Well, at least you gents are lucky with the MTH HO line going into capable hands.
O-Gaugers like myself have NO idea of what's going to happen with the MTH O Gauge line. I hope it doesn't wind up like the Williams O Gauge product line, Bachmann bought it and then apparantly didn't know what to do with it. Just shell of what it once was.
The interesting point is that the mass-produced models tend to be differentiated not by model type, but by the features: DCC, sound, smoke with synchronized chuff, class lights, etc.
The mass market still coalesces (particularly for steam) around a well known range of prototypes, as it has for decades.
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
Thanks.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Bayfield Transfer Railway ATLANTIC CENTRAL Bayfield Transfer Railway I'd love to see Scale Trains rework the FAs and F units to their standards! And why would it matter? The market is already dripping with great FA's and F units? There is a point where too much competition is a bad thing for any industry. When it comes to certain items, this hobby is at that point. Way too much duplication by multiple manufacturers. Sheldon Because Scale Trains does working class/marker lights. That alone is enough.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Bayfield Transfer Railway I'd love to see Scale Trains rework the FAs and F units to their standards! And why would it matter? The market is already dripping with great FA's and F units? There is a point where too much competition is a bad thing for any industry. When it comes to certain items, this hobby is at that point. Way too much duplication by multiple manufacturers. Sheldon
Bayfield Transfer Railway I'd love to see Scale Trains rework the FAs and F units to their standards!
I'd love to see Scale Trains rework the FAs and F units to their standards!
And why would it matter? The market is already dripping with great FA's and F units?
There is a point where too much competition is a bad thing for any industry. When it comes to certain items, this hobby is at that point.
Way too much duplication by multiple manufacturers.
Sheldon
Because Scale Trains does working class/marker lights. That alone is enough.
OK, not something I have any interest in, so if that's what works for you, great. I hope you get the models you want.
rrinker n012944 rrinker Where are the FAs? In either Reading or Undec? Not to be found. And even undec is an iffy choice as decals get harder to come by because no one seems to bother doing it themselves any more. NOS is drying up, and getting hard to find these days since no train shows and eBay constantly monkeying with what made them a good place to go for things and turning it into a mockery. Only P2K made B units. Rapido made FA B units. They also were availble undecorated. https://rapidotrains.com/products/ho-scale/diesel-locomotives/ho-scale-alcomlw-fb-2-fpb-2 Except Reading FAs are FA1, not FA2. Yes, there is a difference. --Randy
n012944 rrinker Where are the FAs? In either Reading or Undec? Not to be found. And even undec is an iffy choice as decals get harder to come by because no one seems to bother doing it themselves any more. NOS is drying up, and getting hard to find these days since no train shows and eBay constantly monkeying with what made them a good place to go for things and turning it into a mockery. Only P2K made B units. Rapido made FA B units. They also were availble undecorated. https://rapidotrains.com/products/ho-scale/diesel-locomotives/ho-scale-alcomlw-fb-2-fpb-2
rrinker Where are the FAs? In either Reading or Undec? Not to be found. And even undec is an iffy choice as decals get harder to come by because no one seems to bother doing it themselves any more. NOS is drying up, and getting hard to find these days since no train shows and eBay constantly monkeying with what made them a good place to go for things and turning it into a mockery. Only P2K made B units.
Where are the FAs? In either Reading or Undec? Not to be found. And even undec is an iffy choice as decals get harder to come by because no one seems to bother doing it themselves any more. NOS is drying up, and getting hard to find these days since no train shows and eBay constantly monkeying with what made them a good place to go for things and turning it into a mockery. Only P2K made B units.
Rapido made FA B units. They also were availble undecorated.
https://rapidotrains.com/products/ho-scale/diesel-locomotives/ho-scale-alcomlw-fb-2-fpb-2
Except Reading FAs are FA1, not FA2. Yes, there is a difference.
--Randy
Proto did make both FA1's and FA2's, I have a fair number of both.
It appears they only offered READING one time, in the 2nd release, A/B sets in two different road numbers. That was in the year 2000.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/proto-2000-READING-FA1-powered-engine-HO-scale/293043410241?hash=item443abf9541:g:CLsAAOSwPqRaB04l
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
To Sheldon's point, when I was just getting into N scale and wanted to model BNSF, one problems I had was that most of what I wanted was already unavailable or I could order some of what I wanted and wait 9 months to a year or longer to get it. The only exception being Kato which usually produces enough product that it's available for a good while, at least in most cases. I had been in the hobby a long time by this point and knew what to expect, but if I were new and just starting out my choices if I didn't want to wait, would have been chose another railroad that had more of what I wanted available of go on to something else.
OTOH, I do understand that limited runs make less popular railroad locomotive and rolling stock possible than in the old days, I just wish they had extra inventory on had because if you are wanting a GM&O GP38-2 and you came late to the game, it may be years before you see one again.
Ralph
riogrande5761 You make it sound like a bad thing. But if they are selling enough product to make a profit, then the good news for us is we have choices.
You make it sound like a bad thing. But if they are selling enough product to make a profit, then the good news for us is we have choices.
Douglas is right.
Preorders or no preorders, if the product is not available when buyers want it, some of those buyers will NEVER purchase it.
I could be wrong, but based on my experiances selling hobbies, and model trains in particular, I think this is happening more than many people think.
I understand the long list of challenges here, maybe better than those who keep telling me to just accept the way things are now, but sales, and potential expansion of interest in this hobby, are being lost.
I'm not suggesting that there is a workable economic solution to the problem, but I think the problem is real. And IF there is some sort of "decline" in this hobby, poor product availablity is one of the causes.
A choice is not a choice if it is not available when I am ready to spend money.
And, some people live for the "hunt" on the secondary market, and the secondary market has been good for the hobby, but I hate the "hunt", I see it as a necessary evil and sometimes a waste of valueable time.
In fact, with manufacturers playing inventories so close to the vest, the secondary market, and the willingness of some vendors to be a little bit speculative, might be what is keeping the hobby afloat.
I have said this before, and I am totally serious. Based on current product availablity if I was getting into this hobby today - I would not.
I have 90% of all the trains I ever want to have, it has been a 53 year adventure of modeling and acquisition. If I had to start over, I would not.
And if I feel this way, then lots of new people are getting discouraged by not being able to buy trains they are interested in, because they "missed" the preorder and release two years before they even took an interest in the hobby.
I have a personal example - Athearn made some MDC Harriman cars in B&O about 5-6 years ago. I missed them, I would buy two sets of the RPO/Baggage/Combine sets of those in a hot second if I found them or if Athearn re-runs them. I have not found them ANYWHERE.
Meanwhile, I have moved on to other projects....
And I spend ZERO time waiting or wondering what will be made next. I preorder now and then, but then I just forget about it until, or if, it shows up. Like the undecorated Rapido PA's that I preordered that are now canceled. I found some more undecorated 25 year old Proto models on Ebay.........from back when companies made trains and then sold them.......
I guess I'm just thinking about it in a macro sense.
Too may companies means product isn't being delivered to market as efficiently as it could be.
Either prices are too high or product availability is sporadic from too many niche producers, leaving some people on the sidelines that could other wise buy trains they want.
Just in a business sense, the same dollar of sales delivered with fewer companies usually means overhead is lower and prices are lower with more units sold. That's all I meant.
- Douglas
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Here is a silly idea, maybe if six different companies were not making the same thing, that would be an incentive for one or two companies to make them more often, and create some sense of them being "in stock" most of the time? Sheldon
Here is a silly idea, maybe if six different companies were not making the same thing, that would be an incentive for one or two companies to make them more often, and create some sense of them being "in stock" most of the time?
Over the past 10 to 15 years, it seemed to me like there were too many companies in the hobby making locos and cars.
Texas Zephyr ATLANTIC CENTRAL Here is a silly idea, maybe if six different companies were not making the same thing, that would be an incentive for one or two companies to make them more often, and create some sense of them being "in stock" most of the time? Makes sense to a consumer, but too much "in stock" all the time is not a good thing to a seller. Especially since the government wants to continually tax inventory, doesn't matter if it was the same inventory that was taxed last year. We now live in a drop ship world.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Here is a silly idea, maybe if six different companies were not making the same thing, that would be an incentive for one or two companies to make them more often, and create some sense of them being "in stock" most of the time?
Makes sense to a consumer, but too much "in stock" all the time is not a good thing to a seller. Especially since the government wants to continually tax inventory, doesn't matter if it was the same inventory that was taxed last year. We now live in a drop ship world.
I worked in this business 35-40 years ago, let me tell you a secret, Athearn only produced two or three products at any given moment. Everything was "batch" production just like now.
The only difference was the marketing and distribution chain made it so most (65% to 85%) of the items were available somewhere all the time.
Yes, there was less total selection, yes the products were more generic, and most importantly there were 40 years less prototypes to choose from.
Athearn would spend a month making what they hoped would satisfy the F7 market or a year or 18 months. Lots of it when right out to distributors and large dealers. Some of it sat there at Athearn for a little while.
Yes, in 18 months the most popular road names wouild be getting harder to find - and then another batch would be run. And so on with every product in the line.
They did not have a lot of competition..........
Inventory taxes are a state by state thing, and not as big a factor in running a business as most people think. In fact most states don't have inventory taxes, which are really "business personal property taxes", but most require inventory tracking for an accurate "cost of goods sold" in figuring your taxable net profit.
That is not why businesses don't want to hold unnecessary inventory.
ATLANTIC CENTRALHere is a silly idea, maybe if six different companies were not making the same thing, that would be an incentive for one or two companies to make them more often, and create some sense of them being "in stock" most of the time?
An "expensive model collector"
Yes a lot of companies make F units as well as the GP 38-2 that are a staple on my layout. As with the first responders unit I mentioned above it took a special reason to go MTH vs the other guys.
If scaletrains follows through on their plans to use standard DCC on former MTH tooling I will consider buying them.
Joe Staten Island West
EMD F units, I agree. Everyone and their brother makes EMD F units. MTH brought nothing new or special to the table. Bult the Alco FA, the MTH came out with theirs, the Trainline one was out of production for many years, as was the P2K version, and it was before Rapido made theirs. It was the only game in town.
Face it, the general bobby buy is not who is represented here - so many here say no Big Boy, yet no matter how many manufacturers make one, no matter how many runs they do of them, they all sell out. Try something different, that hasn't been done before? Why take the chance, when they can push all the Big Boys their factory can produce.
F units I agree, but iirc only Proto 2000/walthers mainline, proto 1000/walthers trainline, Bachmann, and rapido has made FA units. I wouldnt mind Scale Trains releasing the MTH FA units.
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
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PruittGood to see that an ethical company is taking over. I might consider buying some of their products, if they produce the steamers. I just couldn't bring myself to support MTH because of their past business practices.
I just couldn't bring myself to support MTH because of their past business practices.
I have one MTH locomotive the NS First responders GP 38-2. Had I known Atlas was going to produce the same model I would have gone with that.
It seems as though Scale Trains is finally going to correct MTH's 3 rail logic to conform with the rest of the 2 rail world.
rrinker They can reach the same top speed on DC - if you feed them more than NMRA standard 12 volts. It works on DCC in part because it's responding to the DCC signal but also because typical DCC track voltage for HO is a bit higher than the DC standard, usually 14-15V. Just another of their incompatibility with existing standards. They sort of work on DCC (newer ones work better than the older ones). They sort of work on DC. You were supposed to buy a DCS system to run them and get all of the features. But then you had a control system with no way to convert non-MTH locos. If you could take say a Bachmann DC loco and convert it to DCS by adding a DCS receiver, they might have had something and maybe some people would have gone that way, but they didn't, so you were stuck with just the selection offered by MTH. --Randy
They can reach the same top speed on DC - if you feed them more than NMRA standard 12 volts. It works on DCC in part because it's responding to the DCC signal but also because typical DCC track voltage for HO is a bit higher than the DC standard, usually 14-15V.
Just another of their incompatibility with existing standards. They sort of work on DCC (newer ones work better than the older ones). They sort of work on DC. You were supposed to buy a DCS system to run them and get all of the features. But then you had a control system with no way to convert non-MTH locos. If you could take say a Bachmann DC loco and convert it to DCS by adding a DCS receiver, they might have had something and maybe some people would have gone that way, but they didn't, so you were stuck with just the selection offered by MTH.
Again, like I said, I'm not running my DC trains on 18 volts.
I use 13.8 volt regulated power supplies with my Train Engineer throttles (which likely would not work any better with a DCS decoder than they do with a DCC decoder) and all my DC locos run at acceptable top speeds.
This problem with MTH was reported from the very first HO release.
Ah, nevermind then haha
Trainman440 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Read any honest MTH product review and you will read about how on DC the locos will only run about 35 smph at 12-14 volts. I don't run my DC trains on 18 volts......... And getting DCS locos to run double headed with other brands is problematic on DCC. Actually not true, atleast in my experience. My two K4s, USRA 2-8-2 and F7 from MTH go plenty fast, much much faster than 35 smph... I havent bothered to track their speed but Id say they can easily reach 90 smph. And I use a basic NCE powercab which runs at 13.5v. I looked through my videos and found a clip of my K4 around speed step 40-60 going much faster than 35 smph: https://youtu.be/G3qvKvvUnho?t=202 I dont feel comfortable making it go any faster around my tight curves lol. Consisting is a pain in DCC but it is most certainly possible, you'll have to manually program the CVs though, my NCE adv consist system didnt work on them. I got my double MTH K4s consist make a cameo in one of my videos here, they run fine together. https://youtu.be/pefZrhsHOds?t=34 Charles PS and yes, I forgot about Rivarossi's rendition of the Empire state. Oops.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Read any honest MTH product review and you will read about how on DC the locos will only run about 35 smph at 12-14 volts. I don't run my DC trains on 18 volts......... And getting DCS locos to run double headed with other brands is problematic on DCC.
Read any honest MTH product review and you will read about how on DC the locos will only run about 35 smph at 12-14 volts.
I don't run my DC trains on 18 volts.........
And getting DCS locos to run double headed with other brands is problematic on DCC.
Actually not true, atleast in my experience. My two K4s, USRA 2-8-2 and F7 from MTH go plenty fast, much much faster than 35 smph... I havent bothered to track their speed but Id say they can easily reach 90 smph. And I use a basic NCE powercab which runs at 13.5v.
I looked through my videos and found a clip of my K4 around speed step 40-60 going much faster than 35 smph: https://youtu.be/G3qvKvvUnho?t=202
I dont feel comfortable making it go any faster around my tight curves lol.
Consisting is a pain in DCC but it is most certainly possible, you'll have to manually program the CVs though, my NCE adv consist system didnt work on them.
I got my double MTH K4s consist make a cameo in one of my videos here, they run fine together.
https://youtu.be/pefZrhsHOds?t=34
Charles
PS and yes, I forgot about Rivarossi's rendition of the Empire state. Oops.
Charles, I'm not talking about DCC track voltage, on regular DC they will not run full speed, the DCS decoders for some reason will not let full voltage thru from a DC power pack.
It is not just a high starting voltage issue then with a compressed speed adjustment like DCC, it is a lack of abilty to get past a medium speed even at full voltage.
This has been widely reported by reviewers in a number of publications.
Trainman440 Overall, I like the variation of steamers they bring to the table(especially the NYC mohawks, empire state which no one else has made), and am glad now they will have non of that MTH propriatary junk. I hope scale trains will update some details, but would not be surprised if they didnt. Charles
Overall, I like the variation of steamers they bring to the table(especially the NYC mohawks, empire state which no one else has made), and am glad now they will have non of that MTH propriatary junk. I hope scale trains will update some details, but would not be surprised if they didnt.
Correction. In 1991, Rivarossi and Con-Cor put out a combined set for the Empire State Express. It was a Rivarossi Hudson and Con-Cor passenger cars. I bought the set. I wasn't impressed with the Con-Cor cars but the Hudson was typical for Rivarossi at that time. I upgraded the passenger cars with lots of extra weight, new wheelsets, diaphragms, and body mounted KD couplers to make them acceptable.
I don't know if the loco is still available from Rivarossi or not. I haven't bought anything new from them in many years. Mine is sitting gathering dust because I never got around to retrofitting it with a decoder. When the MTH version came out, I hopped on it. MTH offered it in several road numbers and without even bothering to check I ordered the one with the same number as the Rivarossi one, 5426.