gmpullman Overmod (Or how the bracketing between the aluminum and steel was made to handle risk of dissimilar-metal corrosion...)
Overmod (Or how the bracketing between the aluminum and steel was made to handle risk of dissimilar-metal corrosion...)
Well, I believe the article did say it was experimental.
Ed
What I note is that the tank is aluminum (with riveted seams, triple-riveted as in boiler practice) but the casing is mild steel. That suggests not only shrouding to control fumes but some protection against knocks or damage to the relatively soft tank. I wonder how they calked the internal seams in the tank. (Or how the bracketing between the aluminum and steel was made to handle risk of dissimilar-metal corrosion...)
The more I think about this, the more I could swear I remember a story about these being a disaster of some sort in practice... the idea being that the concentrated acid would quickly passivate the interior and exposed structure, but vibration and elevated temperature in service causing failure and SCC. There were additional studies done when RFNA began to be attractive in rocket propulsion (leading to use of HF of all things as an inhibitor).
OvermodI don't see any such arrangements on the car in question, which leads me to wonder if we shouldn't check to be sure of the service.
I get the feeling the car is in nitric acid service.
Monsanto_acid_edited-1 by Edmund, on Flickr
Monsanto_ACF_dome by Edmund, on Flickr
I thought it would be neat to pose a question with a companion photo, then follow up with a description but I missed the mark, it would seem.
Sorry, Ed
Overmod I'm assuming he means resistive and regenerative; both involving connection of the motors to act as 'generators' -- the former dissipating it as heat, the latter (for electrics) conditioning it properly and 'putting it back into the line' for reducing outside generation requirement or charging wayside storage.
I'm assuming he means resistive and regenerative; both involving connection of the motors to act as 'generators' -- the former dissipating it as heat, the latter (for electrics) conditioning it properly and 'putting it back into the line' for reducing outside generation requirement or charging wayside storage.
That is correct.
mvlandswWhat is the purpose of the shroud?
Wasn't it established this car was in nitric acid service?
At one time concentrated HNO3 was supposed to be kept at low temperature to limit dissociation in transport. Modern regulations call for the tank integrity to be tested by overpressure (of about 15psi) and detection of leaks with ammonia-water spray (forms white ammonium nitrate fog)
Modern practice also calls for no connections in the tank below liquid level - it is unloaded by pressurizing the tank and taking the acid through a riser pipe, like spray cleaner to the nozzle.
I don't see any such arrangements on the car in question, which leads me to wonder if we shouldn't check to be sure of the service.
Hi,
Go to the top of this page. I posted a description of the car and the purported design of the shroud. Many of the acid fumes I've been around seemed to be heavier than air and hung low to the ground so I question the effectiveness of those little vent holes in the dome covering.
Cheers, Ed
Good evening
Well it seems to be Friday's Eve. I feel I should be a good host and step in to Thank everyone for their participation in this thread.
I think it was fun because even though everyone could research answers to questions being asked it was still a learning experience.
I don't know about everyone else but I have learned things here that I normally wouldn't have researched. I did because they were brought up here to everyone's attention creating curiosity to find the answer.
So again Thank You for everyone's participation that made it fun
TF
gmpullman Track fiddler The thread may be at a standstill because no one has a good question. Maybe you do? I'll try my luck and toss this one out there: Monsanto_ACF_enl1 by Edmund, on Flickr What is special about this car and what commodity was specifically hauled in it?
Track fiddler The thread may be at a standstill because no one has a good question. Maybe you do?
I'll try my luck and toss this one out there:
Monsanto_ACF_enl1 by Edmund, on Flickr
What is special about this car and what commodity was specifically hauled in it?
What is the purpose of the shroud?
Track fiddlerI thaught I addressed the answer to that question first but seemed to be passed by like a wet rag.
I'm assuming he means resistive and regenerative; both involving connection of the motors to act as 'generators' -- the former dissipating it as heat, the latter (for electrics) conditioning it properly and 'putting it back into the line' for reducing outside generation requirement or charging wayside storage. If not, ignore following question.
What is a water brake and how does it work (there are actually a couple of answers)?
Composed on a phone, so repeated without warning and taking minutes to erase. At least there are no long picture URLs so I can actually get to the edit button to fix things.
It takes a longer time to compose a post on a smartphone compared to a computer.
A scenario of two posts crossing in the mail.
That's Ok, I'm sure I'm not a sole proprietor of a good sense of humor and I'm glad I have one these days
Spurs is correct Wolf
Track fiddler Wolf359 What year was the Vauclain compound introduced? 1889 by Samuel M. Vauclain
Wolf359 What year was the Vauclain compound introduced?
What year was the Vauclain compound introduced?
1889 by Samuel M. Vauclain
Huh.
I thaught I addressed the answer to that question first but seemed to be passed by like a wet rag.
Since they don't have the flippy symbol here I'll just have to let that one go then
I'm sure I could clean the kitchen with it later though
Track fiddler And a riddle for you. What railroad term that has to do with track is also attached to an old west cowboy boot? TF
And a riddle for you.
What railroad term that has to do with track is also attached to an old west cowboy boot?
That would be spurs, I believe.
What are the two types of dynamic braking?
Overmod Wolf359 I believe the first "real" tender locomotive 4-6-4 was built in 1911, in France. That would be correct... you might want to add more detail, as (in my opinion at least) these were some of the best locomotives designed in Europe up to that time.
Wolf359 I believe the first "real" tender locomotive 4-6-4 was built in 1911, in France.
That would be correct... you might want to add more detail, as (in my opinion at least) these were some of the best locomotives designed in Europe up to that time.
Can do! The locomotives in question would be the French Nord 3.1101 and 3. 1102, which were built as four cylinder compounds, and surprisingly still exist. Here's a link for some more info on them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_3.1101_and_3.1102
Overmod The first US 4-6-4 was built in 1927 for the New York Central. But that was far from the first US 4-6-4 designed and scheduled to be built, on a railroad not without experience with the type. Who has the date and details?
The first US 4-6-4 was built in 1927 for the New York Central.
But that was far from the first US 4-6-4 designed and scheduled to be built, on a railroad not without experience with the type. Who has the date and details?
The Milwaukee Road had plans for some earlier 4-6-4s, but I don't know the exact timeline. I do know, however, that financial issues were the cause of the delay.
Overmod What year was the Vauclain compound introduced? Which one? Original or balanced? The original, ingenious one was patented in 1889, and is probably most notable for use within 5 years on what were probably the fastest locomotives in the world at that time (in Atlantic City service)
Which one? Original or balanced?
The original, ingenious one was patented in 1889, and is probably most notable for use within 5 years on what were probably the fastest locomotives in the world at that time (in Atlantic City service)
The original. 1889 is correct.
Wolf359I believe the first "real" tender locomotive 4-6-4 was built in 1911, in France.
The balanced-compound approach is, I think, from 1901 or 1902 -- ISTR it had all four cylinders in line abreast, with the common transfer valve passages between adjacent pairs a bit like the 1889 design turned on its side and flattened out -- someone not on a phone can check it.
All this stuff is in the Gairns book from 1907 (the Vauclain tandem compound too) which is downloadable from Google Books. Anyone even a bit interested in the subject will find it fascinating reading!)
Overmod Wolf359 The BNSF is made up of seven railroads. First you have the ATSF, then you have Burlington Northern, which was created through the consolidation of the CB&Q, the Great Northern, the Northern Pacific, the Spokane, Portland and Seattle Railway, and the later absorption of the Frisco. This is like a Monty Python Spanish Inquisition skit in reverse. "Our six railroads are..." "NO! Our seven railroads are..." <names six and stops> ... "AMONG our railroads are..."
Wolf359 The BNSF is made up of seven railroads. First you have the ATSF, then you have Burlington Northern, which was created through the consolidation of the CB&Q, the Great Northern, the Northern Pacific, the Spokane, Portland and Seattle Railway, and the later absorption of the Frisco.
This is like a Monty Python Spanish Inquisition skit in reverse.
"Our six railroads are..."
"NO! Our seven railroads are..." <names six and stops> ... "AMONG our railroads are..."
I guess it's safe to assume that both answers are correct? Depending on how you look at it.
Overmod Who designed the first real 4-6-4 (non-tank with the trailing wheels allowing a bigger firebox)? Who built the first one to run?
Who designed the first real 4-6-4 (non-tank with the trailing wheels allowing a bigger firebox)? Who built the first one to run?
I believe the first "real" tender locomotive 4-6-4 was built in 1911, in France. The first US 4-6-4 was built in 1927 for the New York Central.
Wolf359The BNSF is made up of seven railroads. First you have the ATSF, then you have Burlington Northern, which was created through the consolidation of the CB&Q, the Great Northern, the Northern Pacific, the Spokane, Portland and Seattle Railway, and the later absorption of the Frisco.
There was a tank 2-4-2 in the Civil War years, but that doesn't really count. The first real ones are in New Zealand, starting in 1877; the Kiwis seem to be almost perpetually digging these things out of rivers where they were dumped as fill and restoring them to operation.
And I think you mean one of Elijah McCoy's lubricators (he had as many patents as Heinz had kinds of pickles).
Track fiddler If taken into account the first merger that made up Burlington Northern, how many railroads make up today's BNSF and who are they? TF
If taken into account the first merger that made up Burlington Northern, how many railroads make up today's BNSF and who are they?
The BNSF is made up of seven railroads. First you have the ATSF, then you have Burlington Northern, which was created through the consolidation of the CB&Q, the Great Northern, the Northern Pacific, the Spokane, Portland and Seattle Railway, and the later absorption of the Frisco.
When was the first known 2-4-2 built?
Track fiddlerIf taken into account the first merger that made up Burlington Northern, how many railroads make up today's BNSF and who are they?
https://www.bnsf.com/about-bnsf/our-railroad/pdf/History_and_Legacy.pdf
What was the invention that supposedly inspired the phrase "The Real McCoy" and who was the inventor?
Mike
Water Level RouteTaking high pressure liquid ammonia and controlling its transformation into an ambient pressure gas, which essentially drives the cylinders like steam?
The problem with ammonia as a working fluid, though, is somewhat akin to the problem with using mercury as a working fluid, or some of the early high-power battery chemistries for locomotives as Page did in what I recall was the early 1850s.
If you look up the all-too-brief history of the Lamm cycle you will get a handle on some of how you get around the problem; I suspect another part of this is the extraordinary affinity of water vapor to condense in ammoniated solution -- meaning vastly reduced effective back pressure on a piston motor.
April 28th 1869 a record of 10 miles of track where laid in a single day by the Central Pacific crew.
So, maybe I won't get an answer from Overmod. To keep this thread moving, I'll just ask another question:
What is the record for length of railroad track laid by hand in a day, who did it, and when?
Overmod Water Level Route Ammonia? More detail. There are several ways this was tried...
Water Level Route Ammonia?
More detail. There are several ways this was tried...
Taking high pressure liquid ammonia and controlling its transformation into an ambient pressure gas, which essentially drives the cylinders like steam?
Water Level RouteAmmonia?
Ed,
Re the Monsanto acid tank car. I first heard of Monsanto in about 1960 when I saw their exhibit at Disneyland and just assumed it was a modern company. Turns out it was founded in St. Louis in 1901 and one of its earliest products was indeed sulfuric acid. Then in 1935, Monsanto bought Swann Chemical of Alabama and took over the production of PCBs. It looks like Monsanto cars will definitely fit in with my 50s era plan.
Tim
Late to the model railroad party but playing catch-up.....
gmpullmanI'll try my luck and toss this one out there: What is special about this car and what commodity was specifically hauled in it?
Monsanto_ACF by Edmund, on Flickr
What I thought was unique about this acid tank car was its use of a "fume hood" open on the bottom and the vent holes at the dome that was intended to carry away acid fumes.
C'est la vie — Ed
Overmod Far more interesting was the second practicable type of fireless locomotive, developed less than a decade later (we won't count Perkins yet, as he psyched himself out for no real reason in 1864). This used an approach for producing engine horsepower perhaps tried as far as the 1820s (with a more typical boiler) in the road vehicles Britain taxed and regulated out of existence early. What was the rather ingenious method used?
Far more interesting was the second practicable type of fireless locomotive, developed less than a decade later (we won't count Perkins yet, as he psyched himself out for no real reason in 1864). This used an approach for producing engine horsepower perhaps tried as far as the 1820s (with a more typical boiler) in the road vehicles Britain taxed and regulated out of existence early.
What was the rather ingenious method used?