MTH is just cloning what they do in O gauge down to HO as the technoligy allows them. The smoking whistle and other gimick crap have been going on for some time now in O gauge, so it was only a matter of time till smoke units became small enough with the volume and fan drive to do more than just go up the stack. I am another one who's asthma does not like smoke units. I can do ok with my G scale live steamers, but that is different and not just oil fumes up the stack. So my O scale in the past and now American OO do not have smoke units. Only filling the room with the wonderful smell of ozone and hot oil. Makes you wonder what the next step is in HO for a gimick to sell models? Figuring out how to safely color the smoke? Leave it to MTH to lead the with the "play" factor Atleast on these models, just as on the O gauge, there is an OFF switch or digitaly controled OFF switch for the smoke unit. So the nice models can still be run where they would be banned, such as a club or other venue.
Mikie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
OvermodI sorta remember a design in which reservoir pressure charged a chamber of 'proportioned' size such that air at reasonable pressure would clear a filled trap, after which an interlocked valve would close.
I quite agree and recall such a system. Presently, I can only find a reference to this New York Air Brake system which seems to rely on pilot air from the compressor governor:
Main-res-drain-layout by Edmund, on Flickr
Here is a close-up of the sump at the radiator but there is no apparent "interlock" between it and the drain valve.
Main-res-drain by Edmund, on Flickr
If I find anything further, I'll post it.
Regards, Ed
gmpullmanMost of my roster of diesels is first- and second generation locomotives. My recollection of these is more of a pressure-relief sound that tapers off, as if you were relieving the pressure on a line.
Ed, weren't these designed to be 'failure-proof' so that if something stuck it wouldn't bleed away all the air?
I sorta remember a design in which reservoir pressure charged a chamber of 'proportioned' size such that air at reasonable pressure would clear a filled trap, after which an interlocked valve would close. In operation some sort of dashpotted float would indicate the trap was filled, at which point only the chamber air would be admitted to blow the water out of the trap (with the pressure-dying-away sound effect mentioned). Only when the float dropped would the chamber be cycled full again to 'arm' the system for the next discharge event. I'll bet you have detailed descriptions of early 'self-clearing' air-system condensate-trap operation in that library of yours!
There seems to have been a change sometime in the early '90s to a type of valve that has a rather continuous pop - pop - pop sound.
http://www.grahamwhite.com/products/drain-valves/580-series-automatic-drain-valves
Most of my roster of diesels is first- and second generation locomotives. My recollection of these is more of a pressure-relief sound that tapers off, as if you were relieving the pressure on a line.
I still have to experiment with the "spitter valve" settings on sound decoders. Sometimes I can not find the "old-style" ones I'm familiar with.
I believe the gist of the ESU system is that the two types are in two different sound slots and you simply mute, through volume CVs, the one you do not want active.
Aren't those valves largely or wholly mechanical, and intended to be operating any time a consist has good brake-reservoir pressure with 'ambient' condensation, not just when a unit is actively pumping?
gmpullman Doughless Silent when running except for a recurring spit that apparently escaped the mute setting. I seem to recall there's also a CV setting to have the "spitter valves" quiet when the prime mover is deactivated. Buried in the manual somewhere, IIRC. Generally, I set the volume pretty low on the spitter valves anyway. Ed
Doughless Silent when running except for a recurring spit that apparently escaped the mute setting.
I seem to recall there's also a CV setting to have the "spitter valves" quiet when the prime mover is deactivated. Buried in the manual somewhere, IIRC.
Generally, I set the volume pretty low on the spitter valves anyway.
Ed
Yeah, its probably one of those minor technical design oversights where that one sound escapes the F8 mute command. I've never bothered to hunt down the actual individual volume CV.
- Douglas
DoughlessSilent when running except for a recurring spit that apparently escaped the mute setting.
gmpullman ATLANTIC CENTRAL Still waiting for the CV that does that.... When you silence the prime mover with F8, at least on Loksound decoders you still have whistle and bell and air sounds. Regards, Ed
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Still waiting for the CV that does that....
When you silence the prime mover with F8, at least on Loksound decoders you still have whistle and bell and air sounds.
Yes that is the case with LokSound, and I'm glad they did that. However, every one that I have set on F8 mute continues to generate some sort of a spitting sound, like a valve release every 4 seconds. Silent when running except for a recurring spit that apparently escaped the mute setting. Unless there is another CV setting for muting that individual sound, I'd rather cover it up with the prime mover sound.
Its ok, Loksound and T2 have evolved to where the PM sounds aren't bad. I really have no complaints except I generally still can't take turbo squeel.
Well that is a recent development because a few years back when I was running on a half dozen DCC layouts on a regular basis, F8 gave you total silence.
But that will still not get me to invest in 140 decoders and 10 wireless throttles........
Sheldon
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless Since there has been a diversion into talking about sound, I'll add my thoughts. I don't model steam, rather modern diesels, so my comments come from that angle. I've come to consider the sound of the horn and bell to be essential items of detail when conducting operations. Kind of like how some might consider box car ends or smoke box contour to be essential items of detail on any accurate model. Plus, I simply enjoy them. Add ditch lights that alternate flashing when the horn is activated and it becomes that much more realistic and enjoyable for me. Prime mover sounds can be a bit annoying if not done well, and IMO, EMD PM sounds can just be too whiny after a while. LokSound and Tsunami2's representation of Alcos is outstanding however. An added detail worth leaving at a high volume level, but I mainly adjust individual sound volumes to have the horn and bell prominate while the PM sound should drone rather quietly in the background. Reving and notching is a nice touch. All of the other sounds such as coupler clank, brake squeel, engineer or conductor voices, etc seem gimmicky to me. The CVs on those sounds are set to 0 immediately upon first programming. More than a decade ago, a number of local modeler know all agreed that it would be good to just have bells, whistles, and horns without chuff or prime movers........ Still waiting for the CV that does that.... Sheldon Overall, the piling-on of useless features in the name of higher quality is an aspect of the digital age that is a pet peeve of mine. Do I really need a TV screen on my refrigerator door, or even on a telephone for that matter? Maybe its just me, but I can step away for a while without having to watch video. I think the stripped down versions of some sound decoders offer something like that. Bachmann Sound Value and Economi have those sounds plus the PM, but nothing else, for less cost, which is nice. They say that motor control has not been compromised, but I noticed less sensitivity with slow speed control, but that could be a lower quality motor they tend to come installed with the OEM versions. I'm waiting for less sound features in a highly detailed model.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless Since there has been a diversion into talking about sound, I'll add my thoughts. I don't model steam, rather modern diesels, so my comments come from that angle. I've come to consider the sound of the horn and bell to be essential items of detail when conducting operations. Kind of like how some might consider box car ends or smoke box contour to be essential items of detail on any accurate model. Plus, I simply enjoy them. Add ditch lights that alternate flashing when the horn is activated and it becomes that much more realistic and enjoyable for me. Prime mover sounds can be a bit annoying if not done well, and IMO, EMD PM sounds can just be too whiny after a while. LokSound and Tsunami2's representation of Alcos is outstanding however. An added detail worth leaving at a high volume level, but I mainly adjust individual sound volumes to have the horn and bell prominate while the PM sound should drone rather quietly in the background. Reving and notching is a nice touch. All of the other sounds such as coupler clank, brake squeel, engineer or conductor voices, etc seem gimmicky to me. The CVs on those sounds are set to 0 immediately upon first programming. More than a decade ago, a number of local modeler know all agreed that it would be good to just have bells, whistles, and horns without chuff or prime movers........ Still waiting for the CV that does that.... Sheldon
Doughless Since there has been a diversion into talking about sound, I'll add my thoughts. I don't model steam, rather modern diesels, so my comments come from that angle. I've come to consider the sound of the horn and bell to be essential items of detail when conducting operations. Kind of like how some might consider box car ends or smoke box contour to be essential items of detail on any accurate model. Plus, I simply enjoy them. Add ditch lights that alternate flashing when the horn is activated and it becomes that much more realistic and enjoyable for me. Prime mover sounds can be a bit annoying if not done well, and IMO, EMD PM sounds can just be too whiny after a while. LokSound and Tsunami2's representation of Alcos is outstanding however. An added detail worth leaving at a high volume level, but I mainly adjust individual sound volumes to have the horn and bell prominate while the PM sound should drone rather quietly in the background. Reving and notching is a nice touch. All of the other sounds such as coupler clank, brake squeel, engineer or conductor voices, etc seem gimmicky to me. The CVs on those sounds are set to 0 immediately upon first programming.
Since there has been a diversion into talking about sound, I'll add my thoughts.
I don't model steam, rather modern diesels, so my comments come from that angle.
I've come to consider the sound of the horn and bell to be essential items of detail when conducting operations. Kind of like how some might consider box car ends or smoke box contour to be essential items of detail on any accurate model. Plus, I simply enjoy them.
Add ditch lights that alternate flashing when the horn is activated and it becomes that much more realistic and enjoyable for me.
Prime mover sounds can be a bit annoying if not done well, and IMO, EMD PM sounds can just be too whiny after a while. LokSound and Tsunami2's representation of Alcos is outstanding however. An added detail worth leaving at a high volume level, but I mainly adjust individual sound volumes to have the horn and bell prominate while the PM sound should drone rather quietly in the background. Reving and notching is a nice touch.
All of the other sounds such as coupler clank, brake squeel, engineer or conductor voices, etc seem gimmicky to me. The CVs on those sounds are set to 0 immediately upon first programming.
More than a decade ago, a number of local modeler know all agreed that it would be good to just have bells, whistles, and horns without chuff or prime movers........
Still waiting for the CV that does that....
Overall, the piling-on of useless features in the name of higher quality is an aspect of the digital age that is a pet peeve of mine. Do I really need a TV screen on my refrigerator door, or even on a telephone for that matter? Maybe its just me, but I can step away for a while without having to watch video.
I think the stripped down versions of some sound decoders offer something like that. Bachmann Sound Value and Economi have those sounds plus the PM, but nothing else, for less cost, which is nice. They say that motor control has not been compromised, but I noticed less sensitivity with slow speed control, but that could be a lower quality motor they tend to come installed with the OEM versions.
I'm waiting for less sound features in a highly detailed model.
On a similar note, I have long felt that Broadway Limited and MTH are very "crafty" and figuring out what details they can leave off without loosing the overall effect too much, while focusing more on sound, and trying to make the models more "handling friendly", that is less fragile.
Justy a few years back, you started to hear newer modelers, who are very RTR oriented, complain that the models were too fragile.
Compare a Broadway E8 to the original Proto2000 E8, the Proto is way more detailed, hands down. Just one example.
ATLANTIC CENTRALStill waiting for the CV that does that....
DAVID FORTNEY Grubba was an engineer at lionel , Mike wolf never worked for lionel. He started and owns MTH electric trains that he started in the late 80's MTH did do some contracted work for lionel in the late 80's and 90's. Williams, MTH and Lionel all started the scale 3 rail segment of O gauge in the early 90's and it has continued since. Dave
Grubba was an engineer at lionel , Mike wolf never worked for lionel. He started and owns MTH electric trains that he started in the late 80's
MTH did do some contracted work for lionel in the late 80's and 90's.
Williams, MTH and Lionel all started the scale 3 rail segment of O gauge
in the early 90's and it has continued since.
Dave
True, Mike Wolf never worked for LIONEL, but the point is they both come from the O gauge high rail world, which remains different from the HO scale world.
And to varying degrees, both have trouble fully understanding the HO market....
OR, as I have suggested for years,
they arrogantly assume they can "change" the HO hobby.
And, maybe they have expanded or created a new aspect to HO, but the expectation that all HO modelers will embrace those aspects is arrogant at best.....
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But then again, I only need to add about 6-8 locos to my 140 loco fleet and I will have all the locos I ever wanted or needed for my layout theme.
But then again, I only need to add about 6-8 locos to my 140 loco fleet and I will have all the locos I ever wanted or needed for my layout theme.
That's what I said, yet they keep coming!
I wish BLI still sold some "No sound" engines like PCM used to.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
Both Grubba and Wolf are former Lionel people. They can't shake their toy train backgrounds.
That really sums it all up. And nothing against that if you like it, but HO has historically had a bit of a different focus until more recently.
Now HO does have a much larger RTR, casual play value following than it ever had before.
And, many older "modeler" types like myself have embraced some degree of RTR with or without sound, smoke, etc.
I admit, I like buying some stuff ready to run and possibly just doing a little "kit bashing" to it, leaving me more time for other more involved modeling projects.
johngriffey18ca1This is a new feature for HO, I don't think it's been done before!
BLI was pushing it back in 2016:
BLI_catalog_2016 by Edmund, on Flickr
Depleting COAL load, too!
BLI_crop by Edmund, on Flickr
Plays "Hail To THe Chief" and "Star Spangled Banner", too
Good Luck, Ed
cold steal It's 2020. If it doesent have a smoke unit I wont buy it. While the effect is not perfect, it blows away an engine that spewes crystal clear fresh air out the SMOKE stack! And you can turn it off. Brilliant!
It's 2020. If it doesent have a smoke unit I wont buy it. While the effect is not perfect, it blows away an engine that spewes crystal clear fresh air out the SMOKE stack! And you can turn it off. Brilliant!
Ok, everybody likes something different. I'm a big supporter of choice. Everyone should enjoy these little toys as they see fit.
I find it interesting that you would limit your choices based on such a criteria.
As a person interested in creating realistic believable scenes and operations on my model layout, such a restriction would be unworkable for me.
But, I guess your interests run in a different direction.
Personally I'm not spending an extra $100 or more for the privilege of turning off the sound and the smoke.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well, call me as old fashioned as you like, but smoke, sound, "steamy" steam generator cars, station announcements (that one is really funny to me) are all gimmicks that for me lack realism in smaller scales. Sound, I know lots of you love sound. But as a HiFi enthusiast I find it lacking bass, harsh, tinny, too loud most of the time, like trying to listen to the sounds of a locomotive thru a 1963 9 transistor radio. Smoke/steam, like others have said, I will skip the cost, complexity, mess, the future repair problems and the environmental issues in my train room. For me a big issue with all this sort of thing is my lack of need or interest in DCC. Also, for me, it is also about viewing/listening perspective. At three feet away in HO you are 270 scale feet away. I have done some listening and viewing tests with the prototype. At that distance under average conditions, you would be surprised at what you don't hear, and don't notice visually. But, if you like that sort of thing, and you have the budget for it, have at it. Sheldon
Well, call me as old fashioned as you like, but smoke, sound, "steamy" steam generator cars, station announcements (that one is really funny to me) are all gimmicks that for me lack realism in smaller scales.
Sound, I know lots of you love sound. But as a HiFi enthusiast I find it lacking bass, harsh, tinny, too loud most of the time, like trying to listen to the sounds of a locomotive thru a 1963 9 transistor radio.
Smoke/steam, like others have said, I will skip the cost, complexity, mess, the future repair problems and the environmental issues in my train room.
For me a big issue with all this sort of thing is my lack of need or interest in DCC.
Also, for me, it is also about viewing/listening perspective.
At three feet away in HO you are 270 scale feet away. I have done some listening and viewing tests with the prototype. At that distance under average conditions, you would be surprised at what you don't hear, and don't notice visually.
But, if you like that sort of thing, and you have the budget for it, have at it.
Couldn't agree more.
Personally, I skip the smoke. I just don't think the problems - smell, residue, etc are worth it.
I occasionally run with sound. It's kind of fun when I'm just running one engine by itself. Otherwise I turn it off.
Paul
Trainman440 Funny how every forum about a new feature/gimmick ends up into a conversation about how everything past DC engines that go forward and back is not worthwhile.
Funny how every forum about a new feature/gimmick ends up into a conversation about how everything past DC engines that go forward and back is not worthwhile.
It all depends on your interests and goals in this hobby, that's all.
And there is nothing wrong with sound and smoke if that makes the hobby enjoyable for you.
But it is equally correct to not embrace every expensive new technology that comes around the corner.
We have seen that these expensive high feature locomotives can be "fragile", and I don't mean in terms handling. MTH and BLI have had their share of electronics problems, smoke units still have a high failure rate after a few years, then we add a little fan to blow the smoke?
Again, you are welcome to it if you enjoy it.
I prefer to spend my hobby dollars in other ways.
Randy,
I get the whole turn the volume way down from the factory setting, I have operated on lots of big DCC sound equipped layouts. But even turned down, the sound quality leaves me cold.
And once five or six of those things are going, even spread over a large layout, I am likely to be looking for door in 45 minutes tops.
It is very subjective, but even the HO locos that I have heard that sounded ok, don't justify the we work or the expense for me.
Volume is the second adjustment I make to ever sound decoder, after setting the address - for th every reason you state. They are factory set too loud. After all, just standing next to the layout, I am at least 270 feet away from the train, and it shouldn't sound like i am standing next to it. When it gets down to the other end of the room - it should be 'miles' away and barely heard. Turnded down, the quality of the sound goes way up, plus it sounds more realistic to hear it gradually get louder as the loco approaches you, and then fade out as it moves away. Blasting full volume fromt he other side of the room which is supposed to be 2 towns over, that's just not how it works - MAYBE in a completely flat open prairie area, but certainly not anywhere around here. I can occasionally hear the rumble of a train passing through, I'm about 5 blocks from the tracks, up hill. Sometimes I hear a horn, but the nearest crossing is at least a mile in a straight line, directly down from my house there is no reason for the horn to be sounded unless someone is on the tracks.
I DO have Lionel - my Dad's old set. But it is a 1948 edition Scout set - no whistling tender, no smoke. Lucky it even has a headlight. I was gifted a late pre-war set, but it needs a lot of TLC to make it all run again - that one does have a whistling tender and smoke, but it used the old style smoke which is no longer available. I'm no collector - I have no qualms about replacing broken wires with modern wire to make it run, when I get around to it.
I really like the looks of those KM1 locos - I wouldn't mind having one, have to set up a short test track somewhere to show it off, but I've paid less than that for some of the full size cars I've owned. They look and sound great. I could never get one and just put it on display, all those operating features beg for it to run.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
ATLANTIC CENTRALSound, I know lots of you love sound. But as a HiFi enthusiast I find it lacking bass, harsh, tinny, too loud most of the time, like trying to listen to the sounds of a locomotive thru a 1963 9 transistor radio.
Sheldon, I have a love/hate for sound. Loud sound hurts my hears so,that the hate part. All three of my DCC/Sound engines sounds pretty good on low sound and that tinny sould is almost gone.
One thing I hate and nothing can be done about other then using the mute button is my Bachmann Alco S4 has a very loud tubrocharger sound and my BLI SW7 horn has a terrible echo. My IM DCC/Sound GP10 sounds great. I usually run the S2 and SW7 sound for 30 minutes befor hitting F8.. The IM GP10 I enjoy the sound but around the 45 minute mark I engage the F8 button.
As a note of interest my new Slate Creek ISL will be using either my MRC Control Master II or CM20.. Nothing wrong with DCC/Sound I just have more DC locomotives like my Atlas NS HH GP38s, all of my CR and CSX locomotives. Then my United Models Santa Fe 1950 Class 2-8-0 help me make that decision.
I'm still thinking about back dating to 1954 and modeling a Santa Fe branch line. The switching layout would be a end of the branch type with a station with team track and four ot five industries.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
ATLANTIC CENTRALI actually like sound in larger scales, where the viewer is in a more intimate viewing perspective with the model, and where larger speakers allow considerably better sound.
Me too! Those KM1 steam engines have two HiFi speakers mounted, which give the sound the necessary oomph. The videos you´ll find in the internet don´t do the sound justice. But that´s 1/32 scale. Unfortunately you need to be filthy rich to afford that.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"