One model railroading channel's content I enjoy watching is Preformence Trains Inc. One thing about his videos I find, is that he enjoys installing better sound decorders.
In one video he mentioned he bought a DCC ready locomotives because he wanted to have the option of installing a better sound decoder and speaker, as he wasnt happy from experiance, with the sound quality the brand offered. I cant remember which one though.This makes me ask if, you know a certain make of decoder pre installed does not have the sound quality you want pre installed, maybe you should order DCC ready to not only save money, but save money to buy a better quality sound decoder?In Athearns "Ready To Roll," lineup, coming next year in 2021 (Nov.1st 2020 as of writing this post), are some new SD40-2s with Economi Sound. I like having motive power from defunct roads on my idea of a NBSR layout, but I am wondering if I will be happy with the Economi sound, or save myself the effort of finding out.Your opinions and Impute I wish to see.
For the record, this is the site for the Soundtraxx Econami decoder line
https://soundtraxx.com/products/econami-digital-sound-decoders
This is what I believe is going in the Athearn locomotives mentioned in this thread.
Good post. I like the idea of purchasing DCC ready units and installing my preferred set ups.
This is just my take: I am "picky" about certain sounds and lean heavily towards LokSound because of the user's ability to upload a wide variety of sound schemes, including new ones that are introduced. Plus, some of the aftermarket speaker enclosures being offered today deliver excellent performance. I've heard complaints about having to buy a Lok Programmer". I don't understand why as it's a one time purchase and much cheaper than a new Athearn Geneis diesel, LOL!
I've been asked why not just go with Soundtraxx. I agree that the Soundtraxx Tsu-2's sound really nice! But a sticking point that bugs me, which might seem silly, is the Tsu-2's air let-off or "pop off" which has bursts that are EXTREMELY short. Appropriate for brand new or freshly rebuilt units but not heavy diesel locomotives with several hundred thousand miles on them with worn components that are not replaced immediately by shop forces. SCL was notorious for "milking" as much as it could out of their units.
I spent a lot of time around prototype units and air let-off bursts were usually single, ranging from 1 to 3 seconds long.
Yes, I emailed soundtraxx about that before so hopefully they'll keep that in mind as they upgrade their sound-scheme library.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
And therein lies the rub, as they say. Even if Soundtraxx takes your advice and upgrades the sound library, you have to buy all new decoders for ones you already have. This is why I lean towards Loksound (in fact all my sound locos are Loksound except the MTH FAs I haven't changed out yet, and the Atlas Trainmaster, ditto. If a new sound set it released, or they add additional firmware features, I can just set the loco on the Lokprogrammer program track and update it, don't even have to open the shell.
At this point, if the loco comes with Loksound, I'll buy it with the decoder installed. Rapido doesn't make anything for me, yet, but I'd buy their DCC/sound versions. Atlas uses Loksound, I just bought a new run RS-3 with Loksound.
The only problem is, some brands don't offer the choice. So far, that hasn't been an issue - I don't just buy random locos, I only buy for my specific prototype and era, and I haven't missed out on anything by not buying a particular loco because it only came with a sound decoder I don't want. In other cases, waiting helps - not going into the whole "limited run" thing, but I got the Atlas Trainmaster with QSI for the price they were selling the DCC ready ones for, after they were sold out at Atlas. Same with the MTH FAs, the AB set with sound cost me what a non-sound set would cost - and both the A and B have sound and are powered, no dummies.
I have a large fleet yet to be equipped (and painted, for that matter), many produced before DCC - there is some tendency to avoid older models for some reason, but many are easy to convert and can be had for a fraction of the price of the latest runs. All will be getting Loksound decoders.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I walk both sides of this debate. Yes, I've installed dozens of sound decoders and speakers of my choosing, usually in older Proto, Atlas, Kato and some brass among others.
Recently I've been digging into some factory sound engines that I've had for some years and ditching the early Tsunami, QSI and BLI Paragon decoders and replacing these with mostly Loksound 5s but in some I've used Tsunami2s as well. I'm trying to like WOWsound but there's a few things that bug me about those.
When it comes to some of the newer engines, especially some of the Genesis and Rapido engines there's no way I would want to go digging into those, especially considering the lighting options and, say, in the case of the Rapido RS-11s it is a two hour task just to get the shell off.
I bought both my Genesis SDP45s with factory, Tsunami2 sound and they are excellent. These engines have a red or white Gyralight, number boards, headlights, ground lights (IIRC) rear markers. I know how much wiring is stuffed in there and for me to install all those options, keep everything neat and tidy and hope it all still functions after I stuff it all back into the shell is more than I care to mess with this late in the game.
The Rapido RS-11 even has gauge lights on the instrument stand operable using F6 IIRC.
At a minimum I might decide to pry one open to upgrade the speaker but even this is way down on my "to-do" list.
Antonio, I havent messed with the CVs on my SDP45s much but I do recall messing with my Tsunami2-EMD1s on some old Genesis F units I installed them in and I seem to recall I could select a "spitter/air dryer/poppet valve" that was more in line with what I also recall from the early EMDs and Alcos.
Maybe the EMD-2 sound set doesn't have this option. I, too, have no use for the pop-pop-pop spitter.
I do like some of the new random sounds and programming options on the recent Loksound 5 DCC decoder offers. The Lokprogrammer has been an excellent investment for me.
Good Luck, Ed
Engi1487This makes me ask if, you know a certain make of decoder pre installed does not have the sound quality you want pre installed, maybe you should order DCC ready to not only save money, but save money to buy a better quality sound decoder?
If you know that the quality of sound from a factory decoder installation is not to your liking, then I definitely think that you should not buy the factory sound equipped locomotive. However, if the factory is installing decoders with a proven track record, like Loksound or TCS, then I would buy the locomotive with sound installed.
Having said that, there is often a cost savings to be had by installing your own decoders, that is if you can get the desired DC locomotive for a reasonable price. Recently I decided to add Loksound V5.0 decoders to my fleet of four P1K Canadian Pacific RDCs. All were purchased on eBay for what I believe were reasonable prices. Before spending the money, I contemplated selling the P1K RDCs and replacing them with Rapidos. The difference in cost, assuming that I could get the going price for P1K RDCs on eBay, was somewhere around $150.00 per unit to upgrade to the Rapidos. That includes the cost of buying the separate decoders for the P1K RDCs. I chose to stick with the P1K units despite the enhanced detailing of the Rapido units. I know of other modellers who chose to upgrade. Personally, I think the P1K units look fine and run fine so I am happy with them. I'll spend some of the money 'saved' on passengers.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Personaly I like the basic sounds and doubt I will ever care about specific sounds. I am very happy with stock Soundtracs that come on some Bachman engines.
Can YOU really tell the difference? Some modelers can. I really can't, and so far my decision is to buy sound equipped engines, because the sound is good enough for me, and it's cheaper and easier than installing a separate sound decoder. So far, I've never swapped out one sound decoder for another.
It's a personal choice. I spend most of my effort on building detailed scenery.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasleyCan YOU really tell the difference?
Hi MisterBeasley,
That is a good point! I have a couple of really old Soundtraxx decoders that predate their Tsunamis, and they sound fine to me. The real issue for me is motor control, and, to a lesser extent, the ability to upgrade the software. The Loksounds provide both incredible motor control and excellent sound. For me, that is worth the money. Being able to install upgrades like their 'Full Throttle' control makes the investment very worthwhile.
Cheers!!
One problem you can run into by not buying factory-installed sound decoders are custom sounds made for that particular installation.
For example, I know that the BLI New Haven I-5 4-6-4 model uses a live recording of a real NH I-5 they got from a film. If I were to replace that decoder, I would have to use some other whistle. Same goes for their NH I-4 4-6-2 model that uses a recording of a real NH brass bell; I know because I rang it for their sound file.
Or take the Rapido FL9. It has a custom "3rd rail mode" that is not available from any 3rd party sound decoder.
So, yes, sometimes you can get a better sounding option vs. the factory one, but sometimes you lose out on certain sounds. YMMV.
The LokSound 5 and the Tsunami2 are probably the two best sound decoders on the market. Athearn installs the T2, and Walthers, Atlas, and Intermountain install the V5. I'm not sure what the other manufacturerers use.
I know the Athearn SD40 RTR has the Soundtraxx Econami, which has the same sound quality and most of, IMO, the important features that the T2 has. And the SD39/40/40-2 comes with dual sugar cube speakers installed.
IMO, its a matter of choosing what decoder you like, and when you buy a loco from a producer who has your nonfavorite decoder installed, buy that one DCC Ready.
I don't see the point of not buying a factory installed V5, just to then install it yourself. (BTW, I prefer the T2 or Econami).
- Douglas
All I can say is I heard the sound ideas from before DCC and some of the early DCC sound and motor control was not that great, but now things have changed. Also hearing ability goes down as you age for most people but even though mine has too, I started out with better hearing than most but even mine is now down to average mid 30's age range.
DoughlessThe LokSound 5 and the Tsunami2 are probably the two best sound decoders on the market. Athearn installs the T2, and Walthers, Atlas, and Intermountain install the V5. I'm not sure what the other manufacturerers use.
Douglas,
TCS Wow is also quite good. While I do like the Loksound decoder for diesels, they are still very limited on their US steam sound files; hence why I've gone with TCS WowSteam for my steam sound installations. And, like Loksound - TCS has excellent motor-control, which is far more important to me than sound.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
The Rapido FL9 is one you couldn't duplicate (though you can buy the decoder witht he sounds from Rapido). If the difference is just a whistle though - that's easy enough to fix, at least with Loksound. I've done it for my RS-3s. The v5 in the new Atlas model already has the correct horn as one of the options, that one was really easy to change, just one CV. But the standard version in the v4, at least, did not have an M3RT1 horn fitted, which is what I need. But a recording of that horn exists in Loksound's sound library, so swapping it in was easy. If the freely available v5 sound project already has it, that makes things easier, no need to create a custom project.
My PCM T-1s have had the sounds upgraded with some real recordings from AFT 1, formerly 2101. I didn't change the whistle, the multi-chime whistle used for the American Freedom Train was not one used by the T1s in service, and mine are in service units, not excursion. Possible some 4 years after I bought them because of Loksound decoders.
Unless the whistle or bell was a one of a kind, fitted ONLY to that one loco, odds are it exists in a recording and can be fitted to a decoder that allows updating of the sounds.
I think T2 has two dozen diesel horn options already loaded, and several prime movers. Of course, the goal is to get the right one, but the horn choices are already loaded. I assume its the same for steam/whistle.
Not wanting to go down the path of sound decoder preferences. Just wanted to make the point to the OP that I think the current run of factory installed sound decoders are the best that are out there. I don't think that buying a dcc ready loco is going to advance the cause very much in terms of sound quality.
Its just a matter of personal preferences or possibly wanting your fleet to have all of the same decoders.
Also, he mentioned the Athearn RTR SD39/40/40-2. The sound version comes with dual sugar cubes, which my understanding is that sugar cubes are highly desireable.
There's endless discussion about the finer points of sound. Unless YOU have personally heard the sound in question and found it wanting, then I would take what is said about various decoders with a large block of salt.
As for DCC-ready, any loco that runs on DC is potentially a few steps away from DCC-ready, if you have the chops to install your own decoders.
If you like to tinker with things, then Lok may be the way to go. Realistically, how many times will you swap a Lok decoder to a different loco so that it would need reloaded? On the other hand, Soundtraxx gives you multiple choices on the same decoder, so choosing different is just a few CVs away. Yes, different approaches and there is no real superiority of one versus the other IMO, it's what you subjectively prefer.
Stereo audio enthusiasts often spend thousands of dollars on equipment chasing some tiny difference in sound. It's probably a good things folks in our hobby can only drop a few hundred at a time, at most, chasing that same subjectively-determined difference.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
rrebell Personaly I like the basic sounds and doubt I will ever care about specific sounds. I am very happy with stock Soundtracs that come on some Bachman engines.
That's the canoe I'm in, more or less. I can't really tell the difference between different sounds from different locomotives. The only place I'd be a stickler is the few things that do sound different. Like I have a few Amtrak P42s and they make some noises that other locomotives don't make and they stand out.
LastspikemikeAs an afterthought, I have wondered about the clickety clack sounds in some decoders, Genesis particularly. I rather like that effect but what about welded rail? What about the joints sounds from the HO rails? Was the clickety clack just a left over artifact from recording the sound files from the original prototype recording? Did the software designer not want to bother clipping out those noises?
LOL. I have purchased about a dozen Genesis Sound locos during the year, Tsunami2.
CV153 controls the clickity clack. It gets set to 0 immediately.
And when I find any type of spitter valve CV, that goes to 0 too.
LastspikemikeIf you have the ear for fidelity, and most people actually do not, then those in car systems only sound decent if the car is parked. That's how those systems are engineered. Once on the move in car sound systems tend to sound the same: pretty bad. For the driver especially they are not worth buying.
It is also possible to vary the amplifier and equalizer dynamically (as with the old BSR equipment using a calibrated Mike and decaded pink-noise generation) to get similar effect. But this involves more cost and special processing, particularly if you want clean bass frequencies in a typical modern interior...
These approaches take advantage of the way the human perceptual system reacts to noise level and repetitive stimuli, like the 'reverse' of why we can listen to music on AM radio.
I did not see any indication on the Econami page about how the 16-bit files would need to be formatted and loaded to the devices. Anyone more attentive and knowledgeable -- please comment. I suspect there is a coming 'format war' as sound-decoder manufacturers preserve a natural interest in profit from making and editing proper files.
In my opinion, which many won't share, clickety-clack effect is a toy-train function unless relevant to the 'scale reality'... similar to steam chuffing that is not synchronized to speed and virtual load. I have a child's recording of 19 minutes of track noises including some crossing and double-crossover clatter that admittedly was recorded from inside a train (so you hear the wheels 'advertising' an upcoming event, and then hear it diminishing under the trailing wheels, which isn't precisely prototypical for watching from 'outside' but would correlate nicely to a cab or flatcar cam POV) and it should be possible to gin up a version of this to match a given track profile on a layout, with or without welded rail or whatever. Wonder who among us values 'that level' of audio fidelity added to version and age specificity of condensate spitter traps or turbo response?
Actually change the sounds? Not terribly often - unless someone makes new, updated recordings, or actually gets a recording of a previously unavailable loco so a "stand in" sound can be repalced by the "real" sound. It wasn't too long ago that ESU went on a big recording spree capturing all sorts of locos that either had poorer quality recordings or didn't even exist. Especially a lot of Alcos running on the D-L, which make the Alco lover in me very happy. Even more though, it's other features - like the Drive/Hold that came out well after the V4 decoders were released. Instead of a new decoder, a quick trip to the Lokprogrammer and bingo, the older decoders now had this neat new feature. ANd even more than either of these - there's never a stock issue - I want to put a decoder in a loco that needs and EMD 567 prime mover, well, no worries about that particualr Tsu2 being out of stock at my favorite retailer. Just take a blank Loksound decoder and load the appropriate EMD 567 sound file.
OvermodIn my opinion, which many won't share, clickety-clack effect is a toy-train function unless relevant to the 'scale reality'... similar to steam chuffing that is not synchronized to speed and virtual load
One reason I turn it off is because the cadence does not match the track joints on my layout.
Overmodand it should be possible to gin up a version of this to match a given track profile on a layout, with or without welded rail or whatever.
The effort required to learn how to gin it up is not worth the benefit of the ginning. And on a switching layout, or any layout with multiple turnouts, joint spacing varies.
OvermodWonder who among us values 'that level' of audio fidelity added to version and age specificity of condensate spitter traps or turbo response?
Put down a "No" for me. However, a good revving under heavy load before the train moves is a nice effect.
rrinkerI want to put a decoder in a loco that needs and EMD 567 prime mover, well, no worries about that particualr Tsu2 being out of stock at my favorite retailer. Just take a blank Loksound decoder and load the appropriate EMD 567 sound file.
... but this presupposes you have the specialized programming device(s), access to the correct 'bundled' sound files, and ideally the ability to access memory for some features without overwriting others. How many modelers here (let alone newbies!) have that equipment or the urge to acquire or even 'rent' it? I find myself hoping (against hope!) that NMRA can be convinced or inveigled into establishing open standards for sound formatting, so 'anyone's' recording of scarce engines or special conditions can be loaded to compatible decoders in addition to whatever span is in a manufacturer's can. I see no reason why 'proprietary' conversion couldn't be made by manufacturers, say by using a custom-built VM in 'the cloud' -- are there any projects along those lines that non-programmers might actually be able to use or even like?
Randy, as you may know but as a point of clarity, T2s have a number of versions. EMDs, ALCO, GEs.
I think the 567 is on the EMD 1st generation, and it has all of the 567 variations on it, IIRC. Same with the 645 decoders and the 710 decoder variations.
I think its Soundtraxx's way of competing with the Lokprogrammer idea. You have to buy several decoders to get all of the sounds, but its better than the alternative of having to buy one decoder for each PM.
To this we have to add the note in the Rapido manual that they really, really don't advise swapping out 'their' decoder under any circumstances. This poses issues for anyone not satisfied with what they provide, probably including relative sound levels or added functions. I have to wonder how many other manufacturers might follow suit...
LastspikemikeAs for the incipient discussion by analogy to in-car sound systems let me take you for a ride some day and you'll see what I'm talking about. There are passenger grab handles in all of my cars....
(Now for cars that get going real fast in a straight line, which is a very different design exercise from yours, what I said does still apply up to 185mph on the kind of good road surface you need for that. Faster than that I haven't tested...)
This is a great topic. I'm all for this approach of installing your own sound decoders.
It will help maintain the market for "DCC Ready" (read DC) locomotives.
As for car stereos, they are kind of like boom boxes....... I don't listen to music in the car much.
My car has grab handles too, and it is a turbo charged, 6 cylinder, 7 passenger, 4800 lb, all wheel drive station wagon, that turns 15 sec 1/4 mile times and does 0-60 in 5 seconds.
My "good" stereo is in the train room.......
With the 1700 pieces of vinyl.
I do have plans to experiment with some layout based sound effects.......
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALMy car has grab handles too, and it is a turbo charged, 6 cylinder, 7 passenger, 4800 lb, all wheel drive station wagon, that turns 15 sec 1/4 mile times and does 0-60 in 5 seconds.
Overmod ATLANTIC CENTRAL My car has grab handles too, and it is a turbo charged, 6 cylinder, 7 passenger, 4800 lb, all wheel drive station wagon, that turns 15 sec 1/4 mile times and does 0-60 in 5 seconds. Now you've gone and made me chip a tooth in Flex envy. You really should reconsider, as my teeth will only be getting older and more frangible...
ATLANTIC CENTRAL My car has grab handles too, and it is a turbo charged, 6 cylinder, 7 passenger, 4800 lb, all wheel drive station wagon, that turns 15 sec 1/4 mile times and does 0-60 in 5 seconds.
Now you've gone and made me chip a tooth in Flex envy. You really should reconsider, as my teeth will only be getting older and more frangible...
There was a guy on Youtube a while back who was turning 12's with his Eccoboost FLEX just by remaping the engine computer.......
The looks on the faces of mid range Lexus and BMW owners when you beat them is precious.
It is not the fastest car I have ever owned, but it is the most comfortible and practical one that will do 15's.
And the Stereo is ok......
Still lov'n the FLEX.
tstage Doughless The LokSound 5 and the Tsunami2 are probably the two best sound decoders on the market. Athearn installs the T2, and Walthers, Atlas, and Intermountain install the V5. I'm not sure what the other manufacturerers use. Douglas, TCS Wow is also quite good. While I do like the Loksound decoder for diesels, they are still very limited on their US steam sound files; hence why I've gone with TCS WowSteam for my steam sound installations. And, like Loksound - TCS has excellent motor-control, which is far more important to me than sound. Tom
Doughless The LokSound 5 and the Tsunami2 are probably the two best sound decoders on the market. Athearn installs the T2, and Walthers, Atlas, and Intermountain install the V5. I'm not sure what the other manufacturerers use.
i have 30 big boys & about 1/2 of them are rivarossi red box versions & they all have tcs wow sound
Doughless rrinker I want to put a decoder in a loco that needs and EMD 567 prime mover, well, no worries about that particualr Tsu2 being out of stock at my favorite retailer. Just take a blank Loksound decoder and load the appropriate EMD 567 sound file. Randy, as you may know but as a point of clarity, T2s have a number of versions. EMDs, ALCO, GEs. I think the 567 is on the EMD 1st generation, and it has all of the 567 variations on it, IIRC. Same with the 645 decoders and the 710 decoder variations. I think its Soundtraxx's way of competing with the Lokprogrammer idea. You have to buy several decoders to get all of the sounds, but its better than the alternative of having to buy one decoder for each PM.
rrinker I want to put a decoder in a loco that needs and EMD 567 prime mover, well, no worries about that particualr Tsu2 being out of stock at my favorite retailer. Just take a blank Loksound decoder and load the appropriate EMD 567 sound file.
Right, but it doesn;t really change anything. If the dealer is out of stock of Tsu2 EMD FIrst Gen, well, no installing sound in my F7 today. While combining many variations in one reduces the number, you still have the various form factors. So EMF first, second, and third gen, GE first and second, Alco, and Misc. That's 7, times say 3 basic form factors - board replacement, wired, and 21 pin. 21 skus for the line. Not counting the micro size variations, etc. Loksound - 3 skus, for the 3 form factors. They do have more, because they have broken out the ones that basically just do DCC and the ones that also do Marklin mfx and other non-DCC protocols for European users. But there's basically just one sku per form factor.
ANd the better dealers will install your chocie fo sound projects befors shipping, so you can take advantage of this without buying the Lokprogrammer, but really, it's much faster to configure function control beyond the basics using the Lokprogrammer vs using JMRI and your system's program track.