BEAUSABRE From July 1950 MR. I first saw it in the late Sixties https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/cartoon-truth-do-some-things-ever-really-change-in-the-world-of-toy-trains plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
From July 1950 MR. I first saw it in the late Sixties
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/cartoon-truth-do-some-things-ever-really-change-in-the-world-of-toy-trains
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
John-NYBWI don't care about their business problems. That's for them to figure out. I'm not going to be bothered with what's on their drawing board. If they have a PRODUCT to sell me, let me know and I might be interested. Otherwise I am going to tune them out and look at what their competitors have to offer.
That should work, John. I actually enjoy knowing ahead of time what's on the manufacturer's "drawing board". That gives me the opportunity to plan and save for any purchases that I might be interested in. But...to each his own.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Paul,
I do get it. I have been self employed most of my life, I have worked in this hobby/train business, and I have manufactured and sold my own products.
And I agree, these products today are great.
But I missed that original RTR experiance, never had a LIONEL train.
Grew up on HO that my father had, in the early 60's when you had to build stuff. At age 12 I was building Silver Streak craftsman kits, at age 14 I was the "repair guy" at the hobby shop I worked in.
Personally I understand the long lead times even if I don't like it.
But, even with all this great product, there are still large gaps in railroad history that I suspect enough people would buy.
So I don't understand 3 and 4 companies dividing up the "Big Boy" market.
Then we have the problem of "too much detail", "not enough detail", smoke or no smoke, etc.
I can see what Bachmann is doing. Rather than their old business model of making different levels of product for different levels of modeler, they are in the process of moving the whole line to the middle.
No more Spectrum, no more sub par "regular line", one line, good enough for many/most modelers, at prices most everyone will pay.
This is clear ever since the introducton of the regular line LIMA 2-8-4. It is in the regular line, but nearly as detailed as Spectrum was. Offered with sound, and with better proto correct details for each road name than the expensive MTH version.
The recent USRA Mike and Pacific, the revised GS4, the revised 2-8-0, the streamlined K4, and the reintroduction of the 4-6-0 reflect this trend as well.
Now here is my big gripe with Broadway - If I buy a brass hybrid, agreed it is top notch. And if I buy most of the "big and famous" locos in the Pargon line, they too are nice.
But the BLI USRA Pacific and Mikado can't even get a correct headlight or trailing truck change for each roadname? Or a few different tenders styles to match the prototypes? But Bachmann was able to manage that on their 2-8-2 and 4-6-2? For less money.......
And don't tell me that the BLI locos run better, my return/problem stats, and the threads on this forum don't support that.
I get it, people like sound. People like DCC. I rip all that stuff out, for a long complex series of reasons I made a choice 20 years ago not to change, and I am still happy with that choice.
I don't really expect companies to make DC locos just for me, although it is amazing how many still do.........and I suspect they don't do that without preorders or good intel that they will sell..........
Sheldon
I don't care about their business problems. That's for them to figure out. I'm not going to be bothered with what's on their drawing board. If they have a PRODUCT to sell me, let me know and I might be interested. Otherwise I am going to tune them out and look at what their competitors have to offer.
elauterbach The big missing piece here is that the Bachmann and BLI versions represent different streamlining done by the Pennsy. Also, the Bachmann version is not as detailed as BLI version. BLI works directly with the Pennsylvania Railroad historical group and has for a number of projects. This explains why their Pennsy engines are so accurate. Eric
The big missing piece here is that the Bachmann and BLI versions represent different streamlining done by the Pennsy. Also, the Bachmann version is not as detailed as BLI version. BLI works directly with the Pennsylvania Railroad historical group and has for a number of projects. This explains why their Pennsy engines are so accurate.
Eric
Well there you have it folks, they are not really the same two locos after all.
While I knew the PRR had different streamlining on those at different times (the B&O story is similar), not having actual interest in purchasing one, I had not looked closely at either model to notice who was offering which versions.
So, PRR fans, take your pick, the 1936 version of 3768, or the 1940/41 versions of 1120, 2665, and 3678.
As for detail, it's a streamlined steam locomotive, based on the photos, they both look pretty good compared to their prototypes.
I will reserve comment on detail until I can actually touch both models......
But I do have this question, does the Broadway model have removable side skirts so you can model it the way it looked by 1938?
John-NYBW,I see. You think that manufacturers should just make stuff without getting any pre-orders at all.
You know that these models are huge investments, right? It can cost $80,000 to make the tooling for a high end passenger car these days, with part counts in the hundreds. Diesel loco models cost even more, and steam costs even more than that. It's darn expensive to make a model train these days.Who, in their right mind, would invest that kind of money into a product without some kind of assurance that it'll sell? They have to make money or they go out of business. And there have been several products that have been canceled due to lack of pre-orders. Should they have made them anyway and lost money?I have a simple solution to prevent personal aggravation over missed shipping deadlines: don't look (or listen) to new product announcements. Just walk into your local hobby shop and buy what they have on the shelf. That way, you'll never be disappointed again...unless you find out that a model you really wanted is already sold out because you didn't pre-order it. The other solution is to go back to the 1980's mode of manufacturing. Make only the most popular generic models and inaccurately paint them in just the most popular railroads for decades on end. I prefer a system where I can get accurate models for the railroad I model vs. generic models for a railroad that I don't.Sheldon,There's nothing from BLI I want right now, either. I only have four of their locos and several of their express reefers.I am also unimpressed with their diesels. The coupler pockets on their Sharks are ridiculous, and their SD40 is an inaccurate model (to be kind). I don't even think of them when I think of diesel models.We know you don't like sound. You've said it hundreds of times, man. We get it. And that's fine, but please recognize that others do like sound despite its limitations.Its always been a RTR hobby. What do you think Lionel (est. 1900) is? The manufacturers know the market a lot better than we do. They, after all, know how much they sell. If certain road names sell in better numbers than others, what do you think they're going to be make more of?I think it's kinda funny that you're complaining that they won't try the market out, then complaining when they do try the market out. Which is it? Should they just make things regardless of risk? It's real easy for us to say when it's not our money.It's no game, it's as serious as an accountant. Bills are coming due, loan payments need to be made, the kid wants to go to college, so let's bet the farm on making rare prototypes that aren't that popular? Um, no. Who would do that?
Paul3 Sheldon,Back then, Athearn engines cost $20 and they only made ~5 new locos per decade. Today, engines cost north of $200 without sound and manufacturers are bringing out multiple new engines every year. It's not the same marketplace you had back then.And it's great that you're building a working roster of locos, but manufacturers are trying to pay off business loans, house payments, and put food on their table. As you said, they will make what sells, and if they can make more money selling yet another Big Boy vs. a Pacific, then that's what they're gonna do. The market determines what is made, not the manufacturers.As for high end BLI vs. Bachmann... BLI at its best is better than Bachmann at its best. And yes, that includes BLI's brass and Hybrid lines. Bachmann can make some really good stuff, don't get me wrong (the EM-1 is very nice), but BLI can make it better. They don't always do it (as your own experiences show), but they can (and do).Just my opinion. Someone who is building a roster of New Haven engines for an operating layout, not collecting generic models of locomotives. I've had plenty of positive experiences pre-ordering models and I am hardly alone in this.
Sheldon,Back then, Athearn engines cost $20 and they only made ~5 new locos per decade. Today, engines cost north of $200 without sound and manufacturers are bringing out multiple new engines every year. It's not the same marketplace you had back then.And it's great that you're building a working roster of locos, but manufacturers are trying to pay off business loans, house payments, and put food on their table. As you said, they will make what sells, and if they can make more money selling yet another Big Boy vs. a Pacific, then that's what they're gonna do. The market determines what is made, not the manufacturers.As for high end BLI vs. Bachmann... BLI at its best is better than Bachmann at its best. And yes, that includes BLI's brass and Hybrid lines. Bachmann can make some really good stuff, don't get me wrong (the EM-1 is very nice), but BLI can make it better. They don't always do it (as your own experiences show), but they can (and do).Just my opinion. Someone who is building a roster of New Haven engines for an operating layout, not collecting generic models of locomotives. I've had plenty of positive experiences pre-ordering models and I am hardly alone in this.
Some BLI product is very nice, and I am happy with the seven pieces I have.
That said, there is little to nothing in their current catalog that I want or need.
But more importantly, for the price, I am unimpressed with the detail on a lot of their models. Their diesels in particular leave me cold compared to Genesis, Intermountain or Proto.
They still give me the impression it is all about the sound.........
And joke all you want about my generic locos and the fact that I freelance, but I kit bash most all my locos to get a believable family look to my roster. Oh, I forgot, this has turned into a RTR hobby.......
But I also model three prototype roads and want correct locos as much as anyone for my C&O, B&O and WESTERN MARYLAND stuff.
And yes, I can build a correct B&O P7d myself..........
Thank goodness I have most of what I need and want when it comes to locos and rolling stock, from here on out loco purchases will be luck and luxury, not anything I need to make the layout feel right.
My points again are simple, they don't know what the market is, or if they can make money on other items because they won't try. And they announce stuff too soon to "feel" out the demand. It's a game, just like the poor pricing policies at BLI years ago.
Paul3 John-NYBW,Delivery dates are not iron clad because it's impossible to predict the future. Delays are caused by tooling & paint errors that must be fixed, factories shutting down unexpectedly, worldwide pandemics, and other unforseen situations.
John-NYBW,Delivery dates are not iron clad because it's impossible to predict the future. Delays are caused by tooling & paint errors that must be fixed, factories shutting down unexpectedly, worldwide pandemics, and other unforseen situations.
That's just the point. Why predict them? Don't announce a product until you are ready to deliver. It is so aggravating for a company to promise a product and then not deliver until years after it was announced.
Overmod,Manufacturers are always looking for new product to make that will be profitble. They all conduct research and get requests from modelers. When there is a pent up demand for a model, that demand tends to be discovered by multiple manufacturers at roughly the same time. That's how multiple copies of the same prototype can be released.John-NYBW,Delivery dates are not iron clad because it's impossible to predict the future. Delays are caused by tooling & paint errors that must be fixed, factories shutting down unexpectedly, worldwide pandemics, and other unforseen situations.Secondly, the length of time it takes just to get a model from China to your hands is longer than 5 weeks. It takes 4 weeks just to cross the Pacific. It takes another week to cross North America by train for companies like Rapido, Atlas, BLI, etc. Once it arrives it as to be warehoused and sorted, which can take another week (depending on the number of units and SKU's made). Then it has to be shipped to wholesalers, dealers, and direct buyers, which can take, yes, another week. So just from the time the models leave the Chinese factory, it can be 6 to 7 weeks to make it into the consumer's hands.As for the length of time it takes from the first advertised delivery date to the actual delivery date, sometimes Stuff Happens. Manufacturing problems crop up and need to be addressed. No manufacturer wants to miss a deadline; they only do it because they have to.Manufacturers choose to make a model months before the announcement. They do prototype research, decide what versions to make, and sketch it up in 3D CAD. Then it's announced with a deadline and they start taking orders. If the orders are slow, they'll push the deadline back because they aren't going to make a model that's going to lose money. Meanwhile, they start refining the CAD file, fixing the problems that crop up while also making sure it can be shot in plastic. Then they come up with the paint jobs and colors. All in all, it takes around a year between the announcement and the delivery of the model...and that's on a good day.Sheldon,Back then, Athearn engines cost $20 and they only made ~5 new locos per decade. Today, engines cost north of $200 without sound and manufacturers are bringing out multiple new engines every year. It's not the same marketplace you had back then.And it's great that you're building a working roster of locos, but manufacturers are trying to pay off business loans, house payments, and put food on their table. As you said, they will make what sells, and if they can make more money selling yet another Big Boy vs. a Pacific, then that's what they're gonna do. The market determines what is made, not the manufacturers.As for high end BLI vs. Bachmann... BLI at its best is better than Bachmann at its best. And yes, that includes BLI's brass and Hybrid lines. Bachmann can make some really good stuff, don't get me wrong (the EM-1 is very nice), but BLI can make it better. They don't always do it (as your own experiences show), but they can (and do).Just my opinion. Someone who is building a roster of New Haven engines for an operating layout, not collecting generic models of locomotives. I've had plenty of positive experiences pre-ordering models and I am hardly alone in this.riogrande5761,We almost had a high end G-85 model, but Walthers announced their model and that was that.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI'm not getting in line and promising to buy months or years in advance.
If I had to pony up money, I don't either. But it's been years since that question ever came up for me. They're just interested in whether or not you're likely top buy something. I'm the kind of fellow who's not fickle about such things. If I say I want something, I do and I'll be patient for it. Remember, I'm in HOn3, so patience is a way of life. The Blackstone K-36 was annpunced something like a decade ago. It's still alive, but the sands keep shifting underneath things and so far, no models for sale.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI'm not mad at these companies for how they feel they have to do business. But I'm not defending them or making excuses for them either. Make the trains then sell them..........
I'm not really defending anything here either, just trying to note that things often aren't as simple as we'd like them to be. I'll bet even the SMD people have to stand in line to get a spot to have their cars built. No one has a vertically intergrated business in this industry. Everyone is dependent on contractors and many factors beyond their control, lots of opportunities for things to be held up or require a different direction beteween design concept and models in the store.
And there is rarely a big pot of money to just throw at problems, as the "solutions" often suggested seem to assume. I'm amazed at what arrives in high quality and relatively affordable form. If it's something arriving that's late, all the better, at least that project didn't fall apart as so many do.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
rrebell I like Bachmann stuff, now. I remember when Bachmann just made garbage but then they came out with their Spectrum line. The very first Spectrum was not very good but much better than what they had been doing and then they started doing it right. Their new stuff is like wow, considering the price I accually have to pay. I bought an S4 DCC and sound for under $70 and the detailing is fantastic, super thin handrails and great sound. Yes they may have gotten a detail wrong, I wouldn't notice or the sound might be better on someone elses but I am fairly picky and this is so much better than having to do it all for yourself in upgrades.
I like Bachmann stuff, now. I remember when Bachmann just made garbage but then they came out with their Spectrum line. The very first Spectrum was not very good but much better than what they had been doing and then they started doing it right. Their new stuff is like wow, considering the price I accually have to pay. I bought an S4 DCC and sound for under $70 and the detailing is fantastic, super thin handrails and great sound. Yes they may have gotten a detail wrong, I wouldn't notice or the sound might be better on someone elses but I am fairly picky and this is so much better than having to do it all for yourself in upgrades.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL A few comments about Bachmann. Since the introduction of the Spectrum Line, they have been on a program of product improvement across their whole line. Today's latest releases, the USRA Mike and Pacific, the Streamlined K4, etc, may not say "Spectrum" but the drives are every bit as good. Bachmann realized that ultra high detail thing was "wearing off" with many customers, so they found a balance. They moved many early Spectrum models, that might not have been as detailed as the best Spectrum models, to the regular line. But they are exactly the same product. They did downgrade the detail on the 4-6-0 with its recent reintroduction. The new releases are well detailed, maybe not equal to the "best" Spectrum models they built, but still in the same general level. I have some Broadway steam, I don't see were it is any better detailed than any of my Bachmann steam. And I have had more problems with BLI locos than Bachmann locos......... I do believe that BLI and MTH purposely balance detail with handling durablity, and generally I don't see were they look any better or deserve all the praise. I think the "infatuation" with BLI and/or MTH, is about sound, I'm not a sound guy. My BLI locos no longer have decoders or speakers....... Paul says "BLI is high end, Bachmann is not", well you can't prove it by me based on my "user experiance". Detail on a plastic/die cast steam loco, Proto Heritage line and the Rivarossi H8 win hands down over all of them. But a close second are: Spectrum Heavy Mountain Bachmann Berkshire Spectrum 2-6-6-2 Spectrum 2-10-2 Just my opinon, someone who is building a believable roster for an operating layout, not collecting models of famous locomotives. Sheldon
A few comments about Bachmann.
Since the introduction of the Spectrum Line, they have been on a program of product improvement across their whole line.
Today's latest releases, the USRA Mike and Pacific, the Streamlined K4, etc, may not say "Spectrum" but the drives are every bit as good.
Bachmann realized that ultra high detail thing was "wearing off" with many customers, so they found a balance.
They moved many early Spectrum models, that might not have been as detailed as the best Spectrum models, to the regular line. But they are exactly the same product.
They did downgrade the detail on the 4-6-0 with its recent reintroduction.
The new releases are well detailed, maybe not equal to the "best" Spectrum models they built, but still in the same general level.
I have some Broadway steam, I don't see were it is any better detailed than any of my Bachmann steam. And I have had more problems with BLI locos than Bachmann locos.........
I do believe that BLI and MTH purposely balance detail with handling durablity, and generally I don't see were they look any better or deserve all the praise.
I think the "infatuation" with BLI and/or MTH, is about sound, I'm not a sound guy. My BLI locos no longer have decoders or speakers.......
Paul says "BLI is high end, Bachmann is not", well you can't prove it by me based on my "user experiance".
Detail on a plastic/die cast steam loco, Proto Heritage line and the Rivarossi H8 win hands down over all of them. But a close second are:
Spectrum Heavy Mountain
Bachmann Berkshire
Spectrum 2-6-6-2
Spectrum 2-10-2
Just my opinon, someone who is building a believable roster for an operating layout, not collecting models of famous locomotives.
I tend to agree with you especially the Bachmann Consolidation. I own three of them and quality wise they are as good as any of my BLI and better than some. I have a BLI K-4 Pacific that doesn't get electrical pickup on the left side drivers so it's only one truck from the tender that is getting electric and that promotes stalling. I thought I had fixed that once but it's acting up again.
I got spoiled when I got my first sound loco and now like it in all my locos. I can live without it in my diesels but to me, if a steamer isn't chuffing, it doesn't seem right. Two of my Consolidations were bought before they offered them in sound. The one with sound is one of my favorite locos. Don't know if I'll be making any more additions to the roster but that's good to know about Bachmann if they do.
mlehman John-NYBW If a company announces a delivery date of July 1, that should mean it is ready to start producing them today. That will give them five weeks to produce, package, and distribute them to the retail market. With global supply chains, 5 weeks is about enough time for the finished models to make it from final assembly to the hobby shop is probably pushing things a bit... And that's just for getting from there to here. Then consider the lead times for marketing. It's oprobably at least two months between ad placement and when it appears in print. Then with things like the current crisis thrown in, all sorts of uncertainty. Are the workers avaialable and healthy? Are the finances you set up two months ago still relevant? Will there be some new tarriff out of the blue to shoot holes in your budget? Will the massive grounding of airliners cancel that scheduled flight you'd planned months ago? Did the principals on this side of the pond themselves stay healthy and faacing the same personal situations as when the contracts were signed? It's far too optimistic to believe that every small business has all these facftors within and under it's control. And even the biggest of our mfgs is barely more than a small business. If it batters corporations with far greater resources and control over their supply chains, it can walk all over the typical hardworking model RR vendor despite the best of efforts and estimates.
John-NYBW If a company announces a delivery date of July 1, that should mean it is ready to start producing them today. That will give them five weeks to produce, package, and distribute them to the retail market.
With global supply chains, 5 weeks is about enough time for the finished models to make it from final assembly to the hobby shop is probably pushing things a bit...
And that's just for getting from there to here.
Then consider the lead times for marketing. It's oprobably at least two months between ad placement and when it appears in print.
Then with things like the current crisis thrown in, all sorts of uncertainty. Are the workers avaialable and healthy? Are the finances you set up two months ago still relevant? Will there be some new tarriff out of the blue to shoot holes in your budget? Will the massive grounding of airliners cancel that scheduled flight you'd planned months ago? Did the principals on this side of the pond themselves stay healthy and faacing the same personal situations as when the contracts were signed?
It's far too optimistic to believe that every small business has all these facftors within and under it's control. And even the biggest of our mfgs is barely more than a small business. If it batters corporations with far greater resources and control over their supply chains, it can walk all over the typical hardworking model RR vendor despite the best of efforts and estimates.
No question, doing the manufacturing on the other side of the globe changes things a bit.
But I'm not getting in line and promising to buy months or years in advance.
Nor will I plan my modeling around what might get made next year.
My ONLY positive preorder experiance has been with Spring Mills Depot, knowing that they literally are just two guys importing trains.
Rapido decided to not make undecorated PA's after I placed a preorder. Guess what, they have yet to make anything I need.
If I really decide I want those PA's, I will find another Proto set on Ebay.
I'm not mad at these companies for how they feel they have to do business. But I'm not defending them or making excuses for them either.
Make the trains then sell them..........
We really seem to have more good choices than we ever had these days. Sure, some models are duplicated. Examples include Tangent and ScaleTrains offering the same Airslide hopper and road names. I saw ScaleTrains at the WGH show with blue RI and NP airslides and then Tangent announced theres a month or so later and you could order them now, not 6-8 months in the future when they ready to sell after production is complete:
Both models appear to be duplicates between Tangent and ST, although the RI is a ST "operator" series vs. the Tangent full shebang version.
Sometimes announced models do get cancelled. ExactRail announced the Southern Pacific C-50 bay window caboose but Athearn Genesis was further along and so ER canceled theres.
I would have liked to see a Genesis Quality G85 flat car, but the Walthers Mainline series is a pretty nice looking model.
Yes, some companies announced a year ahead of expected arrival (like Athearn and Walthers) and some announce when models are ready to ship to the customer (like Tangent). Then there is Intermountain that literally takes mulitple years after announcing a model that you can get it. The SD40T-2 must have been announced 5 years ago, maybe more since I've lost track, and there is still no idea when they will be manufactured and availalbe. I've been waiting at least 2 years for the PFE ice reefers that finally did ship and I have them. Some can say they don't bother, but if it's a model you need, I call shens on that statement.
Anyway, we really do have it good despite all the grumbling. It seem the more choices we have, the more disatisfied some people get - but that's human nature it seems. We can't always appreciate how good we really have it.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
John-NYBWIf a company announces a delivery date of July 1, that should mean it is ready to start producing them today. That will give them five weeks to produce, package, and distribute them to the retail market.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL John-NYBW mlehman John-NYBW we seem to be willing to accept things in this hobby that we would never accept with any other consumer product. Do you think Apple would still be in business if they had delivered the original MacIntosh computer 3 years after their original announced delivery date? It's one thing to build computers in a select, limited number of models. It would be something else if they came a much wider variety of physical forms, all with different paint schemes and upholstery along with maybe 40 different operating systems. That's still no excuse for announcing delivery dates until you are ready to start producing what you promise. If a company announces a delivery date of July 1, that should mean it is ready to start producing them today. That will give them five weeks to produce, package, and distribute them to the retail market. If they aren't ready to do that, then they should just shut up. Three years time from an announced delivery date to the actual delivery date is ridiculous and there is no excuse for it. I agree. I worked in the retail side of this business from 1970 thru 1980. Manufacturers like Athearn did not announce new product until the machines were actually making it. And while there was some duplication, companies like Athearn and Roundhouse went after different segments of the market rather than compete directly on every item. How many companies are making Big Boys recently? I have never owned one. But I own about 60 steam locomotive models. And better yet for the manufacturers I own multiple copies of most of the models I have. Just a sample, I have: 5 - Spectrum 2-6-6-2's 9 - Spectrum 2-8-0's 9 - Spetcrum USRA Heavy 4-8-2's 3 - Spectrum USRA Light 2-10-2's 2 - Spectrum 4-6-0's 5 - Bachmann 2-8-4's (now 2-8-2's) 2 - BLI USRA Heavy 2-8-2's 2 - BLI N&W 2-6-6-4's 2 - BLI READING 4-8-4's 2 - Proto 2-8-8-2's (now 2-8-8-0's) 2 - Proto 0-8-0's Why? Because I am building a working roster for a railroad, not a museum display of famous locomotives. BLI promised a B&O P7 for a decade, what we got was an average detail quality generic USRA Pacific with the wrong sized drivers lettered B&O. They keep making Big Boys because they sell, but they have no idea what they have missed by not making stuff no one else makes. Sheldon
John-NYBW mlehman John-NYBW we seem to be willing to accept things in this hobby that we would never accept with any other consumer product. Do you think Apple would still be in business if they had delivered the original MacIntosh computer 3 years after their original announced delivery date? It's one thing to build computers in a select, limited number of models. It would be something else if they came a much wider variety of physical forms, all with different paint schemes and upholstery along with maybe 40 different operating systems. That's still no excuse for announcing delivery dates until you are ready to start producing what you promise. If a company announces a delivery date of July 1, that should mean it is ready to start producing them today. That will give them five weeks to produce, package, and distribute them to the retail market. If they aren't ready to do that, then they should just shut up. Three years time from an announced delivery date to the actual delivery date is ridiculous and there is no excuse for it.
mlehman John-NYBW we seem to be willing to accept things in this hobby that we would never accept with any other consumer product. Do you think Apple would still be in business if they had delivered the original MacIntosh computer 3 years after their original announced delivery date? It's one thing to build computers in a select, limited number of models. It would be something else if they came a much wider variety of physical forms, all with different paint schemes and upholstery along with maybe 40 different operating systems.
John-NYBW we seem to be willing to accept things in this hobby that we would never accept with any other consumer product. Do you think Apple would still be in business if they had delivered the original MacIntosh computer 3 years after their original announced delivery date?
It's one thing to build computers in a select, limited number of models. It would be something else if they came a much wider variety of physical forms, all with different paint schemes and upholstery along with maybe 40 different operating systems.
That's still no excuse for announcing delivery dates until you are ready to start producing what you promise. If a company announces a delivery date of July 1, that should mean it is ready to start producing them today. That will give them five weeks to produce, package, and distribute them to the retail market. If they aren't ready to do that, then they should just shut up. Three years time from an announced delivery date to the actual delivery date is ridiculous and there is no excuse for it.
I agree. I worked in the retail side of this business from 1970 thru 1980. Manufacturers like Athearn did not announce new product until the machines were actually making it.
And while there was some duplication, companies like Athearn and Roundhouse went after different segments of the market rather than compete directly on every item.
How many companies are making Big Boys recently? I have never owned one. But I own about 60 steam locomotive models. And better yet for the manufacturers I own multiple copies of most of the models I have.
Just a sample, I have:
5 - Spectrum 2-6-6-2's
9 - Spectrum 2-8-0's
9 - Spetcrum USRA Heavy 4-8-2's
3 - Spectrum USRA Light 2-10-2's
2 - Spectrum 4-6-0's
5 - Bachmann 2-8-4's (now 2-8-2's)
2 - BLI USRA Heavy 2-8-2's
2 - BLI N&W 2-6-6-4's
2 - BLI READING 4-8-4's
2 - Proto 2-8-8-2's (now 2-8-8-0's)
2 - Proto 0-8-0's
Why? Because I am building a working roster for a railroad, not a museum display of famous locomotives.
BLI promised a B&O P7 for a decade, what we got was an average detail quality generic USRA Pacific with the wrong sized drivers lettered B&O.
They keep making Big Boys because they sell, but they have no idea what they have missed by not making stuff no one else makes.
On my last DC layout which I tore down about 20 years ago, my steamers were Rivarossi and my diesels were Athearn BB except for two Atlas diesels. I modeled the UP so I did have one Big Boy on the roster in addition to two Challengers and two Northerns, none of which have a place on my current DCC eastern set layout. Still I can't bring myself to part with them.
I did have one Bachmann Consolidation that I couldn't keep the front truck on the track so finally I turned it into an 0-8-0. Since starting the new layout, I have a number of Bachmann Spectrum steamers on the roster including 3 Consolidations which don't have the same problem the old standard line Consolidation had. The Spectrum line is quite a bit better than the old standard line. I also have two of the 4-6-0s which operate on my branchline. I was disappointed to learn they were phasing out that line because I knew I could buy a Spectrum loco with confidence I just don't have in their standard line. It probably doesn't matter because I have just about all the steamers on my roster than I can use.
I don't have near as large a steam fleet as you but still enough that I need all 14 or my roundhouse stalls even when a good portion of the roster is out on the road. I am a freelancer now so I don't require specific models. I just go for what is available and make it do. I buy undecorated when available but it's easy to paint over the lettering on steamers when necessary. I have 3 Mikados, a couple Berkshires, and 5 Hudsons. I have roughly an equal number of diesels with a preference for F-units. I can't tell you off hand how many I have but most are in AB sets. Most of my locos are from BLI, Proto, or Spectrum.
ATLANTIC CENTRALEverybody knows the B&O P7d was the best Pacific..... But we still don't have a decent model of that loco except in brass.
Reading between the lines in this article
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/2010/scratch-building-b-and-o-cincinnatian-locomotive/
you might be able to get there relatively inexpensively starting with one of the 3768 models.
SeeYou190 I don't think the K4 has a limited maket. Ever since I was a little kid, it has been a Railfan culture thing to debate whether the SOUTHERN PS4 or the PENNSYLVANIA K4 was the best Pacific locomotive. The K4 models always sell. It seems like an easy decision to make a model of one every few years. -Kevin
I don't think the K4 has a limited maket.
Ever since I was a little kid, it has been a Railfan culture thing to debate whether the SOUTHERN PS4 or the PENNSYLVANIA K4 was the best Pacific locomotive.
The K4 models always sell. It seems like an easy decision to make a model of one every few years.
-Kevin
Everybody knows the B&O P7d was the best Pacific.....
But we still don't have a decent model of that loco except in brass.
John-NYBWwe seem to be willing to accept things in this hobby that we would never accept with any other consumer product. Do you think Apple would still be in business if they had delivered the original MacIntosh computer 3 years after their original announced delivery date?
maxman SeeYou190 I don't think the K4 has a limited market.
SeeYou190 I don't think the K4 has a limited market.
SeeYou190I don't think the K4 has a limited maket.
What exactly defines a limited market? Look at the F7. They have been making them for so many years one would think that anyone who wanted one would certainly have one by now. Yet it seems that every year a different manufacturer comes out with a new model.
John-NYBW,We are a niche hobby in a very tiny marketplace. How many Macs have been sold? Millions? Billions? Compare that to a typical HO loco model of 3000 to 5000 units. It's not fair to compare a high production consumer product by a zillion dollar company with a hand-made model train created by people who are not in this business to get rich. Almost all the employees in the USA that work in model railroading are model railroaders (with exceptions like Walthers, et al); they do this because they are hobbyists, not because they are looking to get stock options.If the model railroading manufacturers would be held to the same standard as Apple, there would be no manufacturers. They'd all be out of business.csxns,Perhaps. But I will point out that Spring Mills is literally two guys in a model railroad club that put their own money into their product. When they come to Springfield every year, they have a woman making their boxes for them. I talked with her and she said she only works for them at the show; she's a waitress at restaurant near the club they belong to and they hire her for that show only. The two guys are hobbyists that happen to import model trains, not the other way around.Dave,It still happens. I was personally pushing for G-85 TOFC's from any manufacturer that would listen. I actually had one tell me they were going to go for it and to please send them all info I had on G-85's. Less than 6 months later, just as design work was starting, Walthers announced they were making the G-85's. The other company than canceled the project before it got too far. But if Walthers had waited another 6 months or so, we might have had two G-85's on the market at the same time.
FlyingScotaman I would like to know why after decades of neglect 2 manufacturers will produce the same model within months of one another. Example. The HO streamlined PRR K4. 1st Bachmann then BLI. I can see why everyone will want to field a UP SD70 or a Big Boy, but the K4? Now that has to be a slim market and where there may be the Bachmann guys who just wont come up with the cash for a BLI and vice versa there will be those who buy BLI and wouldn't accept the Bachmann specimen there must be a fair sized mid ground who are slightly ambivalent and they are the first come first to buy folks who have been missed by the second offering. BLI have had the chassis for this for years and years so why now? Why not pick something more unique. Just pondering.
I would like to know why after decades of neglect 2 manufacturers will produce the same model within months of one another.
Example. The HO streamlined PRR K4. 1st Bachmann then BLI.
I can see why everyone will want to field a UP SD70 or a Big Boy, but the K4? Now that has to be a slim market and where there may be the Bachmann guys who just wont come up with the cash for a BLI and vice versa there will be those who buy BLI and wouldn't accept the Bachmann specimen there must be a fair sized mid ground who are slightly ambivalent and they are the first come first to buy folks who have been missed by the second offering.
BLI have had the chassis for this for years and years so why now?
Why not pick something more unique.
Just pondering.
First of all, I don't model the UP or the PRR, but I'm way more likely to buy a K4 than a Big Boy or SD70 (whatever that is).
The street price of the Bachmann loco is about $280.00 The street price of the Broadway loco will be likely be about $440.00 But based on my own personal experiances with both brands, nothing suggests to me that the Broadway model will be better quality or more detailed.
The only advantage the Broadway model might have is better sound, maybe even at the expense of some detail.
I don't like onboard sound, so that would move me toward the Bachmann model.
Bachmann had a non streamlined K4 model before Broadway was even in business......
There was way less of this duplication years ago, I'm not sure why we see so much of it today. It does not seem like good business to me?