Yes, and I understand that Canadian Pacific did the same (class G3 g-h-j). There is a prototype for everything they say.
Simon
mobilman44- A Pacific was normally used for passenger trains
There were exceptions, the NYC K-11, for example, was designed as a fast freight loco. When bumped by the L-1 and L-2 Mohawks, most went to secondary passenger service
Data from NYC 8 1917 Locomotive Diagrams supplied in May 2005 by Allen Stanley from his extensive Rail Data Exchange. See also F Ray McKnight, "The Kaye-Elevens", Central Headlight (1982, Quarter 2), pp. 14-28. Works numbers were (K-11b) 50672-50681 in December 1911, 50682-50695 in January 1912, 50696-50701 in February; (K-11d) 51184-51203 in April 1912; (K-11e) 51760-51767 in August 1912, 51768-51789 in September; (K-11f) 54168-54172 in September 1913, and 54173-54196 in October.
Brooks may have produced the first ten new-build perfect-square Pacifics (cylinder diameter equal to the bore) as K-11a (Locobase 5578) and Baldwin may have added the next 30 as K-11c (Locobase 13884), but Schenectady produced the majority of this large class.
K-11s were essentially the same design as the K-3, but had shorter tubes, put less weight on the rails and had much smaller drivers. Central Headlight's McKnight found that the K-11s were a success in their initial service as Hudson Division perishable-freight expediters, but were soon replaced by L-2 4-8-2s in 1916. It was then that they went to the Adirondack Division and soon provided motive power for freight and passenger service between Utica, NY and Montreal.
Since much of the route traveled through the Adirondack Forest Preserve, where coal firing was prohibited, the West Albany shops soon became quite provision at converting K-11s from coal to oil burning for the summer months and back during the winter. McKnight noted that the K-11s' firemen "appreciated the oil burners because riding the seatbox working an oil valve beat swinging a #12 "Rededge" [shovel] to keep the old girl hot." Eventually, enough K-11s were available for AFP service that twenty K-11s retained their oil-burners year-round and often spent the winter in reserve.
A few were fitted with boosters and those engines had 25" x 26" cylinders using 200-psi steam for a 40,040-lb tractive effort assisted by an 11,000-lb booster at starting. It's not clear from the 1930 diagrams how many K-11s were boosted, but at that point only a few were so fitted.
McKnight saluted the K-11 in a compact description of a highly useful engine: "They stood up to hard service, steamed easily, rode well, and the engine crews liked them. They could pull like a Clydesdale and still run like a Morgan." McKnight continued: "For three and a half decades they ...[were] equal to any assignment within their limits whether it be a passenger run, moving freight tonnage, heavy suburban work, or even switching chores."
Fourteen K-11s were converted by Beech Grove shops, the principal difference being the installation of 72" drivers. These were then classed K-14s."
Looks like Bowser made a good choice with its K-11 kit
Also using Pacifics on fast freight, that I know of were the Lacawanna, RF&P, ACL and Seaboard - there may have been others. The RF&P was a one speed bridge route, so freights had to move at passenger speeds to avoid tieing up the railroad. The ACL & Seaboard had to expedite the Florida citrus crop.
I got 17% off on each of my two Hudsons and have 18% off on the two Rapido ten-wheelers I have ordered. I made them a take it or leave it offer. They took it.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Here is an example of an Email I got today from a big online dealer:
They take preorders for all the major manufacturers at discount prices.
Sheldon
Lastspikemike Buying online from the manufacturer. If you don't buy direct when the new product is advertized you won't get one.
Buying online from the manufacturer. If you don't buy direct when the new product is advertized you won't get one.
Sure you will, I have preordered thru dealers and got stuff with no problem. Those dealers offered discounts.
The only manufacturer I have preordered directly from is Spring Mills Depot, who does not sell thru dealers........ so one price does fit all in that case.
I have Rapido stuff on preorder right now from a big mailorder dealer who happens to be moderately close to me, at prices below Rapidos MSRP.
Bachmann products, which I believe was part of what started this part of this conversation, do not require preorders and can be bought at deep discounts from lots of dealers of all sorts.
If a manufacturer is selling thru dealers, that's where I'm buying because the dealers will generally offer some sort of discount even if it is small.
Some manufacturers are direct only, and I expect we will see more of that. Then it truely is one price.
Lastspikemike The msrp is now the online price. I've not seen any mechanism to offer or obtain a discount from the listed price when buying online. I recognize dealers get discounted pricing for aggregating orders but generally speaking our LHS sell at retail for the online price. When the production run sells out and no stock is available online I rarely see discounted pricing for desirable models.
The msrp is now the online price.
I've not seen any mechanism to offer or obtain a discount from the listed price when buying online.
I recognize dealers get discounted pricing for aggregating orders but generally speaking our LHS sell at retail for the online price. When the production run sells out and no stock is available online I rarely see discounted pricing for desirable models.
I don't even understand what you are saying. Buying online from who?
You can go to Trainworld.com right now and EVERYTHING is less than MSRP. Same at ModelTrainStuff.com, by large percentages, 25% to 40% depending on brand.
Again, I have no idea what goes on in Canada in this regard, nor does it matter to me since I live in Maryland.
But even the retail shops around here do not sell and full MSRP.
I have virtually never bought a brand new item from an Ebay vendor, even if that vendor is also a brick and mortar store.
So I have no experiance there either. The only stuff I buy off Ebay is usually NOS stuff from personal collections. And as a percentage of all my model train purchases, Ebay is very small, less than 5% lifetime.
The shop I refered to in my post above has tons of new Bachmann products, all at 40% to 45% below MSRP - I was just there a few weeks ago.
Well, this is my layout at my second residence, and it's a condo. I can't go any bigger. I think I'm going to get a BLI 2-8-0 instead. Bit smaller and I think it'll look nice on the layout.
JJF
Prototypically modeling the Great Northern in Minnesota with just a hint of freelancing.
Yesterday is History.
Tomorrow is a Mystery.
But today is a Gift, that is why it is called the Present.
A Pacific is a medium size steam locomotive. I would not consider a Pacific too large for even a very small layout. Your layout is smaller than 4 by 8, which makes it very small layout indeed. Have you considered expanding it to 4 by 8?
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
LastspikemikeI've not seen any mechanism to offer or obtain a discount from the listed price when buying online.
It's called E-mail. I E-mail online vendors all the time and make an offer. They bite more often than you might think.
I go with the retailer having a 40% margin on what he paid selling at retail. If it is something I want I take a mental note of how often the item shows up in the online ads I get and go from there.
TrainWorld currently has Bachmann "SoundValue" 2-6-0s for $99.99. It's not that hard to remove the lettering with Solvaset and a rubber eraser (the Wabash one might be the easiest) and decal it for GN, if you really want a GN engine. I'm sure the BLI engine is a great engine, but do you really want to spend that much for an engine that is incorrect for GN? (Plus the 2-6-0 would look better on a small layout with 18"R curves.)
"Manufacturer suggested price" is rarely what retailers offer, in most industries anyway.
As for the loco in question, I would say to the OP to go for it. There is a lot to be said about buying from a LHS at a reasonable price.
JDawgBachmann 4-4-0's, and 4-6-0's and the 4-4-0s run around 300. The 4-6-0's are less, but they have no sound, so then you add the custom paint work, the price of a decoder, and your are back up there in price.
I think you need to shop around more, in the last year I've bought a Bachmann "sound value" steam engine (from TrainWorld) for around $100-125 as I recall.
Keep in mind, any steam engine you buy lettered for GN, with a very few exceptions, is a "foobie" - GN used Belpaire (squared off) fireboxes on most of their steam engines. All GN Pacifics had Belpaire fireboxes, as did their 2-8-0 and 4-6-0 engines.
However GN did own some USRA Mikados with rounded fireboxes, I have one of BLI's model of one of those engines. The Bachmann GN 4-4-0 is another one that didn't have the Belpaire firebox. Overall it's pretty close to the real GN 4-4-0 engines.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThere was a time when there was little or no discounting in this industry. Today, I don't have much respect for any companies MSRP, they are all playing a new game.
I am tired of that game. I am glad I do not have much more to buy in order to have my final layout.
If I were a newcomer to the hobby, making purchases would be especially frustrating for me.
I used to buy a new car for my wife every 2-3 years. The process of buying a new car became easier and easier as the sticker price became closer to the real price. In the 1980s and 1990s buying a car was misery. Now the process is easy and the customer is in control.
With these inflated MSRP values, I can only see a future where newcomers are being shocked, and experienced modelers are becoming frustrated.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL I can't speak for prices in Canada, but Bachmann street prices here are typically 40% off msrp or more Bachmann prices remind me of automobile prices in the 1980s. Sticker prices were all very high, but no one really had an idea what the car should really sell for. It all became a big game. I hope Bachmann gets their prices more close to the real price a consumer should pay. I don't see how advertising crazy high prices is good for them. -Kevin
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I can't speak for prices in Canada, but Bachmann street prices here are typically 40% off msrp or more
Bachmann prices remind me of automobile prices in the 1980s. Sticker prices were all very high, but no one really had an idea what the car should really sell for. It all became a big game.
I hope Bachmann gets their prices more close to the real price a consumer should pay. I don't see how advertising crazy high prices is good for them.
I don't disagree, but I don't expect it to change.
And the reasons they do this are a very long discussion of the history of pricing in the industry.
Bottom line is, the real price of Bachmann is 40% off.
There was a time when there was little or no discounting in this industry. Today, I don't have much respect for any companies MSRP, they are all playing a new game.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI can't speak for prices in Canada, but Bachmann street prices here are typically 40% off msrp or more
Lastspikemike Recent DCC Bachmann steam locomotives have got very expensive to buy new. The Russian Decapod msrp is pushing $600.00. That's a small "big" locomotive that suits a small layout.
Recent DCC Bachmann steam locomotives have got very expensive to buy new. The Russian Decapod msrp is pushing $600.00.
That's a small "big" locomotive that suits a small layout.
I can't speak for prices in Canada, but Bachmann street prices here are typically 40% off msrp or more, and the Decapod is $579 US, and Trainworld has them for $330, 44% off.
So the question is, what price can you buy it for?, not what is the msrp.
Other brands like Broadway are typically only discounted about 30-35%, yet their msrp is about the same on similar locos.
Again, I can only speak for what I have access to.
We have a dealer in this region, about an hour from me, who always has Bachmann at the lowest prices, and who has a big inventory of it.
GMPULLMAN. The Erie classed its USRA Paacifics as class K5 with the copies it ordered post USRA as K5a. Interestingly, the cover girl of first RMC I ever bought (in the early Sixties) was a Max Gray modernized K5 (Hal Carstens was a big Erie fan) that the railroad had grossly updated with an Elesco FWH, Boxpok drivers, air compressors on the pilot deck behind shields and twelve wheel tender - its hard to see the USRA loco under all that
https://www.railarchive.net/randomsteam/erie2941.htm
I have a BS 4-4-0 that pulls five cars around the layout for hours on end when I am working on the layout. It may be just me but that little 4-4-0 makes the layout seem just that much larger as it is small and I usually set it at about 25mph.
John-NYBWt does seem big for the layout but most of us who run large steamers put them on trains for which they are over powered.
I am guilty!
I own a Bachmann 2-8-8-4, and the maximum train length in my staging yard will be about 12 freight cars.
John-NYBW It does seem big for the layout but most of us who run large steamers put them on trains for which they are over powered. The N scale guys can probably run prototypically correct trains but those of us in HO and larger put large steam on trains for which a Ten Wheeler or Consolidation would be more appropriate. So what? It's a hobby of compromises. If you're happy with a Pacific on a 5 car train, who's to argue. It's also feasible that a large steamer discarded by a Class 1 railroad might find a second life on a short line pulling much shorter trains than it was designed for.
It does seem big for the layout but most of us who run large steamers put them on trains for which they are over powered. The N scale guys can probably run prototypically correct trains but those of us in HO and larger put large steam on trains for which a Ten Wheeler or Consolidation would be more appropriate. So what? It's a hobby of compromises. If you're happy with a Pacific on a 5 car train, who's to argue. It's also feasible that a large steamer discarded by a Class 1 railroad might find a second life on a short line pulling much shorter trains than it was designed for.
Yes, even my 35-45 car trains are intended to "represent" the 60 to 75 car trains of my era and local.
Ok. No hard feelings. I was just trying to remember when I asked about 2-8-0's!
I shop for some stuff on eBay, and I was looking at a Bachmann 4-4-0's, and 4-6-0's and the 4-4-0s run around 300. The 4-6-0's are less, but they have no sound, so then you add the custom paint work, the price of a decoder, and your are back up there in price. That's my big predicament! Look's too big but the price is right, or it looks ok and the price is high, hard choice to make IMO. Thanks for the revision too Sheldon. I do value your input.
JDawg ATLANTIC CENTRAL mobilman44 For what its worth, and repeating much said in earlier posts: - A Pacific was normally used for passenger trains - Both Bachmann and BLI make great Consolidations (2-8-0) and they were the workhorses of many RRs for decades. IMO, one of these would work out just fine for your shorter trains and layout size. Yes, agreed. I almost assumed he was talking about a passenger train, no matter the length of passenger cars he might use. We have already had a long thread with him about using a Bachmann Consolidation...... I think I give up. Sheldon I'm sorry Sheldon, I really am, but finding a Bachmann consolidation in GN colors is hard, or rather I haven't had much luck. I happened to find this BLI loco (4-6-2) but was concerned with it's size. Plus, Bachmann locos are more expensive than the BLI, and often times they don't have dcc and sound, an added expense. I'm not trying to waste your time. But, here's the thing. There is one BLI 2-8-0 on eBay. It's 500$ This pacific is 250$. That is why I can't get the BLI 2-8-0, it too darn much. Bottom line, steam locos are a whole new animal for me, I have no experience with them, and I don't have money to burn, so I want to be sure I make a wise decision. I'm sorry that you feel exasperated with me.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL mobilman44 For what its worth, and repeating much said in earlier posts: - A Pacific was normally used for passenger trains - Both Bachmann and BLI make great Consolidations (2-8-0) and they were the workhorses of many RRs for decades. IMO, one of these would work out just fine for your shorter trains and layout size. Yes, agreed. I almost assumed he was talking about a passenger train, no matter the length of passenger cars he might use. We have already had a long thread with him about using a Bachmann Consolidation...... I think I give up. Sheldon
mobilman44 For what its worth, and repeating much said in earlier posts: - A Pacific was normally used for passenger trains - Both Bachmann and BLI make great Consolidations (2-8-0) and they were the workhorses of many RRs for decades. IMO, one of these would work out just fine for your shorter trains and layout size.
For what its worth, and repeating much said in earlier posts:
- A Pacific was normally used for passenger trains
- Both Bachmann and BLI make great Consolidations (2-8-0) and they were the workhorses of many RRs for decades. IMO, one of these would work out just fine for your shorter trains and layout size.
Yes, agreed. I almost assumed he was talking about a passenger train, no matter the length of passenger cars he might use.
We have already had a long thread with him about using a Bachmann Consolidation......
I think I give up.
I'm sorry Sheldon, I really am, but finding a Bachmann consolidation in GN colors is hard, or rather I haven't had much luck. I happened to find this BLI loco (4-6-2) but was concerned with it's size. Plus, Bachmann locos are more expensive than the BLI, and often times they don't have dcc and sound, an added expense. I'm not trying to waste your time. But, here's the thing. There is one BLI 2-8-0 on eBay. It's 500$ This pacific is 250$. That is why I can't get the BLI 2-8-0, it too darn much. Bottom line, steam locos are a whole new animal for me, I have no experience with them, and I don't have money to burn, so I want to be sure I make a wise decision. I'm sorry that you feel exasperated with me.
Please note I edited my post, while I have tried to offer you advice before, I did confuse you with a different poster asking similar questions to yours. My apploigies.
If you think Bachmann locos cost more than BLI you are shopping in the wrong places.
As for roadnames, yes not every roadname that Bachmann has made in 25 years is readily available. Preorders and limited production is the new normal....... so I am told.
Again, i want to thank everyone for their input, you all have been so helpful.
We recently had ths topic with another poster interested in a steam loco for a small layout. The Bachmann or BLI Consolidation was the number one choice.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Thanks for all the input and especialy the photos. I just want to reiterate that the 3' 4" by 6' is my Secondary layout at my second residence. I have a larger layout in MN, but it is set in 1963, after the fall of steam. I am choosing a slightly earlier era for my second layout so I can run steam locos. I don't have much room in my Fort Myers condo, I needed something that fit in my office, plus my desk, bookcases, ect. ect. Again, awesome replies. Thanks a bunch.
Hi there. Why this model in particular? Is it because your LHS has a good deal? If that's the case, I would go for it. But only if it's a good deal. I had a similar size layout and my 4-6-0s were my favourite locos. They just look nice on a small layout. What kind of equipment will you pulling? Pacifics did not pull much freight while 4-6-0s and 2-6-0s pulled both. You won't be able to run long passenger cars either. 60' cars and a ten wheeler look great...