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which brand dcc/sound locos do you buy?

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, May 3, 2021 5:25 AM

Lastspikemike

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL

OK, because I don't keep close tabs on all this stuff anymore, I was unaware that Athearn seems to have finally stopped producing many or all of the RTR locos that were based on the BlueBox locos.

I guess I can call my garden tractor "legacy", they have not been made since 2002, and were still based on a core design from 1971, and it will drag around backwards most of the competition, then and now.

As for Mike's comment about DC being "legacy", last new loco offerings I did look at, Rapido, Walthers, Athearn and others are still listing DC versions (called DCC ready)?

Sheldon

 

 

 

They call them DCC ready but they won't run on DC without a dummy plug to jumper the decoder connections. So, no, they aren't DC locomotives. They're DCC locomotives with the decoders removed. 

Around here we have Heritage buildings. They're just old buildings people are fond of so we keep using  them. People get upset when we knock them down. Some "Heritage" buildings are kept because it's just too expensive to knock them down. Some of those old buildings are "preserved" because we have no choice.

We use "legacy" to describe infrastructure that we'd like to replace or upgrade but can't afford to so we modify the new stuff to work with the old stuff. Same idea as fitting a dummy plug.

 

BUT, they come with the dummy plug, and out of the box they ONLY run on DC.

More importantly, if they were not designed for easy conversion to DCC, they would have the EXACT same circuitry for DC lighting that they have now, just without the strategic taps in the circuit that are jumped by the plug.

That pretty much makes them DC locomotives provided with some courtesy provisions for easy changeover to DCC.

DCC does not require those lighting circuits that are in those locomotives. In Fact, knowing what I know about DCC and electronics, I would remove the DC lighting circuits and direct wire the decoder if I was going to use DCC.

Sheldon 

    

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Posted by trnj on Monday, May 3, 2021 5:35 AM

My best running and longest lasting diesels are from Bowser.  One, a Baldwin VO1000 is decades old and runs as good as ever.  I have added Loksound decoders to all of my Bowsers.  It is easy to contact and deal with Bowser service dept. As well.  Second favorite is Atlas (Alco S-2 and HH600).  The HH came with a QSI decoder--not good.  Ii replaced it with a Loksound 5.0.  Great sound and excellent low speed range.  With Loksound a programmer is important to have if you want to fine tune the CV's for speed.  

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Posted by Doughless on Monday, May 3, 2021 6:09 AM

SeeYou190

My old employer had very strict rules where the term "legacy" was to be applied to a product in current production.

Earlier, if the cylinder head capscrew threads in the engine block were SAE sized, and not metric, it was a legacy engine platform.

This caused some concern among customers, because our 60 liter engines had 3/4" Fine Thread on the cylinder head capscrews, thus it was a legacy engine, and that would not fly.

The rules were changed and became so complicated that most of it seemed self-contradictory.

So, I just stopped using the word "legacy" when describing our products.

Oh... the new Walthers flyer came in the mail today... The NW2 is being offered DC and Undecorated. I am going to buy one. And, the Kato GP-38 DC Undecorated has a good sale price right now.

-Kevin

 

Yes.  Legacy is not a general PC thing.  Its more a corporate-speak term.  Designed to distinguish new product lines from "old" product lines that are still being sold side by side.  Its just a way to denote current technology from past technology.  Once the current technology is in place, the previous generation becomes Legacy, even though products are still being made with previous generation technology.

If Ford still sells its Vulcan based V6, originally engineered in the 1960s I believe, that would considered to be the Legacy motor relative to a 3.5 Litre twin turbo V6 that may have been designed from scratch in the 1990's (I don't know the history of Ford engines).

Athearn RTR BB based motor, tweeked with a better armature, would be similar to a Vulcan V6 that has modern heads and fuel delivery system.  Both are fine motors, but they are Legacy relative to the brand newly designed motors.

Yes, and the NW2 comes in undecorated and are available on most retail websites.  I was going to mention that here since I know there is a following of undecorated models.

I have 4 of the dcc/sound decorated versions and they are wonderful.  I highly recommend.

- Douglas

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Posted by Doughless on Monday, May 3, 2021 6:29 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

SeeYou190

My old employer had very strict rules where the term "legacy" was to be applied to a product in current production.

Earlier, if the cylinder head capscrew threads in the engine block were SAE sized, and not metric, it was a legacy engine platform.

This caused some concern among customers, because our 60 liter engines had 3/4" Fine Thread on the cylinder head capscrews, thus it was a legacy engine, and that would not fly.

The rules were changed and became so complicated that most of it seemed self-contradictory.

So, I just stopped using the word "legacy" when describing our products.

-Kevin

 

 

 

I see it as just another pointless euphemism to water down the facts and confuse definitions.

I have heard it used by Canadians regarding old/historic houses? As if it is a government sanctioned term?

The US architectural/historic preservation community does not use it. We are rather proud of the fact that our old houses are "old", and some are "historic".

We don't need a euphemism for it. The big blue house I just sold is now 120 years "old", and still doing very well, with its original slate roof and all.

My new spot is not "new", but not all that old yet at only 57.

Sheldon

 

 

I don't know what they do in Canada, but the technology of building houses hasn't really changed, so there is no Legacy to house building technology.  Once the industry flips to where there is a product line of new houses built with recycled foam designed to eventually replace stick built houses, houses that are then still being stick built would be the houses built with Legacy technology or processes.  When they will stop being built, maybe not ever, will depend upon how the market accepts the new technology.

It has nothing to do with age.

 OTOH, a garden tractor that has not been produced since 2002 is not Legacy.  Its just old.
 
It may be better than the new ones, but that's a different conversation.
 
You could say that driving a nail with air compression is modern, and driving a nail with a forearm is Legacy, and they still are making and selling a Legacy tool for driving nails with a forearm.
 
The term is just one of those corporate-speak kind of terms to put products and services into different categories, so to speak, mainly because Legacy is well established, cheaper to build, and can still be profitable.  Sorry I brought it up.

- Douglas

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, May 3, 2021 7:45 AM

Douglas and all, thanks for the explanations.

I understand the language evolves, sometimes not everyone gets the memo, or cares to read the memo.

In my whole life, except for 4 days working at Baltimore Air Coil, I have never worked in "corporate america".

Always worked for small businesses or been self employed in businesses with few or no employees.

These new terms "appear", almost out of thin air if you do not travel in certain circles.

The one that gets me most is the names of these cars, SUV, crossover, etc.

Most of them, especially my FLEX, are still just station wagons to me.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Doughless on Monday, May 3, 2021 9:39 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Douglas and all, thanks for the explanations.

I understand the language evolves, sometimes not everyone gets the memo, or cares to read the memo.

In my whole life, except for 4 days working at Baltimore Air Coil, I have never worked in "corporate america".

Always worked for small businesses or been self employed in businesses with few or no employees.

These new terms "appear", almost out of thin air if you do not travel in certain circles.

The one that gets me most is the names of these cars, SUV, crossover, etc.

Most of them, especially my FLEX, are still just station wagons to me.

Sheldon

 

Its all good for me, I knew where you were coming from.  Yes, there is a certain PC bent to a lot of corporate-speak these days.  But the words are trying to be precise, eventhough there are plenty of situations where these words that mean similar things overlap at times and can be used interchangeably.

If CSX said that they are painting locomotives in their "old" paint schemes instead of "heritage" paint schemes, it might give the impression they are going to use the gray.yellow.blue scheme or the older gray and blue scheme, instead of the paint schemes of the railroads that merged.

Over precision can be a pain sometimes.

- Douglas

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, May 3, 2021 9:50 AM

Doughless
The technology of building houses hasn't really changed, so there is no Legacy to house building technology.

I am amazed at how much better houses are built now than when mine was built. Not really new technology, but certainly better materials and better inspections.

I know my house down to the studs now, and in 1989 when it was built, all corners were cut, and everything was as minimal as possible.

As I watch all these new houses get built in my "trending" neighborhood, everything is built so much better.

I know my point of reference does not include the houses built on the early part of the 1900s, so that might be different.

Automobiles are also infinitely better now than the two horrible cars I bought in the 1980s.

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by Doughless on Monday, May 3, 2021 10:28 AM

SeeYou190

 

 
Doughless
The technology of building houses hasn't really changed, so there is no Legacy to house building technology.

 

I am amazed at how much better houses are built now than when mine was built. Not really new technology, but certainly better materials and better inspections.

I know my house down to the studs now, and in 1989 when it was built, all corners were cut, and everything was as minimal as possible.

As I watch all these new houses get built in my "trending" neighborhood, everything is built so much better.

I know my point of reference does not include the houses built on the early part of the 1900s, so that might be different.

Automobiles are also infinitely better now than the two horrible cars I bought in the 1980s.

-Kevin

 

There is a show on HGTV where the couple builds a new house within 100 days.  It takes place in FL so I'm interested.

They typically used concrete blocks.

One house they used sort of a thin plywood sheathed foam wafer of sorts.  In segments that attached together some how.  They said it was lighter, stronger, and higher rated for hurricanes.  Probably expensive too.

- Douglas

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, May 3, 2021 10:42 AM

SeeYou190

 

 
Doughless
The technology of building houses hasn't really changed, so there is no Legacy to house building technology.

 

I am amazed at how much better houses are built now than when mine was built. Not really new technology, but certainly better materials and better inspections.

I know my house down to the studs now, and in 1989 when it was built, all corners were cut, and everything was as minimal as possible.

As I watch all these new houses get built in my "trending" neighborhood, everything is built so much better.

I know my point of reference does not include the houses built on the early part of the 1900s, so that might be different.

Automobiles are also infinitely better now than the two horrible cars I bought in the 1980s.

-Kevin

 

Kevin, in every era there are well built houses and stuff built as cheap as possible. That is one of the many reasons I have never lived in a cookie cutter development. In addition to HOA's, neighbors too close,  houses like that are generally built to minimum standards.

I don't have time right now, but I could explain soooooo much.

But the early 70's was the last modest housing built with any craftsmanship.

Yes, the inspection authorities are now stepping up their game, most everywhere.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by n012944 on Monday, May 3, 2021 11:02 AM

ChrisVA

I'm curious what brands most people usually buy for either steam or diesel. It seems the most common brands I see are Broadway Limited and Bachmann. I have a couple of BLI's that I am happy with. Bachman, not so much - seems to be lower end/lower quality stuff.  

I found Stewarts to be very good runners, just have to convert them to DCC, which seems relatively easy. How about Rapido/Atlas/Intermountain? Other?  I'm looking for smooth slow speed, DCC/sound, holds up over time.

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

 

 

Rapido, Scale Trains and Genesis are the top of the line when it comes to HO scale. That is the majority of my roster.  I have a few Atlas Gold units, and they are very good, along some BLI stuff.  The detail on the BLI models lacks some railroad specific stuff, but no one else makes a Shark or a Centipede worth discussing.  

 

There has been reports of BLI's Paragon 3 decoder having issues, I have not had any, maybe I am just lucky.  BLI just came out with a Paragon 4 decoder, it will be on their new GP20s and SD40-2s.  Hopefully it gives people less issues than the 3 did.  The GP20s will also have railroad specific details included, so that is an improvement from BLI.

 

I agree with you on Bachman, mid level at best, even their "high end" stuff.  That seems to be an opinion that is apparently hard for some people to grasp.  When Stewart first came out with their F units in the 90's, they were amazing.  Compared to the blue box stuff that was common at the time, it truly was a huge leap forward.  While the detail level of those models are not on the same level as todays, that drive is still one of the best.  

An "expensive model collector"

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, May 3, 2021 9:24 PM

PRR8259

I am told by one manufacturer that full dcc locos are outselling "dcc ready" locos by at least a rate of 55% to 45%, with the dcc side generally increasing all the time.

 

50% more DCC/sound locos? Meaning sales are 60% DCC and sound to 40% DCC ready?

I would easily expect that at this point in the game.

That is actually in line with informal surveys regarding DCC use vs DC in both N and HO.

I full well expect manufacturers to do what makes the most sense in terms of their sales numbers. 

What Broadway will never know is how many sales they lost not offering DC locomotives.

Athearn, Walthers, even relatively new Rapido do not seem ready to give up on DC/DCC ready models. Maybe their research tells them they will loose sales if they do?

I would just like to see one thing - DCC, or DCC/sound models built to be easily backwards compatible - unplug the DCC and install a jumper plug.

Sheldon

 

    

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Posted by tloc52 on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 11:34 AM

I am a diesel only guy now, when I did steam it was Westside Models and dc only.

Now I only buy 4 axle Athearn Genesis until Scale Trains comes out with 4 axle locomotives or an accurate SD45 in Wisconsin Central. All locomotives are purchased dcc ready and I install the ESU sound decoders.

As for houses. I doubt the 70's were the last of quality homes built. What an elitist, inaccurate opinion. Define it as your opinion and it's better but still snobby. Our 1st home 1800 sq. ft. was a well built quality stick built home in 1980. Our 2nd home built in 2019 while costing 20 times more then the 1st home is craftsmanship that needs to be seen not written about. There is now and there was quality craftsmanship in every decade. As there was crap, basically like trains, in housing you get what you pay for.

Tom in Wisconsin

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Posted by Doughless on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 12:54 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

 
PRR8259

I am told by one manufacturer that full dcc locos are outselling "dcc ready" locos by at least a rate of 55% to 45%, with the dcc side generally increasing all the time.

 

 

 

50% more DCC/sound locos? Meaning sales are 60% DCC and sound to 40% DCC ready?

I would easily expect that at this point in the game.

That is actually in line with informal surveys regarding DCC use vs DC in both N and HO.

I full well expect manufacturers to do what makes the most sense in terms of their sales numbers. 

What Broadway will never know is how many sales they lost not offering DC locomotives.

Athearn, Walthers, even relatively new Rapido do not seem ready to give up on DC/DCC ready models. Maybe their research tells them they will loose sales if they do?

I would just like to see one thing - DCC, or DCC/sound models built to be easily backwards compatible - unplug the DCC and install a jumper plug.

Sheldon

 

 

The trend seems to be towards all locos having a 21 pin plug greenboard and speaker installed, with either a 21 pin DCC ready board plugged in or a 21 pin sound decoder.  I assume that all hardwired DCC/Sound decoders will slowly fade away from the OEM market.

I would hope that the DCC Ready plug allows the loco to perform normally on DC.  As you know, some of the LL P2K locos in the early days ran slow compared to others due to the configuration of the board and the lighting, and constantly changing the lightboards.

If everything is the same with the exception of the what gets plugged into the board, a decoder or not, I would think DC OEM locos would stick around for a very long time.

- Douglas

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Posted by n012944 on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 2:47 PM

tloc52

 

As for houses. I doubt the 70's were the last of quality homes built. 

 

When I first started looking at houses in NE Florida, it was 2 weeks after Hurricane Irma.  Driving around St Augustine, it was striking to see the older homes so damaged by the winds.  Going to the next town north, Ponte Vedra, had newer homes, mostly built after 2010.  The only homes there that I saw with significant damage was due to something else, like a tree, falling on them.  The newer houses were a better quality when it came to construction.  

 

I bought a house built in 2017, and I would challenge anyone to find the quality of it lacking.  It also came in a neighborhood that has an HOA, which I wanted to keep the riff raff in check.  It is also worth twice what I paid for it in 2018, so I think I made the right decision for my family.

 

 

An "expensive model collector"

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 2:48 PM

tloc52

I am a diesel only guy now, when I did steam it was Westside Models and dc only.

Now I only buy 4 axle Athearn Genesis until Scale Trains comes out with 4 axle locomotives or an accurate SD45 in Wisconsin Central. All locomotives are purchased dcc ready and I install the ESU sound decoders.

As for houses. I doubt the 70's were the last of quality homes built. What an elitist, inaccurate opinion. Define it as your opinion and it's better but still snobby. Our 1st home 1800 sq. ft. was a well built quality stick built home in 1980. Our 2nd home built in 2019 while costing 20 times more then the 1st home is craftsmanship that needs to be seen not written about. There is now and there was quality craftsmanship in every decade. As there was crap, basically like trains, in housing you get what you pay for.

Tom in Wisconsin

 

I said "modest housing" and there are always exceptions. I will happy to explain my opinion when I have more time.

Quality can be defined in a number of different ways, just as with model trains.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 6:00 PM

Construction "quality".

Today, and for the last 20-30 years, we build the structural part of the house better than we ever have in the history of light frame construction, no question. Almost to the point of over building.

We make them more resistant to severe weather, better insulated, etc., there is no question about that.

But many of the finishes we use today, interior and exterior, are cheap, and not designed to last more than 20-25 years at best.

Vinyl siding, Vinyl windows, light weight pressed masonite doors, thinner, lighter, composite material trim and moldings, flooring products that are "disposable" after 15 years, particle board cabinets, noisy cold stamped steel tubs, or fiberglass tubs, the list goes on.

Are there better products out there? sure, and lots of people choose to use them. But builders constructing entry level or first step up housing don't use them.

These houses guarantee that the home improvement business in such neighborhoods will be booming in 15 years when this stuff starts wearing out.

Now, as you go up in price, many consumers demand better, and many higher end homes are built with very nice finishes - but not always, or not universally in all catagories of products.

For those who don't know, I restore houses for a living. A few examples:

 

 

 

 

The top two pictures are from my own home, recently sold after restoring it 25 years ago, appearing on HGTV and winning several awards.

It still retains many of its original features, moldings, plaster walls, solid wood doors, original door locks, slate roof, but functions fully up to date with modern insulation, 5 zone heat, A/C, updated wiring and plumbing. It is mechanically only 20 years old.

Its appearance is similar to how it loooked in 1901 when new. 

There is no vinyl siding on the exterior, no split jamb door frames, MDF moldings, or partical board cabinets, etc.

The other property shown was a similar project for a client 5 years ago.

Today, my retirement house is a bit more manageable for my age, a brick rancher built in 1964 - and still, it has solid wood doors, plaster (not drywall) walls, quality wood trim, and so on.

So that is what I was refering to, not the structure, but the finishes you touch, and see, and come in contact with day to day. The good stuff lasts 70 years, or 120 plus years like the two house pictured above.....

Sheldon 

    

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Posted by Trainman440 on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 8:11 PM

I clicked on this "loco brand" thread expecting to see Sheldon promoting Bachmann products and instead Im greeted with pictures of houses.

 

I dont know why I expect threads to stay on topic anymore lol

Charles

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 8:30 PM

Trainman440

I clicked on this "loco brand" thread expecting to see Sheldon promoting Bachmann products and instead Im greeted with pictures of houses.

 

I dont know why I expect threads to stay on topic anymore lol

Charles

 

Converstations go where they go.

I already gave my standard answer about limiting your choices based on long ago reputations, and occasional duds.

Not one brand has a perfect track record. And not one brand is likely to make every loco you want.

So it makes more sense to judge each product on its own merits and take the best from all of them, depending on your likes, needs and modeling interests.

So, after 20 years of dramatic improvement, tomorrow Bachmann (or Athearn, if your are an Athearn hater) comes out with that one loco you really want for your roster.

All your friends buy them and are happy, you talk to a 100 guys on this forum and only one has a problem that Bachmann (or Athearn) takes care of.

You're not going to buy one because that GS4 you bought 35 years ago had the axles come out of the drivers and the pancake motor burned up? (Or, your Athearn Mikado, made for them by a company about to go out of business had a cracked gear they could not get parts for?)

Your loss.

The one that makes me laugh is when someone says they only buy KATO in HO. KATO has not made enough different HO locos anytime recently to even be on my buying radar, partly because I model 1954.

Yes, I have a lot of Bachmann steam, and I have passed on a lot of other Bachmann products. I have a lot of Proto2000, a fair amount of Intermountain, Genesis, some BLI, a few pieces of brass, and a list of others.

I don't have any MTH, ScaleTrains, Stewart/Bowser, my only Walthers offering is one set of their Proto F units.

And again, none of my locos have DCC......

Sheldon 

    

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Posted by tloc52 on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 8:42 PM

Sheldon, please forgive my stupidity. I missed your comment of "modest houses".

I am sorry

Tom

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 9:37 PM

tloc52

Sheldon, please forgive my stupidity. I missed your comment of "modest houses".

I am sorry

Tom

 

No worries.

 

    

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Posted by rrebell on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 11:03 PM

I like the Bachmann sound value, you can't beat the price. I only paid $60 for S4 at a B&M. Best runners are a pair of Atlas HH660. Stewart's can be hit or miss, have two, the VO1000 is noisey and the VO600 tends to derail at one place no other engine dose. Have a Proto S1 that runs sweet and 7 Proto steam, all run well. Have a MTH which dose not fit my era but came with my operating system, it dose run well but the automatic couplers are a bit of a joke.

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 10:57 AM

I've bought mostly DC locos over the years.  Very early on, I learned to wire in simple DCC decoders, and then I stepped up to sound decoders.  Sound didn't become common until I'd already started in DCC, but now I prefer to buy my engines with sound already installed.

I'm not fussy about manufacturers.  I don't typically repaint engines, so I only look for the lines I want.  I have subways and trolleys, too, so that limits my choices.  Lifelike made a couple of my geeps, and Walthers took over that line, as they did with my R17 subways.  Trolleys came from Bowser and Bachmann.  I still have old geeps and F-units from the 1950s, most of which I've converted to dummies or sound dummies.

I would never get an MTH engine with a DCS decoder, but other than that, I will look at anything.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by Trainman440 on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 11:15 AM

I got locos from all sorts of manufacturers. I dont limit myself to certain manufacturers, but rather buy from whoever makes the models I need.

I model the ATSF 1954 and PRR 1946, so whoever makes models that suit that era has my money. 

Unlike many PRR models, ATSF steam tends to be very uncommon in non-brass, with only BLI making the 4-8-4, 2-10-2, and finally the 2-8-2. Therefore, much of my ATSF fleet is brass, which require decoders, paint, springs, can motors and sometimes new gearboxes. These force me to work with my models, which I enjoy. And they end up looking nice enough:

Unlike others, I DO have some MTH locos (a USRA 2-8-2, two K4s, a GS-4, and an F7 Im about to part with). I bought them because they were cheaper than the competition, and suited my needs. The K4s were bought for around $150 each, which is $100 under BLIs. The 2-8-2 was had for $130, and F7 had for $120. The GS-4 Id argue is the better than its competition.

Having limited DCC functionality doesnt bother me. The look good enough, got amazing mechanisms, and sound great. Drawbar pull on the other hand is quite poor. 

These days, there really arent any manufacturers I would outright avoid for any reason besides high pricing. All make satisfactory models IMO. 

Cheers,

Charles

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Posted by selector on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 11:29 AM

Doughless

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

SeeYou190

My old employer had very strict rules where the term "legacy" was to be applied to a product in current production.

Earlier, if the cylinder head capscrew threads in the engine block were SAE sized, and not metric, it was a legacy engine platform.

This caused some concern among customers, because our 60 liter engines had 3/4" Fine Thread on the cylinder head capscrews, thus it was a legacy engine, and that would not fly.

The rules were changed and became so complicated that most of it seemed self-contradictory.

So, I just stopped using the word "legacy" when describing our products.

-Kevin

 

 

 

I see it as just another pointless euphemism to water down the facts and confuse definitions.

I have heard it used by Canadians regarding old/historic houses? As if it is a government sanctioned term?

The US architectural/historic preservation community does not use it. We are rather proud of the fact that our old houses are "old", and some are "historic".

We don't need a euphemism for it. The big blue house I just sold is now 120 years "old", and still doing very well, with its original slate roof and all.

My new spot is not "new", but not all that old yet at only 57.

Sheldon

 

 

 

 

I don't know what they do in Canada, but the technology of building houses hasn't really changed, so there is no Legacy to house building technology.  Once the industry flips to where there is a product line of new houses built with recycled foam designed to eventually replace stick built houses, houses that are then still being stick built would be the houses built with Legacy technology or processes.  When they will stop being built, maybe not ever, will depend upon how the market accepts the new technology.

It has nothing to do with age.

 OTOH, a garden tractor that has not been produced since 2002 is not Legacy.  Its just old.
 
It may be better than the new ones, but that's a different conversation.
 
You could say that driving a nail with air compression is modern, and driving a nail with a forearm is Legacy, and they still are making and selling a Legacy tool for driving nails with a forearm.
 
The term is just one of those corporate-speak kind of terms to put products and services into different categories, so to speak, mainly because Legacy is well established, cheaper to build, and can still be profitable.  Sorry I brought it up.
 

We don't use the term 'legacy' up here when referring to older items that have value and that most would agree are worth either preserving or duplicating.  We use the term 'heritage', as in a heritage house or property.  Otherwise, we use the term 'antique'.  Legacy is what remains of a person's opi, his/her works and deeds.  A legacy, at least a good one that dignifies our remembering, should be about all the good things we have done before passing on. 

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Vancouver Island, BC
  • 22,650 posts
Posted by selector on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 11:36 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

 
...

But the early 70's was the last modest housing built with any craftsmanship.

Yes, the inspection authorities are now stepping up their game, most everywhere.

Sheldon

 

I met a pocket and wrist watch restorer 20 years ago who opined that the last good movements were made in the late 60's. Since then, even the best movements have been a matter of compromise and the bottom line.

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 10,714 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 1:19 PM

selector

 

 
Doughless

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

SeeYou190

My old employer had very strict rules where the term "legacy" was to be applied to a product in current production.

Earlier, if the cylinder head capscrew threads in the engine block were SAE sized, and not metric, it was a legacy engine platform.

This caused some concern among customers, because our 60 liter engines had 3/4" Fine Thread on the cylinder head capscrews, thus it was a legacy engine, and that would not fly.

The rules were changed and became so complicated that most of it seemed self-contradictory.

So, I just stopped using the word "legacy" when describing our products.

-Kevin

 

 

 

I see it as just another pointless euphemism to water down the facts and confuse definitions.

I have heard it used by Canadians regarding old/historic houses? As if it is a government sanctioned term?

The US architectural/historic preservation community does not use it. We are rather proud of the fact that our old houses are "old", and some are "historic".

We don't need a euphemism for it. The big blue house I just sold is now 120 years "old", and still doing very well, with its original slate roof and all.

My new spot is not "new", but not all that old yet at only 57.

Sheldon

 

 

 

 

I don't know what they do in Canada, but the technology of building houses hasn't really changed, so there is no Legacy to house building technology.  Once the industry flips to where there is a product line of new houses built with recycled foam designed to eventually replace stick built houses, houses that are then still being stick built would be the houses built with Legacy technology or processes.  When they will stop being built, maybe not ever, will depend upon how the market accepts the new technology.

It has nothing to do with age.

 OTOH, a garden tractor that has not been produced since 2002 is not Legacy.  Its just old.
 
It may be better than the new ones, but that's a different conversation.
 
You could say that driving a nail with air compression is modern, and driving a nail with a forearm is Legacy, and they still are making and selling a Legacy tool for driving nails with a forearm.
 
The term is just one of those corporate-speak kind of terms to put products and services into different categories, so to speak, mainly because Legacy is well established, cheaper to build, and can still be profitable.  Sorry I brought it up.
 

 

 

We don't use the term 'legacy' up here when referring to older items that have value and that most would agree are worth either preserving or duplicating.  We use the term 'heritage', as in a heritage house or property.  Otherwise, we use the term 'antique'.  Legacy is what remains of a person's opi, his/her works and deeds.  A legacy, at least a good one that dignifies our remembering, should be about all the good things we have done before passing on. 

 

My mistake, I confused the two. We don't use that term "heritage" regarding old houses here either. "Historic" is the term of choice for old houses of social or architectural significance, even if they are not on a government register or list.

That definition you gave of legacy is what comes to my mind, that's why I failed to understand this new use regarding products.

Sheldon

    

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • 1,272 posts
Posted by PRR8259 on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 1:23 PM

Sheldon and all--

Sorry if my statements were confusing:

I was told 55% dcc and increasing, with 45% plain dc units, and decreasing.

On some items orders were so low that there are literally 52 units or so of each separate item number (dc or dcc, doesn't matter, that is the minimum order), but on the items where there were larger numbers of pre-orders, the split is about 55% fully featured dcc, all the time, and increasing.

I cannot speak for BLI; the manufacturer I was able to ask just has a different outlook, and presumably, different buyers.

As for BLI, they made a marketing decision; I guess it worked since they are still around, I just am being very cautious about ordering any more items from them since the last steam engine required $120 worth of repairs (or would have waited several months for repair at BLI in their queue).  I also was warned that if BLI did my repair, it could easily result in a second separate repair, so I opted to pay another repair service to fix everything that is wrong with the P3 engines right up front (to save time so that my son actually had a usable steam engine).  The upgraded engine is indeed excellent, but who really wants to spend $340 to have a steam engine fail and then turn around and spend $120 more to fix it so it is "right"?  (This is the same reason that LGB went bankrupt; their much more expensive large scale 2-8-2 was a miserable failure of design engineering and durability, requiring too many trips back to them for repair of failed gears).  I'm not implying the BLI might go bankrupt, so don't read that into this post.

And yes, I am fully fully aware that is much more than the average engine price that Sheldon shelled out for his steam power.

John

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 10,714 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 6:25 PM

John, so I was close in my understanding of what you said about percentages. And again it does match the informal info we have on how many people are using DCC vs DC.

Which is interesting because it suggests the DC crowd is still buying locos, and/or the DCC crowd is buying DCC ready to install their own decoders. Likely a mix of both.

I'm sure BLI is doing "OK", but watching their business model all these years they often seemed cash strapped. Maybe not?

But if other manufacturers are still selling even 35% or 40% DC locomotives, That would imply that BLI might have missed a 40% increase in volume?

John, understand this, I have some locos that I spent $250, $350 or a little more on. But I also have lots of locos, steam and diesel, that I only spent $100, or even only $60 to purchase them.

And most of my "trains" are pulled by 3 and 4 unit diesel lashups or two steam locos. Even at only $100 each, that's $300 or $400 at the front of a train, times 30 trains.

And many of them were purchased 20 years ago, or 15 years ago, or 10 years ago.

In fact, in the last 10 years I have only purchased about 10 locos, and I have nearly everything I want and need for the new layout.

Another point about the cost of my roster, out of 140 powered units, only 5 were purchased with DCC and sound, which has been removed.

About 15-20 were purchased with DCC, no sound, which has been removed.

The rest were DC (or DCC ready), so they had lower starting msrp pricing to begin with.

Sheldon

 

    

  • Member since
    June 2020
  • 2,233 posts
Posted by Lastspikemike on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 7:06 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

selector

 

 
Doughless

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

.... 

...I don't know what they do in Canada, but the technology of building houses hasn't really changed, so there is no Legacy to house building technology....

 

We don't use the term 'legacy' up here when referring to older items that have value and that most would agree are worth either preserving or duplicating.  We use the term 'heritage', as in a heritage house or property.  Otherwise, we use the term 'antique'.  Legacy is what remains of a person's opi, his/her works and deeds.  A legacy, at least a good one that dignifies our remembering, should be about all the good things we have done before passing on. 

 

 

 

My mistake, I confused the two. We don't use that term "heritage" regarding old houses here either. "Historic" is the term of choice for old houses of social or architectural significance, even if they are not on a government register or list.

That definition you gave of legacy is what comes to my mind, that's why I failed to understand this new use regarding products.

Sheldon

 

There's no doubt it is grammatically incorrect, or was, to use "legacy" as an adjective. It is a technical legal term actually (referring to a "bequest" of personalty, often just money but could include a brass locomotive, rather than a "devise" of real property). But language constantly evolves and English is a very flexible language, to the point of confusing inaccuracy. Compared  to Italian the English language is the poetical one.  Italian is crisp and precise, no surprise as descended from Latin. Italian is the precise language of engineering. English? Not so much.

It is only when "legacy" is used as an adjective that it acquired this relatively novel meaning. My suspicion is this usage derives from the computer industry.

A quick google reveals that Oxford dictionary thinks so. Many altered usages originate in the relatively non literate computer software world. My particular bugbear is destruction of the correct meaning of "icon" which those little useless and trivial pictures on screens demonstrably are not.

Alyth Yard

Canada

  • Member since
    August 2015
  • 283 posts
Posted by Autonerd on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 11:06 PM

When buying sound, I tend to consider the decoder. I prefer ESU, then Tsunami. I have inherited and bought some QSI-equipped locos and they are prima donnas -- difficult to reset and don't play nicely with the Sprog. Luckily I have spares now (thank you Ed!!!) and that helps. I inhereted a QSI-equipped BLI steamer and I find it needs to be reset once or twice a year. I bought a couple cheap MRCs and they were trash -- they just don't work. Avoid, avoid, avoid.

I have to speak out in favor of Bachmann Sound Value -- I have a couple and I love them. Biggest problem is they don't pull much. My 2-6-0 wobbles a bit but for $99 that's okay. Had an Alco FA-FB-FB-FA set (3x sound, one silent), they didn't always play well together but were a great set. (Sadly, they were in an A-line box stolen from my car.) Love my GG1 but can't do much with it.

Favorite sound loco is my Rivarossi U25C. ESU, robust build, great sound, heavy and HUGE pulling power. What a shame the prototype is so ugly.

I have some ESU-equipped Bowsers and they look great but the detail is a bit delicate. Several Athearn Genesis locos -- again very delicate but man, do they sweat the details to get 'em right. (Disclaimer: A friend works for Athearn.)

I have one Atlas loco (no sound) and it's a bit light but a real trooper. Blue-box Proto 2000 E units are also a favorite of mine. Thank goodness for them, they allow me to run realistic NYC trains (2 locos and 16+ cars) on our 2% grades!

Aaron

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