Is it just me or does anyone else feel let down with walthers locomotives and rolling stock? I feel like the $139 price tag on the mainline locos are a bit much for they quality you get. I mean no airhoses? Ditch lights?
I know you can find them on some hobby sights for under $100 but most places still ask $120. I had 2 mainline locos, a CNW SD60 in zito yello and a UP AC4400. Both ran amazing but I felt let down with the detail on both.
Granted the AC4400 had dich lights but nothing else. I felt like I was sold a trainline in a mainline box. Ended up selling the SD60 after I found an older athearn one for $50 and had much better detail.
I paid $125 at my LHS for the SD60 ( with a 15% off sale ) and $130 for a Genesis GP7u shipped to my door. I feel like it's just worth it to go find an older athearn.
Mainline is their low end stuff.
Mainline is midgrade, trainline is the low end stuff. I would compare maineline to RTR and RTR blows it out of the water. For example, this is an athearn rtr model
and a mainline
Lastspikemike Proto is quite a bit more expensive than Mainline.
Proto is quite a bit more expensive than Mainline.
I was reading that tread and actualy made me think of this. I like their proto stuff I feel like they just ask too much for models that arent on par with other manufactures
You can buy detail kits for your engines. I don't buy mainline because the lack of detail and the fact I can no longer add the detail because of a medical issue with my hands.
This is why mainline engines are around $139.00 and proto are about $250.00.
Also do your research before buying anything, know what are buying, price, etc.
Dave
A 1956 American Flyer GP7 would cost $240 in today's money.
Bellyaching about a model with sound and DCC for under $200 is just silly.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
I recently bought a few of the mainline SD60s, and ES44s. I will add the mu hoses and sun shades later. But I plan on having the mainline's in a consist, with my more detailed locos (Athearn Genesis) up front. So it wont matter much to me and saving a few bucks is good.
And yes Athearn RTR has stepped up in detail and have good decoders at a good price. I bought some of the Sd40s.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Bayfield Transfer Railway Bellyaching about a model with sound and DCC for under $200 is just silly.
Motley And yes Athearn RTR has stepped up in detail and have good decoders at a good price. I bought some of the Sd40s.
Ringo58 Bayfield Transfer Railway Bellyaching about a model with sound and DCC for under $200 is just silly. I'm not complaining about the price, it's the level of detail you get for the price. Example above is 2 models I bought at around the same time. The sd60 from walthers: $125 (With 15% off) The RTR sd39 : $90 shipped to my door. What I'm saying is the level of detail isn't up to par with the price unlike other brands. Also speaking in DC not DCC/sound.
rrebell What amazes me is the level of detail and DCC and sound in Bachmanns S4 for under $70 at a retail place, not worth it to add a decoder with sound to some other DCC ready engines.
What amazes me is the level of detail and DCC and sound in Bachmanns S4 for under $70 at a retail place, not worth it to add a decoder with sound to some other DCC ready engines.
Ive been thinking about one of those...
One wonders what has to give to achieve a price like that - the horrid Digitrax 8 bit sound decoders are about $40, so they're doing the shell and drive for $30? Granted, this is a special closeout - I see most other road names are $100 for the same loco, and original MSRP was $144, which seems much more reasonable.
If anything, I'd go with the DC version and put my own decoder in it so I know it would have a quality decoder at least. There are just too many compromises on these "value" decoders to make them much of a value. They are, I feel, doing to DCC and sound what cheap train sets did for the hobby in general - attract new people who then discard it out of frustration rather than move up.
Walthers, it has always seemed to me, follows the "attempt to fool the consumer" method of marketing by setting really high MSRPs on their products and then selling for a substantial discount. JC Penney, to their detriment, proved this is how the typical consumer works. Everyday price $5 doesn't sell as well as $10 but on sale 50% off. I guess math is just too hard for most people.
But wow, the price for their new name train. Glad I don't model the 60's Santa Fe in an area that would need that train.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinkerEveryday price $5 doesn't sell as well as $10 but on sale 50% off. I guess math is just too hard for most people.
It's the same with selling tires, Randy. Ask 10 people which of these deals sounds better?
"25% off all tires"...or..."Buy 3 tires and get the 4th FREE"
At least 5 out of 10 folks will tell you the latter - even though it's the exact same price - i.e. assuming you purchase a set of 4 tires.
Advertising anymore is just "number games". If an advertiser can get your ear into thinking your getting a deal out of it (and you haven't done your homework, or thought through the math) - they've won that battle.
Anyhow, back to the topic at hand. I have one of the newer undecorated Walthers (Mainline) SW1 switchers. It runs and pulls quite well and has some good detailing, which Walthers leaves off on the undecorated shell.
MSRP for those were $100. I picked it up for $83 and installed a TCS DP2X decoder into it. I'm very happy with the purchase.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Again, KNOW WHAT YOU ARE BUYING, IS IT DCC,DC, OR DCC READY. IS IT DETAILED THOUGH FOR YOU?
If you do your homework before buying you will never be disappointed.
Well some are saying Walthers motor and mechanism is as smooth as you get...that there have been less issues than with some others. For me Walthers diesels have been just fine.
If it is a model or paint scheme you have to have...they are fine.
John
DAVID FORTNEY Again, KNOW WHAT YOU ARE BUYING, IS IT DCC,DC, OR DCC READY. IS IT DETAILED THOUGH FOR YOU? If you do your homework before buying you will never be disappointed. Dave
I believe you misread the original post. I know what I bought. all I'm saying is the detail is not up to par with other manufacturer. I know what I bought was DCC ready and I did my homework.
PRR8259 Well some are saying Walthers motor and mechanism is as smooth as you get
Well some are saying Walthers motor and mechanism is as smooth as you get
I agree. I wish I could take my genesis shells and put them on a walthers chassis.
tstage rrinker Everyday price $5 doesn't sell as well as $10 but on sale 50% off. I guess math is just too hard for most people. It's the same with selling tires, Randy. Ask 10 people which of these deals sounds better? "25% off all tires"...or..."Buy 3 tires and get the 4th FREE" At least 5 out of 10 folks will tell you the latter - even though it's the exact same price - i.e. assuming you purchase a set of 4 tires. Advertising anymore is just "number games". If an advertiser can get your ear into thinking your getting a deal out of it (and you haven't done your homework, or thought through the math) - they've won that battle. Anyhow, back to the topic at hand. I have one of the newer undecorated Walthers (Mainline) SW1 switchers. It runs and pulls quite well and has some good detailing, which Walthers leaves off on the undecorated shell. MSRP for those were $100. I picked it up for $83 and installed a TCS DP2X decoder into it. I'm very happy with the purchase. Tom
rrinker Everyday price $5 doesn't sell as well as $10 but on sale 50% off. I guess math is just too hard for most people.
25% of all tires is the better deal. The "buy 3, get one free" only applies to those who are going to buy a complete set. If you only need one, it's no deal for you.
Jeff
Jeff,
I believe I alluded to that in my "i.e. assuming you purchase a set of 4 tires" statement.
Ringo58 DAVID FORTNEY Again, KNOW WHAT YOU ARE BUYING, IS IT DCC,DC, OR DCC READY. IS IT DETAILED THOUGH FOR YOU? If you do your homework before buying you will never be disappointed. Dave I believe you misread the original post. I know what I bought. all I'm saying is the detail is not up to par with other manufacturer. I know what I bought was DCC ready and I did my homework.
so you're ********* that a $100 locomotive has less detail than a $200 locomotive?
Bayfield Transfer Railway Ringo58 DAVID FORTNEY Again, KNOW WHAT YOU ARE BUYING, IS IT DCC,DC, OR DCC READY. IS IT DETAILED THOUGH FOR YOU? If you do your homework before buying you will never be disappointed. Dave I believe you misread the original post. I know what I bought. all I'm saying is the detail is not up to par with other manufacturer. I know what I bought was DCC ready and I did my homework. so you're ******** that a $100 locomotive has less detail than a $200 locomotive?
so you're ******** that a $100 locomotive has less detail than a $200 locomotive?
I read it more as he was saying the detail of a $100 locomotive didn't compare to the detail of another manufacturer's $100 locomotive.
Bayfield Transfer Railway Ringo58 DAVID FORTNEY Again, KNOW WHAT YOU ARE BUYING, IS IT DCC,DC, OR DCC READY. IS IT DETAILED THOUGH FOR YOU? If you do your homework before buying you will never be disappointed. Dave I believe you misread the original post. I know what I bought. all I'm saying is the detail is not up to par with other manufacturer. I know what I bought was DCC ready and I did my homework. so you're ********* that a $100 locomotive has less detail than a $200 locomotive?
so you're misunderstanding my post? I'm not sure why you're being so hostile. I just wanted to. voice my opinion and see if any body else felt the same.
Did I ever once say that I didn't know why a mainline didn't have the same detail as a proto? No I didn't. I'm saying if you looked at a $100 Walthers, and a $100 athearn or Atlas, the latter would have better detail. No need to get upset. Thrn I said I liked their drives and wish I could stick a genesis shell on them? I really think you need to slow down and read a post better before you get upset.
LastspikemikeWalthers Proto is supposed to be no better than those older Lifelike products.
Clarification: No better than the same Proto 2000 line under Life-Like. Like Walthers, Life-Like also had lower-quality and less detailed lines. However, they didn't come up to the same standards as the Proto 2000 line - both mechanically and in detail.
Ringo58 PRR8259 Well some are saying Walthers motor and mechanism is as smooth as you get I agree. I wish I could take my genesis shells and put them on a walthers chassis.
And there's your answer right there. Walthers seems interested in giving you a good loco under the hood at this price point. If the consumer wants to upgrade the detail later, that's always an option.
However, if you go cheap on the chassis and put the money into detailing, then you may be buying something that will cost a lot more to upgrade if dissatisfied. Nothing much you can do except put another chassis under it or do a rebuild so costly you might as well start over by buying new - after some research to ensure you're getting what you want.
As with cars and truck (in 1:1), I'd rather have something reliable and performance oriented than lush with luxury and bells and whistles. But if I did want those bells and whistles, I'd be prepared to pay to combine those with performance.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Funny thing about the SD60, it used to be a Proto 2000 model with as much detail as they could fit on it. All the mounting holes are still there.
The SD60M was $140.00 MSRP back in 2002 when it was released. Inflation brings that up to $201 in today's value. You can get the grab iron kit for $10, and the lift rings and pilot details will likely cost under $50. When you put it into perspective, the value is basically the same as always. The problem is a lot of us are stuck thinking in 2000 dollars instead of 2020 dollars, so things seem more expensive than we think they should be, but they really aren't.
_________________________________________________________________
Hence my comment about the 1956 American Flyer GP7.
Ringo, I understand what your saying and what we are talking about are mid-level locomotives and with Walthers Mainline and Atlas Trainman as well as the ScaleTrains Operator line, the value is with "what's under the hood". You get the best mechanisms all three have to offer, the same used in their Proto, Master and Rivitcounter lines but you get shells that you must detail to your level of taste. OTOH with Athearn RTR you get a super detailed shell minus the cab interior and treaded walkway ( on most, I think the SD60 and SD45T-2 have the tread ) but, you get the standard RTR motor that you can upgrade with the Genesis motor upgrade kit for about the same cost or a little less than the detail kits for the others.
Some don't mind the detailing or even running them without detailing, they are more happy with the way they run. To others it's about the way they look and the time and expense of not having to detail them and they are happy with the RTR motor or will upgrade it later. That's the compromise you have to make at that price level or upgrade to the Proto, Master Line, Rivitcounter or Genesis lines to get it all.
For me I would rather have the detail done for me unless I couldn't get what I wanted because it was only available in the Mainline or Trainman lines.
Ralph
Darth Santa Fe Funny thing about the SD60, it used to be a Proto 2000 model with as much detail as they could fit on it. All the mounting holes are still there. The SD60M was $140.00 MSRP back in 2002 when it was released. Inflation brings that up to $201 in today's value. You can get the grab iron kit for $10, and the lift rings and pilot details will likely cost under $50. When you put it into perspective, the value is basically the same as always. The problem is a lot of us are stuck thinking in 2000 dollars instead of 2020 dollars, so things seem more expensive than we think they should be, but they really aren't.
I'm 21 and got back into the hobby in 2019 so all I think is 2020 money. I guess when I think about it, the athearn models I picked for cheap up were a few years old at the time. I just felt like the mechanisms were so good that I expected more from the detail. My walthers units are my smoothest running locomotives along with my p2k SD7. That think creeps so slow youd barley notice it was moving.
I'm going to throw an idea out there.
Does the word "quality" really apply to the level of detail a model has?
OR, does it apply more to how well the manufacturer designed and assembled the model at whatever "detail level" they felt their price point would support?
If I buy a base model FORD FLEX and a fully loaded FORD FLEX LIMITED w/eccoboost, both vehicles are the same "quality". They are built on the same line, by the same workers, with largely the same parts. One costs $37,000, the other costs nearly $50,000.
The $50,000 one comes with lots of extra "features", more HP, all wheel drive, it parks itself, it has in dash navigation, and a list of other bells and whistles not on the lesser priced model.
The word you are really looking for here is "value". You feel the Walthers loco was not a good value compared to the other product.
But here is the thing, detail levels on these models can be subjective. So unless we are comparing two models of the same loco, made by different companies, it is not really a fair comparison. I do understand in the one case you were comparing the same model by Wathers vs Athearn.
And, don't expect every loco, or piece of rolling stock in a given series from a manufacturer to have what you consider the same level of detail.
Judge each brand, and each piece they make, on its own merits. And decide if that item is a good "value" for you.
Sheldon
Tell that to JD Power and Consumer Reports, where sister vehicles built ont he same assmebly line and just get different badges put on them get vastly different ratings.
But really, unless you get one made Friday afternoon before a long weekend, if it's built ont he same line, using the same parts, by the same people - it has the same quality. Amount of detail has no bearing on it.
Quality, for a model - is more in the motor and drive. Just because all the lift rings aren't indicidually installed doesn't really make it lesser quality, it's just lesser detailed. All the detail, even the stuff you can't see, on Rapido locos wouldn't mean a thing if they slapped a $10 drive under it. I can add a dress up kit with details to my fairly plain Stewart F units, that's not even expensive. But if I had to repalce the drive - that gets expensive. Luckily Stewart drives are quite good, Kato or Buhler motored ones.