Hello all. Like the title says, I'm very new to trains. I had some relatives that had HO stuff back when I was a kid, so I remember seeing some nice setups back then. I'm now in my 40's and think I'd like to build a little something myself. Keep me busy during the winter months or rainy days when I can't fly R/C. :)
I'm from south western Pennsylvania and have watched trains hauling coal my entire life. I was planning on starting with a 4x8 area, as I can get that past the Mrs. without too much of a hassle. I was thinking of a layout similiar to the Virginian... or something similiar. I know I'd like some rolling hills, a tunnel, maybe a wooden trussel bridge, and coal mine (and a bonus if i can add a coal conveyor across the hillsides). A river with barges would be wonderful, but not sure I have the room to accomodate all of that just yet. I live in a area with a lot of very small, old "coal towns". I can't really build to scale of the area because it's so spread out, but I figured I can condense those areas down and bring a little something from different areas.
I like the look of the HO scale cars. I haven't really seen any N scale in person. I know I can fit more into my area with N scale, but I wasn't sure if it is a lot more expensive, or if the detail is there like it is with the HO stuff? Plus, I'm not going to get any younger, and not sure if the N scale would be hard to see/work on down the road?
Any input, suggestions, thoughts, advice for a new guy looking to get started?
As you have probably figured out as a newbie your first few post are moderated and delayed.John Allen’s first G&D had a little bit of everything on an area slightly smaller than 4’ x 8’.
Click on the drawing to enlarge
This is my version of John’s layout on a 4’ x 8’ footprint. My second and third layout were built around this drawing.Get a picture host and post pictures, we love seeing each others work.
Links to John's layouts
http://www.doug56.net/GD/
http://gdlines.org/GDLines/index.html Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
OldManHobbies I haven't really seen any N scale in person. I know I can fit more into my area with N scale, but I wasn't sure if it is a lot more expensive, or if the detail is there like it is with the HO stuff?
I'm not a Nscale guy but there are lots of folks who are. You should definitely see them in person before choosing that scale. The detail is much better than it used to be and they are probably less expensive.
The space advantage is huge, but they just look to small to me. That's a personal call, not a judgement of the scale.
Unfortunately Covid has put an end to train shows where you could travel and see several layouts. Where do you live now, maybe someone has some suggestion for something local to you?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Sounds like a very ambitious project for HO scale. The G&D was a brilliant plan, but was based on tight curves and lots of elevation. Only small locomotives with few cars can operate well on that, in my opinion. But if you like logging and small mining operations, it can work well. There are neat little steam engines you can find, but beware, some have fragile gears... I can't comment about N scale, but if you want to operate long coal drags, I would say that's your only option. Or negociate more space with your partner...
Simon
OldManHobbiesHello all. Like the title says, I'm very new to trains.
I have built layouts in both HO and N scale.
Where N scale gets expensive is in areas with lots of buildings. It costs 3-4 times as much to fill a built up area in N scale with plastic building kits than it does in HO.
If you model rural areas, the costs are about the same.
Each has advantages.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
OldManHobbiesI'm from south western Pennsylvania and have watched trains hauling coal my entire life. I was planning on starting with a 4x8 area, as I can get that past the Mrs. without too much of a hassle.
Welcome to the forums!
It's been a long time since I was actively searching for layout track plans, and how to fit what I wanted in it. For a start, I think you will do well to start small with a 4x8. Check out the MR Track Plan database. Over the years MR has put out many 4x8 layouts, I am sure you will find several that fit into the "coal hauling/ mining" category. Here's the link: https://mrr.trains.com/how-to/track-plan-database
I too chose 4x8 as a start because it seems a more acceptable fit within the home life. If you decide later to expand, you can tear out, split, or modify with extensions. I think you will enjoy this format as a way to get into the hobby. In the meantime, a 4x8 is do-able; other plans may take more effort, time, or investment. And don't overlook, another startout idea is a small shelf layout.
Have fun!
OldManHobbies Hello all. Like the title says, I'm very new to trains. I had some relatives that had HO stuff back when I was a kid, so I remember seeing some nice setups back then. I'm now in my 40's and think I'd like to build a little something myself. Keep me busy during the winter months or rainy days when I can't fly R/C. :) I'm from south western Pennsylvania and have watched trains hauling coal my entire life. I was planning on starting with a 4x8 area, as I can get that past the Mrs. without too much of a hassle. I was thinking of a layout similiar to the Virginian... or something similiar. I know I'd like some rolling hills, a tunnel, maybe a wooden trussel bridge, and coal mine (and a bonus if i can add a coal conveyor across the hillsides). A river with barges would be wonderful, but not sure I have the room to accomodate all of that just yet. I live in a area with a lot of very small, old "coal towns". I can't really build to scale of the area because it's so spread out, but I figured I can condense those areas down and bring a little something from different areas. I like the look of the HO scale cars. I haven't really seen any N scale in person. I know I can fit more into my area with N scale, but I wasn't sure if it is a lot more expensive, or if the detail is there like it is with the HO stuff? Plus, I'm not going to get any younger, and not sure if the N scale would be hard to see/work on down the road? Any input, suggestions, thoughts, advice for a new guy looking to get started?
Some thoughts on space and scale.
N:
If you only have a small area for a layout, the N-scale will fit a lot more in than HO which you know.
There is a lot of nice newer N scale rolling stock having been produced during the past 20 years such as Wheels of Time, Trainworx, Bowser, Intermountain and even Athearn has entered the N scale market with nice freight cars.
Bowser in particular tends to produce northeast related rolling stock, but Trainworx makes some very nice N scale freight cars - IMO, as good or better than Microtrains.
HO:
If you are limited to a 4x8 layout, the curves in HO will be rather sharp 18 or 22 inch curves. That mean longer engines or rolling stock may not operate well or at minimum look not so good on those curves. If you don't mind running mostly 4-axle diesels, shorter steam engines and shorter freight cars, then it may be ok.
As for cost, N scale may cost a little less item for item, but it's not half price for half the size. A lot of the nicer HO freight cars these days with finer detail can generally run around $30 to as high as $55 street price or so each. Nicer N scale freight cars can run around $20- $35 each street price.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I personally prefer HO scale. Easier for me to handle and my eyesight is not as good as before.
I have seen Nscale layouts at shows (pre-Covid) and because they had the space the modelers would cram in as much track as possible.
I have seen only one Nscale layout I liked. Why? Because they used a HO scale plan and transferred it to Nscale. There was much gentler curves. Any straits had a slight curve. The scenery was much relaxer to the eye.
I was told when planning a layout is to think like the railroad planners did. If there is an easier way to get from A to B they would build the line as such. A tunnel was the last resort in a way. Even a deep cutting was more preferable. Obviously if a tunnel was the only option then a tunnel was built.
Transfer that information to HO/Nscale a layout becomes easier to build and operate.
At first keep the plan simple to operate by yourself (even if others may be there at times) Get something running asap even if it is in a yard. Then build on from there. When doing scenery/buildings etc. see what you see not what you thought you saw. Transfer to the modeling what you see and it is correct.
Some modelers like to run favorite locomotives etc that are of different regions of the country. Some modelers choose a railroad company and run only their rolling stock. Whichever way you choose you are right. The main thing is to enjoy the journey. Sometimes you may get unstuck. We have all been there. Ask questions on this Forum. Someone will know the answer. The only wrong question is the one you did not ask.
Keep it fun even at serious times.
Post us some pictures as you progress
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
OldManHobbiesI like the look of the HO scale cars. I haven't really seen any N scale in person.
Hi OldManHobbies,
Welcome to the hobby and to the forums!!
Personally, I'm into HO and I like the size. I think N scale is too small but that's just me. Lots of people will disagree. You really should get to see a couple of N scale layouts in operation before you decide. How you do that during Covid is not a question I can answer. Maybe start by asking your local hobby shop if you have one.
The other thing you should try to determine is what theme you want your layout to model. If you want long coal drags with multiple engines, you are going to have a hard time doing that convincingly in HO on a 4x8 layout.
Good luck!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
OldManHobbies I was planning on starting with a 4x8 area, as I can get that past the Mrs. without too much of a hassle. I was thinking of a layout similiar to the Virginian... or something similiar. I know I'd like some rolling hills, a tunnel, maybe a wooden trussel bridge, and coal mine (and a bonus if i can add a coal conveyor across the hillsides). A river with barges would be wonderful, but not sure I have the room to accomodate all of that just yet.
Taking your "givens and druthers" into account, it sounds like N-scale would work much better for you. In HO, a 4' x 8' layout would need sharp curves and short trains, and would really only work for one "scene" (like one town, one coal mine, etc.). In N, you could do longer trains, have more scenes, and broader curves allowing larger engines and cars.
The advice to check the trackplan database is good; being "old school" I'd also advise getting some trackplanning books from Kalmbach like "Track Planning for Realistic Operation", and "101 Track Plans" (and the follow-up 102 and 103 books).
An idea would be to take one of the HO 4 x 8 layout plans and building it in N scale. Those 15" and 18"R curves are tight in HO, but broad in N scale. You could run big engines, even articulated steam engines, full length passenger cars, etc.
Consider using Kato Unitrack. There is a wide variety of track pieces in N scale, and it's going to be a lot easier getting things up and running than using flextrack. You can try out different ideas with Unitrack without having to fasten it down. Once you are sure the layout works the way you want it to, you can elevate the track using Woodland Scenic foam risers - makes it much easier to add a river and bridges than hacking out the plywood.
http://www.katousa.com/N/unitrack.html
https://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/category/SubTerrainSystem
BTW don't worry about the "old eyes need big trains" argument. If you have trouble seeing the trains, go to your opthamologist and get a pair of "computer glasses". They work great for model railroading.
There are times when I regret not switching over to N from HO due to the ambitions of the large industries I want on my layout.
But I have operated on N scale layouts and find that my eyesight (and seemingly thickening fingers) make it a big challenge to put N scale trains on the track. Indeed even HO is becoming a challenge. I set up a length of 0-27 track to deliver Halloween candy in a socially distanced manner and THOSE trains I could put on the track.
I also have a hard time reading reporting marks and numbers on N scale rolling stock for operating session purposes but am assured by many N scalers that this is a common problem and that many of them use operating and car forwarding schemes that do not rely on reading the sides of the cars.
There is great variety of stuff available in HO and N and I do think that the major issue is your physical comfort with the size of the trains. And that takes a bit of experience. And alas now is a not a great time to be gaining that experience. But if you have ambitions for a large track plan I think N needs to be carefully explored.
Dave Nelson
Before settling on a 4x8 layout, I'd recommend reading Bryon Henderson's critiques of the 4x8. Its not to disuade you from it, but hopefully will help you understand the limitations and footspace issues caused by 4x8's, and the alternative starter plans that are available that take up less space:https://www.layoutvision.com/why-waste-the-space-on-a-4x8
https://www.layoutvision.com/around-the-room-in-8x10
If you want to stick to a 4x8 the Model Railroader staff project layout "The Virginian" is a coal railroad themed layout that roughly matches your descriptions in HO scale. That could work as inspiration or a plan to copy. Yes you will not be getting in an realistic passenger operations unless you are willing to run it with shorter than prototypical rolling stock, but you can get that coal mine action that seems to be one of your main goals. Furthermore the Virginian shows how to expand past the 4x8 table by plugging in expansion modules to the sides of the layout.
I am fortunate to attend operating sessions on both N and HO scale layouts. The secret to getting either scale to run well is smooth and accurate trackwork. Newer N scale products run significantly better than older products (more than 15 years old) so, if you go with N scale, buy new or only slightly used. HO scale is less fussy but clean track and clean wheels means either scale runs well.
The downside to HO scale is the amount of space necessary to create a realistic model. You will likely grow tired of a 4' by 8' layout as there simply isn't enough room (unless you model a really small operation). The upside is that there are a LOT more HO scale products available! HO scale has better detail and things like road numbers are easier to read. HO scale track is easier to lay smoothly and keep accurately in gauge.
The downside to N scale is that its size makes details and road numbers harder (not impossible) to see. Even on the N scale layouts I get to operate, I see a lot of kinks in the trackwork, especially at turnouts. When building a small N scale switching layout, I also found it difficult to keep such track transitions smooth. Fortunately, most N scale rolling stock will pass over such kinks without trouble (something that would not happen in HO scale). The main advantage to N scale is that a nice layout with lots of switching opportunities can be built on a 4' by 8' footprint.
Whichever scale you choose, I would highly recommend trying to model an actual prototype as doing so will limit your purchases to only items you need for your layout. A prototype also determines what types of industries exist and makes it far easier to create a purpose for your model railroad.
I have often thought that an excellent N scale model of the Ventura County Railroad and the Port of Hueneme in California could easily fit on a 4' by 8' layout. If you look up Port Hueneme on Google maps, you will find a very compact deep water port and a Navy SeaBee base, both served by the Ventura County Railroad with a connection to the Union Pacific. The VCR prototype track plan is roughly rectangular with the Port of Hueneme in the southwest corner and the Union Pacific connection in the northeast corner. The VCR is currently owned by the Genesee & Wyoming and uses the same paint scheme. Modern rail traffic includes imported automobiles, general merchandise and some military traffic. A WWII era version of this port/railroad would include lots of military shipping as well as lots of activity on the SeaBee base. Check it out!
One last recommendation: Go directly to DCC from the start! A starter DCC system with a WiFi module to allow the use of smart phones as wireless throttles would be all you need for multiple operators running multiple trains.
Hornblower
OldManHobbies Plus, I'm not going to get any younger, and not sure if the N scale would be hard to see/work on down the road?
I would suggest HO. It has the best selection and has several economy lines if cost is a major factor. Get an Optivsor for working on cars, structures, etc.
I don't know your space situation. But if you build the layout on wheels you can roll it against a wall or in a corner. This might allow you to have a little larger layout, say 5x10. I have a test layout built 5'4" x 12' (uses 2 exactly sheets of plywood each cut at 5'4") on four 4" wheels that I keep rolled up against a wall.
Personally, I started with an HO 4x8, but I found HO to be too small and am now in S.
Good luck
Paul
If you are nearing, or are already at, the time in your life where you need bifocals, you're also at the time of life when your pupils have become less able to relax and to widen, or dilate, when light conditions are low. So, you will find it a struggle to see your models in any scale well unless you are willing to bring a LOT of light to bear on your layout space. The smaller the scale, the smaller the details, and the smaller the details, the less capable are your eyes to seeing the level of definition and resolution that you had when you were south of 20 years of age.
A great many people struggle over this dilemma. Many in their 60's decide to change scales and they rise to S or even to O gauge because they no longer have the dexterity or the visual acuity to enjoy what they have had for years.
If your space is truly limited, and you have little flexibility or good will to expand, probably N scale is your best bet to get an interesting track plan that won't bore you in a few weeks. However, no matter which scale it is to be, you can do a lot of learning. You can hone your skills and transfer them to any scale when the time comes. So, don't labour too long on this decision; pick something that will work in terms of space and availabilty of materials and rolling stock, and get busy.
One bit of advice: if you are capable of it, draw up a scale plan with correct turnout lengths and frog angles, and use a compass or protractor to draw true scale curves. This will save you a great deal of aggravation later.
I just wanted to add a few thoughts regarding the visibility of N scale versus HO scale. Yes, it can be difficult to read the road numbers on N scale rolling stock, especially when one compares N scale to HO scale. However, the owners of the N scale layouts I operate on have found it easier to provide a photo of each car on its car card so that the operators look for a car to match the photo rather than even attempt to read the road number. This tends to reduce the need to actually read the road numbers to instances where cars with similar paint schemes are at the same industry or track section. Since his loco fleet has multiple units in the same paint livery, one of the N scale layout owners places straight pins with road number flags in front of each staged loco so that operators only have to read the flag to know they have the right loco. You can also hang magnifying glasses on coiled tethers on each layout face to make it easier to read/see small details without the magnifying glasses walking away.
Just a thought.
Just because the Household Authorities say there is a 8x4 area, who says you have to fill it?
If your negotiating skills are good tell the H. A. you will only take up 8x2. Once the layout is built; small maybe, but (and a big but) the H.A. see that you mean business and the whole idea is not 'on a whim'.
8x2 is a lot easy to work with than 8x4. (Stretching over if a derailment for instance.)
Now comes the negotiating. Extending the 8x2 to 12x2 (or 8 x 2 plus 4x1). No tight curves. Over time keep negotiating for more length of space. even six inches wide can have a railroad. Many a classic layout started very small.
In the future. "Hey have you seen OldManHobbies layout? It's round the room. Some parts only six inches wide. Fantastic!"
Just a thought!
This is a tastes great v. less filling debate (remember those?). To help you decide further, perhaps join a local NMRA group or ask at a local hobby shop about anyone in the hobby. It's much easier to see and talk to folks locally b/c having a mentor who can visit your layout as it advances is invaluable.
kasskabooseThis is a tastes great v. less filling debate (remember those?)
Now the debate is Left Twix vs. Right Twix!
Welcome aboard. I am in HO, just so you know where I am coming from. I think you have a good grasp of the differences between and advantages of each scale. I won't rehash all that. I like building models, kit bashing, scratch building. This is easier in HO where everthing is larger and small detail parts like grab irons are big enough to see and insert.
4 by 8 is a good starter layout size because plywood comes 4 by 8. Stick a couple of saw horses under a sheet of plywood and your benchwork is done. Homasote, an insulating board, comes in 4 by 8 sheets too. Homasote takes track nails nicely and deadens the sound of running trains. It's available in the north, hard to find in the south. Homasote needs plywood underneath it to prevent sagging.
Think about running a view block down the center of your 4 by 8, dividing the layout into two scenes and preventing people from seeing the far side of the layout, which increases realism. Think about having a deep river valley, with your main line carried across it on a mighty bridge. Avoid running straight track right down the edge of the table, it just emphases the edge of the layout (edge of the world). Put some slight curves into the track so it doesn't line up with the table edge.
Lights in structures and rolling stock look really cool after dark.
Paint can go a long way toward making it look real. Paint the glossy plastic trucks either rust red or grimey black. Paint the undersides of rolling stock with dark gray auto primer from a rattle can. Paint canvas roofs on rolling stock (cabeese, heavy weight passenger cars) with the same stuff. Too glossy low end cars look much better with a coat of Testor's DullCote.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
HO scale.
If you want to run Southwestern Pennsylvania traffic in a "my lifetime" era, Bowser and their huge catalog of road names for their 100 ton hoppers is going to come in handy.
With age, the eyes aren't what they used to be and the fingers aren't so nimble. And the patience can grow a little shorter, too.
For that reason, I'd suggest HO. Easier to work on, easier to see, etc.
Trains that you can enjoy without a magnifying glass are more fun...
If you wear bifocals, go to your eye doctor or opthamologist and ask about getting a pair of "computer glasses" made. My eye Dr. does them in two versions, six-foot and twenty-foot. Basically bifocals have about 2/3rds 'distance' focus and 1/3 'close up' focus. Computer glasses have a large section in the middle that's set at about 2-3 foot distance - like the distance to a typical computer monitor. I was having a hard time a while back with model railroading, as it was hard to see the models clearly on the layout unless I was right on top of them or they were far away. With my 'twenty foot' computer glasses, it's now very clear and MUCH more enjoyable to work / operate the layout...and it was much cheaper than getting rid of my HO stuff to go to a larger scale!
wjstixBTW don't worry about the "old eyes need big trains" argument. If you have trouble seeing the trains, go to your ophthalmologist and get a pair of "computer glasses". They work great for model railroading.
I saw a post a few years ago and what he did was have his glasses made with the lenses upside down, meaning he had the bifocal part of the lenses on top, instead of on the bottom.I was around 50-something when I started working on my layout. My eyes weren't as sharp as they used to be and for me, it was hard enough dealing with HO details, let alone in N-scale.
This layout started out in a 10x12' space, but then I moved to an apartment with a basement. It has since grown to 27x29'.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Medina1128 wjstix BTW don't worry about the "old eyes need big trains" argument. If you have trouble seeing the trains, go to your ophthalmologist and get a pair of "computer glasses". They work great for model railroading. I saw a post a few years ago and what he did was have his glasses made with the lenses upside down, meaning he had the bifocal part of the lenses on top, instead of on the bottom.
wjstix BTW don't worry about the "old eyes need big trains" argument. If you have trouble seeing the trains, go to your ophthalmologist and get a pair of "computer glasses". They work great for model railroading.
I saw a post a few years ago and what he did was have his glasses made with the lenses upside down, meaning he had the bifocal part of the lenses on top, instead of on the bottom.
This idea has two other benefits . . .
1) Reclining in the LazyBoy recliner and watching TV, and 2) walking down stairs.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
I built my 4×9 HO layout at age 60 and my N door layout at 65-67, I'm now 73. In my experience you need good light most of all and suitable glasses for close work as others have noted. I don't find working on N scale a problem but I personally pefer HO as I like kits and there aren't any rolling stock kits in N. I also prefer the way a HO train performs, it rolls far smoother. Just due to the weight. I also like steam and recently bought a few in brass for the detail and wanting specific models of CN steam.
I would suggest you buy a few pieces in both scales to help you decide.
CN Charlie
I hope my experience helps you decide.
Thank you all so very much! Something that a few of you mentioned that I hadn't really thought of is kind of doing a mock up of what I want. I think that may help me decide which scale will give me what I want... what I have in my head. I may pickup a sheet of plywood and sketch out in pencil some of my ideas. Since I know the radius of the turns each scale can handle, I can roughly determine if I can pull it off with HO scale, or if it would need to be N. I guess I will start there.
A few other things to note.... I do plan on starting with DCC from the beginning. I understand the cost is a tad higher, but I like the benefits and it just seems like a better option for the long run. I've looked at some DCC starter sets, but given I already know I want some specific locomotives, I may just piece what I want together. I do have a local hobby shop that has a small train room, but their train veteran is no longer there from what I understand. I plan on stopping by and getting a feel for their knowledge and stock/supplies. That may help me decide as well.
ROBERT PETRICK Medina1128 wjstix BTW don't worry about the "old eyes need big trains" argument. If you have trouble seeing the trains, go to your ophthalmologist and get a pair of "computer glasses". They work great for model railroading. I saw a post a few years ago and what he did was have his glasses made with the lenses upside down, meaning he had the bifocal part of the lenses on top, instead of on the bottom. This idea has two other benefits . . . 1) Reclining in the LazyBoy recliner and watching TV, and 2) walking down stairs. Robert
OldManHobbies I do have a local hobby shop that has a small train room, but their train veteran is no longer there from what I understand.
I do have a local hobby shop that has a small train room, but their train veteran is no longer there from what I understand.
Are you still in SWPA? If so, which shop is this?
OldManHobbies I've looked at some DCC starter sets, but given I already know I want some specific locomotives, I may just piece what I want together.
As I previously recommended, go with the starter system of your choice, then add a WiFi module so that anyone with a smart phone can use it as a wireless throttle. Throttles are expensive, especially wireless throttles, but a WiFi module is usually less expensive than a single throttle. Your starter system will come with a throttle so that throttle can be used to perform any programming you need.
I have an 18' by 19' double deck HO scale layout powered by an MRC Prodigy (not squared) DCC system. I have two tethered throttles and two wireless throttles. I was looking to purchase additional wireless throttles when the MRC 1530 WiFi module was released. The "street" price at that time was at least $50 less than a single MRC wireless throttle and the MRC WiFI module will allow up to eight (8) smart devices to be used as wireless throttles simultaneously. It works as advertized. I see that Model Train Stuff still sells the MRC 1530 for $85 which is definitely less than most throttles. The other plus to the MRC WiFi module is that it is designed to be a stand-alone WiFi network (no computer or internet access is needed) although MRC does offer a computer interface module if desired. An MRC Prodigy Express with a WiFI module would probably be all you'd need for a 4' by 8' layout in either scale.
Digitrax also offers a WiFi module that will work with up to four (4) smart throttles but I understand it requires the use of a computer. A Digitrax Zephyr with a WiFi module (and computer) would be another DCC system option.