The hobby is cheap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I bought MTH hoppers, very good detail, for $15 out the door, brand new. I got my DCC system and an advanced MTH engine for $200. Most of my Shinohara turnouts were less than $10 and flex track just ove $4. These were recent purchaces and some from retail suppliers.
Rolling stock, track and such have gotten expensive for three reasons: inflation; product improvements; and an expectation on the part of the manufacturers that they must make MONEY producing their products.
In the middlin' past, most hobby manufacturers were in it because of their passion for the hobby. Some became the "Big" manufacturers, like Varney, Atlas and Athearn, and they made decent money with reasonable costing products. Walthers, primarily a distributor in the past, also did well. And there were others.
Then there were companies like Grandt Line, Northwest Short Line, and a ton of others, who made enough money to keep the doors open, but in general did not take tons of money out of the company.
Things have changed. Yeah, a lot of the manufacturers still have a passion for trains, but companies like Bachmann, Horizon Hobbies, Atlas are all now a (small) part of "Corporate Earth," with VP's of this, VP's of that, and relatively large corporate bureaucracies, all of which must be supported by the "contributing" parts of their companies, which means the products have to cost more to support the corporate bloat. These VP's don't work for pennies, you know.
At least that's my perspective. Please feel free to show me I'm wrong.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Horse 1 by Bear, on Flickr
That's what you get for inventing CPR.
Well guys thanks for responding to my OP. Always nice to get varrying opinions on any subject. I agree that relatively speaking prices are not all that different after accounting for inflation. Still, like anything that you have been away from for a few decades, you are always going to get sticker shock. I'm looking forward to getting my layout going. I have the benchwork done and plywood added with a 2.5 inch foam top over the plywood. Am ready to start putting down roadbed and track.
Well, no major harm if this has been covered before. But it is important to use a clear title (as here) so people can bypass the thread if not interested.
My comparison goes to the BB basic car kits that was, IIRC, $1.49 in 1964. That is (per the following calculator) $12.39 in 2020. A reasonably comparable Accurail box car January 2020 MSRP is $18.98. So that is a 53% "real" (reduced purchasing power) increase (in 36 years) beyond inflation, to the OP's point. One comparison that is close as I can make.
https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1964?amount=1
As noted above, other aspects of upgraded technology (DCC) or quality (loco performance & details, nicer other rolling stock) add nice features at an incremental cost. I love my Tortoise switch machines.
A big part of the hobby for me is the projects side. Most of my freight cars are kits, ditto structures. Many of them give lots of hours of entertainment per dollar. An example is the Tichy flat car (I have built two, but still procrastinating on the 120T crane).
So, consider your budget and consider all the options. I recommend kit freight cars, unused (new in box) LifeLike Proto diesels, and if DCC highly desired, the starter systems are good and reasonably priced.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Looking into my crystal ball...
I am seeing this thread merged with the "Too Expensive" thread very soon.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
cedarwoodronone of the Zitnick brothers has a very nice store over in St. Petersburg (FL) and he gets a ton of BB kits in regularly from local modelers.
I am so relieved that Zitnik's has reopened and seem to be back to pretty much their old selves.
I have not been there since the last parking lot swap meet. They do have a fun store.
As these threads are not terribly productive, I didn't read every single post. but - that same DIY mentality of years ago is still there. Many of my locos were all puchased from second sources liek train shows and eBay - yes, I did get a few brand new ones that came with sound and DCC, but a large part of my fleet were those same highly detailed Proto models from earlier releases - at $40 or lower. Add $100 for DCC and sound, and now I have the equivalent of those $250+ models, for $140 and some time.
Comparing paying $5 for a BB kit 40 years ago is pointless, that same $5 itself would be significantly more today. more than 3x, actually. So Accurail's kit prices are actually CHEAPER - most any Accurail kit is a nicer model than the old BB kits, and sell for less than $15.
Also some manufacturers today have taken to listing a ridiculously high MSRP on a product, but if you look at any competent reseller, sell for MUCH less, in line for what other brands sell for. Why they do this, I don't know, other than to attempt to appeal to the 'discount' mentality - you know, the people who will pick the $15 item at 50% off over the same item at $6 with no discount. Math is hard, you know.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Guys As food for thought. I have two brass Santa Fe steam engines that costs me less the a Bachmann DCC/Sound equipt Berk at street..
Sure they don't have DCC or sound but, does one really need DCC/Sound?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BigDaddy We had a thread awhile ago by someone who regreted getting in the hobby because the money he spent, but he felt he was also trapped in the hobby, because of the money he spent.
We had a thread awhile ago by someone who regreted getting in the hobby because the money he spent, but he felt he was also trapped in the hobby, because of the money he spent.
Sunk Cost Fallacy...when you commit to something (even if you dont want to) because you've already spent so much into it already. A classic error in human thinking.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
As models become more and more not just road specific but also unit specific, I can understand the increase in cost as well as all the "good stuff" on the inside with DCC and sound. ScaleTrains is a good example of a company offering options to the customer with their Operator and Rivet Counter lines making the hobby more affordable for everyone. My concern most is about quality of parts and assembly. I have had some locomotives look real good on the side that faces the outside of the box but not so much on the back side. It's just happens from time to time and most if not all companies will take care of the issues.
But it's not just model trains that have increasing cost, my new Corolla needed a headlight bulb replaced and while it was covered under warrenty, the dealer's service department told me it would have cost about $1100.00 otherwise! We are talking for just the bulb! Because it is a new special type of bulb that combines both dim and brights. Just think of what the other electronics will cost to replace?
I would love to live like the Jetsons, but my budget would only provide for the Flintstones.
Ralph
As Cedarwoodron pointed out, it is possible to find low cost models. There is a TON of older models on the secondary market. The great thing about the hobby is there is a lot of choice - if the current production models are too expensive, hunt down bargains or older production models.
Don't forget the email list HOSwap, which may be more useful during the pandemic if you don't have shops or shows that you can go to. There are usually a couple of batches of listing that are sent out to members every day.
https://groups.io/g/HOswap
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
It's been quite a long time since I posted- some health issues commenced just as I retired but now past that, I'm able to give more attention to this forum.
I am a frugal modeler- not scratchbuilding but always conscious of a bargain. I prefer Athearn BB kits because they can easily be modified or rebadged and the cost of good couplers and IM metal wheels is not so prohibitive. I used to go to the periodic swap meets but with the current state of things, I feel safer avoiding them. I'm fortunate that one of the Zitnick brothers has a very nice store over in St. Petersburg (FL) and he gets a ton of BB kits in regularly from local modelers. I keep my costs down and research innovative inexpensive solutions where possible- an example being buying hookup wire on Ebay with free shipping, learning how to service old BB diesels myself, etc. Its what you do with what you can get that gives me additional modeling satisfaction. Although I'm primarily an HO model railroad, being retired has allowed me to dabble with plastic model kits- planes, spacecraft, cars. If you remember $5.98 for a car model, how about $39.98 these days? Sticker shock is universal it seems but careful shopping and putting a little effort into modeling methodologies can be rewarding. Always keep a weather eye open for bargain railroad stuff and there you can find hobby satisfaction.
Cedarwoodron
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
When I switched from N scale to HO scale it was because of the "expensive" locmotives and freight cars that were coming out.
Red Caboose, Proto-2000, Intermountain, and Kadee all began making freight cars that looked like what I thought a model should look like.
If $5.00 Athearn Blue Box cars were the only choice, I would still be in N scale running Micro-Trains freight cars.
Paul3add up the number of parts in an Athearn BB 40' boxcar kit: https://www.hoseeker.net/athearninstructionscars1970/40woodsteelboxcar1973.jpg Roofwalk Body Brake wheel Floor Steel Weight Underframe 2 x X2F Coupler 2 x Coupler Plate 2 x Door 2 x Door Guide 2 x Screw 2 x Truck 4 x Axle 8 x Wheel ----------- 30 parts Compare that to the Intermountain 40' boxcar that came out 20 years ago: https://www.hoseeker.net/intermountain/intermountain1937aar40boxcarpg5.jpg https://www.hoseeker.net/intermountain/intermountain1937aar40boxcarpg1.jpg See link for parts list. ----------- 72 parts Now here's a $50 meat reefer from Rapido that's only a couple years old: https://rapidotrains.com/content/manuals/Rapdio_RTR121.pdf See link for parts list. ----------- 105 parts As you can see, the number of parts for freight cars has doubled and then tripled since the Irv Athearn BB days. And since today's models are mostly RTR, someone has to be paid to put all those parts on the model vs. the old Athearn BB kit days when all they did was box the parts.
And don't forget the new Arrowhead Greenville Railgon gondola with 199 parts for $55. Gorgeous and exquisite. I've pre-ordered a couple of the as-delivered version due in August.
Back to the original poster. We've heard the train hobby is outrageously expensive. Welcome to 2020. But what you can get is amazing. No more generic boxcars that don't match anything real. Companies like Moloco and Tangnet offer stunning replicas of real boxcars and show you photo's of the real things to prove how well they match!
If you are shocked and unhappy with what is available today, you can go to train shows (when the pandemic settles down) or hunt on Ebay and find more old Athearn, Model Die Casting etc. that you can imagine and yes, for a small fraction of what the newer detailed models sell for. You choose.
i have a 1956 American Flyer catalog.A GP7 cost $25 in 1956.In 2020 dollars, that would be $236.95I'd rather spend an extra $13.05 and get Proto 2000 GP7 with sound and DCC, and such good detail that you can't tell a photo from a photo of the real thing.Also, in 1956 the median home price was $18,332.24
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
hon30critter BRAKIE One doesn't need a basement filling layout in order to enjoy the hobby. Dave
BRAKIE One doesn't need a basement filling layout in order to enjoy the hobby.
Dave
I agree also. Most of my layouts have been under 100 sq ft. Even a 4x8 or shelf layout can be fun.
As for cost. There has been a rise of highly detailed and accurate models over the last 20-30 years. But there are still many less expensive models from companies like Accurail. These make up into very nice models albeit with more cast on details and less detail. They just don't get the coverage in the press that the highly detailed (and more expensive) models get.
And when the train shows start up again, you can still find Athearn bluebox and MDC kits NIB, frequently in the $5-$10 price range.
BRAKIEOne doesn't need a basement filling layout in order to enjoy the hobby.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
After reading MR for well over 60 years, I think the magazine has done some mission creep. Used to be the brass imports like the Pacific Fast Mail always on the back cover (loved those) was the top end, things to only wish for. Now the magazine is full of all kinds of top end products. They are not only on the back cover. What I don't see is much coverage of inexpensive entry level BB equivalents. The kind of thing your allowance bought.
Used to be lichens and sawdust both dyed green and spread on your layout for vegetation. Well that has come a long long way, and frankly not really any more expensive. Great. And I do love the how to build a shed, or how to lay track articles. But electronics, oh my. Gone are the build your own throttle with momentum projects. Everything is now multifeature computerized control. Power pack and wires is history. Now we use an involved controller with separate power box, and other accessory circuits. That Proto Throttle is like something that would have been on the back cover - something to drool over. But geez, what are they, $500? And that on top of the rest of your DCC system. I know you can still buy DC locomotives and I am sure DC power packs, but I sure don't see much about them.
SO it appears MR has moved up to a more advanced level. And that's OK, though not as beginner friendly as it one was. The hobby in general seems to have drifted the same way.
Just my opinion.
One doesn't need to spend a fortune on the hobby. Bachmann DCC locomotives can be had around $65-85.00. You could buy the older P2K, Atlas/Kato or BB locomotives for a reasonable price. Accurail and older Atlas cars can be had for reasonable prices. There is still tons of BB kits available.
One doesn't need a basement filling layout in order to enjoy the hobby.
bgibbs100,One problem is that you're comparing the mid-level quality of Athearn BB to the best available quality of today. A fair comparison would be to either compare the prices of 1980's brass to today's high end models, or to compare today's mid-level models with old Athearn BB kits. The fidelity and detail of today's models is way beyond what it was in the 1980's. And remember how great it was when Atlas came out with the Kato drive? Now everything is like that. No more growlers, no more sparking wheels, no more "cookout in the cab" headlights, and no rust on electrical contacts. I remember buying books about tuning up your Athearn locos to make them run better, and today, no one has to do that.Secondly, quality isn't usually defined by sliding boxcar doors, but if you really want them, be advised that Kadee, Intermountain, and Atlas Yardmaster (plus I'm sure a few others) still offer such things. Heck, Kadee covered hoppers have opening roof hatches and their Hydrocushion boxcar frames actually work. Still, the prototype fidelity (the usual idea of quality) was severely lacking with Athearn BB's. For example, all their underframes were backwards because Athearn didn't realize that the prototype plans they were following were viewed from the top down not the bottom up. The "door claws" on the bottom of the 40' boxcar doors were grossly oversized and unrealistic, the stirrup steps were all fat, the ice bunker reefer roof doors had giant hinges, etc.Third, add up the number of parts in an Athearn BB 40' boxcar kit:https://www.hoseeker.net/athearninstructionscars1970/40woodsteelboxcar1973.jpgRoofwalkBodyBrake wheelFloorSteel WeightUnderframe2 x X2F Coupler2 x Coupler Plate2 x Door2 x Door Guide2 x Screw2 x Truck4 x Axle8 x Wheel-----------30 partsCompare that to the Intermountain 40' boxcar that came out 20 years ago:https://www.hoseeker.net/intermountain/intermountain1937aar40boxcarpg5.jpghttps://www.hoseeker.net/intermountain/intermountain1937aar40boxcarpg1.jpgSee link for parts list.-----------72 partsNow here's a $50 meat reefer from Rapido that's only a couple years old:https://rapidotrains.com/content/manuals/Rapdio_RTR121.pdfSee link for parts list.-----------105 partsAs you can see, the number of parts for freight cars has doubled and then tripled since the Irv Athearn BB days. And since today's models are mostly RTR, someone has to be paid to put all those parts on the model vs. the old Athearn BB kit days when all they did was box the parts.And yes, Chinese labor is cheap, but it's not free. $3 per hour in China is about $15 per hour here, but then it's much cheaper to live in China than in North America. Labor is the #1 cost in the hobby business today, and with the increasing number of parts, you can see why.Lastly, Rapido is doing what you're asking for with their brand new PRR wagontop boxcars:https://rapidotrains.com/products/ho-scale/freight-cars/ho-scale-prr-x31a-boxcar If you order SKU 123001A, you'll get either boxcar number 67408, 67925, 68804, 70311, 77657, or 77634, selected at random by Rapido. If you order two SKU 123001A's, you'll get two random numbers from that group of six. And Rapido is doing this with 9 different PRR wagontop boxcar SKU's.So yes, prices have increased several times in the past 30 years, but what you get for that money is well within reason. 30 years ago, if you wanted locos with different road numbers and superdetailed, you'd either have to do it yourself or pay a custom painter some money to do that. I know because I paid a custom painter $100 for an Atlas RS-11 in 1990. It was my first Atlas so I remember it well (and I still have it today). You could get Atlas RS-11's for about $40 back then from a mail order place, and then I paid $60 for the paint job and detailing. Today, that $100 is worth $202 just by inflation alone. The last run, two years ago, of the same Atlas RS-11 is $160, and it has wire grabs, MU hoses and cut levers, interior painted crew, improved electronics, etc.
Who cares? I mean, really, who cares? No hobby is cheap, unless you like to walk around the park, because that's pretty inexpensive.
Hello All,
Hey guys...
My comments are intended to move this conversation from "Oh, it's so expensive!" to "How to get into this on the cheap." Cheap being a relative term.
I too have financial and spatial constraints set by- -"She who must be obeyed".
As other posts have discussed- -in this buying/selling climate "bargains" might not be what they seem, if your goal is to get up and running as quickly as possible.
To the OP...
Ask questions, do some research, and purchase wisely- -your decisions will reward you well into your modeling future.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
BigDaddy richhotrain Such a topic nearly violates the Forum Rules. Huh? It is on topic. AFAIK no one except the manufactures, thinks our trains should cost more, so it's not divisive No controversy over race religion or politics in the post He was clean and civil He's not advertising anything. However these threads do tend to get locked or appended to the "This Hobby is too Expensive" thread because there is not a darn thing any of us can do about it. Our demographic is mostly grumpy old men, we have plenty of complaints as it is.
richhotrain Such a topic nearly violates the Forum Rules.
Huh?
However these threads do tend to get locked or appended to the "This Hobby is too Expensive" thread because there is not a darn thing any of us can do about it. Our demographic is mostly grumpy old men, we have plenty of complaints as it is.
Alton Junction
richhotrainSuch a topic nearly violates the Forum Rules.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Not what I would expect from a first post to the Forum. I noticed you didn’t get a single Welcome, that’s a hint.Anyone away from anything for 30 years is going to experience Sticker Shock.
Welcome to the 2020s Model Forum. I’m pretty sure none of the members are happy with the cost of the hobby but few say anything about it, most of us are happy model railroading.I’m retired with a fixed income and do the best I can and still have the time of my life with my hobby.
Stick around after your rant and join in with pictures and info about your layout.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
I too have noticed the sharp rise in the prices of all things model railroad-related in the past few months.
Seeing the financial "writing on the wall" months ago, I stocked up on things like decoders along with other modeling supplies including trucks, wheels, and couplers.
The only items I am now purchasing are tools- -taking advantage of sales and discounted shipping costs, despite the delays in shipping times.
Recently I "unearthed" a box of DC locomotives. After some triage; out of 8 in the box, 4 became conversion projects to DCC.
I now have a DCC consist of 4 silver and red Santa Fe EMD F units- -A-B-B-A, added to my roster.
With wooden stir sticks, "popsicle" sticks and tongue depressors I scratch build rolling stock from flatbeds to boxcars and specialty cars.
Yes, I too am amazed (more like dismayed) at the sharp rise in prices.
Even in these challenging times, bargains can be found. These might not be the Ready-To-Run beauties that were cheaply available in the recent past but they are out there to be "unearthed".
In this day and age, many people returning to this hobby are shocked to discover that what they presumed to be "toys" have actually evolved into complex computer-driven, replicas. (With respect to my brethren that embrace DC.)
I grew up 2-blocks away from a Dodge dealership in the 1960s & 70s. At that time you could drive a Super Bee off the lot for less than $3,000.00- -fully loaded. Now consider the price of that same car now.
Many of the great folks on these forums don't have a layout. This does not dampen their passion for this hobby.
Yes, in the past few months there has occurred a "sticker shock" of sorts for our hobby.
This hobby has "survived" wars, financial catastrophes, and technical divisions, yet despite all the naysayers it continues to flourish.
In 1976 at age 19 I went to work for the Federal Government making whopping $5.91 an hour. I am retired now, however my position (last time I checked) pays about $37.00 an hour.
So your point is ????
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."