Well, I guess EMD SD40 has experience with more Walthers engines than me. Very sorry to hear of the problems with them.
John
No a GEVO is a
maxman Is that a steam engine? Seems to me that if you are going to publicly criticize a company or product you should be pretty darn sure what you're talking about first. Just an old guys opinion.
Is that a steam engine?
No a GEVO is a Teir 4 Diesel locomotive built by GE. Theres too many models to keep track of and I prefer EMD stuff. And I have had multiple walthers units with hours of run time on them. And I'm not criticizing them. I like their stuff, was only talking about the detail on them. Did you read the whole thread?
Ringo58 I'm not even sure it was an AC4400 maybe an ES4400. I don't care for GE stuff so I tend to stay away. All I know is that it's a UP GEVO
I'm not even sure it was an AC4400 maybe an ES4400. I don't care for GE stuff so I tend to stay away. All I know is that it's a UP GEVO
csxns Ringo58 I'm not even sure it was an AC4400 maybe an ES4400. I don't care for GE stuff so I tend to stay away. All I know is that it's a UP GEVO Thinks,saw some at the LHS on sale if the trucks come off i think i will pass on them.
Thinks,saw some at the LHS on sale if the trucks come off i think i will pass on them.
Just ask to open them up first. It was a really easy fix, but still not somthing that should have to be done right out of the box. But they run very nice
Ringo58I'm not even sure it was an AC4400 maybe an ES4400. I don't care for GE stuff so I tend to stay away. All I know is that it's a UP GEVO
Russell
Ringo58 walthers AC4400
EMDSD40 When it comes to quality, I place more emphasis on the running gear than detail parts. A good quality and accurate paint job is also part of the equation. As far as Walthers specifically my experience has been less than positive. I will start with the early version of the 130 foot TT. Spent two years trying to get that working and gave up. Now it is a well known fact that had issues from the get go. Hundreds of dollars wasted, not to mention the time. It now resides in it's box under the benchwork. I do like the modern diesels and the family really picked up on that the past two Christmas holidays gifting me 15 of the EMDSD70ace locomotives. Everyone out of the box needed something repaired be it handrails, couplers or snowplow. These issues should have been caught in final QC before shipment. The most trouble I had was a UP unit that spit and sputtered down the track. Rather than return it ,I completely disassembled it for repair. What I found was extremely flimsy wipers on the wheels, wiring being 2 or 3 strands at best,wiring pinched in the weight, and loose clips on the PC board. Not to mention the truck assy was packed solid in grease as front wheel bearings on a 1960's car. So much for minimal lubrication. I was able to carefully reform the wipers and repair the wiring resulting in a decent running engine. Let me repeat these parts can very easily be broken...be extremely careful if you attempt repair. Through the years I've had issues with warped plastic frames and parts on autoracks and depressed center flat cars. They did replace 4 of the autoracks years ago. I have 300+ locomotives and 500 freight cars of various manufacturers. Experience with Athearn, Kato, Atlas, BLI, Accurail, P2K, Scale Trains and Roundhouse have been more positive across the board for roughly 45 years. At this point in my life I don't see purchasing much more of anything so it is what it is. Again these are my experiences and hopefully others find their purchases to be trouble free and feel it was money well spent.
When it comes to quality, I place more emphasis on the running gear than detail parts. A good quality and accurate paint job is also part of the equation. As far as Walthers specifically my experience has been less than positive. I will start with the early version of the 130 foot TT. Spent two years trying to get that working and gave up. Now it is a well known fact that had issues from the get go. Hundreds of dollars wasted, not to mention the time. It now resides in it's box under the benchwork. I do like the modern diesels and the family really picked up on that the past two Christmas holidays gifting me 15 of the EMDSD70ace locomotives. Everyone out of the box needed something repaired be it handrails, couplers or snowplow. These issues should have been caught in final QC before shipment. The most trouble I had was a UP unit that spit and sputtered down the track. Rather than return it ,I completely disassembled it for repair. What I found was extremely flimsy wipers on the wheels, wiring being 2 or 3 strands at best,wiring pinched in the weight, and loose clips on the PC board. Not to mention the truck assy was packed solid in grease as front wheel bearings on a 1960's car. So much for minimal lubrication. I was able to carefully reform the wipers and repair the wiring resulting in a decent running engine. Let me repeat these parts can very easily be broken...be extremely careful if you attempt repair. Through the years I've had issues with warped plastic frames and parts on autoracks and depressed center flat cars. They did replace 4 of the autoracks years ago. I have 300+ locomotives and 500 freight cars of various manufacturers. Experience with Athearn, Kato, Atlas, BLI, Accurail, P2K, Scale Trains and Roundhouse have been more positive across the board for roughly 45 years. At this point in my life I don't see purchasing much more of anything so it is what it is. Again these are my experiences and hopefully others find their purchases to be trouble free and feel it was money well spent.
I got a walthers AC4400 for christmas and the rear truck was dangling by the wires was able to fix it in 5 min but thats somthing that I shouldn't have to do. Especially when my family bought it for me.
Douglas--
Well, hate to say it, but those are all contributing reasons to why I've switched to steam power only. Granted, with steam power a certain amount of tinkering is often expected anyway, and if I'm going to have to do that, well, I figured I might as well just have steam power.
My son has Gensis 2.0 diesels, and indeed they are excellent.
PRR8259 I just recently sold a (practically brand new) Genesis GP-7 on Ebay. It was a version from a few years back, and it ran poorly...very noisy motor and/or gears. Buyer still hasn't given me feedback, but it was indeed mint. John
I just recently sold a (practically brand new) Genesis GP-7 on Ebay. It was a version from a few years back, and it ran poorly...very noisy motor and/or gears. Buyer still hasn't given me feedback, but it was indeed mint.
Athearn has switched to LED lighting, finally, which has allowed me to begin purchasing Athearn models whereas I never did before.
Genesis has been hit and miss as far as noise. Both motor noise and in the front truck tower. While a motor noise may eventually break in, I have found that there is not much solution to a noisy truck tower, short of swapping out worm gears with another unit and getting lucky that it fixes the noise.
Now after purchasing a Genesis diesel, I immediately run it and check for excessive noise. If it stays noisy after a few minutes on the test track, it gets immediately returned back to the seller under their return policy. I'm not chasing down noises with a $250 detailed-fragile loco.
- Douglas
I'd be interested if Walthers would make D&RGW GP30 but so far nothing ... walthers runs are few and far between as well so I'm hoping ScaleTrains or Athearn Genesis does a high fidelity GP30.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
OK, I've owned the older Proto 2000 SD60M, as BNSF #9290, and I've seen and test run the newer Walthers version and they are NOT the same, or even close. The newer Walthers engines run significantly better than the earlier versions of the "same" model, and they all are heavy and pull like crazy, both new and old. If you search online, the SD60M at one point was the pulling champion of HO diesel models and is still up near the top...
Detail on the new ones was a little on the light side for me, which is partly why I didn't buy the newest version, and I've since switched to all steam.
However, I have owned several recent Walthers GP-30's AND F-7's and I can tell you they are significantly better (ran significantly better) than earlier efforts (I did own several earlier LL Proto GP-30's)! No, Walthers does NOT go for Genesis level detail. Instead, they actually find middle of the road versions they can do that are actually pretty "correct" without adding all the details that Athearn puts on a Genesis level model.
Some people don't like the lack of spare parts from Walthers, and I can't help you there.
My 2c.
DoughlessI'd prefer to have the great smooth and quiet power train over the detailed shell.
+1
Me too.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
More reason for why Walthers gives you a top quality mechanism first...
Back in the day when you often built your own, the admonition was to get the loco running right before you started adding detail so there is no lengthy pawing over of the details, which were to be added after proper operation was achieved. Given Walthers long history and its ethos, I doesn't surprise me they still emphasize this approach to value and quality.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Doughless I'd prefer to have the great smooth and quiet power train over the detailed shell.
You and me both, Douglas. You can have the most prototype-looking locomotive ever produced. However, if it doesn't run well...then I have no use for it on my layout. A poor running locomotive only leads to a frustrating experience.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I'd prefer to have the great smooth and quiet power train over the detailed shell.
Maybe some companies are focusing on drive train and others focus more on the shell details.
rrinker Tell that to JD Power and Consumer Reports, where sister vehicles built ont he same assmebly line and just get different badges put on them get vastly different ratings. But really, unless you get one made Friday afternoon before a long weekend, if it's built ont he same line, using the same parts, by the same people - it has the same quality. Amount of detail has no bearing on it. Quality, for a model - is more in the motor and drive. Just because all the lift rings aren't indicidually installed doesn't really make it lesser quality, it's just lesser detailed. All the detail, even the stuff you can't see, on Rapido locos wouldn't mean a thing if they slapped a $10 drive under it. I can add a dress up kit with details to my fairly plain Stewart F units, that's not even expensive. But if I had to repalce the drive - that gets expensive. Luckily Stewart drives are quite good, Kato or Buhler motored ones. --Randy
Tell that to JD Power and Consumer Reports, where sister vehicles built ont he same assmebly line and just get different badges put on them get vastly different ratings.
But really, unless you get one made Friday afternoon before a long weekend, if it's built ont he same line, using the same parts, by the same people - it has the same quality. Amount of detail has no bearing on it.
Quality, for a model - is more in the motor and drive. Just because all the lift rings aren't indicidually installed doesn't really make it lesser quality, it's just lesser detailed. All the detail, even the stuff you can't see, on Rapido locos wouldn't mean a thing if they slapped a $10 drive under it. I can add a dress up kit with details to my fairly plain Stewart F units, that's not even expensive. But if I had to repalce the drive - that gets expensive. Luckily Stewart drives are quite good, Kato or Buhler motored ones.
--Randy
Not to go too far afield here, but Consumer Reports? Really? That organization has so much built in bias it is unbelieveable. It does not matter how good a car is at what the manufacturer intended it to be, or how good it is for some people's needs, if it is not what Consumer Reports thinks a car should be, it gets a bad rating.
Sheldon
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I'm going to throw an idea out there.
Does the word "quality" really apply to the level of detail a model has?
OR, does it apply more to how well the manufacturer designed and assembled the model at whatever "detail level" they felt their price point would support?
If I buy a base model FORD FLEX and a fully loaded FORD FLEX LIMITED w/eccoboost, both vehicles are the same "quality". They are built on the same line, by the same workers, with largely the same parts. One costs $37,000, the other costs nearly $50,000.
The $50,000 one comes with lots of extra "features", more HP, all wheel drive, it parks itself, it has in dash navigation, and a list of other bells and whistles not on the lesser priced model.
The word you are really looking for here is "value". You feel the Walthers loco was not a good value compared to the other product.
But here is the thing, detail levels on these models can be subjective. So unless we are comparing two models of the same loco, made by different companies, it is not really a fair comparison. I do understand in the one case you were comparing the same model by Wathers vs Athearn.
And, don't expect every loco, or piece of rolling stock in a given series from a manufacturer to have what you consider the same level of detail.
Judge each brand, and each piece they make, on its own merits. And decide if that item is a good "value" for you.
Darth Santa Fe Funny thing about the SD60, it used to be a Proto 2000 model with as much detail as they could fit on it. All the mounting holes are still there. The SD60M was $140.00 MSRP back in 2002 when it was released. Inflation brings that up to $201 in today's value. You can get the grab iron kit for $10, and the lift rings and pilot details will likely cost under $50. When you put it into perspective, the value is basically the same as always. The problem is a lot of us are stuck thinking in 2000 dollars instead of 2020 dollars, so things seem more expensive than we think they should be, but they really aren't.
Funny thing about the SD60, it used to be a Proto 2000 model with as much detail as they could fit on it. All the mounting holes are still there.
The SD60M was $140.00 MSRP back in 2002 when it was released. Inflation brings that up to $201 in today's value. You can get the grab iron kit for $10, and the lift rings and pilot details will likely cost under $50. When you put it into perspective, the value is basically the same as always. The problem is a lot of us are stuck thinking in 2000 dollars instead of 2020 dollars, so things seem more expensive than we think they should be, but they really aren't.
I'm 21 and got back into the hobby in 2019 so all I think is 2020 money. I guess when I think about it, the athearn models I picked for cheap up were a few years old at the time. I just felt like the mechanisms were so good that I expected more from the detail. My walthers units are my smoothest running locomotives along with my p2k SD7. That think creeps so slow youd barley notice it was moving.
Ringo, I understand what your saying and what we are talking about are mid-level locomotives and with Walthers Mainline and Atlas Trainman as well as the ScaleTrains Operator line, the value is with "what's under the hood". You get the best mechanisms all three have to offer, the same used in their Proto, Master and Rivitcounter lines but you get shells that you must detail to your level of taste. OTOH with Athearn RTR you get a super detailed shell minus the cab interior and treaded walkway ( on most, I think the SD60 and SD45T-2 have the tread ) but, you get the standard RTR motor that you can upgrade with the Genesis motor upgrade kit for about the same cost or a little less than the detail kits for the others.
Some don't mind the detailing or even running them without detailing, they are more happy with the way they run. To others it's about the way they look and the time and expense of not having to detail them and they are happy with the RTR motor or will upgrade it later. That's the compromise you have to make at that price level or upgrade to the Proto, Master Line, Rivitcounter or Genesis lines to get it all.
For me I would rather have the detail done for me unless I couldn't get what I wanted because it was only available in the Mainline or Trainman lines.
Ralph
Hence my comment about the 1956 American Flyer GP7.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
_________________________________________________________________
Ringo58 PRR8259 Well some are saying Walthers motor and mechanism is as smooth as you get I agree. I wish I could take my genesis shells and put them on a walthers chassis.
PRR8259 Well some are saying Walthers motor and mechanism is as smooth as you get
Well some are saying Walthers motor and mechanism is as smooth as you get
I agree. I wish I could take my genesis shells and put them on a walthers chassis.
And there's your answer right there. Walthers seems interested in giving you a good loco under the hood at this price point. If the consumer wants to upgrade the detail later, that's always an option.
However, if you go cheap on the chassis and put the money into detailing, then you may be buying something that will cost a lot more to upgrade if dissatisfied. Nothing much you can do except put another chassis under it or do a rebuild so costly you might as well start over by buying new - after some research to ensure you're getting what you want.
As with cars and truck (in 1:1), I'd rather have something reliable and performance oriented than lush with luxury and bells and whistles. But if I did want those bells and whistles, I'd be prepared to pay to combine those with performance.
LastspikemikeWalthers Proto is supposed to be no better than those older Lifelike products.
Clarification: No better than the same Proto 2000 line under Life-Like. Like Walthers, Life-Like also had lower-quality and less detailed lines. However, they didn't come up to the same standards as the Proto 2000 line - both mechanically and in detail.
Bayfield Transfer Railway Ringo58 DAVID FORTNEY Again, KNOW WHAT YOU ARE BUYING, IS IT DCC,DC, OR DCC READY. IS IT DETAILED THOUGH FOR YOU? If you do your homework before buying you will never be disappointed. Dave I believe you misread the original post. I know what I bought. all I'm saying is the detail is not up to par with other manufacturer. I know what I bought was DCC ready and I did my homework. so you're ********* that a $100 locomotive has less detail than a $200 locomotive?
Ringo58 DAVID FORTNEY Again, KNOW WHAT YOU ARE BUYING, IS IT DCC,DC, OR DCC READY. IS IT DETAILED THOUGH FOR YOU? If you do your homework before buying you will never be disappointed. Dave I believe you misread the original post. I know what I bought. all I'm saying is the detail is not up to par with other manufacturer. I know what I bought was DCC ready and I did my homework.
DAVID FORTNEY Again, KNOW WHAT YOU ARE BUYING, IS IT DCC,DC, OR DCC READY. IS IT DETAILED THOUGH FOR YOU? If you do your homework before buying you will never be disappointed. Dave
Again, KNOW WHAT YOU ARE BUYING, IS IT DCC,DC, OR DCC READY. IS IT DETAILED THOUGH FOR YOU?
If you do your homework before buying you will never be disappointed.
Dave
I believe you misread the original post. I know what I bought. all I'm saying is the detail is not up to par with other manufacturer. I know what I bought was DCC ready and I did my homework.
so you're ********* that a $100 locomotive has less detail than a $200 locomotive?
so you're misunderstanding my post? I'm not sure why you're being so hostile. I just wanted to. voice my opinion and see if any body else felt the same.
Did I ever once say that I didn't know why a mainline didn't have the same detail as a proto? No I didn't. I'm saying if you looked at a $100 Walthers, and a $100 athearn or Atlas, the latter would have better detail. No need to get upset. Thrn I said I liked their drives and wish I could stick a genesis shell on them? I really think you need to slow down and read a post better before you get upset.
Bayfield Transfer Railway Ringo58 DAVID FORTNEY Again, KNOW WHAT YOU ARE BUYING, IS IT DCC,DC, OR DCC READY. IS IT DETAILED THOUGH FOR YOU? If you do your homework before buying you will never be disappointed. Dave I believe you misread the original post. I know what I bought. all I'm saying is the detail is not up to par with other manufacturer. I know what I bought was DCC ready and I did my homework. so you're ******** that a $100 locomotive has less detail than a $200 locomotive?
so you're ******** that a $100 locomotive has less detail than a $200 locomotive?
I read it more as he was saying the detail of a $100 locomotive didn't compare to the detail of another manufacturer's $100 locomotive.