Have any of the manufacturers come out with a current version of the 4014 with its oil tender instead of the coal tender it had when it was hauling freights for the UP? It also has a painted version of the "Big Boy" chalk mark put on the front of the first Big Boy off the line which is where it got its nickname.
BLI, apparently...not sure about the chalk lettering up front, but you can click to get enlarged views. Maybe do it with a single hair wiped once after dipping...?
https://www.broadway-limited.com/4387upbigboy4014excursionversionwilsonaftercoolersounddcdccho-2.aspx
I believe the Athearn 4014 due out in Oct 2020 will have a decal of the chalk "Big Boy" you can apply to the boiler if you wish.
I haven't been able to find one of the BLI 4014's for sale anywhere. I'm sure they were pretty well all grabbed when the prototype 4014 was making it's tour. I don't believe it had the chalk Big Boy in any form.
MTH makes the 4014. It even has the "Big Boy" chalk writing on the smokebox door. I don't actually have this model, but I have an MTH catalog with photos of it. This is the catalog if you're interested. The Big Boy is on page 10. https://www.mthtrains.com/sites/default/files/catalog_files/2019_ho_v_1/index.html
I wonder if the guy at the factory hadn't chalked Big Boy on the first one off the line giving the 4000s their nickname if they would have enjoyed the lore they do today. Would there have been the effort to restore one? I doubt it. What's in a name? In this case, everything.
I guess...to each his own, John. I haven't felt the strong appeal of the 4-8-4, and the name didn't improve things for me. I prefer the Challenger.
Why couldn't it have been Leviathan, or Atlas, or Goliath? Big Boy came out a few years prior to Little Boy. Go figure.
John-NYBW I wonder if the guy at the factory hadn't chalked Big Boy on the first one off the line giving the 4000s their nickname if they would have enjoyed the lore they do today. Would there have been the effort to restore one? I doubt it. What's in a name? In this case, everything.
Well, it was going to be a notable example of modern steam with or without "BigBoy" chalked on the front.
That said, I've never owned a model of one, don't plan to own a model of one, as built or as running today.
I think it is great that it has been saved, the UP deserves great respect and praise for their steam program.
What does sometimes bother me a little is some of the false assumptions about the 4000 class.
It is not the biggest wheelbase, that prize goes to the PRR S1.
It does not have the most TE, the winner is the GN R2.
It does not have the most drawbar HP, the C&O H8 has 20% more.
It is only the heaviest by 950 lbs, a margin of only 1/10th of one percent over the C&O H8.
It is big enough with its rather long wheelbase on each engine set that it would not have been useful on a great many railroads, especially in the east were locos like the EM-1, H-8, Y6b and Class A defined big in their own terms. All four of these locos showed that BIG could also have a good balance of speed, power and nimble on the winding trackage of Appalachia.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL John-NYBW I wonder if the guy at the factory hadn't chalked Big Boy on the first one off the line giving the 4000s their nickname if they would have enjoyed the lore they do today. Would there have been the effort to restore one? I doubt it. What's in a name? In this case, everything. Well, it was going to be a notable example of modern steam with or without "BigBoy" chalked on the front. That said, I've never owned a model of one, don't plan to own a model of one, as built or as running today. I think it is great that it has been saved, the UP deserves great respect and praise for their steam program. What does sometimes bother me a little is some of the false assumptions about the 4000 class. It is not the biggest wheelbase, that prize goes to the PRR S1. It does not have the most TE, the winner is the GN S2. It does not have the most drawbar HP, the C&O H8 has 20% more. It is only the heaviest by 950 lbs, a margin of only 1/10th of one percent over the C&O H8. It is big enough with its rather long wheelbase on each engine set that it would not have been useful on a great many railroads, especially in the east were locos like the EM-1, H-8, Y6b and Class A defined big in their own terms. All four of these locos showed that BIG could also have a good balance of speed, power and nimble on the winding trackage of Appalachia. Sheldon
It does not have the most TE, the winner is the GN S2.
That more or less confirms what I said. The nickname Big Boy went a long way toward seperating the 4000 class from the rest of the powerful articulated steam locomotives being operated by railroads around the country. None of them captured the fancy of railfans like the Big Boy did. All you have to do is look at how many different versions have been manufactured over the years. Way more than any of the other articulated locomotives from steam's final years.
xboxtravis7992 John-NYBW I wonder if the guy at the factory hadn't chalked Big Boy on the first one off the line giving the 4000s their nickname if they would have enjoyed the lore they do today. Would there have been the effort to restore one? I doubt it. What's in a name? In this case, everything. I think the size appeal certainly would have helped it be restored eventually, but the Big Boy gives it a strong appeal; it helps hint at the size and power of the engine in the name alone.I dunno though, I personally prefer the working class name of "Wasatch" if in part because it names the mountain range the 4-8-8-4's were built to conquer. Just as how names like "Niagra," "Pacific," "Northern," "Mikado," "Santa Fe," etc. all tell you something about where the first engines of that type were built for. I am also partial to Wasatch in part because I live near that range and my workplace and school is nestled right up against those mountains... so there is certainly a local bias there. But at the end of it all, Big Boy has a strong naming appeal. It conveys power and strength in a way Wasatch never would have; and it made sure that everyone worldwide who knew anything about trains would remember the simple name of "Big Boy" and the locomotive it stood for...
I think the size appeal certainly would have helped it be restored eventually, but the Big Boy gives it a strong appeal; it helps hint at the size and power of the engine in the name alone.I dunno though, I personally prefer the working class name of "Wasatch" if in part because it names the mountain range the 4-8-8-4's were built to conquer. Just as how names like "Niagra," "Pacific," "Northern," "Mikado," "Santa Fe," etc. all tell you something about where the first engines of that type were built for. I am also partial to Wasatch in part because I live near that range and my workplace and school is nestled right up against those mountains... so there is certainly a local bias there. But at the end of it all, Big Boy has a strong naming appeal. It conveys power and strength in a way Wasatch never would have; and it made sure that everyone worldwide who knew anything about trains would remember the simple name of "Big Boy" and the locomotive it stood for...
I've read that UP trainmen simply called them the 4000s. If the name Wasatch had caught on, I think a lot of people would have had to look up where the Wasatch mountains were. I knew about the Big Boy long before I ever heard of the Wasatch mountains.
Another factor in the "mystique" of the BigBoy, is the mystique of the west. A bug I have never been bitten by.
I have models of H-8's, Y class, A class, and EM-1's, because I model the east........
But for every model I have of some big articulated monster, I have about 10 models of average, medium sized, everyday work horse locos like Mikado's, Consolidation's, Mountain's, Pacific's, and 10 Wheeler's.
Most tractive effort? For a non-one-off, isn't that the Virginian AE Class 2-10-10-2 at 176,600 pounds simple and 147,200 pounds compound?
John
PRR8259 Most tractive effort? For a non-one-off, isn't that the Virginian AE Class 2-10-10-2 at 176,600 pounds simple and 147,200 pounds compound? John
Yes, assuming we use the simple expansion TE. I have never seen any definitive information on how long or at what speed the AE could maintain in simple mode. But no question, there were at least three or four locos with more TE than the BigBoy.
And to correct a typo on my part, the GN 2-8-8-2 is an R-2, with a rated TE of 162,475
You guys have busted one of my life-long myths
Up until today, I had always seen the Big Boy as the biggest, the heaviest and the most powerfull steam engine in the world. Now I had to learn, that it was "only" the heaviest, but was surpassed by others in the vitals of a steam engine. I knew it couldn´t be the fastest, that title is still held by Gresley´s LNER A4 Pacific "Mallard".
In any case, the Big Boy is certainly the best known steam engine in the world, even ahead of Stephenson´s "Rocket".
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
As far as steam locomotives go, the Big Boy was destined to live in myth and legend forever. They could have nick-named it the "Wildebeast" ot "Bullfrog", and that would be all we talked about. Big Boy is a pretty stupid name when you consider what else could have been come up with if a little thought had been applied to it.
Its proportions and lines are perfect. The scenery it operated in was perfect. And, it was able to be photographed many thousands of times in operation.
No other machine that I know of was as magnificent. Even non-railroad-fans can see one and know they are looking at something special.
All that being said, I will never own one. It just is not to my taste.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
The name Big Boy is glued to the UP class 4000 forever! Do a web search and the first entry is about this iconic steam engine. It is so well known world-wide, that Märklin/Trix probably sold more of their models in Europe, than in the US.Hardly a Märklin collector over here without having one in his display case!
Tinplate Toddler The name Big Boy is glued to the UP class 4000 forever! Do a web search and the first entry is about this iconic steam engine. It is so well known world-wide, that Märklin/Trix probably sold more of their models in Europe, than in the US.Hardly a Märklin collector over here without having one in his display case!
Here in the US as well, I suspect a great many models of this loco, no matter what brand, have been sold with the purchaser intending only to display/collect them.
I have never purchased any model train just as a collector/display piece. Nor would I ever be motivated to do so.............
And while no one is questioning the Mallard record, the PRR E6 Atlantic was easily capable of 115 mph or more, and proved its sustained high speed ability on the Lindberg news reel run, averaging 82.7 mph on the 250 mile, three hour trip. In my mind equally as impressive as hitting 126 mph for just a few minutes.
ATLANTIC CENTRALIn my mind equally as impressive as hitting 126 mph for just a few minutes.
Certainly is - especially when said record was not acknowledged by the loco´s designer himself and achieved on a slight downhill grade!
Nevertheless - the Big Boy is a big boy, though I am more for the light-footed NG steamers of Colorado!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Tinplate Toddler The name Big Boy is glued to the UP class 4000 forever! Do a web search and the first entry is about this iconic steam engine. It is so well known world-wide, that Märklin/Trix probably sold more of their models in Europe, than in the US.Hardly a Märklin collector over here without having one in his display case! Here in the US as well, I suspect a great many models of this loco, no matter what brand, have been sold with the purchaser intending only to display/collect them. I have never purchased any model train just as a collector/display piece. Nor would I ever be motivated to do so............. And while no one is questioning the Mallard record, the PRR E6 Atlantic was easily capable of 115 mph or more, and proved its sustained high speed ability on the Lindberg news reel run, averaging 82.7 mph on the 250 mile, three hour trip. In my mind equally as impressive as hitting 126 mph for just a few minutes. Sheldon
Well if you just want it for display, Revell makes a non-operational HO plastic kit for considerably less than an operational model. I don't know how the detail compares to others.
Paul
IRONROOSTERWell if you just want it for display, Revell makes a non-operational HO plastic kit for considerably less than an operational model. I don't know how the detail compares to others.
For my taste, this model looks exactly like what it is - a cheap plastic model.
IRONROOSTER ATLANTIC CENTRAL Tinplate Toddler The name Big Boy is glued to the UP class 4000 forever! Do a web search and the first entry is about this iconic steam engine. It is so well known world-wide, that Märklin/Trix probably sold more of their models in Europe, than in the US.Hardly a Märklin collector over here without having one in his display case! Here in the US as well, I suspect a great many models of this loco, no matter what brand, have been sold with the purchaser intending only to display/collect them. I have never purchased any model train just as a collector/display piece. Nor would I ever be motivated to do so............. And while no one is questioning the Mallard record, the PRR E6 Atlantic was easily capable of 115 mph or more, and proved its sustained high speed ability on the Lindberg news reel run, averaging 82.7 mph on the 250 mile, three hour trip. In my mind equally as impressive as hitting 126 mph for just a few minutes. Sheldon Well if you just want it for display, Revell makes a non-operational HO plastic kit for considerably less than an operational model. I don't know how the detail compares to others. Paul
Price is not what keeps me from owning a Big Boy, or any other model, strictly for display.
I just don't have the "collector" gene in that way....
During our open-door events, the two locos that attract a lot of the attention are the Thomas train (younger crowd) and my Big Boy. And 99% of the folks don't know its name... I should add that the Locksound decoder helps to make an impression.
Simon
snjroy During our open-door events, the two locos that attract a lot of the attention are the Thomas train (younger crowd) and my Big Boy. And 99% of the folks don't know its name... I should add that the Locksound decoder helps to make an impression. Simon
But my question would be is anyone at your event running a C&O ALLEGHENY, or a B&O EM-1, or a DM&IR M4, or a N&W Y6b or Class A?
If not than your Big Boy has no competition...........
I've been to the Henry Ford museum and walked around the C&O Allegheny. I've been to Steamtown and stood in the cab of the Big Boy.
Sorry UP, the Allegheny wins in my book.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I found this picture of Alleghany 1604:
https://live.staticflickr.com/2922/14031124424_7dd06e3427_b.jpg
Anybody know where it's located?
John-NYBW I found this picture of Alleghany 1604: https://live.staticflickr.com/2922/14031124424_7dd06e3427_b.jpg Anybody know where it's located?
That's a pretty old picture because that loco is now at the B&O museum in Baltimore. It has been there, and indoors, since 1986. Before that it spent some time in Russell, KY and Roanoke, VA.
rrinker I've been to the Henry Ford museum and walked around the C&O Allegheny. I've been to Steamtown and stood in the cab of the Big Boy. Sorry UP, the Allegheny wins in my book. --Randy
Having also seen both of those, and the Allegheny in Baltimore many times, I agree.
John-NYBWI found this picture of Alleghany 1604: https://live.staticflickr.com/2922/14031124424_7dd06e3427_b.jpg Anybody know where it's located?
Looks like the Roanoke Transportation Museum days (pre-1985 flood, and of course pre-VMT).
I tried to find pictures of the locomotive at the shopping center but couldn't -- someone like Mike will manage.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd while no one is questioning the Mallard record, the PRR E6 Atlantic was easily capable of 115 mph or more, and proved its sustained high speed ability on the Lindbergh newsreel run, averaging 82.7 mph on the 250 mile, three hour trip.
I assume you have actual proof of an E6s running that fast. Personally I'd doubt it. Neither the valves nor the exhaust tract of that locomotive would support it.
This is an example of the sort of 'thinking' that produced 127mph between AY and Elida with an E3. It's easy to claim your favorite went fast as hell ... somewhat more difficult to explain why it will run happily all day at 92mph, is choking at 97, and only goes over about 105 down a 30% downgrade with a tailwind... if then.
A K4s, which one can consider as an enlarged E6s with a few additional concerns, was similarly limited to somewhere in the 92mph region, and while it could be pushed to close to 100mph it wouldn't be a pleasant experience. There are obvious places where a four-coupled engine has a high-speed advantage, and PRR of course famously considered this a desideratum for fast balanced running ... on eight-drivered power. If you look carefully at the developed power/speed relationship of the T1 vs. the T1a, you can get an idea of the tradeoff of using a radial valve drive and piston valves vs. poppets, particularly above 85mph where the performance curves begin to diverge much as expected from the Lima K4 tests (when you adjust out the benefits of sine-wave superheater and front-end throttle in assessing actual improvement over a 'stock' K4)
It would have been interesting to see what PRR could have produced as the E8 Atlantic (their version of an 84"-drivered high-speed locomotive for light trains) -- there is little question that that design would do over 115mph; I suspect considerably over.
Remember that far more 'capable' designs proved able to run 100mph but not very much higher. The C&NW E-4, for example, or the "120mph" ATSF 3460 class. These had many advantages over an E6s but couldn't get anywhere near true high speed for reasons that aren't particularly esoteric when you know what to look for.
In my mind equally as impressive as hitting 126 mph for just a few minutes.
If Mallard actually got to "126mph" at all -- which I doubt -- it was not for a few minutes or even a few seconds: it's almost certainly an artifact of a surge in the dynamometer and no one but 4chan kids (or their moral equivalent) really considers otherwise. Gresley himself accepted 125mph ... for a distance measurable in yards. This on an engine with a front-end arrangement highly optimized for top speed; keep in mind that highest speed also implies high power, so somewhere in the 'magic' range of about 40% cutoff, so the corresponding mass flow from your corresponding cyclic less effects like choking at the valves has to be accommodated in the exhaust...
The great thing that is impressive about the Lindbergh run is the skill involved in maintaining maximum achievable speed at all times on a complicated and not particularly high-speed-optimized route. The only thing I remember showing this was in the article about detail running of the Super C (in Classic Trains at the beginning of this century?) where opening the throttle and winding up the cutoff were far from the most important aspects of high-speed train handling.
Some of the French 'performances' were of similar caliber, as 'extreme high speed' wasn't permitted under their sometimes-Mickey-Mouse rules in the relevant part of the '30s, so quick accelerations and staying close to permitted maxima wherever possible were more important: in other words, skill as much as locomotive capability. The development of narrow-firebox 4-6-2s into modern 4-8-0s was one result of this combination of requirements, and explains much both about why the design was successful as built and what's properly required for a minimum-time run (as opposed to a maximum-speed run).
Both high speed and short time can be considered 'equally as impressive' if you have to equate them, but should you really have to? Both are glorious achievements in their own right. (And yes, I think PRR was right to treat 460 as the crown jewel of its collection, and to remember its achievement as one of the great high-water-marks of PRR performance ... and not just by the end of the '20s)
Overmod,
Completely agreed. The 115 mph claim during the Lindberg is strictly anticdotial from trackside PRR employees if I recall.
And you are most correct that the real skill of the Lindberg run was maintaining whatever max speed the trackage would support.
I have lived my whole life near some of that route, and simply holding 90 mph would be tough even today.