Paul3 Sheldon,In my defense, I've never called you "crazy". I've disagreed with you many, many times but I only challenge the point and not the person.I agree that my long cars look wrong on curves, but your cars look wrong all the time. For example, I have New Haven 12-1 sleepers with 12 sections and 1 drawing room in them; a short car won't. I'm modeling a prototypical railroad's equipment as accurately as I can; you're not. Of course we're going to butt heads! It's only natural, and that's okay. I don't think you're crazy, you're just modeling a different part of the hobby than I am. You have your opinions and I have mine.I have no issue at all at spending more on upgrades than a model is worth. Heck, I've put sound decoders in many an engine that isn't worth the cost of the decoder. Why not put $8 trucks under a $4 car? If we go back in the day and look at how much we would spend to modify, superdetail, paint, decal, and tune up old Athearn BB engines, it would easily cost more than the engine itself. Not to mention the labor!
Sheldon,In my defense, I've never called you "crazy". I've disagreed with you many, many times but I only challenge the point and not the person.I agree that my long cars look wrong on curves, but your cars look wrong all the time. For example, I have New Haven 12-1 sleepers with 12 sections and 1 drawing room in them; a short car won't. I'm modeling a prototypical railroad's equipment as accurately as I can; you're not. Of course we're going to butt heads! It's only natural, and that's okay. I don't think you're crazy, you're just modeling a different part of the hobby than I am. You have your opinions and I have mine.I have no issue at all at spending more on upgrades than a model is worth. Heck, I've put sound decoders in many an engine that isn't worth the cost of the decoder. Why not put $8 trucks under a $4 car? If we go back in the day and look at how much we would spend to modify, superdetail, paint, decal, and tune up old Athearn BB engines, it would easily cost more than the engine itself. Not to mention the labor!
Of course you know I used the example of you and me because I knew you would take it in good fun as we both understand each others views even when we disagree.
In my 170 passenger car fleet, I do have five "correct" B&O Pullman cars, and even they work fine with my close coupled diaphragm setup, but they do look less "graceful" than the rest of the fleet.
And agreed, some of my stuff is VERY accurate, but with a lot of stuff, close enough is good enough.
Yes, a different part of the hobby, where the big picture is more important than the up close.
Sheldon
For starters, making rails out of anything but metal would be a really bad idea. Layouts can last decades; my club's previous layout ran for 45 continuous years. How long would plastic rails last? And if plastic wheels pick up gunk, plastic rails will, too. How do you clean them without wearing them down? And how many of us have put things on the layout that would destroy plastic rails? And for what reason to not use metal rails? Real rails are shiny, and so are our model rails. At least today, modern track isn't brass-colored.
And FWIW, don't forget that in real-life(tm), overhead catenary that has just one wire grounds through the rails. So on certain railroads rails are part of a power circuit, not just a signaling circuit.DrW,The HO P1K DL-109 isn't that ancient. It's 21st Century. It came out in 2003. And it was produced during the "limited run" or "pre-order" era. The difference is that Life-Like took pre-orders and then made a higher percentage above that number. When the last of those didn't sell, they'd dump them at very low prices to big dealers, which is why one could buy them from the bargain bin for less than half the MSRP at times. Today, manufactuerers make a much smaller percentage above pre-orders, basically to just cover warranty work.Heh. I know all about the HO Ingalls 4S. A buddy of mine asked me to find him something unique at the Springfield Show. I showed him the brass 4S because nothing is more unique than that, and he bought it. He liked it so much, he called the brass importer and bought another one in a different paint scheme. Then he had me install DCC decoders in them. They do turn some heads during our train shows.n012944,All too true. About 10 years ago, I searched this forum far and wide and came up with dozens of slams against "evil" rivet counters (yes, someone literally used the word "evil" and he wasn't joking). I challenged anyone to find examples of rivet counters picking on more casual modelers but no one ever posted any. At worst, they would bring up anecdotes they heard second-hand, or from a personal interaction that couldn't be proven, but they couldn't (or wouldn't) find examples in print here showing the same level of contempt by rivet counters that are instead routinely shown against rivet counters.SeeYou190,Thanks for proving the point! "...not the right place for annoying self-appointed-know-it-alls." Hint: calling people "annoying" is an insult. Calling someone a "know-it-all" is also insulting. Saying that those who are "obsessed with detail" are not welcome here isn't very good, either.richhotrain,Every forum is intimidating to new people. I've been online for 25 years, I've belonged to more online forums than I can count, and I still get intimidated when I join a forum. That's why I always lurk for a while to get a feel of a place before posting. It's no different from joining a club or any social group. You're anxious, you want to fit in, you don't want to be a failure, etc. I mean, unless one is some kind of super-confident sort that totally doesn't care what others think of them, but those kinds of brash folks tend to flame out rather spectacularly on hobby forums.Sheldon,In my defense, I've never called you "crazy". I've disagreed with you many, many times but I only challenge the point and not the person.I agree that my long cars look wrong on curves, but your cars look wrong all the time. For example, I have New Haven 12-1 sleepers with 12 sections and 1 drawing room in them; a short car won't. I'm modeling a prototypical railroad's equipment as accurately as I can; you're not. Of course we're going to butt heads! It's only natural, and that's okay. I don't think you're crazy, you're just modeling a different part of the hobby than I am. You have your opinions and I have mine.I have no issue at all at spending more on upgrades than a model is worth. Heck, I've put sound decoders in many an engine that isn't worth the cost of the decoder. Why not put $8 trucks under a $4 car? If we go back in the day and look at how much we would spend to modify, superdetail, paint, decal, and tune up old Athearn BB engines, it would easily cost more than the engine itself. Not to mention the labor!
richhotrainI am a bit confused by this last string of replies.
richhotrainIs there or isn't there an obsession to detail on this forum? And, is that good or bad?
richhotrainAnd, have those obsessed with detail been insulted by some on this forum?
richhotrainIs this forum "the kiddies forum" that tolerates all sorts of weird members?
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Selector, thank you for the kind words.
And yes, you clearly understand the curve/car length issue.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL ... Paul3 thinks I'm crazy because I find selectively compressed passenger cars acceptable even though I have curves 36" R and above. Lots of people likely think I'm crazy because I put $8 trucks on $4 box cars, and because those freelanced passenger cars must have working diaphragms. But it is all good, and this is a great bunch of guys. Sheldon
...
Paul3 thinks I'm crazy because I find selectively compressed passenger cars acceptable even though I have curves 36" R and above.
Lots of people likely think I'm crazy because I put $8 trucks on $4 box cars, and because those freelanced passenger cars must have working diaphragms.
But it is all good, and this is a great bunch of guys.
I can't imagine anyone being serious if they ever call you crazy, Sheldon. Maybe irritating...but not crazy. And the irritation comes from your knowing what you like, what you need, and that you share your views so openly.
I do understand the set-up with cars and wide curves. If a string of heavyweights looks better on a 60" curve than a string of them would on 36" curves such as yours, then a shorter car should look that much better, but operate so much better when fixed with diaphragms and body-mounted couplers. Same for the trucks; you find they run so much better, whatever shell they're supporting.
I don't know that it needs to be said, but this forum would be greatly diminished without your constant attention and willingness to debate, or to offer guidance and opinions.
Oh yes the touchy "rivet counter" issue....... yes that door swings both ways.
I have been criticized a little on here by a few because I have that level of knowledge but don't follow it in my modeling....
I have probably offended both groups without meaning to at one time or another.
Largely because I don't start every statement with "In my humble opinion.....".
And because I have opinions....
But this is largely the friendly, helpful, do your thing, it's ok to not be too serious forum.
And I know that my own mix of "must haves" and "not important" is unique, to say the least.
I think it is easy for anyone to assume others have similar goals, interests or standards. Until you get to know another persons modeling style, it can be hard to know if you are saying something "offensive" wthout meaning to.
richhotrainIs there or isn't there an obsession to detail on this forum?
No.
richhotrainAnd, is that good or bad?
Good.
Not that I remember.
I would be reluctant to call it a "Kiddie Forum", but yes.
richhotrainHere is the post that seems to have started this bit of controversy.
No surprise there.
richhotrainIs this forum unnecessarily intimidating to any newcomer?
No, we go out of our way to be a welcoming bunch of fellows.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
n012944 Paul3 Lastspikemike, Seriously? "...(E)xcessive obsession with detail and accuracy..."? This forum is all rainbows and unicorns compared to other model railroad forums I've seen. This has to be one of the least obsessed with detail and accuracy model railroad hobbby forums on the internet. I've got to agree with Paul on this one, on another forum, I saw that this one was basically refered to as "the kiddies forum" who tolerated allsorts of weird members. Cheers, the happily weird Bear. I agree. There is very little obsession to detail on this forum. Those of us who are "obsessed" have been insulted by some on this forum.
Paul3 Lastspikemike, Seriously? "...(E)xcessive obsession with detail and accuracy..."? This forum is all rainbows and unicorns compared to other model railroad forums I've seen. This has to be one of the least obsessed with detail and accuracy model railroad hobbby forums on the internet. I've got to agree with Paul on this one, on another forum, I saw that this one was basically refered to as "the kiddies forum" who tolerated allsorts of weird members. Cheers, the happily weird Bear.
Paul3 Lastspikemike, Seriously? "...(E)xcessive obsession with detail and accuracy..."? This forum is all rainbows and unicorns compared to other model railroad forums I've seen. This has to be one of the least obsessed with detail and accuracy model railroad hobbby forums on the internet.
I've got to agree with Paul on this one, on another forum, I saw that this one was basically refered to as "the kiddies forum" who tolerated allsorts of weird members.
Cheers, the happily weird Bear.
I agree. There is very little obsession to detail on this forum. Those of us who are "obsessed" have been insulted by some on this forum.
Is there or isn't there an obsession to detail on this forum?
And, is that good or bad?
And, have those obsessed with detail been insulted by some on this forum?
Is this forum "the kiddies forum" that tolerates all sorts of weird members?
Here is the post that seems to have started this bit of controversy.
Lastspikemike What would benefit this hobby is a forum where excessive obsession with detail and accuracy was less prominent. Just my opinion but, objectively, this forum is unnecessarily intimidating to any newcomer. Seriously folks, an attitude adjustment is long overdue here
What would benefit this hobby is a forum where excessive obsession with detail and accuracy was less prominent. Just my opinion but, objectively, this forum is unnecessarily intimidating to any newcomer. Seriously folks, an attitude adjustment is long overdue here
As far as an attitude adjustment being long overdue here, that appears to be nothing more than an afterthought thrown in by the OP at the end of a longer comment about the current state of model railroading.
Rich
Alton Junction
n012944There is very little obsession to detail on this forum. Those of us who are "obsessed" have been insulted by some on this forum.
I am saddened to hear that you have been insulted for trying to model accurately and with detail.
I do recall a few discussions where strong oppinions have been aimed towards people that have brass collections, but I have a brass collection and I am not a detail or prototype fanatic, I just love my brass locomotive fleet.
This forum is definitely the right place for model railroaders that are having fun, and not the right place for annoying self-appointed-know-it-alls.
These forums also used to be the right place to come for accurate answers, but with the absence of Byron and the passing of Randy, we might be getting a massive opening in our expertise resources.
The general atmosphere here, amazingly with minimal moderator intervention, is amazingly friendly and welcoming. For me, these are the best forums.
An "expensive model collector"
IRONROOSTERKaDee needs to make an S scale whisker coupler.
Paul, Sorry if we have discussed this before.
I thought the "big head" HO scale Kadee coupler was close to correct for S scale. I honestly think I remember reading about how S scalers reshaped the uncoupling rod and used these on their models.
Yeah, S scale is cool. Reminds me of the fate of Sony's beta system. Good things don't always win!
Model Railroading needs another major S scale manufacturer. MTH did only a mediocre job with the S Helper's Line. That tooling has now passed on to ScaleTrains and I expect we'll see even less.
The addition of some sectional track to Fox Valley Models S scale flex track and some more turnouts in addition to the #5's would be nice.
KaDee needs to make an S scale whisker coupler.
Bachmann needs to bring back the retired Plasticville items for O/S scale and add to the line.
Paul
The hobby needs quality, plug and play HO trainset for 8-10 year olds. If you do not have some interest by this age most never will. It is really hard in this day and age to compete with computer generated video. Everytime my grandkids come over they want to go down to my shop to see, run, and hear the trains. They are age 5 and 3. I make it easy for them. The five year old knows how to use the Digitrax controller and how to switch back and forth between locomotives. Just give the folks the opportunity to operate a quality system and you will make a few converts.
Paul3 No one has said pre-orders are a magic bullet. Clearly some things are going to be uneconomical to make (Ingalls 4S anyone?), but at least there's a chance for borderline products. DL-109's, FL9's, and C-430's never saw the light of day outside of brass before pre-orders. But with pre-orders, each of those types have had multiple profitable runs made over the years.
No one has said pre-orders are a magic bullet. Clearly some things are going to be uneconomical to make (Ingalls 4S anyone?), but at least there's a chance for borderline products. DL-109's, FL9's, and C-430's never saw the light of day outside of brass before pre-orders. But with pre-orders, each of those types have had multiple profitable runs made over the years.
Generally, I completely agree with your assessment. Two comments: First, the P1K model of the DL-109 is ancient; it was even sold in Germany in a 3-rail AC version under the BRAWA brand (compatible with the Maerklin system). It was clearly produced before the pre-order era.
Second, the story of the Ingalls 4S has an interesting twist. A company named Ampolex imported brass models of several versions of the single 4S ever produced. They are beautiful models, made by Ajin...
The twist? The Ingalls 4S was the only brass engine Ampolex ever imported. Perhaps we should call it the "Ingalls karma".
Lastspikemike richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL azrail A standardized train control system free of wires and metal rails, improved battery technology for model trains. Make it easy as run a train as using a smartphone. Standardized in only choice available, everybody has to use it? No thanks. Why free of metal rails? Isn't that what prototype trains run on? Rich The reference will be to the desirability of dead rail. Prototype rails aren't nickel silver... If the rails don't have to conduct power then they could be made of plastic made to look like steel rails. Imagine never having to paint or clean rails ever again.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL azrail A standardized train control system free of wires and metal rails, improved battery technology for model trains. Make it easy as run a train as using a smartphone. Standardized in only choice available, everybody has to use it? No thanks. Why free of metal rails? Isn't that what prototype trains run on? Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL azrail A standardized train control system free of wires and metal rails, improved battery technology for model trains. Make it easy as run a train as using a smartphone. Standardized in only choice available, everybody has to use it? No thanks.
azrail A standardized train control system free of wires and metal rails, improved battery technology for model trains. Make it easy as run a train as using a smartphone.
A standardized train control system free of wires and metal rails, improved battery technology for model trains. Make it easy as run a train as using a smartphone.
Standardized in only choice available, everybody has to use it?
No thanks.
Why free of metal rails? Isn't that what prototype trains run on?
The reference will be to the desirability of dead rail. Prototype rails aren't nickel silver...
If the rails don't have to conduct power then they could be made of plastic made to look like steel rails. Imagine never having to paint or clean rails ever again.
But the real train rails conduct power, that's how detection works for signal systems.
What does this hobby need? A total revamp of the NMRA from top to bottom, taking into account that it's not 1967 any more. I don't think standards that exist should change, but the whole organization and its outlook needs to change, especially the "Achievement Awards."
Why should I "add grab irons and brake gear" to a car when it already comes with that right out of the box? Unless I want to scrounge old kits from the 80s. The entire AP is obsolete.
And as a dyed in the wool operator, the requirements for "Chief Dispatcher" are so rudimentary they're insulting. I've qualified ten times over, but I don't bother submitting the paperwork because it's valueless.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
John-NYBW If that's the way companies want to do business, that's their decision to make but they won't get my business that way. I'm done with preorders and as far as I'm considered, any product that is announced as coming soon is like a unicorn. It doesn't exist. I have no interest in somebody's pipe dream. If I can't buy it at my LHS or order it from Amazon, there's no reason to become interested in it. I'm a believer in the old school way of doing business. If you build it, they will come.
If that's the way companies want to do business, that's their decision to make but they won't get my business that way. I'm done with preorders and as far as I'm considered, any product that is announced as coming soon is like a unicorn. It doesn't exist. I have no interest in somebody's pipe dream. If I can't buy it at my LHS or order it from Amazon, there's no reason to become interested in it. I'm a believer in the old school way of doing business. If you build it, they will come.
While railroads were ever-present in a dying way, when I was a kid, I'm not sure how much of a role that played. I grew up in Butler, PA and still remember when the now-gone big gray building in town said PULLMAN STANDARD on the front. My dad was the son of a railroad man and had been an N scaler himself, before he had kids and we ate all the money.
I don't have any real recollection as to what compelled me to ask for a train set one Christmas, but that happened and my dad was savvy enough to know how to go all-in. Aside from a high school to late 20s lull, it never went away. My dad never got back into the hobby, which he has expressed some regret about.
It just happened so long ago and so mysteriously that I couldn't tell you exactly how I got into it.
For those who don't remember Furlow, here is a blog post that will at least get you up to speed on that part of history:
http://darkheritage.blogspot.com/2019/07/a-final-post-on-model-railroading.html?m=1
Malcom Furlow - there is a blast from the past. I remember seeing his sagging freight cars in the 1970's and early 1980's.
I really didn't see a lot of trains in my younger years, being an Air Force brat always moving around. I got into trains as a small tyke with wind-up, battery powered and childs guidance push trains, and at age four received a Lionel Train set on a 4x6 board with a Hudson steam engine (which I still have to this day but worse for the wear).
I really didn't start watching real trains until my dad was stationed at Travis Air Force Base in northern California and we boarded a horse just outside the base. The Southern Pacific mainline ran right by that ranch on the way up to Davis and Sacratomato. From there we moved to Davis and the SP mainline ran through down and the west valley line split off of a Y there at the Davis depot and ran north past my housing development and the Hunt Wesson tomato factory all the way to Oregon. The Coast Starlight passenger train ran on that route until about 1981.
Due these years, the SP has always been near and dear to me, but trips to Colorado, including several in the early 80's sparked my interest in the D&RGW, which has incredible mountain and desert scenery.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I basically grew up on the campus of The University Of Florida in Gainesville.
I rarely saw real trains as a kid. I loved model trains.
NittanyLion I've always been tickled by this notion that exposure to real trains is important. Especially when you consider that there's actually more passenger trains now than there were 50 (yes fifty) years ago.
I've always been tickled by this notion that exposure to real trains is important. Especially when you consider that there's actually more passenger trains now than there were 50 (yes fifty) years ago.
Agreed, I grew up in the very rural suburbs south of Baltimore. I did not see real trains on a daily or even weekly basis. We never traveled by train. The once a week run of the Baltimore and Annapolis short line ended when I was still young, 9 or 10? And to even see that we had to be "in town" (Severna Park or some other spot along the line) when it happened along.
Sure, we made trips to the city, every once in a while, and then there were trains to see. Baltimore was a major rail hub for the B&O and the PRR, now CSX, AMTRAK and NS.
But what got me into trains was the extensive (5' x 18') HO Christmas layout my father set up every year, that stayed up from Thanksgiving to mid January. And trips to the B&O museum, and Strasburg, and to Christmas layouts set up all over Baltimore at local fire Stations.
Then at age 10 we had a basement, and my father set the layout up, much more elaborately with plaster mountains, elevated track, hidden staging yards and more.
And then he groomed me to become its new owner. Maybe he understood the value of the hobby as a learning tool. Maybe he understood me and knew it would be good for me.
But there I was, 10/11 years old, the owner of a functioning 90 sq ft model railroad, built with all the common "modeler" products of the day.
By age 13 I was building craftsman kits, working in the local hobby shop, by age 15 doing all the repairs there, and was a member in the Severna Park Model Railroad Club (which has been featured in MR multiple times and still going strong).
By age 20 I was managing the train department in a different hobby shop.
Sure, as I got older I did some train watching, but to this day I'm not really a railfan in that sense, and only have marginal interest in present day railroading.
I'm a history guy, so I'm a history modeler. Why do you think I model a time before I was even born?
Of course when I first picked that era is was only about 25 years in the past, now it is 67 years in the past as I am about to be 64.
And I guess this is why I have been to Strasburg so many times, it is close (has been my whole life) and it is a history time capsule for railroading.
dstarrThings we could do that might help. Have the hobby magazines run some stories about layouts built by new comers. On those lovely big layout stories about layouts built by longtime model railroaders, write some words about how the benchwork got built, where the prototype information was found.
I would love to see the hobby magazines stop being so darned serious and start having some fun again.
I know a lot of people did not care for Malcolm Furlow, but he was always looking like he was having fun, and his stories that accompanied that layouts were fun.
More of that will attract new and younger people.
Maybe.
I didn't become interested in MRing because of real trains. I became interested because of seeing model trains in action. First at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago when I was 6, then pictures of layouts in MR and RMC as a boy that I begged my mother to buy each month.
I grew up 5 miles from what was the busiest freight railroad grade crossing (BN and UP) in the USA at the time, and never knew it. Real trains were interesting, but I never really cared about them much. I skipped the prototype and went stright to the models.
I started caring about real trains when my pursuit of some degree of accuracy of the models became a factor, but I still don't derive my attraction to a model because of how accurate it is. I don't know anything about real railroad car manufacturers or steam locomotive makers. I'm interested in the models as stand alone things.
As an example: To this day, after 40 years in the hobby, I know that Atlas makes a nice model of a 4650 3 bay covered hopper, but I have no idea what real manufacturer made that railroad car. FMC? What's an FMC?
- Douglas
The hobby needs more model railroaders. All the visitors to train shows are retirement age guys. I know a modular club that has shut down because too many members died, and the survivors health was so bad that that could not sclepp the modular layout in from the trailer, let alone set it up.
It's harder to attract new model rails than it used to be. Used to be real trains ran every where and we rode them, to work, to school, to Grandmother's , to Florida, wherever. That's gone. Many of us got into the hobby from Lionel 0-27 layouts. That's gone too.
Things we could do that might help. Have the hobby magazines run some stories about layouts built by new comers. On those lovely big layout stories about layouts built by longtime model railroaders, write some words about how the benchwork got built, where the prototype information was found. Point out that DCC isn't needed on small one person layouts. Have the occasional article on the use of Big Box rattle can paints. Find some manufacturer to make a line of toy trains for kids. Welcome newcomers to the hobby and never criticize their layouts or their modeling. With the slow death of hobby shops, be sure to point out train shows to everyone. Hope the Corona virus gets vanquished by vaccines so we can have train shows again.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Maybe, Maybe not, but it was before all the manufacturing was contracted out to someone in another country. I'm not complaining, just pointing out the obvious. When companies did their own maufacturing they had a better idea of when things would really be ready to sell. The current situation is what it is, I don't see any of it changing. Not the preorders, not the advance hype sometimes years in advance, not the unpredictable nature of the supply. No body wants to hold any inventory anymore, all the experts tell me they can't afford to do that. So, if I can get my hands on what I want, I buy it. Otherwise I already have 1,000 freight cars, 170 passenger cars, 145 locomotives, and oodles of all the other pieces and bits to build a model railroad. Sheldon
Maybe, Maybe not, but it was before all the manufacturing was contracted out to someone in another country.
I'm not complaining, just pointing out the obvious. When companies did their own maufacturing they had a better idea of when things would really be ready to sell.
The current situation is what it is, I don't see any of it changing. Not the preorders, not the advance hype sometimes years in advance, not the unpredictable nature of the supply.
No body wants to hold any inventory anymore, all the experts tell me they can't afford to do that. So, if I can get my hands on what I want, I buy it.
Otherwise I already have 1,000 freight cars, 170 passenger cars, 145 locomotives, and oodles of all the other pieces and bits to build a model railroad.
CGW103 I don't want battery power, nor would I ever use a smart phone.
I don't want battery power, nor would I ever use a smart phone.