N gets harder and harder as one ages. I switched from N to HO for that reason. It's hard to squeeze all you desires into a 4x8 with any realistic look in my opinion. Jim K
I'm looking at two small modern tram layouts I've been working on concurrently, one in N (48" x 12" dogbone), the other in HO (30" x 20" simple loop). To me it's a larger piece of landscape with less detail in N vs. smaller piece of landscape with larger detail in HO. And I'm drawn more to the HO's concentrated scene.I've also bought some Kato N Unitrack, locomotives, and cars to set up on our coffee table with my grandson to run longer freight and passenger trains.So I'd ask, are you more interested in running long coal trains on broad curves or in having detailed coal facilities with short trains? I'd pick N for the former, HO for the latter.
Hi, there are some really great N scale plans. I built an N scale on an area of 2'x'4'. I wanted something portable. It has a mountain, 3 bridges, crossing tracks and a small town.
N scale certainly enables a lot of action in a small space. However, as i too am in my 40s amd gettomg older I too am now looking at building a larger HO scale layout.
When I built my N scale layout or the rolling stock, except for one set was second hand. I saved a lot of money there.
Anyway this is a great hobby and it does not have to be overly expensive.
The layout shown on YouTube makes a good display layout but would get boring fast as an operations based layout. Its basically two independent loops, each with a passing track to park one train while another runs the loop. No industries to switch and the trains don't go anywhere.
This is exactly why the Port Hueneme/Ventura County Railroad would work so well as a 4' by 8' layout. The prototype track plan includes a full loop that can be used to run trains as a display or just train watch. However, the harbor, Navy SeaBee base, Union Pacific interchange and auto storage lots offer lots of switching meaning operating sessions involving friends would be possible, too. Like the prototype, the model VCR trains have a real reason to run from the harbor to the UP interchange, and back again. Any layout based on the VCR track plan would prove interesting for a long time.
I would recommend NOT running trains along a high shelf, especially in HO or N scale! I tried this in my son's bedroom years ago in HO scale. Although the layout ran well and even included a few sidings, spurs and a yard, visual access was a problem from the start. My son and I quickly lost interest in this layout. The smaller scale trains are just too difficult to see on such a shelf unless you make the shelf of transparent material. Any such high shelf layout should be approached as display-only and should use only O scale or larger trains.
Hornblower
OldManHobbies Yep, I'm about an hour south of Pittsburgh.... nearly as far south as you can get in Pa. The Hobby shop is "Get A Hobby" in Uniontown, Pa. Their website isn't that great, but I know the owner and staff and they are really good people.
Yep, I'm about an hour south of Pittsburgh.... nearly as far south as you can get in Pa. The Hobby shop is "Get A Hobby" in Uniontown, Pa. Their website isn't that great, but I know the owner and staff and they are really good people.
Not familiar with that particular store. I grew up on the other side of Pittsburgh and live in DC now, so I've stopped in almost every shop between here and there.
ROBERT PETRICKThis idea has two other benefits . . . 1) Reclining in the LazyBoy recliner and watching TV, and 2) walking down stairs. Robert
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
OldManHobbiesthis video shows a setup that I really like and find very pleasing to watch.
Hi OldManHobbies,
I agree that the layout is pleasing to watch. The question is how long will it be enjoyable to watch before it becomes a bit boring? I don't see a lot of operating potential. There is a double track spur running into the center of the layout, and there is a two track yard, but those only offer limited opportunities for doing some switching.
I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the track plan at all, and it would certainly be a good place to start, but maybe keep in mind what you might want to be doing in the future in terms of switching.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
NittanyLion OldManHobbies I do have a local hobby shop that has a small train room, but their train veteran is no longer there from what I understand. Are you still in SWPA? If so, which shop is this?
OldManHobbies I do have a local hobby shop that has a small train room, but their train veteran is no longer there from what I understand.
I do have a local hobby shop that has a small train room, but their train veteran is no longer there from what I understand.
Are you still in SWPA? If so, which shop is this?
I'm not sure if it's okay to post a like for Youtube here or not, but this video shows a setup that I really like and find very pleasing to watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxA8C0joWqk
I wouldn't need as much elevation for what I'm thinking, and realistically, around here, they cut out a channel in the hills a lot more often then they dug tunnels, so I'd like to stay as true to that as possible. I do really like the fine detail of the HO scale, but like the "whole picture" view of the N scale. I watched a video showing the differences in scale appearance, on things like the iron grab bars (forgive me if they have a proper name) on the front of a locomotive. The HO had them and were in color, where the N did not. Small vents were open screen on the HO where the N was just more or less molded plastic. Not really knowing much about trains myself, I don't know that I'd be missing those fine details on the N as I don't really know about them.
I tend to jump into hobbies with both feet... and I've already thought about... .what if I use a 4x8 but then maybe run an elevated shelf around the walls of my finished basement.... I'd only need a 6-8" shelf.... and that wouldn't take up my wfie's precious floor space....
Hi OMH and welcome.
I chose HO for visual reasons and I would find detail modelling more difficult in N gauge. + in HO you are already in a Helicopter or the far-side of a field, in N that illusion is even greater.
It easy to regard N as half-size of HO. It half the Length, a quarter the Area and an eighth the Volume. Out of these it is the obviously the Area that counts for the most.
When I look at my layout, N would have been far more suitable for what I am trying to achieve and I still remain in doubt - because I have never modelled in N-gauge.
As has been mentioned, take a good look before you decide. When I started in 1968, British OO was not very good (when compared to Athearn Bluebox) British N gauge was a Joke and it put me off for life. Thanks mainly to Bachmann, British N is now very good.
When I saw my first USA N gauge layout (2016) my jaw hit the deck. It was superb. Had I seen it before I started in HO - my layout might just as be in N
I hope this helps, because it can be a bit of a dilemma, before or after taking the plunge. Paul
"It's the South Shore Line, Jim - but not as we know it".
OldManHobbies I've looked at some DCC starter sets, but given I already know I want some specific locomotives, I may just piece what I want together.
As I previously recommended, go with the starter system of your choice, then add a WiFi module so that anyone with a smart phone can use it as a wireless throttle. Throttles are expensive, especially wireless throttles, but a WiFi module is usually less expensive than a single throttle. Your starter system will come with a throttle so that throttle can be used to perform any programming you need.
I have an 18' by 19' double deck HO scale layout powered by an MRC Prodigy (not squared) DCC system. I have two tethered throttles and two wireless throttles. I was looking to purchase additional wireless throttles when the MRC 1530 WiFi module was released. The "street" price at that time was at least $50 less than a single MRC wireless throttle and the MRC WiFI module will allow up to eight (8) smart devices to be used as wireless throttles simultaneously. It works as advertized. I see that Model Train Stuff still sells the MRC 1530 for $85 which is definitely less than most throttles. The other plus to the MRC WiFi module is that it is designed to be a stand-alone WiFi network (no computer or internet access is needed) although MRC does offer a computer interface module if desired. An MRC Prodigy Express with a WiFI module would probably be all you'd need for a 4' by 8' layout in either scale.
Digitrax also offers a WiFi module that will work with up to four (4) smart throttles but I understand it requires the use of a computer. A Digitrax Zephyr with a WiFi module (and computer) would be another DCC system option.
ROBERT PETRICK Medina1128 wjstix BTW don't worry about the "old eyes need big trains" argument. If you have trouble seeing the trains, go to your ophthalmologist and get a pair of "computer glasses". They work great for model railroading. I saw a post a few years ago and what he did was have his glasses made with the lenses upside down, meaning he had the bifocal part of the lenses on top, instead of on the bottom. This idea has two other benefits . . . 1) Reclining in the LazyBoy recliner and watching TV, and 2) walking down stairs. Robert
Medina1128 wjstix BTW don't worry about the "old eyes need big trains" argument. If you have trouble seeing the trains, go to your ophthalmologist and get a pair of "computer glasses". They work great for model railroading. I saw a post a few years ago and what he did was have his glasses made with the lenses upside down, meaning he had the bifocal part of the lenses on top, instead of on the bottom.
wjstix BTW don't worry about the "old eyes need big trains" argument. If you have trouble seeing the trains, go to your ophthalmologist and get a pair of "computer glasses". They work great for model railroading.
I saw a post a few years ago and what he did was have his glasses made with the lenses upside down, meaning he had the bifocal part of the lenses on top, instead of on the bottom.
This idea has two other benefits . . .
1) Reclining in the LazyBoy recliner and watching TV, and 2) walking down stairs.
Robert
Thank you all so very much! Something that a few of you mentioned that I hadn't really thought of is kind of doing a mock up of what I want. I think that may help me decide which scale will give me what I want... what I have in my head. I may pickup a sheet of plywood and sketch out in pencil some of my ideas. Since I know the radius of the turns each scale can handle, I can roughly determine if I can pull it off with HO scale, or if it would need to be N. I guess I will start there.
A few other things to note.... I do plan on starting with DCC from the beginning. I understand the cost is a tad higher, but I like the benefits and it just seems like a better option for the long run. I've looked at some DCC starter sets, but given I already know I want some specific locomotives, I may just piece what I want together. I do have a local hobby shop that has a small train room, but their train veteran is no longer there from what I understand. I plan on stopping by and getting a feel for their knowledge and stock/supplies. That may help me decide as well.
I built my 4×9 HO layout at age 60 and my N door layout at 65-67, I'm now 73. In my experience you need good light most of all and suitable glasses for close work as others have noted. I don't find working on N scale a problem but I personally pefer HO as I like kits and there aren't any rolling stock kits in N. I also prefer the way a HO train performs, it rolls far smoother. Just due to the weight. I also like steam and recently bought a few in brass for the detail and wanting specific models of CN steam.
I would suggest you buy a few pieces in both scales to help you decide.
CN Charlie
I hope my experience helps you decide.
LINK to SNSR Blog
wjstixBTW don't worry about the "old eyes need big trains" argument. If you have trouble seeing the trains, go to your ophthalmologist and get a pair of "computer glasses". They work great for model railroading.
I saw a post a few years ago and what he did was have his glasses made with the lenses upside down, meaning he had the bifocal part of the lenses on top, instead of on the bottom.I was around 50-something when I started working on my layout. My eyes weren't as sharp as they used to be and for me, it was hard enough dealing with HO details, let alone in N-scale.
This layout started out in a 10x12' space, but then I moved to an apartment with a basement. It has since grown to 27x29'.
If you wear bifocals, go to your eye doctor or opthamologist and ask about getting a pair of "computer glasses" made. My eye Dr. does them in two versions, six-foot and twenty-foot. Basically bifocals have about 2/3rds 'distance' focus and 1/3 'close up' focus. Computer glasses have a large section in the middle that's set at about 2-3 foot distance - like the distance to a typical computer monitor. I was having a hard time a while back with model railroading, as it was hard to see the models clearly on the layout unless I was right on top of them or they were far away. With my 'twenty foot' computer glasses, it's now very clear and MUCH more enjoyable to work / operate the layout...and it was much cheaper than getting rid of my HO stuff to go to a larger scale!
With age, the eyes aren't what they used to be and the fingers aren't so nimble. And the patience can grow a little shorter, too.
For that reason, I'd suggest HO. Easier to work on, easier to see, etc.
Trains that you can enjoy without a magnifying glass are more fun...
HO scale.
If you want to run Southwestern Pennsylvania traffic in a "my lifetime" era, Bowser and their huge catalog of road names for their 100 ton hoppers is going to come in handy.
Welcome aboard. I am in HO, just so you know where I am coming from. I think you have a good grasp of the differences between and advantages of each scale. I won't rehash all that. I like building models, kit bashing, scratch building. This is easier in HO where everthing is larger and small detail parts like grab irons are big enough to see and insert.
4 by 8 is a good starter layout size because plywood comes 4 by 8. Stick a couple of saw horses under a sheet of plywood and your benchwork is done. Homasote, an insulating board, comes in 4 by 8 sheets too. Homasote takes track nails nicely and deadens the sound of running trains. It's available in the north, hard to find in the south. Homasote needs plywood underneath it to prevent sagging.
Think about running a view block down the center of your 4 by 8, dividing the layout into two scenes and preventing people from seeing the far side of the layout, which increases realism. Think about having a deep river valley, with your main line carried across it on a mighty bridge. Avoid running straight track right down the edge of the table, it just emphases the edge of the layout (edge of the world). Put some slight curves into the track so it doesn't line up with the table edge.
Lights in structures and rolling stock look really cool after dark.
Paint can go a long way toward making it look real. Paint the glossy plastic trucks either rust red or grimey black. Paint the undersides of rolling stock with dark gray auto primer from a rattle can. Paint canvas roofs on rolling stock (cabeese, heavy weight passenger cars) with the same stuff. Too glossy low end cars look much better with a coat of Testor's DullCote.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
kasskabooseThis is a tastes great v. less filling debate (remember those?)
Now the debate is Left Twix vs. Right Twix!
-Kevin
Living the dream.
This is a tastes great v. less filling debate (remember those?). To help you decide further, perhaps join a local NMRA group or ask at a local hobby shop about anyone in the hobby. It's much easier to see and talk to folks locally b/c having a mentor who can visit your layout as it advances is invaluable.
Just a thought.
Just because the Household Authorities say there is a 8x4 area, who says you have to fill it?
If your negotiating skills are good tell the H. A. you will only take up 8x2. Once the layout is built; small maybe, but (and a big but) the H.A. see that you mean business and the whole idea is not 'on a whim'.
8x2 is a lot easy to work with than 8x4. (Stretching over if a derailment for instance.)
Now comes the negotiating. Extending the 8x2 to 12x2 (or 8 x 2 plus 4x1). No tight curves. Over time keep negotiating for more length of space. even six inches wide can have a railroad. Many a classic layout started very small.
In the future. "Hey have you seen OldManHobbies layout? It's round the room. Some parts only six inches wide. Fantastic!"
Just a thought!
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
I just wanted to add a few thoughts regarding the visibility of N scale versus HO scale. Yes, it can be difficult to read the road numbers on N scale rolling stock, especially when one compares N scale to HO scale. However, the owners of the N scale layouts I operate on have found it easier to provide a photo of each car on its car card so that the operators look for a car to match the photo rather than even attempt to read the road number. This tends to reduce the need to actually read the road numbers to instances where cars with similar paint schemes are at the same industry or track section. Since his loco fleet has multiple units in the same paint livery, one of the N scale layout owners places straight pins with road number flags in front of each staged loco so that operators only have to read the flag to know they have the right loco. You can also hang magnifying glasses on coiled tethers on each layout face to make it easier to read/see small details without the magnifying glasses walking away.
If you are nearing, or are already at, the time in your life where you need bifocals, you're also at the time of life when your pupils have become less able to relax and to widen, or dilate, when light conditions are low. So, you will find it a struggle to see your models in any scale well unless you are willing to bring a LOT of light to bear on your layout space. The smaller the scale, the smaller the details, and the smaller the details, the less capable are your eyes to seeing the level of definition and resolution that you had when you were south of 20 years of age.
A great many people struggle over this dilemma. Many in their 60's decide to change scales and they rise to S or even to O gauge because they no longer have the dexterity or the visual acuity to enjoy what they have had for years.
If your space is truly limited, and you have little flexibility or good will to expand, probably N scale is your best bet to get an interesting track plan that won't bore you in a few weeks. However, no matter which scale it is to be, you can do a lot of learning. You can hone your skills and transfer them to any scale when the time comes. So, don't labour too long on this decision; pick something that will work in terms of space and availabilty of materials and rolling stock, and get busy.
One bit of advice: if you are capable of it, draw up a scale plan with correct turnout lengths and frog angles, and use a compass or protractor to draw true scale curves. This will save you a great deal of aggravation later.
OldManHobbies Plus, I'm not going to get any younger, and not sure if the N scale would be hard to see/work on down the road?
I would suggest HO. It has the best selection and has several economy lines if cost is a major factor. Get an Optivsor for working on cars, structures, etc.
I don't know your space situation. But if you build the layout on wheels you can roll it against a wall or in a corner. This might allow you to have a little larger layout, say 5x10. I have a test layout built 5'4" x 12' (uses 2 exactly sheets of plywood each cut at 5'4") on four 4" wheels that I keep rolled up against a wall.
Personally, I started with an HO 4x8, but I found HO to be too small and am now in S.
Good luck
Paul
I am fortunate to attend operating sessions on both N and HO scale layouts. The secret to getting either scale to run well is smooth and accurate trackwork. Newer N scale products run significantly better than older products (more than 15 years old) so, if you go with N scale, buy new or only slightly used. HO scale is less fussy but clean track and clean wheels means either scale runs well.
The downside to HO scale is the amount of space necessary to create a realistic model. You will likely grow tired of a 4' by 8' layout as there simply isn't enough room (unless you model a really small operation). The upside is that there are a LOT more HO scale products available! HO scale has better detail and things like road numbers are easier to read. HO scale track is easier to lay smoothly and keep accurately in gauge.
The downside to N scale is that its size makes details and road numbers harder (not impossible) to see. Even on the N scale layouts I get to operate, I see a lot of kinks in the trackwork, especially at turnouts. When building a small N scale switching layout, I also found it difficult to keep such track transitions smooth. Fortunately, most N scale rolling stock will pass over such kinks without trouble (something that would not happen in HO scale). The main advantage to N scale is that a nice layout with lots of switching opportunities can be built on a 4' by 8' footprint.
Whichever scale you choose, I would highly recommend trying to model an actual prototype as doing so will limit your purchases to only items you need for your layout. A prototype also determines what types of industries exist and makes it far easier to create a purpose for your model railroad.
I have often thought that an excellent N scale model of the Ventura County Railroad and the Port of Hueneme in California could easily fit on a 4' by 8' layout. If you look up Port Hueneme on Google maps, you will find a very compact deep water port and a Navy SeaBee base, both served by the Ventura County Railroad with a connection to the Union Pacific. The VCR prototype track plan is roughly rectangular with the Port of Hueneme in the southwest corner and the Union Pacific connection in the northeast corner. The VCR is currently owned by the Genesee & Wyoming and uses the same paint scheme. Modern rail traffic includes imported automobiles, general merchandise and some military traffic. A WWII era version of this port/railroad would include lots of military shipping as well as lots of activity on the SeaBee base. Check it out!
One last recommendation: Go directly to DCC from the start! A starter DCC system with a WiFi module to allow the use of smart phones as wireless throttles would be all you need for multiple operators running multiple trains.
Before settling on a 4x8 layout, I'd recommend reading Bryon Henderson's critiques of the 4x8. Its not to disuade you from it, but hopefully will help you understand the limitations and footspace issues caused by 4x8's, and the alternative starter plans that are available that take up less space:https://www.layoutvision.com/why-waste-the-space-on-a-4x8
https://www.layoutvision.com/around-the-room-in-8x10
If you want to stick to a 4x8 the Model Railroader staff project layout "The Virginian" is a coal railroad themed layout that roughly matches your descriptions in HO scale. That could work as inspiration or a plan to copy. Yes you will not be getting in an realistic passenger operations unless you are willing to run it with shorter than prototypical rolling stock, but you can get that coal mine action that seems to be one of your main goals. Furthermore the Virginian shows how to expand past the 4x8 table by plugging in expansion modules to the sides of the layout.
There are times when I regret not switching over to N from HO due to the ambitions of the large industries I want on my layout.
But I have operated on N scale layouts and find that my eyesight (and seemingly thickening fingers) make it a big challenge to put N scale trains on the track. Indeed even HO is becoming a challenge. I set up a length of 0-27 track to deliver Halloween candy in a socially distanced manner and THOSE trains I could put on the track.
I also have a hard time reading reporting marks and numbers on N scale rolling stock for operating session purposes but am assured by many N scalers that this is a common problem and that many of them use operating and car forwarding schemes that do not rely on reading the sides of the cars.
There is great variety of stuff available in HO and N and I do think that the major issue is your physical comfort with the size of the trains. And that takes a bit of experience. And alas now is a not a great time to be gaining that experience. But if you have ambitions for a large track plan I think N needs to be carefully explored.
Dave Nelson