OK Forum friends. I am in need of assistance again.
The shop crew of the Forest Railway is stumped. Five of the six freight road units are down. One of the units reminds the crew of a fake dinosaur in a cartoon. Another rattles worse than glass when a real train goes by. The rest are contributing to unneeded noise pollution.
The units are all BB drives. However other units of the same type are just fine. Three of the units need engines cleaned. One has a 140 series coupler not staying solid.
Any ideas would make the shop crew very happy.
I think I need a better description of each problem.
So five units failed nearly at the same time?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I agree with Kevin, most of us on this forum are not likely to know anything about a fake dinosaur in a cartoon, so a more focused description of the units and their particular ailments would help us suggest potential cures. What are they? Were they purchased at the same time? Remember the P2K cracked gears? How is the 140 series coupler mounted on the locomotive--with a clip or screws? By all being BB drives, one would guess they are Athearns? Help us help you.
The units are what I term Tythearns (Tyco shell/Athearn GP35 drive with a modified frame). The shells are a friction fit to the frame.
The engine cleaning is the commentators need cleaning (brushes are sparking). The drives run but they are whining like crazy (hence the fake dinosaur roar). The coupler, like all the others, is body mounted. There is a snow plow behind it which doesn't seem to be impeding it at all. I hope that clarifies the issues.
I also have found that two other GP9 BB units have failed. I power up the track and they go nowhere. I cleaned the wheels, checked the wiring and everything. They worked as recently as a month ago when I finished the second of the units. Any ideas on that would be welcomed as well.
Graphite, LaBelle and GooGone are going to be your friends.
For the coupler, check that the spring is still in place. If not, replace it. Then use graphite powder (a little bit on the end of a very small brush works well) to lube up all the moving parts.
I would clean the motors and gear assemblies, all the way from the commutators to the wheels. I did a quick forum search for a good step-by-step breakdown; here's a recent one that might help (credit to Dstarr).
Phil
The GP9s that do nothing sounds electrical.
Athearn relies on a couple of sketchy electrical contact points.
One is underneath the motor where a clip contacts the frame. Touch a jumper from the fram to the motor case while on powered track. If it moves, this is your culprit.
Replacing the motor mounts and cleaning the area usually fixes this problem. I also use Lubriplate DS-ES electrical grease beneath the motor when I reassemble Athearn locomotives. DO NOT us DS-ES anywhere else.
The metal bar between the trucks and the motor top is also questionable. I do away with this and run a couple of secure wires instead.
pt714 For the coupler, check that the spring is still in place. If not, replace it. Phil
For the coupler, check that the spring is still in place. If not, replace it.
I should have clarified a little better. That's not the part of the coupler in question. The whole coupler moves more than the rest.
I recently repowered several of my old Blue Box locos using Mabuchi FK-280SA-14200 dual shaft motors. I used 1/8" OD styrene tubing with the ID carefully reamed out to 2 mm to adapt the original Athearn flywheels to the 2 mm Mabuchi motor shafts. The motors were shimmed to the correct height using sheet styrene and hot glued in place. Very easy remotor project. All of these converted locos now run smoothly and QUIETLY around my layout with smoother starts and low speed operation under 5 scale miles per hour. Best of all, these motors are available on E-Bay for under $2.50 each (plus shipping).
Hornblower
I went to try to check the 9s with the wire trick. In the process, I discovered a much bigger problem. They both seem to have a short circuit somewhere in the mix. They tripped an overload in my power pack. Back to the drawing board. That's the confusing part. The only thing that is non-standard about the engines is the fuel tank was made bigger to match the prototype. I used JB Weld which doesn't conduct electricity.
About the GP-9s, have you had the trucks off both of them at the same time lately?
If they both resulted in having have two front trucks on one and two rear trucks on the other, that would make both of them have short circuits.
SeeYou190 About the GP-9s, have you had the trucks off both of them at the same time lately? If they both resulting in having have two front trucks on one and two rear trucks on the other, that would make both of them have short circuits. -Kevin
If they both resulting in having have two front trucks on one and two rear trucks on the other, that would make both of them have short circuits.
I doubled checked the hoseeker site for assembly instructions and that's exactly what I did. As i have to go to work, I left myself a note so that I remember what the problem is when I get another chance to fix it.
pt714 I would clean the motors and gear assemblies, all the way from the commutators to the wheels. I did a quick forum search for a good step-by-step breakdown; here's a recent one that might help (credit to Dstarr). Phil
The only moly grease I found was a can. Would you recommend using my fingers to grease the gears or a pipe cleaner?
FRRYKidThe only moly grease I found was a can. Would you recommend using my fingers to grease the gears or a pipe cleaner?
What I use is one of those mini grease guns that uses equally 'mini' cartridges with name-brand automotive or bicycle greased in them. I put in a good Teflon-bearing green grease (or something researched to be plastic-compatible for 'those' situations) and use a thin dispensing nozzle instead of a lock fitting on the hose; you could easily use a needle for really small requirements, or pump (or pack) a shot of grease into a syringe with needle and use that.
Once grease is on your hands it will start to be everywhere, starting with the places you most want it NOT to be, and it may take forever to get the last of it off without using skin-unfriendly technology. Better to do it all with the absolute minimum of wipe-off or outside 'contamination' with stray product...
P.S. you don't need "EP" formulation for most of not all these gears and bearings... model railroad pressures are slight and gear crowning issues minimal at most.
Where the trucks attach to the frame is another part of electrical path on BB drives. Both surfaces need to be clean and free of any oil or grease.
Mike.
My You Tube
Applying grease to gears is pretty simple. If you get a little in there somewhere, over the next few revolutions of the gear set the teeth will take it everywhere else. Don't overthink this.
The grease I use comes in a squeeze tube that works just fine.
When I assemble an Athearn Blue Box diesel locomotive truck I put a dab of grease on one of the idler gears as I go. Then before I install the worm gear I push the locomotive back and forth on my work surface, and all is greased that easy.
It does not take much grease.
mbinsewiWhere the trucks attach to the frame is another part of electrical path on BB drives. Both surfaces need to be clean and free of any oil or grease.
+1
Sounds as if some disposable gloves or a toothpick might be a good idea with the grease.
Gloves, definitely. Toothpick, why not, although a swab might be better if you take care not to string any cotton in there by mistake.
Remember as he said to run the unpowered truck around to spread the grease liberally and make sure enough is distributed. Unlike with oil, I think you want a fair amount on there. Then run in under power for a while to make sure everything is properly aligned as well as lubricated.
And don't make the mistake of thinking when it has been done with quality products you can ignore further maintenance for a long while. Set up a PM schedule, and inspect not only the gears but things like commutator, brushes and wheel treads on a regular and diligent basis.
I don;t mess with grease or oil meant for other things, I use the Labelle products made for model trains. They have a light oil for motor bearings, a heavier gear oil you can use on the gears, or a grease. The light and heavy oils come with needle point applicators, the grease comes ina tube you cna squeeze small amounts out of. You don't have to schmutz up all the gears, a little bit on the worm will distribute across all the rest.
High pitched whining is either the commutator needing cleaning, or the motor bearings being dry.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Moly and graphite are conductive.
Moly grease is dirty to work with. I have not used it for MR purposes. It has some interesting properties, but not really relevant to our hobby.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
FRRYKidSounds as if some disposable gloves or a toothpick might be a good idea with the grease.
I think a toothpick would make a fine applicator if you decide that works for you.
rrinker I use the Labelle products made for model trains. <SNIP> the grease comes in a tube you can squeeze small amounts out of.
Yes, Labelle is the brand grease I use also.
Great stuff.
rrinkerYou don't have to schmutz up all the gears, a little bit on the worm will distribute across all the rest.
Exactly, you just need a little somewhere in the gear train, and operation will spread it around for you.
I don't use an applicator, just a small amount from the tube is fine.
BigDaddyMoly and graphite are conductive.
That never occured to me. I think "moly" is short for molybdenum, which is a metal, so it makes sense it would be conductive.
SeeYou190I think "moly" is short for molybdenum, which is a metal, so it makes sense it would be conductive.
I seem to have most of the problems solved. Due to the nature of the 20s I think two of need to see the machine shop to rework the rear parts of the frames a little. However I've come up with two new ones.
1) The engine that was growing like the dinosaur now seems to be surging at points in the cycle. (The power increases and decreases and I'm not moving the power one iota.) I am using a high-quality pack with a well built wired throttle.
2) On one of the other engines, the brushes were sparking even after I cleaned the commutator. I thought replacing the brushes might help. (I picked up a few sets with springs for just such a need.) I changed them out, reassembled everything but now the engine is nothing but a paperweight.
Any ideas on those would be welcomed.
On locomotive #2, am I understanding you replaced both brushes on the motor, and now the motor will not run at all?
That assessment is correct. The only other idea I have is to replace the motor with a spare unit that I have. (As I have so many BB units, spare parts seemed a good idea.)
Do you have a way to apply voltage to the locomotive through probes? If so, isolate the motor from the chassis bu disconnecting the upper steel strip and put voltage directly to the motor brish connections.
Sorry I cannot take new pictures. These show me working on a brass locomotive, but they are the best example pictures I have.
Before I lube the gears in the trucks, I disassemble them completely, inspect each gear; sand every tooth and the sides of the gear with 1000 grit sandpaper. When the truck is re-assembled, it rolls like a Hot Wheels car. A tiny amount of Labell grease, and you are good to go.
I also hardwire the electrical connection between the trucks and the top clip of the motor.
I finally had the opportunity to check the paperweight engine this evening. Checked continuity with the electrical tester and reassembled everything. Of course, now the engine runs. The frame work on the other engines still awaits.
Edit: Now the pulsing engine has quit pulsing as well. I've also discovered that a few more of my engines need help, including a pair that I figure are older than I am.
It sounds like things are going in the right direction.
Came up wth yet another confusing one: I power an engine up with its shell on and I get a short. I take the shell off and it works just fine. The only area that I can come up with it that the front coupler is touching the plow and doing something but it doesn't touch anywhere else.
FRRYKid Came up wth yet another confusing one: I power an engine up with its shell on and I get a short. I take the shell off and it works just fine. The only area that I can come up with it that the front coupler is touching the plow and doing something but it doesn't touch anywhere else.
Finally got that one figured out too: A minor defect in the frame. The piece of metal that was laid down to feed power on Athearn BB frames was a bit long and seemed to be shorting the engine out. Removed it and the engine works just fine.