thomas81z Douglas, TCS Wow is also quite good. While I do like the Loksound decoder for diesels, they are still very limited on their US steam sound files; hence why I've gone with TCS WowSteam for my steam sound installations. And, like Loksound - TCS has excellent motor-control, which is far more important to me than sound. Tom
Douglas,
TCS Wow is also quite good. While I do like the Loksound decoder for diesels, they are still very limited on their US steam sound files; hence why I've gone with TCS WowSteam for my steam sound installations. And, like Loksound - TCS has excellent motor-control, which is far more important to me than sound.
Tom
tstage Doughless The LokSound 5 and the Tsunami2 are probably the two best sound decoders on the market. Athearn installs the T2, and Walthers, Atlas, and Intermountain install the V5. I'm not sure what the other manufacturerers use. Douglas, TCS Wow is also quite good. While I do like the Loksound decoder for diesels, they are still very limited on their US steam sound files; hence why I've gone with TCS WowSteam for my steam sound installations. And, like Loksound - TCS has excellent motor-control, which is far more important to me than sound. Tom
Doughless The LokSound 5 and the Tsunami2 are probably the two best sound decoders on the market. Athearn installs the T2, and Walthers, Atlas, and Intermountain install the V5. I'm not sure what the other manufacturerers use.
i have 30 big boys & about 1/2 of them are rivarossi red box versions & they all have tcs wow sound
[/quote]
That's great. All three locos that I had with TCS WOW had a perceptable lerch between speed steps 5 and 6, so I sold those locos.
- Douglas
rrinker Doughless rrinker I want to put a decoder in a loco that needs and EMD 567 prime mover, well, no worries about that particualr Tsu2 being out of stock at my favorite retailer. Just take a blank Loksound decoder and load the appropriate EMD 567 sound file. Randy, as you may know but as a point of clarity, T2s have a number of versions. EMDs, ALCO, GEs. I think the 567 is on the EMD 1st generation, and it has all of the 567 variations on it, IIRC. Same with the 645 decoders and the 710 decoder variations. I think its Soundtraxx's way of competing with the Lokprogrammer idea. You have to buy several decoders to get all of the sounds, but its better than the alternative of having to buy one decoder for each PM. Right, but it doesn;t really change anything. If the dealer is out of stock of Tsu2 EMD FIrst Gen, well, no installing sound in my F7 today. While combining many variations in one reduces the number, you still have the various form factors. So EMF first, second, and third gen, GE first and second, Alco, and Misc. That's 7, times say 3 basic form factors - board replacement, wired, and 21 pin. 21 skus for the line. Not counting the micro size variations, etc. Loksound - 3 skus, for the 3 form factors. They do have more, because they have broken out the ones that basically just do DCC and the ones that also do Marklin mfx and other non-DCC protocols for European users. But there's basically just one sku per form factor. ANd the better dealers will install your chocie fo sound projects befors shipping, so you can take advantage of this without buying the Lokprogrammer, but really, it's much faster to configure function control beyond the basics using the Lokprogrammer vs using JMRI and your system's program track. --Randy
Doughless rrinker I want to put a decoder in a loco that needs and EMD 567 prime mover, well, no worries about that particualr Tsu2 being out of stock at my favorite retailer. Just take a blank Loksound decoder and load the appropriate EMD 567 sound file. Randy, as you may know but as a point of clarity, T2s have a number of versions. EMDs, ALCO, GEs. I think the 567 is on the EMD 1st generation, and it has all of the 567 variations on it, IIRC. Same with the 645 decoders and the 710 decoder variations. I think its Soundtraxx's way of competing with the Lokprogrammer idea. You have to buy several decoders to get all of the sounds, but its better than the alternative of having to buy one decoder for each PM.
rrinker I want to put a decoder in a loco that needs and EMD 567 prime mover, well, no worries about that particualr Tsu2 being out of stock at my favorite retailer. Just take a blank Loksound decoder and load the appropriate EMD 567 sound file.
Randy, as you may know but as a point of clarity, T2s have a number of versions. EMDs, ALCO, GEs.
I think the 567 is on the EMD 1st generation, and it has all of the 567 variations on it, IIRC. Same with the 645 decoders and the 710 decoder variations.
I think its Soundtraxx's way of competing with the Lokprogrammer idea. You have to buy several decoders to get all of the sounds, but its better than the alternative of having to buy one decoder for each PM.
Right, but it doesn;t really change anything. If the dealer is out of stock of Tsu2 EMD FIrst Gen, well, no installing sound in my F7 today. While combining many variations in one reduces the number, you still have the various form factors. So EMF first, second, and third gen, GE first and second, Alco, and Misc. That's 7, times say 3 basic form factors - board replacement, wired, and 21 pin. 21 skus for the line. Not counting the micro size variations, etc. Loksound - 3 skus, for the 3 form factors. They do have more, because they have broken out the ones that basically just do DCC and the ones that also do Marklin mfx and other non-DCC protocols for European users. But there's basically just one sku per form factor.
ANd the better dealers will install your chocie fo sound projects befors shipping, so you can take advantage of this without buying the Lokprogrammer, but really, it's much faster to configure function control beyond the basics using the Lokprogrammer vs using JMRI and your system's program track.
--Randy
Oh I understand, I just wanted readers to know that T2 has multiple choices already loaded.
Still have to buy a decoder for each loco, so as long as the dealer has blank ESUs in stock, all is well.
To the OP--
I had one Athearn Econami sound decoder engine, and no, I did not like the sound. It was too basic all the way around. I vote no on the Econami anything.
To the Rapido lovers out there: the RS-11 ground lights and the cab gauge lights also work in plain dc. They are just on all the time. You do not have to buy dcc to get those features.
Having recently experienced some challenges with dcc and sound-equipped engines, I am more pro-dcc ready, ie preferring plain dc locos, than ever before. I have seen just how much power is actually lost to the decoder-sound module combination versus the very same locomotive models in plain dc, and the differences are noticeable. Also, for the particular group of engines that I have, the dcc ones definitely run hotter and are more likely to experience motor and/or board failures.
I am set up to toggle between plain dc and full dcc at the flip of a DPDT switch, and excepting my son's Genesis 2.0 units which run well either in dc or dcc, the other dcc engines we own/have owned recently just come up wanting.
So waiting for better decoders of tomorrow might be a worthwhile strategy for some.
To be clear: I recently bought 4 dcc units of 2 different diesel models and 8 plain dc units of the same 2 models. 1 full dcc unit failed at about 1 hour or so of run time in dcc. The others definitely run fairly hot by comparison to the plain dc units. I sold one of the dcc units on Ebay, as it was still new. One I think I may keep but tested even last night again in dcc, and it runs much better and cooler in plain dc, so it is now banned from use in dcc for me because I dont want to fry it. Last dcc unit still up for sale is essentially bnib.
Yes, Mike, I am well aware of the heritage of the engine and the chassis. You can call it de-tuned, but it is more "torque adjusted tuning" for the application in street driven 4800 lb station wagons, police cruisers and 5400 lb F150 pickups.
Other great features include, upright seating, a great balance of handling and comfort with the long wheelbase, paddle shifters, and plenty of room for stuff.
Sheldon
PRR8259,
Thanks for posting your feedback as I was wondering about the Economai's offerings.
Regarding your units running hotter, I am curious. My DCC and DCC-sound units, so far don't "feel" much warmer than my DC units after a long runtime on my friend's layout (he's currently dual mode but switching over to full DCC).
I've read of units becoming very warm or hot, years back, with what is now considered "older" DCC technology from the late 90's-early 2000's production period.
Regarding power loss. That is an interesting issue. Reminds me of my old hot rods from the "dinosaur days". Good performers until I flipped that A/C switch on, LOL! Slightly less power, and slightly more fuel consumed. But today's cars, even with the A/C blowing on "high mode", the stereo system playing, and other electronic gadgets running.....are so much more efficient and powerful than our classic Z28's, Trans Am's, and 302 powered Mustang GT's. Seems that, metaphorically, model railroad electronics has also become more efficient and precise.
I may be mistaken, but even if there is a slight power loss between identical units (one DC and the other DCC) it's likely that a number of us (myself included) that like and use DCC / DCC-sound are not concerned about that issue as long as the unit can haul a train-length that may be typical for our layouts. Most modelers I know double-head their trains if they're hauling more than 10 freight cars and 8 passenger cars (selective compression).
PRR8259 To the OP-- I had one Athearn Econami sound decoder engine, and no, I did not like the sound. It was too basic all the way around. I vote no on the Econami anything. I recently bought 4 dcc units of 2 different diesel models and 8 plain dc units of the same 2 models. 1 full dcc unit failed at about 1 hour or so of run time in dcc. The others definitely run fairly hot by comparison to the plain dc units.
I recently bought 4 dcc units of 2 different diesel models and 8 plain dc units of the same 2 models. 1 full dcc unit failed at about 1 hour or so of run time in dcc. The others definitely run fairly hot by comparison to the plain dc units.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
It's EXACTLY motor power effects. Disregarding the voltage drop on DC passing through the decoder, MR has traditionally used pure, filtered DC. This ALWAYS results in a higher minimum speed than pulse power, even with a pure DC loco. Top speed on a dual mode loco is likewise limited as they restrict testing to 12V (note that on some MTH locos they published results using a higher DC voltages since MTH says their locos are designed to work with much higher than the 12V DC NMRA specification). As soon as they switch to DCC, the voltage doesn;t matter, ANY current DCC decoder used BEMF and various pulse modulation methods to get best slow speed performnance, etc. So the starting speed on DCC SHOULD be slower. And the top speed will almost certainly be faster than running the same loco on DC since the track voltage is typically higher and at the top speed step, more of it gets to the motor than if you start with 12V DC. On 12V DC full throttle, the DCC loco is only going to put 10-11 volts to the motor, same loco on typical DCC track will put at least the full 12V to the motor if not slightly over.
There is no "power loss" with DCC. Your V8 doesn't turn in to a 4 banger because you put a decoder in it.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy, I think what they are discussing is not slow speed control, but a somewhat mistaken consideration of applied voltage vs. speed.
Some of the DCC functions, at least in older versions, don't 'wake up' until a fairly large voltage is present -- we have commented on this with respect both to sound at starting and recovery from momentary interruptions or sags.
A typical model motor will be voltage-controlled, meaning roughly the higher voltage applied, the faster it will turn. This is not a measure either of the power it produces or of the electrical consumption. So naively noting that a DC version starts creeping at 3.2V whereas its 'compatible decoder' counterpart needs nearly 8V on the track to creep (probably more slowly and with better fine control) is not the 'right' comparison.
That a sound locomotive draws more current at a given road speed than 'straight DC' is a given. I believe that may also be true of 'pulse power' (or crudely rectified AC to get some of the "benefits" of voltage jitter etc. in overcoming stiction effects) with inadequate ripple filtering, as there may be induction I2R effects -- but that should be relatively slight even at 'older' pulse frequencies.
Measure true wattage, not voltage alone, when assessing the magnitude of power draw.
Lastspikemike rrinker It's EXACTLY motor power effects. Disregarding the voltage drop on DC passing through the decoder, MR has traditionally used pure, filtered DC. This ALWAYS results in a higher minimum speed than pulse power, even with a pure DC loco. Top speed on a dual mode loco is likewise limited as they restrict testing to 12V (note that on some MTH locos they published results using a higher DC voltages since MTH says their locos are designed to work with much higher than the 12V DC NMRA specification). As soon as they switch to DCC, the voltage doesn;t matter, ANY current DCC decoder used BEMF and various pulse modulation methods to get best slow speed performnance, etc. So the starting speed on DCC SHOULD be slower. And the top speed will almost certainly be faster than running the same loco on DC since the track voltage is typically higher and at the top speed step, more of it gets to the motor than if you start with 12V DC. On 12V DC full throttle, the DCC loco is only going to put 10-11 volts to the motor, same loco on typical DCC track will put at least the full 12V to the motor if not slightly over. There is no "power loss" with DCC. Your V8 doesn't turn in to a 4 banger because you put a decoder in it. --Randy MRR July 20 page 55 Walthers Mainline EMD SD50 top speed at 13.5v DC = 93 mph DCC speed step 28 top speed 70 mph. Usually, it's the other way around. Under DC only the top speed is lower than under DCC. But not always. I was surprised and interested by this particular anomaly. Also, some models deliver closer matching top speeds. MRR August 20 Rapido GE B36-7 DC top speed at 13.5v is 60 mph DCC at step 28 is 66 mph
rrinker It's EXACTLY motor power effects. Disregarding the voltage drop on DC passing through the decoder, MR has traditionally used pure, filtered DC. This ALWAYS results in a higher minimum speed than pulse power, even with a pure DC loco. Top speed on a dual mode loco is likewise limited as they restrict testing to 12V (note that on some MTH locos they published results using a higher DC voltages since MTH says their locos are designed to work with much higher than the 12V DC NMRA specification). As soon as they switch to DCC, the voltage doesn;t matter, ANY current DCC decoder used BEMF and various pulse modulation methods to get best slow speed performnance, etc. So the starting speed on DCC SHOULD be slower. And the top speed will almost certainly be faster than running the same loco on DC since the track voltage is typically higher and at the top speed step, more of it gets to the motor than if you start with 12V DC. On 12V DC full throttle, the DCC loco is only going to put 10-11 volts to the motor, same loco on typical DCC track will put at least the full 12V to the motor if not slightly over. There is no "power loss" with DCC. Your V8 doesn't turn in to a 4 banger because you put a decoder in it. --Randy
MRR July 20 page 55
Walthers Mainline EMD SD50
top speed at 13.5v DC = 93 mph
DCC speed step 28 top speed 70 mph.
Usually, it's the other way around. Under DC only the top speed is lower than under DCC.
But not always.
I was surprised and interested by this particular anomaly.
Also, some models deliver closer matching top speeds.
MRR August 20
Rapido GE B36-7
DC top speed at 13.5v is 60 mph
DCC at step 28 is 66 mph
Just another in a long list of reasons why there are no locos with decoders on my DC powered layout.
I use regulated and filtered 4 amp/13.8 volt DC power supplies that feed power thru Aristo Craft Train Engineer wireless radio throttles which have a PWM (pulse width modulated) output.
I find that most newer locos, manufactured in the last 20-25 years preform well, and have similar speed ranges, similar starting voltages, similar slow speeds well within my expectations.
This allows double heading/MU operation of mixed brands and types without the complexities of DCC.
It's simple, similar motors, similar industry wide gearing, and minimal "internal electronics" make for similar speed ranges.
Some locos have required changes to their original factory lighting board setups to achieve the best performance, but generally, they work great "as built" in "DCC Ready" (read DC) form.
So again, I think this a great idea. All you DCC guys keep buying DC locos and installing your own decoders, it will save me time and money on the few remaining locos that I may have an interest in.
On a quick count, I think I have actually removed about 35 or 40 decoders.......
I'd agree with this. I like TCS-Wow with Keep-Alive far more than I do Paragon2 or Paragon3 in my BLI steam engines. I have four BLI steamers and only two have Wow sound at the moment. One because it has a brass tender. I'd have gotten the models without sound, and smoke units, had that been an option, but they only come with BLI's own sound system. My plan currently is that I'll upgrade the units to Wow sound when the Paragon2 or Paragon3 sound units die. It's happened to me once. I rewired a Paragon powered PRR K4 for TCS-Wow and it was not to hard, but a K4 with a Paragon2 unit with smoke, oh that was challenging, it took me a lot longer. However, now both units are easily double headed. The replacement of a locomotive with a Pargon2 unit was several nights of head scratching, tracing wires, and being like, I think this wire goes here... moments. I have a pic somewhere with all of the components on the table and my cat supervising. An excellent supervisor I assure you all. I have two Bowser diesel models, and one has a Tsunami1 and another LokSound, but I'm not sure of the version. I like both just fine and they'll not get upgraded until the decoders fail. Even then, I may just go with another LokSound or Tsunami. So, if you're comfortable trying to put in new sound decoders, with many models it's not hard, I'd say go for older models with either previous generation sound chips or the models are just DCC ready or with regular DCC decoders and enjoy the savings, as well as satisfaction of personalizing the models with the sound decoders you like and not what the manufacturer thought best.
Alvie
Antonio FP45--
I had one of the Athearn SP SD40u units with the Econami sound. It had very nice white LED lights, and ran fine even in plain dc mode for me. The sound was even ok in quality meaning that it sounded like what I remember SD40's to sound like. But it is just a very basic no frills package, and I was using the engine in plain dc as I did not have the NCE system yet at that time, so perhaps my comments above are a little harsh. It offers very basic functions on the cheap, and for some people that might be all they would really ever need. I go to train stores that will let me open and test out engines on their layout. Perhaps that would be the best test--if you have access to a good train store that will allow you to test a brand new engine on their own layout.
I'll note that for me on the layout the Athearn/Tsunami decoder engines have actually performed very well whether in plain dc or full dcc.
I'm trying to avoid calling out a manufacturer by name because they have treated me very well, but I am not at all happy with the marriage of the Loksound 5 decoder with the sound module or else their own motherboard. I can say the manufacturer in question is definitely not Bowser, and that the fully featured units run actually considerably faster in plain dc mode than they do in dcc. So to me, yes, the motherboard/sound module and/or Loksound 5 decoder combination is sucking power and loco performance. The plain dc units which allegedly have the very same motor inside them run better, also just as slowly as, anything with dcc, certainly comparable to dcc speed step 1. They also run notably faster with a train behind them than the dcc unit running in dcc (which seems far too slow).
I'm not a speed freak, but running my hot pig trains at 60 mph or maybe 70 mph would be great. With NCE, the Loksound dcc units aren't getting near 60 mph at speed step 28. Looks more like 45.with.8.cars.
John
Randy, Overmod, John,
Good responses and thanks for clearing up some of the misconceptions regarding DCC. I still consider myself a "novice" but very much appreciate how much DCC and DCC-sound has enchanced this hobby (at least, for me). The prototype turbo whine of SDP40F's and the deep "Chugging" of GE U36B's are permanently etched into my memory.
I may have mentioned that my DCC scenario is more challenging for me than some modelers in that I have a sizeable fleet of Life Like P2K units from the 90's-early 2000's. I have 14 E-units (at last count) and plan on adding sound to them, so it will be an interesting venture.
A modeler asked me why not purchase newer Walthers units, instead? Well here is part of the reason why:
Life Like actually listened to southeastern modeler's requests and produced cab and hood units that included SAL, SCL, ACL, FEC, and RF&P. A friend of mine and I lamented when LL was purchased by Walthers because we knew that southeastern models would not be on top of Walthers "to produce" list.
But back to the topic; I am curious about TCS's offerings as well. Their marketing videos are impressive.
Overall, it seems that now that when it comes to DCC and DCC-Sound.......the scenario is a win-win for modelers today.
hon30critterRecently I decided to add Loksound V5.0 decoders to my fleet of four P1K Canadian Pacific RDCs. All were purchased on eBay for what I believe were reasonable prices. Before spending the money, I contemplated selling the P1K RDCs and replacing them with Rapidos. The difference in cost, assuming that I could get the going price for P1K RDCs on eBay, was somewhere around $150.00 per unit to upgrade to the Rapidos. That includes the cost of buying the separate decoders for the P1K RDCs. I chose to stick with the P1K units despite the enhanced detailing of the Rapido units.
Okay, I just made a big liar out of myself! Some Rapido RDCs just came up on eBay for much lower than retail prices so I bought two of them. I will still keep a couple of my P1K RDCs and I will equip them with Loksound V5.0s.
Lesson to be learned: Don't ever trust my firm commitments ever again!!
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
It is the best of times in that the variety of models available and the detailing of those models is better than ever before. You just have to jump on them when you can to get the scarcer or rare roadname/paint job.
However, not all the electronics issues have been worked out, and as decoder versions have changed, the changes themselves can result in certain incompatibilities with the loco manufacturer's own electronics. There are indeed dcc models with sound that run fantastically well right out of the box without needing to make all kinds of adjustments, and then there are others that just do not, and I for one do not know enough to be able to adjust cv's enough to fix them and make them work better.
For me it is safer and easier to stick to mostly plain dc operation, excepting my son's few models, as the problematic engines allegedly are not failing in plain dc.