jeffhergert John-NYBW I've read that UP trainmen simply called them the 4000s. If the name Wasatch had caught on, I think a lot of people would have had to look up where the Wasatch mountains were. I knew about the Big Boy long before I ever heard of the Wasatch mountains. I think back in the day, many if not most railroaders didn't bother with the 'names' of the wheel arrangements. They just used there number series or maybe their employer's road class when talking about locomotives. It's like railroad slang. I'm sure it was used, some of it still is, but not to the extent that you'll find in the old railroad-school fiction stories. Jeff
John-NYBW I've read that UP trainmen simply called them the 4000s. If the name Wasatch had caught on, I think a lot of people would have had to look up where the Wasatch mountains were. I knew about the Big Boy long before I ever heard of the Wasatch mountains.
I've read that UP trainmen simply called them the 4000s. If the name Wasatch had caught on, I think a lot of people would have had to look up where the Wasatch mountains were. I knew about the Big Boy long before I ever heard of the Wasatch mountains.
I think back in the day, many if not most railroaders didn't bother with the 'names' of the wheel arrangements. They just used there number series or maybe their employer's road class when talking about locomotives.
It's like railroad slang. I'm sure it was used, some of it still is, but not to the extent that you'll find in the old railroad-school fiction stories.
Jeff
A few years ago I got a DVD that was a hodgepodge of railroad related short films and one of them was TV program from the 1950s in which Ed Begley Sr. played a UP engineer. He referred to his loco as the Big Boy. I can't remember the plot exactly but I think he was scheduled for a company physical and he was worried about what it might show and that he wouldn't be able to continue working.
SeeYou190 jeffhergert It's like railroad slang. I'm sure it was used, some of it still is, but not to the extent that you'll find in the old railroad-school fiction stories. I have worked among blue collar tradesman my entire life, and none of them talk like the idiots you see in movies and television. There are very few "slang" words that actually get used by the people who are serious about there profession. It is like the "coke"/"soda" thing I keep hearing about in Georgia. I have eaten in literally hundreds of diners in Georgia, and never once heard a waitress say that. However, in every article I read about slang in the South, there it is. -Kevin
jeffhergert It's like railroad slang. I'm sure it was used, some of it still is, but not to the extent that you'll find in the old railroad-school fiction stories.
I have worked among blue collar tradesman my entire life, and none of them talk like the idiots you see in movies and television. There are very few "slang" words that actually get used by the people who are serious about there profession.
It is like the "coke"/"soda" thing I keep hearing about in Georgia. I have eaten in literally hundreds of diners in Georgia, and never once heard a waitress say that. However, in every article I read about slang in the South, there it is.
-Kevin
When I was growing up we called it "pop" but our cousins from Milwaukee always said "soda".
jeffhergert John-NYBW I've read that UP trainmen simply called them the 4000s. If the name Wasatch had caught on, I think a lot of people would have had to look up where the Wasatch mountains were. I knew about the Big Boy long before I ever heard of the Wasatch mountains. I think back in the day, many if not most railroaders didn't bother with the 'names' of the wheel arrangements. They just used there number series or maybe their employer's road class when talking about locomotives. Jeff
nvm
- Douglas
jeffhergertIt's like railroad slang. I'm sure it was used, some of it still is, but not to the extent that you'll find in the old railroad-school fiction stories.
Living the dream.
IRONROOSTERI guess it's all in how you paint and finish it. Some of the pictures on the Internet look pretty good.
Yes, with proper paint and finish, the Monogram Big Boy model can look amazing. The handrails along the boiler MUST be replaced, but other than that, it can be carefully painted into a nice display model.
ATLANTIC CENTRALOn only two occasions did I test its limits in this area, but both the speedometer and the math from the tachometer readings suggest that the car exceeded 130 mph.
Frankly I'd have little doubt a 'built' 283 in a car the size of a Nova with a 3.08 final drive would go 130+mph. Nor that the gear combinations you had wouldn't facilitate it accelerating to that speed range reasonably. (I'd be tempted to have seen if ecomodder-style streamlining and gap taping might have increased the effective top 'balancing' speed still further...) Some of this will hinge on what your effective top gear in the box was -- were the ratios wide, and was the final drive closer to OD than a 'four-speed with a granny' sort of design optimized around high torque close to the line...
The thing is that IC engine 'speed' only very imperfectly equates to reciprocating steam-locomotive speed, for a fairly wide variety of reasons that are mostly synergistic. Much of the issue of valves, for example, has to do with a combination of effective opening time vs. transfer-port characteristics vs. compression effects, and very, very often this explains best why locomotives have such a short range between 'effective' and 'unachievable' top speed.
Were the steam engine provided with a multiple-gear transmission, some of the cyclic-related concerns can be addressed, and the inherent characteristic of positive-displacement expanders to make good torque at low RPM much better employed. This is also true of some steam turbines when equipped with a Bowes drive or similar arrangement that permits varying shaft speed at constant output torque (without using brakes).
I had a '62 Thunderbird with an unmodified 390 that was good for just over 130mph, and had remarkable acceleration above... well, above first in whatever kind of Cruise-O-Matic and stall-speed converter was in there. (We used to joke about 'instant fifty' coming out of tollbooths and the like). I suspect 'drag' would describe performance in an entirely different way for that car, though, as it had humongously long leaf springs without traction bars and, probably, a reasonably high axle ratio. There is a kind of oblique issue here about what you optimize the engine performance and road speed curves to -- the best example that comes to mind is the Buick turbo V6 installed in the Syclone trucks, which accelerated faster from 20 to about 70 than anything else I've driven (specifically including a '94 Viper) but I have no idea about the top speed in-chassis of. There are plenty of locomotives which ran out of suspension, or safe guiding, or even valve tribology or clearance (as in N&W 610 on test) before they ran out of ability to convert cylinder horsepower into adequate torque.)
Now, the point you're making about locomotives at the start of the post is a valid one, and I think that in the particular context of locomotives like 7002 and 999 the 'achievable' top speed might in fact be remarkably higher than 'mere theory' might predict. That in fact is one of the primary reasons I thought, and still think, that building a replica 999 with modern materials would be a relevant as well as fun exercise. There are some fascinating developments in steam distribution in the late 1880s through the 1890s ... including some around the time of the great speed rivalry in the Atlantic City traffic, where no-holds-barred fastest trains in the world could be supported. It is at least possible that some combination of careful operation could -- if even for a relatively limited time -- generate higher speed via careful knowledge of the machine. Since we have long lost anyone with the right combination of knowledge and touch to do that, and so much of it would be empirical and probably engine- and furthermore fabrication-specific, we'd need an actual prototype, perhaps on actual tracks, first for the practice and training and then for a speed attempt itself.
I do confess to be rubbing my hands with glee to see what 5550 develops on the roller dyno. (It won't be any piddling 126mph, either... and probably better than Alfred Bruce's quiet little assertion of 128+mph to beat the PRR number, too...)
IRONROOSTERI guess it's all in how you paint and finish it.
I have built and painted this kit, but there is no way you can get rid of that cheap plastic look of the wheels and the rods. The Revell engine may be OK to be placed in a roundhouse, where you can see only a small part of it. As a display on a shelf - forget it.
P.S. I "binned" mine after a few days.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
Tinplate Toddler IRONROOSTER Well if you just want it for display, Revell makes a non-operational HO plastic kit for considerably less than an operational model. I don't know how the detail compares to others. For my taste, this model looks exactly like what it is - a cheap plastic model.
IRONROOSTER Well if you just want it for display, Revell makes a non-operational HO plastic kit for considerably less than an operational model. I don't know how the detail compares to others.
For my taste, this model looks exactly like what it is - a cheap plastic model.
I guess it's all in how you paint and finish it. Some of the pictures on the Internet look pretty good.
Paul
Overmod,
Another anticdotial story. Not to go too far afield here, and fully agreeing with your assessment of the engineering science, sometimes machines do defy our understanding of the science, or, often by luck or accident, fall into some perfect balance of the science.
My story: In 1977 I restored and hot rodded a 1963 Chevy Nova SS convertible. Powered by a warmed over 283, w/327 high output heads and cam, Holley, headers, etc. Likely in the 300 hp range, with maybe similar torque.
But my driveline was unusual. It had an M20 four speed with the lower first gear commonly supplied in larger, heavier cars like the Impala. And in had the typical auto trans 3.08:1 ratio 10 bolt rear axle.
The Nova was a light car, and even a V8 convertible was under 2400 lbs.
So here are the well tested performance specs of my little hot rod.
0 to 60 mph - 5.5 seconds
Standing 1/4 mile in street trim - consistantly just under 15 seconds.
Fuel economy - 13-14 mpg city, 22 mpg highway, both if you kept your foot out of it.....
Now for the one only a few "experts" believe, top speed.
The car was equipped with a 160 mph speedometer made from Corvette parts and measured to be reasonably accurate. It was also equipped with a tachometer.
On only two occasions did I test its limits in this area, but both the speedometer and the math from the tachometer readings suggest that the car exceeded 130 mph.
RPM to road speed charts I worked up for the car back then suggest that the driveline combination optimized the power curve of the 327/350 hp heads and cam I had in the 283, giving it just the right balance of torque and power to achieve this speed without running out of rpm.
Did it really go 130 mph? I'm not sure, but it had to be close. And while it may have run out of power soon, it was still pulling when I let off the gas.
Sheldon
Overmod John-NYBW I found this picture of Alleghany 1604: https://live.staticflickr.com/2922/14031124424_7dd06e3427_b.jpg Anybody know where it's located? Looks like the Roanoke Transportation Museum days (pre-1985 flood, and of course pre-VMT). I tried to find pictures of the locomotive at the shopping center but couldn't -- someone like Mike will manage.
John-NYBW I found this picture of Alleghany 1604: https://live.staticflickr.com/2922/14031124424_7dd06e3427_b.jpg Anybody know where it's located?
https://live.staticflickr.com/2922/14031124424_7dd06e3427_b.jpg
Anybody know where it's located?
Looks like the Roanoke Transportation Museum days (pre-1985 flood, and of course pre-VMT).
I tried to find pictures of the locomotive at the shopping center but couldn't -- someone like Mike will manage.
I watched them bring it to Baltimore and build the shopping center. I was selling MATCO TOOLS in those days, and that area was in my territory.
Completely agreed. The 115 mph claim during the Lindberg is strictly anticdotial from trackside PRR employees if I recall.
And you are most correct that the real skill of the Lindberg run was maintaining whatever max speed the trackage would support.
I have lived my whole life near some of that route, and simply holding 90 mph would be tough even today.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd while no one is questioning the Mallard record, the PRR E6 Atlantic was easily capable of 115 mph or more, and proved its sustained high speed ability on the Lindbergh newsreel run, averaging 82.7 mph on the 250 mile, three hour trip.
I assume you have actual proof of an E6s running that fast. Personally I'd doubt it. Neither the valves nor the exhaust tract of that locomotive would support it.
This is an example of the sort of 'thinking' that produced 127mph between AY and Elida with an E3. It's easy to claim your favorite went fast as hell ... somewhat more difficult to explain why it will run happily all day at 92mph, is choking at 97, and only goes over about 105 down a 30% downgrade with a tailwind... if then.
A K4s, which one can consider as an enlarged E6s with a few additional concerns, was similarly limited to somewhere in the 92mph region, and while it could be pushed to close to 100mph it wouldn't be a pleasant experience. There are obvious places where a four-coupled engine has a high-speed advantage, and PRR of course famously considered this a desideratum for fast balanced running ... on eight-drivered power. If you look carefully at the developed power/speed relationship of the T1 vs. the T1a, you can get an idea of the tradeoff of using a radial valve drive and piston valves vs. poppets, particularly above 85mph where the performance curves begin to diverge much as expected from the Lima K4 tests (when you adjust out the benefits of sine-wave superheater and front-end throttle in assessing actual improvement over a 'stock' K4)
It would have been interesting to see what PRR could have produced as the E8 Atlantic (their version of an 84"-drivered high-speed locomotive for light trains) -- there is little question that that design would do over 115mph; I suspect considerably over.
Remember that far more 'capable' designs proved able to run 100mph but not very much higher. The C&NW E-4, for example, or the "120mph" ATSF 3460 class. These had many advantages over an E6s but couldn't get anywhere near true high speed for reasons that aren't particularly esoteric when you know what to look for.
In my mind equally as impressive as hitting 126 mph for just a few minutes.
If Mallard actually got to "126mph" at all -- which I doubt -- it was not for a few minutes or even a few seconds: it's almost certainly an artifact of a surge in the dynamometer and no one but 4chan kids (or their moral equivalent) really considers otherwise. Gresley himself accepted 125mph ... for a distance measurable in yards. This on an engine with a front-end arrangement highly optimized for top speed; keep in mind that highest speed also implies high power, so somewhere in the 'magic' range of about 40% cutoff, so the corresponding mass flow from your corresponding cyclic less effects like choking at the valves has to be accommodated in the exhaust...
The great thing that is impressive about the Lindbergh run is the skill involved in maintaining maximum achievable speed at all times on a complicated and not particularly high-speed-optimized route. The only thing I remember showing this was in the article about detail running of the Super C (in Classic Trains at the beginning of this century?) where opening the throttle and winding up the cutoff were far from the most important aspects of high-speed train handling.
Some of the French 'performances' were of similar caliber, as 'extreme high speed' wasn't permitted under their sometimes-Mickey-Mouse rules in the relevant part of the '30s, so quick accelerations and staying close to permitted maxima wherever possible were more important: in other words, skill as much as locomotive capability. The development of narrow-firebox 4-6-2s into modern 4-8-0s was one result of this combination of requirements, and explains much both about why the design was successful as built and what's properly required for a minimum-time run (as opposed to a maximum-speed run).
Both high speed and short time can be considered 'equally as impressive' if you have to equate them, but should you really have to? Both are glorious achievements in their own right. (And yes, I think PRR was right to treat 460 as the crown jewel of its collection, and to remember its achievement as one of the great high-water-marks of PRR performance ... and not just by the end of the '20s)
John-NYBWI found this picture of Alleghany 1604: https://live.staticflickr.com/2922/14031124424_7dd06e3427_b.jpg Anybody know where it's located?
rrinker I've been to the Henry Ford museum and walked around the C&O Allegheny. I've been to Steamtown and stood in the cab of the Big Boy. Sorry UP, the Allegheny wins in my book. --Randy
I've been to the Henry Ford museum and walked around the C&O Allegheny. I've been to Steamtown and stood in the cab of the Big Boy.
Sorry UP, the Allegheny wins in my book.
--Randy
Having also seen both of those, and the Allegheny in Baltimore many times, I agree.
I found this picture of Alleghany 1604:
That's a pretty old picture because that loco is now at the B&O museum in Baltimore. It has been there, and indoors, since 1986. Before that it spent some time in Russell, KY and Roanoke, VA.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
snjroy During our open-door events, the two locos that attract a lot of the attention are the Thomas train (younger crowd) and my Big Boy. And 99% of the folks don't know its name... I should add that the Locksound decoder helps to make an impression. Simon
During our open-door events, the two locos that attract a lot of the attention are the Thomas train (younger crowd) and my Big Boy. And 99% of the folks don't know its name... I should add that the Locksound decoder helps to make an impression.
Simon
But my question would be is anyone at your event running a C&O ALLEGHENY, or a B&O EM-1, or a DM&IR M4, or a N&W Y6b or Class A?
If not than your Big Boy has no competition...........
IRONROOSTER ATLANTIC CENTRAL Tinplate Toddler The name Big Boy is glued to the UP class 4000 forever! Do a web search and the first entry is about this iconic steam engine. It is so well known world-wide, that Märklin/Trix probably sold more of their models in Europe, than in the US.Hardly a Märklin collector over here without having one in his display case! Here in the US as well, I suspect a great many models of this loco, no matter what brand, have been sold with the purchaser intending only to display/collect them. I have never purchased any model train just as a collector/display piece. Nor would I ever be motivated to do so............. And while no one is questioning the Mallard record, the PRR E6 Atlantic was easily capable of 115 mph or more, and proved its sustained high speed ability on the Lindberg news reel run, averaging 82.7 mph on the 250 mile, three hour trip. In my mind equally as impressive as hitting 126 mph for just a few minutes. Sheldon Well if you just want it for display, Revell makes a non-operational HO plastic kit for considerably less than an operational model. I don't know how the detail compares to others. Paul
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Tinplate Toddler The name Big Boy is glued to the UP class 4000 forever! Do a web search and the first entry is about this iconic steam engine. It is so well known world-wide, that Märklin/Trix probably sold more of their models in Europe, than in the US.Hardly a Märklin collector over here without having one in his display case! Here in the US as well, I suspect a great many models of this loco, no matter what brand, have been sold with the purchaser intending only to display/collect them. I have never purchased any model train just as a collector/display piece. Nor would I ever be motivated to do so............. And while no one is questioning the Mallard record, the PRR E6 Atlantic was easily capable of 115 mph or more, and proved its sustained high speed ability on the Lindberg news reel run, averaging 82.7 mph on the 250 mile, three hour trip. In my mind equally as impressive as hitting 126 mph for just a few minutes. Sheldon
Tinplate Toddler The name Big Boy is glued to the UP class 4000 forever! Do a web search and the first entry is about this iconic steam engine. It is so well known world-wide, that Märklin/Trix probably sold more of their models in Europe, than in the US.Hardly a Märklin collector over here without having one in his display case!
The name Big Boy is glued to the UP class 4000 forever! Do a web search and the first entry is about this iconic steam engine. It is so well known world-wide, that Märklin/Trix probably sold more of their models in Europe, than in the US.Hardly a Märklin collector over here without having one in his display case!
Here in the US as well, I suspect a great many models of this loco, no matter what brand, have been sold with the purchaser intending only to display/collect them.
I have never purchased any model train just as a collector/display piece. Nor would I ever be motivated to do so.............
And while no one is questioning the Mallard record, the PRR E6 Atlantic was easily capable of 115 mph or more, and proved its sustained high speed ability on the Lindberg news reel run, averaging 82.7 mph on the 250 mile, three hour trip. In my mind equally as impressive as hitting 126 mph for just a few minutes.
Well if you just want it for display, Revell makes a non-operational HO plastic kit for considerably less than an operational model. I don't know how the detail compares to others.
Price is not what keeps me from owning a Big Boy, or any other model, strictly for display.
I just don't have the "collector" gene in that way....
IRONROOSTERWell if you just want it for display, Revell makes a non-operational HO plastic kit for considerably less than an operational model. I don't know how the detail compares to others.
ATLANTIC CENTRALIn my mind equally as impressive as hitting 126 mph for just a few minutes.
Certainly is - especially when said record was not acknowledged by the loco´s designer himself and achieved on a slight downhill grade!
Nevertheless - the Big Boy is a big boy, though I am more for the light-footed NG steamers of Colorado!
As far as steam locomotives go, the Big Boy was destined to live in myth and legend forever. They could have nick-named it the "Wildebeast" ot "Bullfrog", and that would be all we talked about. Big Boy is a pretty stupid name when you consider what else could have been come up with if a little thought had been applied to it.
Its proportions and lines are perfect. The scenery it operated in was perfect. And, it was able to be photographed many thousands of times in operation.
No other machine that I know of was as magnificent. Even non-railroad-fans can see one and know they are looking at something special.
All that being said, I will never own one. It just is not to my taste.
You guys have busted one of my life-long myths
Up until today, I had always seen the Big Boy as the biggest, the heaviest and the most powerfull steam engine in the world. Now I had to learn, that it was "only" the heaviest, but was surpassed by others in the vitals of a steam engine. I knew it couldn´t be the fastest, that title is still held by Gresley´s LNER A4 Pacific "Mallard".
In any case, the Big Boy is certainly the best known steam engine in the world, even ahead of Stephenson´s "Rocket".
PRR8259 Most tractive effort? For a non-one-off, isn't that the Virginian AE Class 2-10-10-2 at 176,600 pounds simple and 147,200 pounds compound? John
Most tractive effort? For a non-one-off, isn't that the Virginian AE Class 2-10-10-2 at 176,600 pounds simple and 147,200 pounds compound?
John
Yes, assuming we use the simple expansion TE. I have never seen any definitive information on how long or at what speed the AE could maintain in simple mode. But no question, there were at least three or four locos with more TE than the BigBoy.
And to correct a typo on my part, the GN 2-8-8-2 is an R-2, with a rated TE of 162,475