ATLANTIC CENTRAL I agree with Ed, allowing the middle axle some more vertical motion would be a good idea. Sheldon
I agree with Ed, allowing the middle axle some more vertical motion would be a good idea.
Sheldon
Rich
Alton Junction
gmpullman richhotrain "Swap the front truck for the rear one"? Trouble is, that is really not a solution. Just moving the problem around. Rich The Alco PA has a fifteen foot-six inch truck wheelbase. Life-Like's design leaves something to be desired with the two rigid strips on the insides of the side frames which engage the axle ends. There is no provision for flexing or equalization. By contrast their E8 truck has a knee-action pivot which allows one pair of axles to remain rigid while the third axle can rise and fall with undulations in the track work. A very good design IMHO. L-L_E8_truck by Edmund, on Flickr Note the pivot point at the bright, brass rivet and the two springs which provide downward pressure on the trailing axle. Also, the bronze bearings are allowed to "float" inside those metal retainers. I have had some issues early on when I first got these PAs, what, fifteen years ago, maybe twenty? I had most of my curves superelevated. That caused some troubles with these almost 16' wheelbase trucks. Like you, I pinpointed trouble areas and eventually worked them all out. It may be that some of the "stiffness" of the axle journals and the pivot points of the truck bolsters have "loosened up" over the years. I probably have over a hundred hours or more running time on these engines. If your truck is not sitting with all six flanges touching evenly on a flat surface that has to mean that those stamped metal inserts have been compromised in some way. Maybe even a shock during shipping or other impact that warped the metal strip. IF you have a drill bit just slightly larger than the bore in the side frame stamping you could slightly enlarge the hole for the center axle which may allow some "float". A reamer would be better. I'm thinking just .0015± or so enlargement. L-L-PA-sideframe by Edmund, on Flickr The "journal" diameter is 1.47mm (.0580") you could try a #53 drill (.0595") and see if that allows a little "slop" for the middle axle. Just an idea. Otherwise if you can pinpoint which wheelset/axle is out of "tram" with the others you could try carefully tweaking the metal strip to correct the misalignment. Regards, Ed
richhotrain "Swap the front truck for the rear one"? Trouble is, that is really not a solution. Just moving the problem around. Rich
"Swap the front truck for the rear one"?
Trouble is, that is really not a solution. Just moving the problem around.
The Alco PA has a fifteen foot-six inch truck wheelbase. Life-Like's design leaves something to be desired with the two rigid strips on the insides of the side frames which engage the axle ends.
There is no provision for flexing or equalization. By contrast their E8 truck has a knee-action pivot which allows one pair of axles to remain rigid while the third axle can rise and fall with undulations in the track work. A very good design IMHO.
L-L_E8_truck by Edmund, on Flickr
Note the pivot point at the bright, brass rivet and the two springs which provide downward pressure on the trailing axle. Also, the bronze bearings are allowed to "float" inside those metal retainers.
I have had some issues early on when I first got these PAs, what, fifteen years ago, maybe twenty?
I had most of my curves superelevated. That caused some troubles with these almost 16' wheelbase trucks. Like you, I pinpointed trouble areas and eventually worked them all out.
It may be that some of the "stiffness" of the axle journals and the pivot points of the truck bolsters have "loosened up" over the years. I probably have over a hundred hours or more running time on these engines.
If your truck is not sitting with all six flanges touching evenly on a flat surface that has to mean that those stamped metal inserts have been compromised in some way. Maybe even a shock during shipping or other impact that warped the metal strip.
IF you have a drill bit just slightly larger than the bore in the side frame stamping you could slightly enlarge the hole for the center axle which may allow some "float". A reamer would be better. I'm thinking just .0015± or so enlargement.
L-L-PA-sideframe by Edmund, on Flickr
The "journal" diameter is 1.47mm (.0580") you could try a #53 drill (.0595") and see if that allows a little "slop" for the middle axle.
Just an idea. Otherwise if you can pinpoint which wheelset/axle is out of "tram" with the others you could try carefully tweaking the metal strip to correct the misalignment.
Regards, Ed
I will head down to the layout shortly.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL I have to say I have never liked cork and can't even think about the idea of putting track on foam. It just does not feel firm enough to me. I sold it for years in the hobby shop, I built display layouts for the store with it. But I have actually never built any part of any of my personal layouts using cork roadbed. As I plan the new layout I am actually considering between Homasote (since a new Homasote roadbed product may appear on the market soon) and possibly making my own wood roadbed. I know cork works well for many people, I just like a more solid feel to benchwork and trackwork. Interesting comments about cork, Sheldon. On my prior layouts, I used Woodland Scenics Foam Track Bed. I always found it to soft. I nail down my track, and the softness of foam winds up deforming the foam when nailed down. On my current layout, I went with cork. Midwest products makes 3' strips and it is firm and supportive for nailed down track. However, for curves, I bought sheets from a commercial source and cut the cork to form the 32" curved roadbed. It seems fine to me, but once ballasted I have noticed that if you remove the ballast to re-lay track as I have done on these two curves, the cork is no longer flat but a bit wavy. Not good. What other alternatives are there for roadbed? Homasote? Wood? Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I have to say I have never liked cork and can't even think about the idea of putting track on foam. It just does not feel firm enough to me. I sold it for years in the hobby shop, I built display layouts for the store with it. But I have actually never built any part of any of my personal layouts using cork roadbed. As I plan the new layout I am actually considering between Homasote (since a new Homasote roadbed product may appear on the market soon) and possibly making my own wood roadbed. I know cork works well for many people, I just like a more solid feel to benchwork and trackwork.
I have to say I have never liked cork and can't even think about the idea of putting track on foam. It just does not feel firm enough to me.
I sold it for years in the hobby shop, I built display layouts for the store with it. But I have actually never built any part of any of my personal layouts using cork roadbed.
As I plan the new layout I am actually considering between Homasote (since a new Homasote roadbed product may appear on the market soon) and possibly making my own wood roadbed.
I know cork works well for many people, I just like a more solid feel to benchwork and trackwork.
Interesting comments about cork, Sheldon.
On my prior layouts, I used Woodland Scenics Foam Track Bed. I always found it to soft. I nail down my track, and the softness of foam winds up deforming the foam when nailed down.
On my current layout, I went with cork. Midwest products makes 3' strips and it is firm and supportive for nailed down track. However, for curves, I bought sheets from a commercial source and cut the cork to form the 32" curved roadbed. It seems fine to me, but once ballasted I have noticed that if you remove the ballast to re-lay track as I have done on these two curves, the cork is no longer flat but a bit wavy. Not good. What other alternatives are there for roadbed? Homasote? Wood?
Back in the dark ages of this hobby, in the 1950's and 60's, soft woods like basswood or pine were milled into roadbed. Some modelers made their own. The Tru-Scale brand being the biggest commercial line.
They made three primary products.
Ready Track - it was wood roadbed and ties milled from a single piece of wood. The ties had milled in tieplates (oversized) which helped position the rail, rail was spiked in place with very small spikes. Track was ready go, with the tie area stained brown and the ballast slopes painted gray with some "grit" in the gray paint.
Self Gauging Roadbed - simply the product described above in kit form - raw wood milled roadbed with ties, you do the staining, spiking and ballasting.
Plain Roadbed - smooth wood roadbed with no ties for use with any brand of flex track, sectional track, or as a base to install your own hand layed ties and rail.
A simple Google search for "Tru-Scale Roadbed" will provide some images. Some can always be found on Ebay.
They also made a complete line of turnouts, crossovers, crossings, also available "Ready" or in kit form. And the roadbed came in a wide selection of curved radii sizes.
In the 70's modelers started making their own roadbed from Homasote - a messy and time consuming job.
Then the Homabed product hit the market, similar to cork, two strips already beveled, layed back to back. For curves the sections are kerfed to allow bending.
That product changed hands several times as so many products do in this hobby until it got to the last guy, Cascade - then he closed up.
Over the years and last two owners the product line expanded to include ramps, different side slope angles, different thicknesses, all in an effort to acheave better realism and improve ease of use.
As best we know Cascade closed do to personal family issues, not a lack of business or profit.
There is curently an effort underway to get a replacement product on the market.
One way or the other I will use wood or Homasote, or some of both. And my track will be glued down to avoid the possiblilty of movement.
Yes, I am completely old school on this, the proof is in the pudding. Layouts like the Severna Park Model Railroad Club are still running on track layed on homsote in the 1960's and 70's with minimal repair or maintenance. That layout has only undergone minior changes to the track plan since it was mostly completed in the early 70's.
Solid is better, and in my experiance no more noisy than all these "soft" materials.
rich ho wrote: "It has to be the front truck."
How about fixing it the "Penn Central way"?
That is, swap the front truck for the rear one...
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I still have to think there is some very minor issue with the loco, but fixed is fixed.
I still have to think there is some very minor issue with the loco, but fixed is fixed.
I am not yet declaring the problem "fixed" or "cured". Two days ago, I re-laid a 4 foot section of the "exit" curve and it seemed to eliminate derailments. But yesterday the loco was derailing at the "entry" curve, so I re-laid that section of track. Then, today, the loco was back to derailing at the "exit" curve so I added that strip of 0.040" styrene sheet. It is not the track. It has to be the front truck.
Having grown up in this hobby starting out with wood roadbed track (TruScale) and then moving to Homasote and hand layed track, and then to flex track glued to homasote roadbed and/or wood roadbed, I have to say I have never liked cork and can't even think about the idea of putting track on foam.
It just does not feel firm enough to me.
We will see.
This recent discussion reminds me of another observation that I should make. All of the derailments have occurred on either the entry curve or or the exit curve on this 12 foot section of track, and the lead truck always derails off the outer rail. For what it's worth.
selector I'm happy to see that firming up/lifting the outside rail on a curve was the cure for you, Rich. As I alluded earlier, I have solved more such problems that way than I care to remember. The give-away is that floating truck whose axle eventually lifts out of the gauge.
I'm happy to see that firming up/lifting the outside rail on a curve was the cure for you, Rich. As I alluded earlier, I have solved more such problems that way than I care to remember. The give-away is that floating truck whose axle eventually lifts out of the gauge.
I agree that the floating truck with the lifting xle is a dead giveaway. One thing that I have noticed and, to my way of thinking, pretty strange is that it is the middle wheelset on the front truck that I can slip a piece of parchment paper under. However, when the loco derails, the middle wheelset is sitting on the rails while the leading and trailing wheelsets have pivoted off the rails. Go figure.
I spent a fair amount of time today watching the performance of my troublesome PA. Interestingly, the problems are all occurring over a 12 foot section of track that forms a curve around the roundhouse at the end of a peninsula on my layout. This 12 foot section of track is essentially a pair of 32" radius curves without easements to form a semi-circle around the roundhouse.
All of my other locomotives negotiate this 12 foot section of track with absolutely no problems. This includes a second Proto 2000 PA. There are no kinks as the curves are all soldered to form smooth curves. No humps or valleys. I used a level and the track is all level with no unevenness.
What I do notice with the problem PA is a sort of "floating" of the front truck at one spot where it exits the curve. So, I re-laid that section of track which is nailed onto cork roadbed (just like the rest of the mainline). I even added a 4-inch piece of 0.040" styrene sheet at the exit point of the curve to provide a more solid base between the track and the roadbed. That seems to have ended the derailments even at top speeds.
Tomorrow, I will check some more before taking apart the front truck. This has been very frustrating, and I am just spending too much time on this one loco.
Time for an Old Fashioned, eh Ed?
gmpullman Once those four tabs are unlatched at each end of the truck you can use your smallest, slotted screw driver and push it into the slight gap at the end of the gear case. The PAs aren't too aggressive with the latch pins. I've had some that are very tricky, like the newer Athearn Genesis in that the catches relatch and you have to keep them apart while you pry up. It is easy once you've done a few. You did the Geeps OK, right?
Once those four tabs are unlatched at each end of the truck you can use your smallest, slotted screw driver and push it into the slight gap at the end of the gear case. The PAs aren't too aggressive with the latch pins. I've had some that are very tricky, like the newer Athearn Genesis in that the catches relatch and you have to keep them apart while you pry up.
It is easy once you've done a few. You did the Geeps OK, right?
snjroy Ed, your efforts to post pictures add so much value to this forum. Thanks! Simon
Ed, your efforts to post pictures add so much value to this forum. Thanks!
Simon
Now that I've fixed a few cell phones for people, I have a small collection of spudgers which will come in handy for model work. Both the mini pry bar type and the ones that look more like guitar picks. Not to mention REALLY tiny screwdrivers, some are actually Philips head and usable, they're not all those wacky pentalobe screws. Each screen kit comes with a set of tools and while they aren't exactly top quality, but they are trashed afte one use.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hopefully. I don't trust any of them. I can't believe my web host is still doing this, it's really a side business for him and he makes very little money (considering most people have his cheapest plan, I have the second level which is still only $5/mo). But, the same pictures on my web site are in a mirror on my local machine (which is how they get there - I edit the web pages and pictures on my local mirror and then upload them). But what if my computer dies? Well, it's backed up to my server on redundant disks - so it would take lots of failures to lose my local copies - the drive in my desktop, and then two drives in the server. But wait - that's not all - I also back the server up to a cloud backup service. The odds of both my web host and the cloud company disappearing, as well as there being 3 unnoticed drive failures in my house, are pretty slim. Of if my house gets swallowed in a giant sinkhole (don't laugh, it's happened around here! But not up on the hill where my house is), the chance of both the web host and the cloud backup company closing shop is also pretty unlikely.
snjroyEd, your efforts to post pictures add so much value to this forum. Thanks!
And thank you, as well, Simon. Hopefully Flickr will be around longer than Photobucket. When I find my old threads that have links to Photobucket my photos have a gray banner across them
As I come across those I replace them with the Flickr links. There are so many "lost" threads out there because the photo hosts have left town
Glad to be of help and as Wayne often mentions, having a visual guide can be invaluable.
richhotrainIs it that most modelers break these when they try to pry the sideframes off without removing the bottom cover?
Yes.
It is easy once you've done a few. You did the Geeps OK, right? These aren't much different other than the latches are pretty much hidden.
Good Luck. (I'm turning in for a couple hours' of ZZZs) Ed
I use a small bladed screwdriver to pry up the truck cover. I have a dedicated old screwdriver that I rounded the edges on. Sometimes the sharp corner of a screw driver can mess with a gear tooth a bit on the more difficult pry ups.
And Eds photo of the bolster means that I said it wrong in my previous post. The frame has the pin and the truck has the hole, at least with that loco. Burrs on either the pin or the hole, or debris on the bolster or frame, can keep the truck from seating correctly in the hole despite the worm gear cover still being attached.
- Douglas
I hadn't even noticed the crack until I was editing the photo.
L-L_PA-crack by Edmund, on Flickr
This particular PA has two cracked gears. I never ran into that before. I've got eight engines on the layout. I'll have to look at them later tonight.
Here's a crop of the original photo without the green arrows:
L-L-PA-unretouched by Edmund, on Flickr
Unfortunately there's a big piece of lint there
Ed
Cheers, Ed
rrinker Looks like there is a little chunk missign out of the gear that is cracking, right at the edge where the crack is, like something chipped out a bit and started the crack - maybe it even happened during assembly and it's been that way all along.
Looks like there is a little chunk missign out of the gear that is cracking, right at the edge where the crack is, like something chipped out a bit and started the crack - maybe it even happened during assembly and it's been that way all along.
Great photos and explanations, Ed. I can only thank you profusely.
Any tips on how to remove the cover plate without breaking the pins?
Is it that most modelers break these when they try to pry the sideframes off without removing the bottom cover?
richhotrain I think that I know exactly what you are talking about, the four clips that secure the bottom plate the truck assembly.
Yes, here's a look: (intermediate gears removed)
L-L_PA-truck-open by Edmund, on Flickr
C= Crack developing in axle gear (Never happens on PAs, right?)
E= Engagement eye x4. Square pins on cover plate engage into these to retain the sideframe. These, and the pins are what the uninitiated will break off.
T= Cleverly-designed side-thrust limiters.
L= Latch engagement points x6
Also take note of how axle ends (journals) engage the metal strip welded to the back-side of the side frame.
L-L_PA-gear-cover by Edmund, on Flickr
Once you've become familiar with the Life-Like designs you can field-strip a loco in about six minutes (I've got it down to 4:30!)
Good Luck, Ed
Ed, thanks for that additional info. I think that I know exactly what you are talking about, the four clips that secure the bottom plate the truck assembly. I am always super careful when removing those types of parts. Reminds me of the process to remove the gear box cover on the old Life Like Geeps to replace the cracked gears.
Hi, Rich
The four doohickeys in my photo arent the ones easily broken. The ones that are a bit fragile are the ones that protrude up from the bottom cover and engage the "locking eyes" that come in from the backs of the sideframes.
Most modelers break these when they try to pry the sideframes off without removing the bottom cover. THAT's the trick.
Sounds more complicated than it really is. I show the end clips (2 on each end of the truck) "tucked" under the cover so that when you pry the cover off these are already out of the way.
This is a better system than the E7 and E8 trucks where they used a big staple to hold the sideframes together
I'll see if I have a photo showing the engagement square pins I'm refering to.
gmpullman There are four square pins that engage the tabs (eyes) on the side frames which hold them in place. These pins are easily broken.
There are four square pins that engage the tabs (eyes) on the side frames which hold them in place. These pins are easily broken.