ATLANTIC CENTRAL As I read the last 10 or so posts in this thread, I feel like I live in an alternate model train universe. Speed matching, or lack there of with identical locos? I run DC, and all 12 of my 20 plus year old Proto 2000 GP7's run close enough to the same speed to simply pick 3 or 4, couple them together, and pull a train. Same is true for most of my fleet. Agreed, features and quality are two different things. I have been making that point on here for decades to largely deaf ears. Factory major defects with new locomotives, my experience, less than 5% in 50 years and 140 locomotives. All this makes me happy to not be buying much motive power these days, to not be using DCC/sound, to not be in N scale, and to not be hung up on this brand or that brand being "better" or "worse". Admittedly my disclaimer is this, I don't buy a wide variety of models because of my disciplined devotion to my era and theme. There are many good brands who simply have not offered enough in my era to even get noticed by me, namely Atlas and KATO. In other brands I only have those models that fit my theme, example, my only GENESIS models are EMD F units. I can offer no opinion on other GENESIS locos. I wish OP all the best in getting his loco working. Sheldon
As I read the last 10 or so posts in this thread, I feel like I live in an alternate model train universe.
Speed matching, or lack there of with identical locos? I run DC, and all 12 of my 20 plus year old Proto 2000 GP7's run close enough to the same speed to simply pick 3 or 4, couple them together, and pull a train.
Same is true for most of my fleet.
Agreed, features and quality are two different things. I have been making that point on here for decades to largely deaf ears.
Factory major defects with new locomotives, my experience, less than 5% in 50 years and 140 locomotives.
All this makes me happy to not be buying much motive power these days, to not be using DCC/sound, to not be in N scale, and to not be hung up on this brand or that brand being "better" or "worse".
Admittedly my disclaimer is this, I don't buy a wide variety of models because of my disciplined devotion to my era and theme. There are many good brands who simply have not offered enough in my era to even get noticed by me, namely Atlas and KATO.
In other brands I only have those models that fit my theme, example, my only GENESIS models are EMD F units. I can offer no opinion on other GENESIS locos.
I wish OP all the best in getting his loco working.
Sheldon
I had a small fleet of Athearn BB locos, F-7s and GP-7s plus a powered and dummy PA1 set, which had for the most part been sitting on a shelf the last 25-30 years. Same for the Rivarossi steamers and a pair of Rivarossi E-8s. I had pretty much abandoned by previous layout because of time demands but I got back into the hobby about 20 years ago when I retired and moved into my present house. I made the decision to go DCC and didn't want to bother converting all those old locos. I decided last month to clean house and all those old locos needed was some serious wheel cleaning and with just a couple exceptions, they all still ran beautifully. Athearn BB were skimpy on detail and their coupler system was horrible, but they were all reliable runners, even after years of gathering dust.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless Track fiddler Yep, I've been noticing those things too Douglas. Out of the four brand new Atlas locomotives I have right now, one of them is the smoothest runner at a crawl. Another one is pretty good. The other two are somewhat subpar but with the luck I've been having, it's not quite enough for me to want to do returns anymore. Their speeds do not match up close enough. Which leads me to wonder as they will be used in consists. If the smoother running, quicker speed locomotives will be making up for the slower subpar locomotives, wearing on their wheels faster??? These things are definitely not cheap. The old saying "You get what you pay for" Isn't always necessarily true anymore is it? TF At the same time they are raising prices, they are cutting out some quality. I'm not going off on inflation adjusted pricing, because its probably still a good deal, but when you lower quality and raise price at the same time, its actually a much bigger embedded price increase than simply comparing MSRPs over time. No, I don't think that a more expensive loco means better quality. I simply think it means more features, which may not work as they should some times. Like a new car, more expensive simply means it has more options. "Loaded", as we say. Trains are becoming that way too, with the underlying quality probably worse than what it was 15 years ago. Definitely less consistent from same loco to same loco. JMO. I used to be able to buy a new Atlas Master series, and no matter the model or vintage, they would work the same. Some were ultra quiet, maybe a tad slower, but not nearly the variation from loco to loco that I see now with the brands I've been buying. Agreed, I think the mechanical parts of most of these products are very similar in quality. It is just detail and features that separate medium priced from high priced. Are the really cutting quality? Intentionally or by default? In what way? Or are these just the percentage duds that will make it thru? And we hear about them more today because we have the world wide web? Again, my personal selections of prototypes is small, I have lots of the same locos, 12 Proto GP7's, 15 Proto ALCO FA's, 7 Genesis F7's, 10 Spectrum heavy 4-8-2's, 10 Spectrum 2-8-0's, 5 Spectrum 2-6-6-2, etc. And I have not seen these wide variations in quality from unit to unit? Happy to be in my model train universe..... Sheldon
Doughless Track fiddler Yep, I've been noticing those things too Douglas. Out of the four brand new Atlas locomotives I have right now, one of them is the smoothest runner at a crawl. Another one is pretty good. The other two are somewhat subpar but with the luck I've been having, it's not quite enough for me to want to do returns anymore. Their speeds do not match up close enough. Which leads me to wonder as they will be used in consists. If the smoother running, quicker speed locomotives will be making up for the slower subpar locomotives, wearing on their wheels faster??? These things are definitely not cheap. The old saying "You get what you pay for" Isn't always necessarily true anymore is it? TF At the same time they are raising prices, they are cutting out some quality. I'm not going off on inflation adjusted pricing, because its probably still a good deal, but when you lower quality and raise price at the same time, its actually a much bigger embedded price increase than simply comparing MSRPs over time. No, I don't think that a more expensive loco means better quality. I simply think it means more features, which may not work as they should some times. Like a new car, more expensive simply means it has more options. "Loaded", as we say. Trains are becoming that way too, with the underlying quality probably worse than what it was 15 years ago. Definitely less consistent from same loco to same loco. JMO. I used to be able to buy a new Atlas Master series, and no matter the model or vintage, they would work the same. Some were ultra quiet, maybe a tad slower, but not nearly the variation from loco to loco that I see now with the brands I've been buying.
Track fiddler Yep, I've been noticing those things too Douglas. Out of the four brand new Atlas locomotives I have right now, one of them is the smoothest runner at a crawl. Another one is pretty good. The other two are somewhat subpar but with the luck I've been having, it's not quite enough for me to want to do returns anymore. Their speeds do not match up close enough. Which leads me to wonder as they will be used in consists. If the smoother running, quicker speed locomotives will be making up for the slower subpar locomotives, wearing on their wheels faster??? These things are definitely not cheap. The old saying "You get what you pay for" Isn't always necessarily true anymore is it? TF
Yep, I've been noticing those things too Douglas. Out of the four brand new Atlas locomotives I have right now, one of them is the smoothest runner at a crawl. Another one is pretty good. The other two are somewhat subpar but with the luck I've been having, it's not quite enough for me to want to do returns anymore.
Their speeds do not match up close enough. Which leads me to wonder as they will be used in consists. If the smoother running, quicker speed locomotives will be making up for the slower subpar locomotives, wearing on their wheels faster???
These things are definitely not cheap. The old saying "You get what you pay for" Isn't always necessarily true anymore is it?
TF
At the same time they are raising prices, they are cutting out some quality. I'm not going off on inflation adjusted pricing, because its probably still a good deal, but when you lower quality and raise price at the same time, its actually a much bigger embedded price increase than simply comparing MSRPs over time.
No, I don't think that a more expensive loco means better quality.
I simply think it means more features, which may not work as they should some times. Like a new car, more expensive simply means it has more options. "Loaded", as we say. Trains are becoming that way too, with the underlying quality probably worse than what it was 15 years ago. Definitely less consistent from same loco to same loco. JMO.
I used to be able to buy a new Atlas Master series, and no matter the model or vintage, they would work the same. Some were ultra quiet, maybe a tad slower, but not nearly the variation from loco to loco that I see now with the brands I've been buying.
Agreed, I think the mechanical parts of most of these products are very similar in quality. It is just detail and features that separate medium priced from high priced.
Are the really cutting quality? Intentionally or by default? In what way? Or are these just the percentage duds that will make it thru? And we hear about them more today because we have the world wide web?
Again, my personal selections of prototypes is small, I have lots of the same locos, 12 Proto GP7's, 15 Proto ALCO FA's, 7 Genesis F7's, 10 Spectrum heavy 4-8-2's, 10 Spectrum 2-8-0's, 5 Spectrum 2-6-6-2, etc. And I have not seen these wide variations in quality from unit to unit?
Happy to be in my model train universe.....
I dont like to bash companies because none are really worse than the other from a QC perspective. Don't want to give the impression its isolated to the two companies I mention. Its more about simply what I have bought.
But I'll be specific.
I have purchased at least one road name from every vintage of Atlas MP15 since their introduction back around 2005. Whether it was in my DC days or early QSI equipped, they started at the same voltage, ran extremely quiet. The mechanicals were consistent. Fantastic loco in all respects.
About the time they switched to ESU, and this isn't a decoder issue, simply the timing of when they made some production decisions, every MP15 I have purchased has sounded like a rattling can of marbles. Drivetrain. Like the truck gears have play and rattle around as they turn inside the truck.
Same deal with the GP38 and GP40. Back from 2000 to 2010, they were fantastic, from run to run, no variance. I have read others complain too. Since about the time of the ESU switch, they changed something else, their production lowered the tolerences of certain parts apparently. We already know about the motor switch from the black KATO clone to the silver motor.
Athearn Genesis switched to LEDs. Long overdue. Unlike most companies that have the LEDS attached securely into the chassis and deliver light via plastic pipe, ATHG runs individual LEDs every where. 4 wires to the cab for two LEDS. 4 wires to the back hood for 2 LEDs. Eight wires for front and rear ditch lights.
Often times, the LEDs are installed crooked. In fact, probably 75% of the 25 or so bought had at least one LED noticeably skewed. The result is that one LED is bright and straight, the other is dim and crooked. One even shined through to the cab interior it was so crooked.
I've gotten so many that I got tired of returning them at one point and finally learned to take the cab off of these $250 finely detailed locos to straighten a LED. Push too hard and the wires come off. Do that to the rear hood LED, and Athearn does not sell a replacement...out of stock...because the cab, rear, and ditchlight LEDs are all different sizes and they don't have the mid length bulb in stock.
Stupid stuff that is aggravating. I've learned how to fix the LEDs, but its not my job to do it, and I can't risk breaking anything because they have no parts in stock. Back they go and just send me a new loco, hoping they are installed correctly.
And ATHG are hit and miss too when it comes to truck noise and motor whine. The older designed RTRs (not the old BB sold under the Roundhouse name) are much quieter everywhere, every one of them.
- Douglas
Very good points well-taken.
If I could access the good sense in my brains I would be returning all four of these Atlas Twin Cities & Westerns in a second. Problems right out of the box brand new spells problems not too far down the road as well.
I always wanted to own a few Twin Cities & Westerns in my fleet roster. I think this is causing me to make a very bad decision I will probably regret. Maybe I should rethink things here.
And the same thing goes after I give two of these locomotives to my brother for his birthday and things start to go south. What kind of present would that be?
ATLANTIC CENTRALYes, the lack of service parts from all brands is frustrating to say the least.
When I worked in a hobby shop in 1985 we were told to push Tamiya R/C cars over all other brands.
The reason was that it was very easy to get replacement parts from Tamiya, and the owner would have fewer difficult customer interactions.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe recent Mikado, Pacific, GG1 and others are easily equal to Spectrum models operationally, just a little less detailed.
I can only speak to the new Bachmann GG-1. I know a few people that own them, and they are all thrilled with that model. I have seen them run, and they are a wonderful machine with plenty of pulling power.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Douglas, and there you have it, problems I will never have because I have no interest in those prototypes, no ditch lights, few lighted number boards, no decoders, etc.
Everybody once raved about Atlas, sounds like those days are over.
They have only made a few things in my era, it was always easier to just stay with Proto for most of those items.
I can't say I pay a lot of attention to gear noise, but I would not call any of my locos noisy. Maybe I don't care because drive line noise is not competing with a sound system?
Still happy I have most of what I want....
ATLANTIC CENTRALI can't say I pay a lot of attention to gear noise, but I would not call any of my locos noisy. Maybe I don't care because drive line noise is not competing with a sound system?
I only have one locomotive that I consider quiet. My Key Imports brass USRA light 4-8-2 runs with no noise at all.
That said, none of my locomotives make enough noise to interfere with the stereo speakers putting out the music of my choice while I play with trains.
Athearn blue box locomotives, with NWSL shims installed in a few strategic places to take out the slop, are plenty quiet for my needs. My pair of PAs cannot be heard when the music is on a low volume, and that is good enough. I think the PAs are my "noisiest" locomotives.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL All this makes me happy to not be buying much motive power these days, to not be using DCC/sound, to not be in N scale
All this makes me happy to not be buying much motive power these days, to not be using DCC/sound, to not be in N scale
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Douglas, and there you have it, problems I will never have because I have no interest in those prototypes, no ditch lights, few lighted number boards, no decoders, etc. Everybody once raved about Atlas, sounds like those days are over. They have only made a few things in my era, it was always easier to just stay with Proto for most of those items. I can't say I pay a lot of attention to gear noise, but I would not call any of my locos noisy. Maybe I don't care because drive line noise is not competing with a sound system? Still happy I have most of what I want.... Sheldon
Different priorities. I want 4 axle locos mainly. GP15s, MP15s, GP7 Topeka Cabs. I want LED front and rear ditchights. I want decent sound (none of it is great) but great slow speed motor control. Roadnames don't really matter because I patch them out anyway. In fact, factory painted patch outs are way more preferable than as-built colors and schemes.
I have not been truly satisfied with the production offerings since getting back into the hobby earnestly 20 years ago. My skills don't have the patience to fiddle with aftermarket ditchlights, nor wiring the tiny LEDs. I can't compete with factory paint jobs.
Bought stuff to be able to run something. Never complained about somebody not building something I wanted. I get it. I'm a niche market (but growing). But once ATHG started producing what I really wanted, pretty much everything purchased in the past 20 years became obsolete.
More features means more production issues. Fact of life. Provided that I can do the back and forth dance with the producer often enough to get one that sticks on the roster, I'm happy enough. Even with the shake my head aggrevation.
If they had parts, I'd fix more stuff myself.
The older P2Ks were very hit and miss when it came to drive train noise. Back when I didn't care for sound, quiet switching moves were the litmus test, but they were still stuck in as-built paint schemes. Parts were/are everywhere of course.
The pre-ESU vintages of Atlas' were wonderful. Every single one of them.
Track fiddler ATLANTIC CENTRAL All this makes me happy to not be buying much motive power these days, to not be using DCC/sound, to not be in N scale I know a lot of the members on the Forum here adapted to DCC when it came out learning all the knowledge that went with it. I kind of admire that as I haven't even begun to scratch the tip of the iceberg on it yet but do have an interest to pursue it one day. As for N scale, not many but there's a couple handfuls of members here that model N scale. They are proud of thier scale they have. Some grew up with it and some don't have the space to model HO or both. TF
I will admit, I readily confess, I do not have the skills to work in a scale as small as N. I admire the great work some so in that scale.
I have been told I am a skilled model builder, but N scale is just too small for my hands, and now too small for my eyes.
I worked in the hobby shop in the early days of N scale, that was my only real exposure to it.
As for DCC, I'm moderately well versed and have many hours running DCC on other peoples layouts, and helped build and wire some of those layouts.
I carefully considered DCC several times, but for my goals, on my kind of layout, it just did not make sense.
Signaling and CTC is necessary for me and DCC offers no serious advantages there.
I get everything about DCC, that's how I know I don't need or want it.
A big consideration with DCC is sound, don't want that either. I don't listen to music on a cell phone either........
My Advanced Cab Control is not "simple", but it makes the user interface as simple as, or even easier than DCC.
Track fiddler ATLANTIC CENTRAL All this makes me happy to not be buying much motive power these days, to not be using DCC/sound, to not be in N scale I know a lot of the members on the Forum here adapted to DCC when it came out learning all the knowledge that went with it. I kind of admire that as I haven't even begun to scratch the tip of the iceberg on it yet but do have an interest to pursue it one day. TF
I can relate to that. I have only done a minimal amount with CVs and primarily to disable advanced functions they some of the high end decoders have pre-programmed. I want my locos to respond immediately to the throttle, I want my diesels to hum and go beep. I want my steamers to chuff and whistle. That's as advanced as I need for my purposes. Some of the things I see other modelers doing with advanced functions make my head spin. I went with DCC because I didn't want to have a basement sized layout with control blocks. Shortly after I started building, sound became an option and I was immediately hooked. All new purchases have factory sound and I have converted several older locos as well. About 90% of my fleet now has sound. Eventually I'd like to get that to 100%.
I hear ya Sheldon
I would have started back out in Ho after 35 years because my nearsightedness isn't anything close to what it used to be.
When I downsized I may have took it a step too far as I would love to have an around the room layout in HO. What floors me is my little Brother does have the room to do an around the room layout in HO but he chose N scale because he grew up with it.
Track fiddlerI know a lot of the members on the Forum here adapted to DCC when it came out learning all the knowledge that went with it. I kind of admire that as I haven't even begun to scratch the tip of the iceberg on it yet but do have an interest to pursue it one day.
I have operated a few N scale layout that used DCC.
Believe it or not, DCC seems to make perfect sense on a huge N scale layout. In N scale you get lots of big trains, lot of operators, and lots of track.
DCC really shines in this situation.
None of the N scale DCC locomotives I ran had sound or lighting effects. The DCC was simply for nuts-and-bolts basic operation, and it was wonderful.
York1 and a small amount of criticism, over working on a new locomotive versus fixing it yourself.
and a small amount of criticism, over working on a new locomotive versus fixing it yourself.
I was probably too harsh in my criticism, even though none of it was intended to be directed to the OP. Im just constently disappointed at the amount of "broken" or "parts only" engines that are on ebay (or in the landfill) these days of engines that had little to no issue with them, besides maybe a loose wire, loose detail part, or misprogrammed decoder.
If its a common factory defect that's detrimental to a piece's performance (*cough* Bachmann's split axles), then I fully agree you should return it. But if it's something small, and easy to fix*, I think its worthwhile atleast attempting to do so. The modern habit of demanding refunds for the most miniscule and minor defect just for it to be discarded** by the manufacturer frustrates me.
We now live in a world where much waste comes from consumer's high expectations. For example, (off topic) 40% of food waste in the US comes from tossing out visually imperfect produce. It's unrelated to this hobby yes, but it shows what our society has become. And sometimes, when I read something like:
John-NYBW If I bought something brand new and it broke the first day...I wouldn't even attempt to fix it.
If I bought something brand new and it broke the first day...I wouldn't even attempt to fix it.
Anyways, I hope the OP updates us with what happened to the SD40-2, I think a trending thread like this is worthy of an update, atleat to satisfy our curiosity.
Charles
*I incorrectly assumed that KATO engines should have bulletproof mechanisms therefore it should be an easy fix.
**discarded or being turned into spare parts, a waste of a perfectly good engine
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
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Lastspikemike Parts are VERY expensive to store, handle and sell. Now that a whole new fully assembled locomotive or rolling stock costs so little it does not make economic sense to even make spare parts. Case in point: try buying a few screws or bolts as compared to a box of several hundred and work out the per unit pricing. Shocking. If you own any used locomotives consider buying up any others that come available so you'll have spare parts. I'm currently repairing a Spectrum 80 ton three truck Shay with NWSL gears. Not an economically sensible thing to do AT ALL and quite a challenge to boot. The gears alone cost more than $50.00.
Parts are VERY expensive to store, handle and sell. Now that a whole new fully assembled locomotive or rolling stock costs so little it does not make economic sense to even make spare parts. Case in point: try buying a few screws or bolts as compared to a box of several hundred and work out the per unit pricing. Shocking.
If you own any used locomotives consider buying up any others that come available so you'll have spare parts.
I'm currently repairing a Spectrum 80 ton three truck Shay with NWSL gears. Not an economically sensible thing to do AT ALL and quite a challenge to boot. The gears alone cost more than $50.00.
Athearn still has parts for Blue Box locos you can order. Not sure if they still make them, or they just made a billion too many back in the day. Atlas still has parts for their shells, and some other pieces, but its not nearly at the same level as it used to be. I'd have to think the more niche producers like Rapido and Scaltrains don't even bother with spare parts. They probably just use factory QC fails as parts donors until they run out.
As locos have gotten more features, the number of parts seem to wane. I'd think if they would make a part for a "proto specific detail", they would make 500 over what they need for just the 100 they need for that one run. That 101st part and beyond costs nothing.
Storing? Well, we see dealers offering products they don't hold in inventory, but must order. Blue Rail Hobbies? My guess is that producers themselves don't actually own inventory either, or much of it, and make what can be absorbed by dealers in three months and shipped out directly as units are produced, so producers probably don't even own storage facilities. But if they did, costs to store parts would be nil.
Trainman440 The modern habit of demanding refunds for the most miniscule and minor defect just for it to be discarded** by the manufacturer frustrates me. We now live in a world where much waste comes from consumer's high expectations. Charles
The modern habit of demanding refunds for the most miniscule and minor defect just for it to be discarded** by the manufacturer frustrates me.
We now live in a world where much waste comes from consumer's high expectations.
Backshop Trainman440 The modern habit of demanding refunds for the most miniscule and minor defect just for it to be discarded** by the manufacturer frustrates me. We now live in a world where much waste comes from consumer's high expectations. Charles I totally disagree. We have "high expectations" because we expect a new product to work? Do you work on your brand new car or dishwasher? The problem is quite the opposite. People are too used to returning brand new defective products, no questions asked. As long as a product has a warranty, they don't care. I remember back when if a product was junk, you never bought that brand again.
I totally disagree. We have "high expectations" because we expect a new product to work? Do you work on your brand new car or dishwasher? The problem is quite the opposite. People are too used to returning brand new defective products, no questions asked. As long as a product has a warranty, they don't care. I remember back when if a product was junk, you never bought that brand again.
And that is a foolish view because after you bought a car with a recall or defect from every brand, which brand would you buy?
Real cars, model trains, they have all made some duds, but mostly make winners.
I have never had a new car problem that was not fixed to my satisfaction, I have never had a new model train problem that was not fixed to my satisfaction, and the number of problems has been small.
And more times than not the problems have been small.
John-NYBW Track fiddler ATLANTIC CENTRAL All this makes me happy to not be buying much motive power these days, to not be using DCC/sound, to not be in N scale I know a lot of the members on the Forum here adapted to DCC when it came out learning all the knowledge that went with it. I kind of admire that as I haven't even begun to scratch the tip of the iceberg on it yet but do have an interest to pursue it one day. TF I can relate to that. I have only done a minimal amount with CVs and primarily to disable advanced functions they some of the high end decoders have pre-programmed. I want my locos to respond immediately to the throttle, I want my diesels to hum and go beep. I want my steamers to chuff and whistle. That's as advanced as I need for my purposes. Some of the things I see other modelers doing with advanced functions make my head spin. I went with DCC because I didn't want to have a basement sized layout with control blocks. Shortly after I started building, sound became an option and I was immediately hooked. All new purchases have factory sound and I have converted several older locos as well. About 90% of my fleet now has sound. Eventually I'd like to get that to 100%.
And this just shows the diversity of this hobby.
I'm getting ready to build a basement sized layout (1500 sq ft) with DC control.
Guess what? There will not be one "block toggle", there will be radio throttles and walk around operation, not to mention CTC and signals, and a very easy to understand way for 8-10 operators to run at the same time.
BUT - no sound. The last thing I want is 30 of those little squawk boxes all going at the same time - no matter how low the volume.
You say why 30 of them? Because the average train, about 45 cars, will have 3-4 diesels or two steamers on the head end.
I can't stand that tinny noise that comes out of those things. Kind of like the nine transistor radio I had in 1968.
I understand, you and a lot of people feel differently. That's OK.
So now I completely get your locomotive buying mentality, I'm more interested in kit bashing stuff like this:
Bachmann 2-8-4 kit bashed into a freelance heavy Mike similar to the DT&I 800 class. Weight added for better pulling power. This shot before the paint shop shows the kit built brass trailing truck. I built 5 of these.
This hobby is different for everyone, we all find our own calling in it.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Backshop Trainman440 The modern habit of demanding refunds for the most miniscule and minor defect just for it to be discarded** by the manufacturer frustrates me. We now live in a world where much waste comes from consumer's high expectations. Charles I totally disagree. We have "high expectations" because we expect a new product to work? Do you work on your brand new car or dishwasher? The problem is quite the opposite. People are too used to returning brand new defective products, no questions asked. As long as a product has a warranty, they don't care. I remember back when if a product was junk, you never bought that brand again. And that is a foolish view because after you bought a car with a recall or defect from every brand, which brand would you buy? Real cars, model trains, they have all made some duds, but mostly make winners. I have never had a new car problem that was not fixed to my satisfaction, I have never had a new model train problem that was not fixed to my satisfaction, and the number of problems has been small. And more times than not the problems have been small. Sheldon
Backshop You missed the gist of the post, Sheldon. I was replying to someone who said that you should fix brand new products when they break and not return them. One defect or recall does not equate to "junk". I got rid of a Ford Focus last year. I'd been a loyal Ford owner for 30+ years but the way that they (didn't) handle the transmission screwup made me swear off them forever.
You missed the gist of the post, Sheldon. I was replying to someone who said that you should fix brand new products when they break and not return them. One defect or recall does not equate to "junk". I got rid of a Ford Focus last year. I'd been a loyal Ford owner for 30+ years but the way that they (didn't) handle the transmission screwup made me swear off them forever.
I got the gist of it just fine. I'm a Ford driver, broken hearted that they stopped building the FLEX. But this is not the car forum.
Everybody takes this as an all or nothing situation. If I take any product out of its package and there is a minor problem I can take care of at no measurable expense and without compromising what I purchased, I'm going to save myself the trouble of returning it.
If its truely screwed up, its going back.
For each type of product, and each individual, the threshold of that will be different.
But I design and build houses for a living, I have build cars from the ground up as a hobby, including the engines and transmissions. I design and build stereo speakers as hobby, I designed my own control system for my trains. I was repairing trains in a hobby shop at age 15, I'm 63 now. So fixing a lot of stuff is not a challenge for me.
I was not the person in this thread who suggested that one should fix defects, but I understand the thinking and have fixed lots of minor issues with trains I have bought.
In fact I published on this forum years ago a series of minor improvements for a number of the Bachmann Spectrum steam locomotives. Were they "defects"? Not exactly. Would those locomotives been better if Bachmann had done those things? Yes. Were they simple to do? For the most part, yes.
Would I simply reject those models as possible choices because of these minor issues? Well that would leave me without a number of my best and most favorite locos.
You are welcome to drive whatever you like.
PS - Intermountain, Bachmann, Athearn, Bowser, Walthers and LifeLike have all provided me with free parts to correct minor problems over the 50 years I have been in this hobby. And I am thankful for their great customer service, rather than disgruntled that there was a problem.
And while my daughter got great service from a Focus years ago, I prefer roomier more utilitarian vehicles.
Backshop ATLANTIC CENTRAL Backshop Trainman440 The modern habit of demanding refunds for the most miniscule and minor defect just for it to be discarded** by the manufacturer frustrates me. We now live in a world where much waste comes from consumer's high expectations. Charles I totally disagree. We have "high expectations" because we expect a new product to work? Do you work on your brand new car or dishwasher? The problem is quite the opposite. People are too used to returning brand new defective products, no questions asked. As long as a product has a warranty, they don't care. I remember back when if a product was junk, you never bought that brand again. And that is a foolish view because after you bought a car with a recall or defect from every brand, which brand would you buy? Real cars, model trains, they have all made some duds, but mostly make winners. I have never had a new car problem that was not fixed to my satisfaction, I have never had a new model train problem that was not fixed to my satisfaction, and the number of problems has been small. And more times than not the problems have been small. Sheldon You missed the gist of the post, Sheldon. I was replying to someone who said that you should fix brand new products when they break and not return them. One defect or recall does not equate to "junk". I got rid of a Ford Focus last year. I'd been a loyal Ford owner for 30+ years but the way that they (didn't) handle the transmission screwup made me swear off them forever.
Not to get OT, but I test drove one new, and drove two different Foci for business rentals. I thought they shifted poorly when I drove them, just wonky and sort of unresponsive to the throttle.
I liked the little car, but I swear I'd only ever own a 5 speed manual version.
So the tranny is actually a bad design? I'm not suprised.
I've driven other dual clutch automatics in other brands (which is what I think the Focus' was) and they all were slow to respond, IMO.
If it's something minor, like a handrail that's popped out of place and I can easily pop it back into place, it's a lot less trouble to do that than take it back. However if the handrail is broken, I'm not going to try to fix it. Maybe the manufacturer would rather send me a replacement handrail than to get the loco returned, but that's up to them. I'm also not going "under the hood" to fix a mechanical problem with a loco. If it doesn't run and I've eliminated layout electrical problems or operator error as the reason, it's going back. Earlier I described such an item as junk. I didn't mean to imply that the entire line was junk, just that particular item. Maybe it's 1 in 10,000 that's bad but if it's the one I got, that one is junk and I'm entitled to refund or replacement.
Whether you fix a defect yourself or return it to the hobby shop you purchased it from, I still think it's a good idea to send a email or find another way to let the manufacturer know what kind of problem or problems that you are having. This at least gives them an opportunity to fix the issue on future runs. I also model in N scale and of all the brands that I have purchased, Kato has been the most trouble free. But when it came to getting something fixed FVM and ScaleTrains have been super to work with. I also got good help from Atlas. But I have noticed that quaity issues that people were having on the first runs of ScaleTrains were fixed on the next runs so they did listen. Ralph
Doughless Not to get OT, but I test drove one new, and drove two different Foci for business rentals. I thought they shifted poorly when I drove them, just wonky and sort of unresponsive to the throttle. I liked the little car, but I swear I'd only ever own a 5 speed manual version. So the tranny is actually a bad design? I'm not suprised. I've driven other dual clutch automatics in other brands (which is what I think the Focus' was) and they all were slow to respond, IMO.
Well if we are going to go OT, We have been driving exclusively FORDs for 27 years now and have had great service from all of them.
Within our family, in 27 years, there have been:
2 Crown Vic's (both with performance packages)
3 Explorer's
1 Thunderbird
1 Ranger
1 Focus
3 F series pickups
1 "Volvo/500" based Taurus
2 FLEXs (both ecoboost)
Some met bad ends in crashes and saved our lives.
Currently in the garage are a 2015 FLEX LIMITED w/Eccoboost and a 2015 F250 4x4 extended cab/8' bed.
I don't see anything on the road that would meet our needs better.
And it's a lot of fun to drive a 360 hp twin turbo station wagon that does 0-60 in 5 seconds, 1/4 mile in under 15 seconds. Not the fastest car on the road, but easily one of the fastest cars with this much comfort and utility.
In its day, the best car I owned was one of these:
Between my parents and I, we put a total of 800,000 miles on three of these, in a time when few cars went much past 120,000 miles.
And this one I restored and hot rodded at age 19 then drove for 7 years:
This will give some idea of the extend of the work done:
"Take this thread to Cuba!"
Younger folks might not get the reference.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Pruitt "Take this thread to Cuba!" Younger folks might not get the reference.
I'm 63 and I don't get the reference.
Pruitt"Take this thread to Cuba!" Younger folks might not get the reference.
I don't get it, and I am usually pretty good at pop-culture references.
SeeYou190I don't get it, and I am usually pretty good at pop-culture references.
I think it refers to the spate of frequent, 1960s and early '70s aircraft detours to the sunny island just off the Southern coast of Florida.
If you see your friend at the airport, don't holler "Hi, Jack!"
Regards, Ed
gmpullman SeeYou190 I don't get it, and I am usually pretty good at pop-culture references. I think it refers to the spate of frequent, 1960s and early '70s aircraft detours to the sunny island just off the Southern coast of Florida. If you see your friend at the airport, don't holler "Hi, Jack!" Regards, Ed
SeeYou190 I don't get it, and I am usually pretty good at pop-culture references.
Well Hijacked it might be, or, it just might be conversation........
The OP recieved lots of sound advice on his situation, and the conversation continued because some people had strong opinions about the advice offered by some others.
And so it goes.
gmpullmanI think it refers to the spate of frequent, 1960s and early '70s aircraft detours to the sunny island just off the Southern coast of Florida. If you see your friend at the airport, don't holler "Hi, Jack!" Regards, Ed
I can't believe youse guys who are about my age didn't get that. It happened a lot back in the late 60's and early 70's.
Yeah, I paraphrased it a bit to fit the situation, but...
PruittI can't believe youse guys who are about my age didn't get that.
Didn't Trains Magazine do some kind of spoof back then? Maybe it was M-R, even?
"I'm Melvin — Take Me to Chicago!" or something like that...
Cheers, Ed