You couldn't.

Most of the people here are real experts, and the rest of us are very good at detecting people who are not.

Though, it is a shame you ruined another interesting thread.

-Kevin

Living the dream.

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Posted by 7j43k on Monday, July 12, 2021 7:57 PM

Thanks for the advice and the proverb, TF.

'Preciate it.

 

Ed

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, July 12, 2021 8:02 PM

7j43k
intermodal:  involving two or more different modes of transportation in conveying goods. A trailer on a flat is intermodal.

So, if I hollow out a giant watermelon, fill it full of all my posessions, put it on a trailer, and then put that trailer on a flat car... THAT would be intermodal!

Got it.

Laugh

Track fiddler
Ignore a fool and he shall leave!  Feed a fool and he shall stick around forever.

Bow

-Kevin

Living the dream.

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Posted by 7j43k on Monday, July 12, 2021 8:30 PM

SeeYou190
So, if I hollow out a giant watermelon, fill it full of all my posessions, put it on a trailer, and then put that trailer on a flat car... THAT would be intermodal! 

 

Well, yeah.  Are you SURE you want all your stuff covered with watermelon juice, though?

 

Don't forget that it was in 1884 that Long Island Railroad started hauled wagons on their freight trains.  Do ya suppose any of those wagons were loaded with mellons grown on Long Island, aimed for New Yawk Citee?

Naahhhhh.....

 

Ed

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Posted by caldreamer on Monday, July 12, 2021 8:33 PM

Kevin:

  Thank you for your compliment about this ORIGINALLY being an interesting topic.

    Caldreamer

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, July 12, 2021 8:55 PM

BEAUSABRE
Since you model 1954, PRR was still offering container service - primarily in bulk (for such things as cement) rather then LCL containers. So maybe you could justify a car showing up on your railroad occasionally. Bowser offers a LCL car

I have a pack of resin containers from Funaro And Camerlengo stashed away for just that reason.

Eventually... I will have one intermodal container car in the fleet.

-Kevin

Living the dream.

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Posted by maxman on Tuesday, July 13, 2021 11:43 AM

Lastspikemike
Your explanations qualify as tendentious and fail to distinguish between denoting and connoting. Context can change a connotation to a denotation as it routinely does in specialized language use.

Can I get a Merriam-Webster to go with that?

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