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Too big of a steam locomotive?

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, May 3, 2021 12:25 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
I can't speak for prices in Canada, but Bachmann street prices here are typically 40% off msrp or more

Bachmann prices remind me of automobile prices in the 1980s. Sticker prices were all very high, but no one really had an idea what the car should really sell for. It all became a big game.

I hope Bachmann gets their prices more close to the real price a consumer should pay. I don't see how advertising crazy high prices is good for them.

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, May 3, 2021 5:29 AM

SeeYou190

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
I can't speak for prices in Canada, but Bachmann street prices here are typically 40% off msrp or more

 

Bachmann prices remind me of automobile prices in the 1980s. Sticker prices were all very high, but no one really had an idea what the car should really sell for. It all became a big game.

I hope Bachmann gets their prices more close to the real price a consumer should pay. I don't see how advertising crazy high prices is good for them.

-Kevin

 

I don't disagree, but I don't expect it to change.

And the reasons they do this are a very long discussion of the history of pricing in the industry.

Bottom line is, the real price of Bachmann is 40% off.

There was a time when there was little or no discounting in this industry. Today, I don't have much respect for any companies MSRP, they are all playing a new game.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Lastspikemike on Monday, May 3, 2021 9:30 AM

The msrp is now the online price.

I've not seen any mechanism to offer or obtain a discount from the listed price when buying online.

I recognize dealers get discounted pricing for aggregating orders but generally speaking our LHS sell at retail for the online price. When the production run sells out and no stock is available online I rarely see discounted pricing for desirable models. 

Alyth Yard

Canada

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, May 3, 2021 9:37 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
There was a time when there was little or no discounting in this industry. Today, I don't have much respect for any companies MSRP, they are all playing a new game.

I am tired of that game. I am glad I do not have much more to buy in order to have my final layout.

If I were a newcomer to the hobby, making purchases would be especially frustrating for me.

I used to buy a new car for my wife every 2-3 years. The process of buying a new car became easier and easier as the sticker price became closer to the real price. In the 1980s and 1990s buying a car was misery. Now the process is easy and the customer is in control.

With these inflated MSRP values, I can only see a future where newcomers are being shocked, and experienced modelers are becoming frustrated.

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by wjstix on Monday, May 3, 2021 10:03 AM

JDawg
Bachmann 4-4-0's, and 4-6-0's and the 4-4-0s run around 300. The 4-6-0's are less, but they have no sound, so then you add the custom paint work, the price of a decoder, and your are back up there in price.

I think you need to shop around more, in the last year I've bought a Bachmann "sound value" steam engine (from TrainWorld) for around $100-125 as I recall.

Keep in mind, any steam engine you buy lettered for GN, with a very few exceptions, is a "foobie" - GN used Belpaire (squared off) fireboxes on most of their steam engines. All GN Pacifics had Belpaire fireboxes, as did their 2-8-0 and 4-6-0 engines.

However GN did own some USRA Mikados with rounded fireboxes, I have one of BLI's model of one of those engines. The Bachmann GN 4-4-0 is another one that didn't have the Belpaire firebox. Overall it's pretty close to the real GN 4-4-0 engines.

Stix
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Posted by snjroy on Monday, May 3, 2021 10:06 AM

"Manufacturer suggested price" is rarely what retailers offer, in most industries anyway.

As for the loco in question, I would say to the OP to go for it. There is a lot to be said about buying from a LHS at a reasonable price. 

Simon

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Posted by wjstix on Monday, May 3, 2021 3:25 PM

TrainWorld currently has Bachmann "SoundValue" 2-6-0s for $99.99. It's not that hard to remove the lettering with Solvaset and a rubber eraser (the Wabash one might be the easiest) and decal it for GN, if you really want a GN engine. I'm sure the BLI engine is a great engine, but do you really want to spend that much for an engine that is incorrect for GN? (Plus the 2-6-0 would look better on a small layout with 18"R curves.)

Stix
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Posted by BATMAN on Monday, May 3, 2021 3:51 PM

Lastspikemike
I've not seen any mechanism to offer or obtain a discount from the listed price when buying online.

It's called E-mail. I E-mail online vendors all the time and make an offer. They bite more often than you might think. 

I go with the retailer having a 40% margin on what he paid selling at retail. If it is something I want I take a mental note of how often the item shows up in the online ads I get and go from there. 

Brent

It's not the age honey, it's the mileage.

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Posted by dstarr on Monday, May 3, 2021 6:57 PM

A Pacific is a medium size steam locomotive.  I would not consider a Pacific too large for even a very small layout.  Your layout is smaller than 4 by 8, which makes it very small layout indeed.  Have you considered expanding it to 4 by 8?

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Posted by JDawg on Monday, May 3, 2021 7:00 PM

Well, this is my layout at my second residence, and it's a condo. I can't go any bigger. I think I'm going to get a BLI 2-8-0 instead. Bit smaller and I think it'll look nice on the layout.

JJF


Prototypically modeling the Great Northern in Minnesota with just a hint of freelancing. Smile, Wink & Grin

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, May 3, 2021 7:01 PM

Lastspikemike

The msrp is now the online price.

I've not seen any mechanism to offer or obtain a discount from the listed price when buying online.

I recognize dealers get discounted pricing for aggregating orders but generally speaking our LHS sell at retail for the online price. When the production run sells out and no stock is available online I rarely see discounted pricing for desirable models. 

 

I don't even understand what you are saying. Buying online from who?

You can go to Trainworld.com right now and EVERYTHING is less than MSRP. Same at ModelTrainStuff.com, by large percentages, 25% to 40% depending on brand.

Again, I have no idea what goes on in Canada in this regard, nor does it matter to me since I live in Maryland.

But even the retail shops around here do not sell and full MSRP.

I have virtually never bought a brand new item from an Ebay vendor, even if that vendor is also a brick and mortar store.

So I have no experiance there either. The only stuff I buy off Ebay is usually NOS stuff from personal collections. And as a percentage of all my model train purchases, Ebay is very small, less than 5% lifetime.

The shop I refered to in my post above has tons of new Bachmann products, all at 40% to 45% below MSRP - I was just there a few weeks ago.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Lastspikemike on Monday, May 3, 2021 9:22 PM

Buying online from the manufacturer. If you don't buy direct when the new product is advertized you won't get one.

Alyth Yard

Canada

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, May 3, 2021 9:34 PM

Lastspikemike

Buying online from the manufacturer. If you don't buy direct when the new product is advertized you won't get one.

 

Sure you will, I have preordered thru dealers and got stuff with no problem. Those dealers offered discounts.

The only manufacturer I have preordered directly from is Spring Mills Depot, who does not sell thru dealers........ so one price does fit all in that case.

I have Rapido stuff on preorder right now from a big mailorder dealer who happens to be moderately close to me, at prices below Rapidos MSRP.

Bachmann products, which I believe was part of what started this part of this conversation, do not require preorders and can be bought at deep discounts from lots of dealers of all sorts.

If a manufacturer is selling thru dealers, that's where I'm buying because the dealers will generally offer some sort of discount even if it is small.

Some manufacturers are direct only, and I expect we will see more of that. Then it truely is one price.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, May 3, 2021 9:38 PM

Here is an example of an Email I got today from a big online dealer:

 
New Product Announcements
 
Announced May 2021
 
HO & N Scale New Products
Athearn, Genesis, Roundhouse
Broadway Limited
MicroTrains
 
Be sure to place your orders before the manufacturers specified order dates.
 
 
Broadway Limited
HO Scale
Milwaukee S3 4-8-4
PRR I1sa 2-10-0
EMD SD40-2
 
Order By 5/26/2021
ETA July 2021
 
Broadway Limited
N Scale
EMD SD40-2
 
Orders by 5/26/21
ETA July 2021

 

They take preorders for all the major manufacturers at discount prices.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by BATMAN on Monday, May 3, 2021 9:48 PM

I got 17% off on each of my two Hudsons and have 18% off on the two Rapido ten-wheelers I have ordered. I made them a take it or leave it offer. They took it.

 

Brent

It's not the age honey, it's the mileage.

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Thursday, May 6, 2021 2:07 AM

mobilman44
-  A Pacific was normally used for passenger trains

There were exceptions, the NYC K-11, for example, was designed as a fast freight loco. When bumped by the L-1 and L-2 Mohawks, most went to secondary passenger service 

"Class K-11b, d, e, f (Locobase 13885) 

Data from NYC 8 1917 Locomotive Diagrams supplied in May 2005 by Allen Stanley from his extensive Rail Data Exchange. See also F Ray McKnight, "The Kaye-Elevens", Central Headlight (1982, Quarter 2), pp. 14-28. Works numbers were (K-11b) 50672-50681 in December 1911, 50682-50695 in January 1912, 50696-50701 in February; (K-11d) 51184-51203 in April 1912; (K-11e) 51760-51767 in August 1912, 51768-51789 in September; (K-11f) 54168-54172 in September 1913, and 54173-54196 in October.

Brooks may have produced the first ten new-build perfect-square Pacifics (cylinder diameter equal to the bore) as K-11a (Locobase 5578) and Baldwin may have added the next 30 as K-11c (Locobase 13884), but Schenectady produced the majority of this large class.

 

K-11s were essentially the same design as the K-3, but had shorter tubes, put less weight on the rails and had much smaller drivers. Central Headlight's McKnight found that the K-11s were a success in their initial service as Hudson Division perishable-freight expediters, but were soon replaced by L-2 4-8-2s in 1916. It was then that they went to the Adirondack Division and soon provided motive power for freight and passenger service between Utica, NY and Montreal.

 

Since much of the route traveled through the Adirondack Forest Preserve, where coal firing was prohibited, the West Albany shops soon became quite provision at converting K-11s from coal to oil burning for the summer months and back during the winter. McKnight noted that the K-11s' firemen "appreciated the oil burners because riding the seatbox working an oil valve beat swinging a #12 "Rededge" [shovel] to keep the old girl hot." Eventually, enough K-11s were available for AFP service that twenty K-11s retained their oil-burners year-round and often spent the winter in reserve.

 

A few were fitted with boosters and those engines had 25" x 26" cylinders using 200-psi steam for a 40,040-lb tractive effort assisted by an 11,000-lb booster at starting. It's not clear from the 1930 diagrams how many K-11s were boosted, but at that point only a few were so fitted.

 

McKnight saluted the K-11 in a compact description of a highly useful engine: "They stood up to hard service, steamed easily, rode well, and the engine crews liked them. They could pull like a Clydesdale and still run like a Morgan." McKnight continued: "For three and a half decades they ...[were] equal to any assignment within their limits whether it be a passenger run, moving freight tonnage, heavy suburban work, or even switching chores."

 

Fourteen K-11s were converted by Beech Grove shops, the principal difference being the installation of 72" drivers. These were then classed K-14s."

Looks like Bowser made a good choice with its K-11 kit

Also using Pacifics on fast freight, that I know of were the Lacawanna, RF&P, ACL and Seaboard - there may have been others. The RF&P was a one speed bridge route, so freights had to move at passenger speeds to avoid tieing up the railroad. The ACL & Seaboard had to expedite the Florida citrus crop. 

 

 

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Posted by snjroy on Thursday, May 6, 2021 9:44 AM

Yes, and I understand that Canadian Pacific did the same (class G3 g-h-j). There is a prototype for everything they say.

Simon

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