I run a few Bachmann sound values and had two identical steam, first ran perfect, when the second one came it had issues, turned out to be the wires needed to be tucked up, a common Bachmann issue.
Water Level Route Glad to hear you found the issue Rich. What a frustrating journey. Bet you are glad it's over!
Glad to hear you found the issue Rich. What a frustrating journey. Bet you are glad it's over!
Yes, I am ecstatic.
Rich
Alton Junction
Mike
There is a currently running thread titled, Will The Glitches Never End, which has prompted me to update this thread on my Proto 2000 PA problem with derailments.
In desperation, I finally broke down and swapped the front and back trucks of the problem PA. No easy task because I basically had rewire the locomotive in the process.
The problem PA now runs flawlessly without any derailments. But, in my opinion, that doesn't mean that the front truck was the problem. In fact, upon close observation, I could find no sign of warping or any other issue that might have caused the derailments.
What I have concluded is that the wiring was the cause of the derailments. When I began to remove the front truck, I noticed that the power wire connected to the truck was wedged between the part that holds the engineer's and the conductor's seat and the frame itself.
As a result, even the slightest dip in the track kept the front wheelset from holding down on the rails at the point of the dip. The dip itself was not noticeable to the naked eye, and a level failed to detect the dip. But, the wedged wire held the truck as if it were fixed in place, such that it could not follow the dip. Problem solved!
richhotrain What I find most perplexing about this entire issue is that I have two identical Life Like Proto 2000 Pa locomotives. One PA successfully runs in both directions around both of the double mainlines. But the other PA fails the test. At one point, the problem PA derailed in several spots on two semicircular curves. One by one, I wound up relaying track over those spots. That left one spot yesterday, so I wound up relaying track over that spot. All of that relaid track would suggest that the track, not the PA, was the problem. But, recall, all 53 other locos including one other PA had no problems negotiating any part of the double mainlines before I ever relaid any track. So, it has to be the one PA. To save my sanity, I should probably replace the front truck on the problem PA. Or, banish the problem PA to the Island of Broken Locomotives. Rich
What I find most perplexing about this entire issue is that I have two identical Life Like Proto 2000 Pa locomotives. One PA successfully runs in both directions around both of the double mainlines. But the other PA fails the test.
At one point, the problem PA derailed in several spots on two semicircular curves. One by one, I wound up relaying track over those spots. That left one spot yesterday, so I wound up relaying track over that spot.
All of that relaid track would suggest that the track, not the PA, was the problem. But, recall, all 53 other locos including one other PA had no problems negotiating any part of the double mainlines before I ever relaid any track.
So, it has to be the one PA. To save my sanity, I should probably replace the front truck on the problem PA. Or, banish the problem PA to the Island of Broken Locomotives.
Way back in July 1963 Model Railroader, Linn Westcott was researching derailments, and how to prevent them.
Westcott ended up marking the track where more than one derailment occurred. If it got a third derailment, it was "out of order" until repaired - which puts a lot of pressure on fixing track.
If the same car or locomotive derailed in more than one place on the layout, it was tagged and removed from the layout until repaired. Puts a lot of pressure on fixing locmotives and rolling stock.
Usually the problem is a combination of "OK" track and "OK" wheels and couplers that mostly work but have a couple of deadly combinations. Your one PA has problems, but it served the purpose of finding problems in the trackwork. Three axle trucks are more likely to be problemmatic than 2 axle trucks. All 3 sets of wheels have to ride correctly, with the middle axle also needing some axial play on sharper curves.
Good luck, and getting rid of (or replacing) your problem child is always an alternative.
Fred W
mvlandsw I had a Proto E8 and a Proto SD9 that were derailing at two different switches. I could find nothing wrong with either the locos or the switches. I finally discovered that the trouble was with the track about 15 feet before the switches. The six axle trucks have enough side play in the axles that the lead axle could derail but the loco continued following the track guided by the other two axles in the truck until the switch was encountered and the loco went sideways. One location had tight gage and the other had a cross level problem where hand laid track joined flex track. Mark Vinski
I had a Proto E8 and a Proto SD9 that were derailing at two different switches. I could find nothing wrong with either the locos or the switches. I finally discovered that the trouble was with the track about 15 feet before the switches. The six axle trucks have enough side play in the axles that the lead axle could derail but the loco continued following the track guided by the other two axles in the truck until the switch was encountered and the loco went sideways. One location had tight gage and the other had a cross level problem where hand laid track joined flex track.
Mark Vinski
richhotrainSeems to me to suggest the opposite. That center wheelset is not sitting on the countertop. It is sitting up too high compared to the leading and trailing wheelsets. So, the scrap of parchment paper slides under the wheel when it shouldn't.
Had a feeling that was going to cause confusion. I meant "high" relative to a plane set to a line between the first and third wheelset. Or said another way,... oh drat, that will still cause confusion. You know what I mean...the truck will rock on the center axle. Friend of mine had a bunch of Athearn SD70Ms (?) that all rocked across that center wheelset.
N-Scale turnouts in PECO code 55 are 5/8 of an inch too short for yard ladders
A great help in bulletproof track work
I posted a longer hands on experience with this but got deleted
TF
maxman richhotrain maxman Have you tried putting the loco on a flat surface, such as a scrap piece of plate glass? Should be easy to check if one or the other truck rocks back and forth about the center axle. Oh yeah, I did that early on using a piece of thin parchment paper on a flat white countertop surface. The parchment paper slipped under the center wheelset of the front truck. Rich If the paper slipped under the center wheelset, sort of eliminates the possibility of that wheel set being high, does it not?
richhotrain maxman Have you tried putting the loco on a flat surface, such as a scrap piece of plate glass? Should be easy to check if one or the other truck rocks back and forth about the center axle. Oh yeah, I did that early on using a piece of thin parchment paper on a flat white countertop surface. The parchment paper slipped under the center wheelset of the front truck. Rich
maxman
Have you tried putting the loco on a flat surface, such as a scrap piece of plate glass? Should be easy to check if one or the other truck rocks back and forth about the center axle.
Have you tried putting the loco on a flat surface, such as a scrap piece of plate glass?
Should be easy to check if one or the other truck rocks back and forth about the center axle.
Oh yeah, I did that early on using a piece of thin parchment paper on a flat white countertop surface. The parchment paper slipped under the center wheelset of the front truck.
rrebell The gauge is tight, still in gauge but tight. There is a certain amount of slop in gauges (I use ribbin rail ones). It is not much but have learned that is the most likely cause of riding up.
The gauge is tight, still in gauge but tight. There is a certain amount of slop in gauges (I use ribbin rail ones). It is not much but have learned that is the most likely cause of riding up.
richhotrain selector On my most-imaged layout from back in 2006-2012, I had one section that wouldn't work for a new BLI Hybrid TTT-6 UP 2-10-2. All other locomotives were good on it, but not this one new locomotive. I was careful to eliminate the locomotive, perhaps the obvious choice for the real problem, so that left the tracks. I kept lifting the outer rail on a curve until the locomotive ran through it without derailing. By then, the ballast was a mess. So, I took up the rail after softening and scraping away the ballast, rejigged the roadbed at the bad spot to keep the outer rail at the correct height, and then reballasted. No more problems, thankfully the other locomotives didn't start acting up due to the changes. This was a post by Selector on another thread, but it prompted me to go back and look at the performance of my other locomotives on the PA trouble spots. This was actually a lesson that I learned long ago. Find your worst performing locomotive and use it to final test your track work. As the theory goes, if your worst performing locomotive can travel the mainlines without derailment, then all of your other locomotives should be able to make the run as well without derailment. In my case, every other one of my locomotives runs flawlessly across my entire 165 foot double mainline. But, as of yesterday, the troublesome PA was still experiencing its front truck lifting off the rails in one final spot, a 32" radius curve with an easement on both ends of the curve. So, I relaid the entire curve, taking great care to keep it level and without kinks. I am still not ready to call the problem solved, but the PA did make it through the curve, several times, without so much as a hiccup. No derailments! I still think that there is some type of problem with that front truck, warped, whatever. So, I will continue to keep an eye on it. Rich
selector On my most-imaged layout from back in 2006-2012, I had one section that wouldn't work for a new BLI Hybrid TTT-6 UP 2-10-2. All other locomotives were good on it, but not this one new locomotive. I was careful to eliminate the locomotive, perhaps the obvious choice for the real problem, so that left the tracks. I kept lifting the outer rail on a curve until the locomotive ran through it without derailing. By then, the ballast was a mess. So, I took up the rail after softening and scraping away the ballast, rejigged the roadbed at the bad spot to keep the outer rail at the correct height, and then reballasted. No more problems, thankfully the other locomotives didn't start acting up due to the changes.
On my most-imaged layout from back in 2006-2012, I had one section that wouldn't work for a new BLI Hybrid TTT-6 UP 2-10-2. All other locomotives were good on it, but not this one new locomotive. I was careful to eliminate the locomotive, perhaps the obvious choice for the real problem, so that left the tracks. I kept lifting the outer rail on a curve until the locomotive ran through it without derailing. By then, the ballast was a mess. So, I took up the rail after softening and scraping away the ballast, rejigged the roadbed at the bad spot to keep the outer rail at the correct height, and then reballasted. No more problems, thankfully the other locomotives didn't start acting up due to the changes.
This was a post by Selector on another thread, but it prompted me to go back and look at the performance of my other locomotives on the PA trouble spots.
This was actually a lesson that I learned long ago. Find your worst performing locomotive and use it to final test your track work. As the theory goes, if your worst performing locomotive can travel the mainlines without derailment, then all of your other locomotives should be able to make the run as well without derailment.
In my case, every other one of my locomotives runs flawlessly across my entire 165 foot double mainline. But, as of yesterday, the troublesome PA was still experiencing its front truck lifting off the rails in one final spot, a 32" radius curve with an easement on both ends of the curve. So, I relaid the entire curve, taking great care to keep it level and without kinks.
I am still not ready to call the problem solved, but the PA did make it through the curve, several times, without so much as a hiccup. No derailments! I still think that there is some type of problem with that front truck, warped, whatever. So, I will continue to keep an eye on it.
maxman Have you tried putting the loco on a flat surface, such as a scrap piece of plate glass? Should be easy to check if one or the other truck rocks back and forth about the center axle.
snjroy Maybe you can find a donor engine and swap the front truck. Unfortunately, these probably don't come by very often on Ebay... Maybe the problem is with the wheels/axles, which I think you could find a replacement at NWSL. Have you tried swaping the middle wheels between the front and back trucks? I must say that your story makes me worry about my own trackwork. I would not not qualify it as bullet-proof, although I rarely get derailments. I have bought some engines in the past that have shown flaws in the trackwork that I had never noticed. I don't have any scenery or ballast done yet, so fixing it hasn't been a problem. I'm just worried that when I do get around to getting the scenery done, I may have problems with future engines that will require scenery surgery... Oh well, I guess it's part of the fun.
Maybe you can find a donor engine and swap the front truck. Unfortunately, these probably don't come by very often on Ebay... Maybe the problem is with the wheels/axles, which I think you could find a replacement at NWSL. Have you tried swaping the middle wheels between the front and back trucks?
I must say that your story makes me worry about my own trackwork. I would not not qualify it as bullet-proof, although I rarely get derailments. I have bought some engines in the past that have shown flaws in the trackwork that I had never noticed. I don't have any scenery or ballast done yet, so fixing it hasn't been a problem. I'm just worried that when I do get around to getting the scenery done, I may have problems with future engines that will require scenery surgery... Oh well, I guess it's part of the fun.
So far, I have not swapped any wheelsets. I could, but I am more inclined to think that the truck and/or sideframes are warped.
As for "bullet proof" track, I put those two words in the title to the thread with tongue in cheek. Of the 54 locos that I own, steamers, 4-axle diesels, and 6-axle diesels, only the one PA, a 6-axle diesel, derails.
So, is my track work "bullet proof"? Perhaps. If the PA truck is at fault, then I will conclude that my track work is, indeed, "bullet proof", since the truck is at fault. We shall see.
After nearly 3 years of building and detailing this layout, I am ready to fully operate it. But, I first need to decide on the future of this problem PA loco.
richhotrain (...) I am still not ready to call the problem solved, but the PA did make it through the curve, several times, without so much as a hiccup. No derailments! I still think that there is some type of problem with that front truck, warped, whatever. So, I will continue to keep an eye on it. Rich
(...)
Simon
ATLANTIC CENTRALI have never sold a piece of used model train track, turnout or otherwise, nor have I ever considered the idea. I have never salvaged a piece of track from a layout after that track was ballasted. It dawned on me this morning why I never considered selling used track! Because I have never considered buying used track! But then again, I buy very, very little of anything that is truely "used", like in a loco that actually spend measurable time operating on a layout. Sure, I have bought lots of NOS, or got test run and sat on a shelf for 10 years. But the obviously "used" stuff, I skip right over.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain I'm not opposed to soldering turnouts in place, but turnouts are expensive and soldered rails reduce their resale value unless you can completely clean off the solder. Rich That is an interesting view? I have never sold a piece of used model train track, turnout or otherwise, nor have I ever considered the idea. I have never salvaged a piece of track from a layout after that track was ballasted. When I demolished my old layout, I was able to salvage a lot of lightly ballasted flex track from my yards which I cleaned up and sold for $1.50 a stick on eBay. I also sold a bunch of Atlas Custom Line turnouts, both Code 83 and Code 100 for $5.00 to $7.50 per turnout depending upon condition. None of the turnouts had solder on the rails. The buyers were thrilled. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain I'm not opposed to soldering turnouts in place, but turnouts are expensive and soldered rails reduce their resale value unless you can completely clean off the solder. Rich That is an interesting view? I have never sold a piece of used model train track, turnout or otherwise, nor have I ever considered the idea. I have never salvaged a piece of track from a layout after that track was ballasted.
richhotrain I'm not opposed to soldering turnouts in place, but turnouts are expensive and soldered rails reduce their resale value unless you can completely clean off the solder. Rich
I'm not opposed to soldering turnouts in place, but turnouts are expensive and soldered rails reduce their resale value unless you can completely clean off the solder.
That is an interesting view?
I have never sold a piece of used model train track, turnout or otherwise, nor have I ever considered the idea.
I have never salvaged a piece of track from a layout after that track was ballasted.
When I demolished my old layout, I was able to salvage a lot of lightly ballasted flex track from my yards which I cleaned up and sold for $1.50 a stick on eBay. I also sold a bunch of Atlas Custom Line turnouts, both Code 83 and Code 100 for $5.00 to $7.50 per turnout depending upon condition. None of the turnouts had solder on the rails. The buyers were thrilled.
It dawned on me this morning why I never considered selling used track!
Because I have never considered buying used track!
But then again, I buy very, very little of anything that is truely "used", like in a loco that actually spend measurable time operating on a layout.
Sure, I have bought lots of NOS, or got test run and sat on a shelf for 10 years. But the obviously "used" stuff, I skip right over.
Sheldon
mvlandsw I have seen some Athearn six axle trucks where the center axle is not in the same plane as the outer axles. The truck will rock on the center axle causing the lead axle to raise off the rail leading to derailments. The long wheel base of the PA truck can cause similiar problems on even a very slight hump in the track. I've thought of but never tried using a slightly smaller diameter wheelset in the center axle position. Maerk Vinski
I have seen some Athearn six axle trucks where the center axle is not in the same plane as the outer axles. The truck will rock on the center axle causing the lead axle to raise off the rail leading to derailments. The long wheel base of the PA truck can cause similiar problems on even a very slight hump in the track.
I've thought of but never tried using a slightly smaller diameter wheelset in the center axle position.
Maerk Vinski
I'm now waiting to see if the axle-cocking problem recurs in time, perhaps with some combination of track curvature and applied torque.
That should be the whole of the immediate derailing issue ... at least, the part that isn't due to some other PA-related issue we haven't analyzed or he hasn't solved.
rrebell Back to original, how about pulling a train and a certain order of cars derails the engine but not another order, found no defects in the cars.
Back to original, how about pulling a train and a certain order of cars derails the engine but not another order, found no defects in the cars.
I have salvaged raw rail, both from hand layed track and flex track.
I have salvaged turnouts from staging areas and areas not yet ballasted.
I glue my track down, with real adhesive, not painters caulk, but I don't glue the turnouts down. I do solder the rail joints to the turnouts, just like I solder all the rail joints within each signal/control block.
I have never even tried to salvage glued down track, unballasted or ballasted, with the stuff I use, it's not coming up in one piece.......
On the old layout, I did have some straight hidden staging yards that I nailed down rather than glued down, I did salvage that track, but clipped the soldered rail joints with cutters. I will clean them up as I reuse them.
My years of experiance in this hobby has me very sold on the idea of rock solid trackwork, and my experiance on the layouts of friends who used foam, cork, and other soft/lightweight materials has done nothing to change my mind.
After hand laying track and/or using Tru-Scale wood roadbed track for many years, I was excited when Atlas introduced the code 83 line, and Homabed became available. But when I read my first article about gluing down flex track, that was the icing on the cake, rock solid track like hand layed track, but faster and with better detail.