Manufacturer Model Duplication Timing

[Paul3]

Overmod,
Manufacturers are always looking for new product to make that will be profitble.  They all conduct research and get requests from modelers.  When there is a pent up demand for a model, that demand tends to be discovered by multiple manufacturers at roughly the same time.  That's how multiple copies of the same prototype can be released.

John-NYBW,
Delivery dates are not iron clad because it's impossible to predict the future.  Delays are caused by tooling & paint errors that must be fixed, factories shutting down unexpectedly, worldwide pandemics, and other unforseen situations.

Secondly, the length of time it takes just to get a model from China to your hands is longer than 5 weeks.  It takes 4 weeks just to cross the Pacific.  It takes another week to cross North America by train for companies like Rapido, Atlas, BLI, etc.  Once it arrives it as to be warehoused and sorted, which can take another week (depending on the number of units and SKU's made).  Then it has to be shipped to wholesalers, dealers, and direct buyers, which can take, yes, another week.  So just from the time the models leave the Chinese factory, it can be 6 to 7 weeks to make it into the consumer's hands.

As for the length of time it takes from the first advertised delivery date to the actual delivery date, sometimes Stuff Happens.  Manufacturing problems crop up and need to be addressed.  No manufacturer wants to miss a deadline; they only do it because they have to.

Manufacturers choose to make a model months before the announcement.  They do prototype research, decide what versions to make, and sketch it up in 3D CAD.  Then it's announced with a deadline and they start taking orders.  If the orders are slow, they'll push the deadline back because they aren't going to make a model that's going to lose money.  Meanwhile, they start refining the CAD file, fixing the problems that crop up while also making sure it can be shot in plastic.  Then they come up with the paint jobs and colors.  All in all, it takes around a year between the announcement and the delivery of the model...and that's on a good day.

Sheldon,
Back then, Athearn engines cost $20 and they only made ~5 new locos per decade.  Today, engines cost north of $200 without sound and manufacturers are bringing out multiple new engines every year.  It's not the same marketplace you had back then.

And it's great that you're building a working roster of locos, but manufacturers are trying to pay off business loans, house payments, and put food on their table.  As you said, they will make what sells, and if they can make more money selling yet another Big Boy vs. a Pacific, then that's what they're gonna do.  The market determines what is made, not the manufacturers.

As for high end BLI vs. Bachmann...  BLI at its best is better than Bachmann at its best.  And yes, that includes BLI's brass and Hybrid lines.  Bachmann can make some really good stuff, don't get me wrong (the EM-1 is very nice), but BLI can make it better.  They don't always do it (as your own experiences show), but they can (and do).

Just my opinion. Someone who is building a roster of New Haven engines for an operating layout, not collecting generic models of locomotives. 

I've had plenty of positive experiences pre-ordering models and I am hardly alone in this.

riogrande5761,
We almost had a high end G-85 model, but Walthers announced their model and that was that.

[BEAUSABRE]

From July 1950 MR. I first saw it in the late Sixties

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/cartoon-truth-do-some-things-ever-really-change-in-the-world-of-toy-trains

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

 

 

[John-NYBW]

Paul3

John-NYBW,
Delivery dates are not iron clad because it's impossible to predict the future.  Delays are caused by tooling & paint errors that must be fixed, factories shutting down unexpectedly, worldwide pandemics, and other unforseen situations.

 

That's just the point. Why predict them? Don't announce a product until you are ready to deliver. It is so aggravating for a company to promise a product and then not deliver until years after it was announced. 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Paul3

Sheldon,
Back then, Athearn engines cost $20 and they only made ~5 new locos per decade.  Today, engines cost north of $200 without sound and manufacturers are bringing out multiple new engines every year.  It's not the same marketplace you had back then.

And it's great that you're building a working roster of locos, but manufacturers are trying to pay off business loans, house payments, and put food on their table.  As you said, they will make what sells, and if they can make more money selling yet another Big Boy vs. a Pacific, then that's what they're gonna do.  The market determines what is made, not the manufacturers.

As for high end BLI vs. Bachmann...  BLI at its best is better than Bachmann at its best.  And yes, that includes BLI's brass and Hybrid lines.  Bachmann can make some really good stuff, don't get me wrong (the EM-1 is very nice), but BLI can make it better.  They don't always do it (as your own experiences show), but they can (and do).

Just my opinion. Someone who is building a roster of New Haven engines for an operating layout, not collecting generic models of locomotives. 

I've had plenty of positive experiences pre-ordering models and I am hardly alone in this.

Paul,

Some BLI product is very nice, and I am happy with the seven pieces I have.

That said, there is little to nothing in their current catalog that I want or need. 

But more importantly, for the price, I am unimpressed with the detail on a lot of their models. Their diesels in particular leave me cold compared to Genesis, Intermountain or Proto.

They still give me the impression it is all about the sound.........

And joke all you want about my generic locos and the fact that I freelance, but I kit bash most all my locos to get a believable family look to my roster. Oh, I forgot, this has turned into a RTR hobby.......

But I also model three prototype roads and want correct locos as much as anyone for my C&O, B&O and WESTERN MARYLAND stuff.

And yes, I can build a correct B&O P7d myself..........

Thank goodness I have most of what I need and want when it comes to locos and rolling stock, from here on out loco purchases will be luck and luxury, not anything I need to make the layout feel right.

My points again are simple, they don't know what the market is, or if they can make money on other items because they won't try. And they announce stuff too soon to "feel" out the demand. It's a game, just like the poor pricing policies at BLI years ago.

Sheldon

 

[elauterbach]

The big missing piece here is that the Bachmann and BLI versions represent different streamlining done by the Pennsy. Also, the Bachmann version is  not as detailed as BLI version. BLI works directly with the Pennsylvania Railroad historical group and has for a number of projects. This explains why their Pennsy engines are so accurate.

Eric

[Paul3]

John-NYBW,
I see.  You think that manufacturers should just make stuff without getting any pre-orders at all.

You know that these models are huge investments, right?  It can cost $80,000 to make the tooling for a high end passenger car these days, with part counts in the hundreds.  Diesel loco models cost even more, and steam costs even more than that.  It's darn expensive to make a model train these days.

Who, in their right mind, would invest that kind of money into a product without some kind of assurance that it'll sell?  They have to make money or they go out of business.  And there have been several products that have been canceled due to lack of pre-orders.  Should they have made them anyway and lost money?

I have a simple solution to prevent personal aggravation over missed shipping deadlines: don't look (or listen) to new product announcements.  Just walk into your local hobby shop and buy what they have on the shelf.  That way, you'll never be disappointed again...unless you find out that a model you really wanted is already sold out because you didn't pre-order it. 

The other solution is to go back to the 1980's mode of manufacturing.  Make only the most popular generic models and inaccurately paint them in just the most popular railroads for decades on end. 

I prefer a system where I can get accurate models for the railroad I model vs. generic models for a railroad that I don't.

Sheldon,
There's nothing from BLI I want right now, either.  I only have four of their locos and several of their express reefers.

I am also unimpressed with their diesels.  The coupler pockets on their Sharks are ridiculous, and their SD40 is an inaccurate model (to be kind).  I don't even think of them when I think of diesel models.

We know you don't like sound.  You've said it hundreds of times, man.  We get it.  And that's fine, but please recognize that others do like sound despite its limitations.

Its always been a RTR hobby.  What do you think Lionel (est. 1900) is? 

The manufacturers know the market a lot better than we do.  They, after all, know how much they sell.  If certain road names sell in better numbers than others, what do you think they're going to be make more of?

I think it's kinda funny that you're complaining that they won't try the market out, then complaining when they do try the market out.  Which is it?  Should they just make things regardless of risk?  It's real easy for us to say when it's not our money.

It's no game, it's as serious as an accountant.  Bills are coming due, loan payments need to be made, the kid wants to go to college, so let's bet the farm on making rare prototypes that aren't that popular?  Um, no.  Who would do that?

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

elauterbach

The big missing piece here is that the Bachmann and BLI versions represent different streamlining done by the Pennsy. Also, the Bachmann version is  not as detailed as BLI version. BLI works directly with the Pennsylvania Railroad historical group and has for a number of projects. This explains why their Pennsy engines are so accurate.

Eric

 

Well there you have it folks, they are not really the same two locos after all.

While I knew the PRR had different streamlining on those at different times (the B&O story is similar), not having actual interest in purchasing one, I had not looked closely at either model to notice who was offering which versions.

So, PRR fans, take your pick, the 1936 version of 3768, or the 1940/41 versions of 1120, 2665, and 3678.

As for detail, it's a streamlined steam locomotive, based on the photos, they both look pretty good compared to their prototypes.

I will reserve comment on detail until I can actually touch both models......

But I do have this question, does the Broadway model have removable side skirts so you can model it the way it looked by 1938?

Sheldon

[John-NYBW]

I don't care about their business problems. That's for them to figure out. I'm not going to be bothered with what's on their drawing board. If they have a PRODUCT to sell me, let me know and I might be interested. Otherwise I am going to tune them out and look at what their competitors have to offer. 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Paul,

I do get it. I have been self employed most of my life, I have worked in this hobby/train business, and I have manufactured and sold my own products.

And I agree, these products today are great.

But I missed that original RTR experiance, never had a LIONEL train.

Grew up on HO that my father had, in the early 60's when you had to build stuff. At age 12 I was building Silver Streak craftsman kits, at age 14 I was the "repair guy" at the hobby shop I worked in.

Personally I understand the long lead times even if I don't like it.

But, even with all this great product, there are still large gaps in railroad history that I suspect enough people would buy. 

So I don't understand 3 and 4 companies dividing up the "Big Boy" market.

Then we have the problem of "too much detail", "not enough detail", smoke or no smoke, etc.

I can see what Bachmann is doing. Rather than their old business model of making different levels of product for different levels of modeler, they are in the process of moving the whole line to the middle.

No more Spectrum, no more sub par "regular line", one line, good enough for many/most modelers, at prices most everyone will pay.

This is clear ever since the introducton of the regular line LIMA 2-8-4. It is in the regular line, but nearly as detailed as Spectrum was. Offered with sound, and with better proto correct details for each road name than the expensive MTH version.

The recent USRA Mike and Pacific, the revised GS4, the revised 2-8-0, the streamlined K4, and the reintroduction of the 4-6-0 reflect this trend as well.

Now here is my big gripe with Broadway - If I buy a brass hybrid, agreed it is top notch. And if I buy most of the "big and famous" locos in the Pargon line, they too are nice.

But the BLI USRA Pacific and Mikado can't even get a correct headlight or trailing truck change for each roadname? Or a few different tenders styles to match the prototypes? But Bachmann was able to manage that on their 2-8-2 and 4-6-2? For less money.......

And don't tell me that the BLI locos run better, my return/problem stats, and the threads on this forum don't support that.

I get it, people like sound. People like DCC. I rip all that stuff out, for a long complex series of reasons I made a choice 20 years ago not to change, and I am still happy with that choice.

I don't really expect companies to make DC locos just for me, although it is amazing how many still do.........and I suspect they don't do that without preorders or good intel that they will sell..........

Sheldon

 

[tstage]

John-NYBW

I don't care about their business problems. That's for them to figure out. I'm not going to be bothered with what's on their drawing board. If they have a PRODUCT to sell me, let me know and I might be interested. Otherwise I am going to tune them out and look at what their competitors have to offer.

That should work, John.  I actually enjoy knowing ahead of time what's on the manufacturer's "drawing board".  That gives me the opportunity to plan and save for any purchases that I might be interested in.  But...to each his own.

Tom

[FlyingScotaman]

BEAUSABRE

From July 1950 MR. I first saw it in the late Sixties

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/cartoon-truth-do-some-things-ever-really-change-in-the-world-of-toy-trains

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

 

 

 

That's very interesting. Well remembered!