jacktheknife...Wish I knew how to post pictures on here...
To post photos here, you need to store them at a hosting site, such as photobucket, flickr or imgur.
Wayne
I ran Eheim HO Trolley Busses for years (about 8 years ago) I retired and had to give up the layout. If set up correctly, they run very well and add interest to a layout. I still have several Trolleys and accessories for when I can once again model. Wish I knew how to post pictures on here...
The diode may serve to round off the PWM output of your good power system, but it still should be better than a basic pack. I always wanted one of those old Aristo ones when I saw them in books, crude though they were. But, they didn't use those around here, and I think my 1956 dating puts me past most of the regular tracked trolley service in town, not that I really have room for it. Former co-worker friend of mine is the expert on the local trolley lines, I can ask him.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Well, I did some basic tests, and both buses run.
One is a little better than the other, both need lube and new light bulbs.
I tested them with a really basic DC power pack, so it will be intersting to see if a better throttle improves perfomance.
Remotoring does not look impossible, but if I can get suitable performance without that I will be happy.
More later.
Sheldon
Actually, the earliest ones like Ulrich posted were manual, later they offered an electric one, as well as a "automatic" one for one way return loop traffic.
I have found a web site belonging to a guy in Germany who has posted lots of great info on the Ehiem/Brawa trolley buses and documented a lot of the history.
http://geogus.dyndns.org/trolleys.jsp#!/doc?dId=110
After BRAWA took it over, they first changed and improved the overhead about 1964? The new overhead required different pickup shoes on the poles, so for a brief time the old style external steering was retained but with the new style shoe.
The new style shoe works with both overhead systems, the old shoe only works with the old overhead.
Then about 1967, they changed both the steering and the motor in the bus.
The old Ehiem bus used a Marklin A/C motor with a rectifier onboard. These are the ones you see all warped and distored. The motors ran hot, the rectifier ran hot, the plastic not so good.
The newer buses, like mine, with the internal steering mostly all have a newer DC motor, still diode protected to only run forward.
Here in the US the products were first marketed by AristoCraft, but shortly after BRAWA took over, US distribution changed to AHM. AristoCraft was getting out of HO in the mid 60's, AHM was coming on really big. All the AHM labeled product I have seen is the newer overhead and newer bus.
The one my father had years ago was the older version, likely purchased about 1960. It eventually failed, warped body, dead motor.
Ehiem did have an electric turnout in the old overhead product line, it was very clunky with the motor located above the "switch". The new style overhead used a turnout with the motor located on the ground, attached to the pole.
I am still working on my street plan/trolley plan, but I don't think I see turnouts in my trolleybus future, but never say never.
One controlling factor will be finding more overhead and overhead accessories. The other will be deciding exactly how "big" this mass transit system is going to be?
I plan to do some testing of the buses I have later today.
I debated this for many years, but the extra space of the new layout has made it a must do.
freeway3I recall seeing 'turnout' type overhead poles at one time for the Brawa / Eheim / AHM busses. They were operable, but I don't recall if it was a manual or electrical switching mechanism.
They were manually operated.
They are extremely rare these days and therefore quite expensive.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
ATLANTIC CENTRALI will keep an eye out for more overhead in particular. 230" inches may be enough, we will see?
Sheldon, just FYI as you look for more overhead, I recall seeing 'turnout' type overhead poles at one time for the Brawa / Eheim / AHM busses. They were operable, but I don't recall if it was a manual or electrical switching mechanism. Been a looooong time, and I didn't have these myself, just recall seeing them somewhere. Very fuzzy on the details, but I distictly remember seeing them. They were not homemade.
Ed
hon30critter ATLANTIC CENTRAL There are lots of the 50's/60's Aristo Craft branded sets out there in poor condition. I don't remember the brand was but they may well have been from AHM. I have seen half a dozen or so over the years and every one of the bodies was badly warped. Dave
ATLANTIC CENTRAL There are lots of the 50's/60's Aristo Craft branded sets out there in poor condition.
I don't remember the brand was but they may well have been from AHM. I have seen half a dozen or so over the years and every one of the bodies was badly warped.
Dave
Dave, except for the design change where the trolley poles exit the roof, as shown in the photos Ulrich posted earlier, the Aristo product and the AHM product are from the same tooling/manufacturer.
Ehiem sold it to Brawa pretty early on, and they made only small changes. Later on they improved the trolley poles, improved the overhead, and used better plastic as time progressed.
And yes the early versions would tend to warp if run for a long time.
This is very interesting. I hope you get them to operate in a way that makes you happy.
.
Keep us posted.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThere are lots of the 50's/60's Aristo Craft branded sets out there in poor condition.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critter Hi Sheldon, That bus looks great compared to any that I have seen! Nice find. Dave
Hi Sheldon,
That bus looks great compared to any that I have seen! Nice find.
Thanks Dave, both are like new. Some of the overhead is less than perfect, but that too is generally "lightly used".
These are likely late 70's or early 80's production, AHM branded, made by Brawa after they took it over from Eheim. And they have the improved finer scale overhead.
There are lots of the 50's/60's Aristo Craft branded sets out there in poor condition.
We will see how they run.
OK, so far I have scored two trolley bus starter sets. Here are a few photos of one of them:
Both are basically the same, the other bus is yellow. Both buses in very good condition. This set has the standard 100" of overhead, the other has some extra poles and wires, and a 90 degree crossing, with a total of about 130" of overhead.
So that is a good start.
I will be testing the buses, and will post more soon. I will keep an eye out for more overhead in particular. 230" inches may be enough, we will see?
tstage They still run trolley buses in Dayton, OH: I've been interested in/kicking around the idea of a layout based on the Shaker Heights (OH) trolley line. (It ran from Shaker Heights down to E.55th in Cleveland. Not sure if it made it as far as Cleveland Union Terminal. ) I have both of the Bowser Shaker Heights post-war PCC trolleys and they are very nice models. It would be a fun project and make a good, narrow, around-the-wall shelf layout for a given room. Tom
They still run trolley buses in Dayton, OH:
I've been interested in/kicking around the idea of a layout based on the Shaker Heights (OH) trolley line. (It ran from Shaker Heights down to E.55th in Cleveland. Not sure if it made it as far as Cleveland Union Terminal. ) I have both of the Bowser Shaker Heights post-war PCC trolleys and they are very nice models. It would be a fun project and make a good, narrow, around-the-wall shelf layout for a given room.
Tom
Tom, would you believe that CUT, aka Terminal Tower was created for the Shaker Rapid? Yep, all that started out as a way to get a rapid stop on Public Square.
The intercity passenger trains were an afterthought.
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
Bowser makes models of the Pacific Electric PCC streetcars.
I am not sure whether they are currently available.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe older ones have the rather clunky looking steering arm/trolley pole mount above the roof of the bus.
Just to visualize the difference - here is an old Eheim trolley bus model:
And here a newer Brawa model:
ATLANTIC CENTRALWell, I took a small leap into this project. I found a trolley bus set I liked the look of at a reasonable price on Ebay and made a deal.
Please keep us updated, Sheldon!
Well, I took a small leap into this project. I found a trolley bus set I liked the look of at a reasonable price on Ebay and made a deal.
Someone may have mentioned earlier, there are two versions of these trolley buses.
The older ones have the rather clunky looking steering arm/trolley pole mount above the roof of the bus.
Sometime later, in the 70's I believe, Brawa did invest in several small changes to improve the product. The large flat overhead wires where replaced with smaller round ones, the details of the poles were simplified and the steering was moved completely inside the bus. Changes where also made to the support masts for the overhead.
About the same time these changes were made, US distribution moved from Aristo Craft (who was leaving the HO market at that time) and moved across the Delaware to AHM in Philly.
The set I found is the newer style, and I will keep a look out for more of the newer style systems or extra accessories.
Hopefully this will allow me to evaluate the viability of this project.
Interestingly, the guy selling this set is only about 30 minutes from me, in a neighborhood I know well.
I vaguley remember the electric buses as a kid growing up in Brooklyn
Maybe 20 or so years ago I read an article in a bus modeler publication of a guy who built his own operating trolleybus system.Wish I still had the article
You seem to be knee-deep into that electronics stuff, which is way beyond me .
Back to modelling a trolley bus system. This thread really got me interested in trolley buses. I was amazed to see, how many system there are in the US! I just wonder why apparently no one has picked the issue up of building a working HO scale model of a modern trolley bus system.
Tinplate ToddlerI see the Gamesontrack system as a internal GPS-based layout automation system which still requires either track (for trains) or the "wire" (for cars).
The question to me is whether a system that can control fore-and-aft movement with fairly high precision could also be used to do steering, or trigger subroutines for momentum acceleration and braking, etc. The Gamesontrack system supposedly has 1mm precision over the whole space, which means to me that both longitudinal and lateral deviation can be pretty closely detected and sequential position used (as in laser radar) to generate speed and direction.
In the pictured system at the Toy Fair, I only see the Faller vehicles using (presumably) their wire to steer or do route following; it's the starting and stopping (which the original Faller Car System did not do, as I recall; you turned it on and it ran at a constant speed following the wire) that's under close and at least semiautomatic (from what I could make out from the description) control.
I keep coming back to wondering whether a DCC datastream could be modulated onto that magnetically-susceptible steering wire, and picked up by coils at the detector in a vehicle. Then keep the datastream used by the GPS location system, and the RF band used by those mini-RC trucks. That should offer enough bandwidth to do some highly complex control things with the vehicles, including arranging their steering to roughly follow the wire but also deviate from it slightly or periodically so it doesn't appear you have a toy truck going around and around.
I was also interested to see that Faller and the Magnorail system can coexist fairly happily. (I confess to still being awed at that pedaling HO bicyclist) I'm beginning to think there may be ways to animate many of the people and vehicles on layouts and not just the trains...
OvermodBut isn't this precisely what the 'digital Faller' DCC system as controlled by the gamesontrack "GPS satellite" microdifferential system does?
I don´t know. I see the Gamesontrack system as a internal GPS-based layout automation system which still requires either track (for trains) or the "wire" (for cars). I may be wrong, though.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWell, the Eheim/Brawa bus has the right look for the era
I have seen several of the Brawa sets available over the years. Every one of the bus bodies in all the sets were seriously distorted. Buyer beware.
Tinplate ToddlerAnother approach to modelling a working trolley bus would be the use of RC to control the bus, while the power is supplied through the overhead wires.
But isn't this precisely what the 'digital Faller' DCC system as controlled by the gamesontrack "GPS satellite" microdifferential system does?
In my opinion it wouldn't be *that* difficult to develop the equivalent of the sort of GPS mapped haptic space that the Carnegie-Mellon autonomous vehicle project (among others) worked out, and then use the millimetric precision of the the gamesontrack system to predictively control all the motions of the vehicle via proportional command (for which 128step coding ought to be quite adequate even in full servo). On top of this you could have simple subroutines for effective momentum that would make both steering and acceleration/braking as realistic as wanted.
The first time I saw trolleybuses was when looking at colleges in 1974, on the line out of the tunnel at Harvard Square. This was back in the days of the old dark-green buses that looked as if they were built in the early '30s, with identifiable light bulbs for headlights, and just during the time I was watching there were two dewirements ... both involving wide, sweeping missed turns that skidded the bus far wide of the 'proper' line. In both cases the vehicle didn't dewire its poles until they were at a considerable angle to the line of the wire. I think there was easily 4' of play on either side of the bus, which is enormous for lanekeeping, and that was on a comparatively sharp curve where the two poles are encountering different engaging offset.
On a model you don't have much ability to use vertical springing to keep the pole 'wired' firmly, but you can make the groove in the 'shoe' at the end of the pole shaped so it's wider at entry and exit and 'close' laterally in the middle. This would tend to self-steer the pole to follow the wire for a wide range of divergence. You'd need a relatively free pivot with very gentle but effective return spring centering, but that should be relatively easy to provide...
OvermodDoesn't the diorama have live overhead?
Yes, it does and from the looks of it, Daniel used Brawa masts and strung his own wires instead of using the Brawa curved wires.
Anotrher approach to modelling a working trolley bus would be the use of RC to control the bus, while the power is supplied through the overhead wires. Modelling HO scale RC controlled vehicles has become quite a craze recently and there are tons of videos on Youtube showing these miniature marvels. I have seen VW micro buses, trucks, bucket loaders, Caterpillars - but not yet a trolley bus. The stuff runs on 3V DC and I am surprised how smooth the movement is.
It would be quite challenging to drive a trolley bus without it getting de-wired!
Tinplate ToddlerI think the real challenge lies in making a working trolley bus system with "live" overhead.
I think you are right. Can you explain to me how the 'digital' Faller system integrates with the gamesontrack "satellite" system, and what the DCC code transmission rate that is practically achievable through the radio is?
I'm also not quite certain whether it's possible to do DCC modulation on the susceptible wire used in the Faller system. Some combination of the two combined with a little onboard routine storage should give realistic stop, start, acceleration, braking and steering action to vehicles running under the Faller system, and of course raising and lowering conductors in a recharging system becomes relatively simple in a variety of ways.
Doesn't the diorama have live overhead? Looks to me as if all the parts are made of conductive material. The 'trick' we could do here appears to be comparatively simple: instead of making a live overhead system that has to conduct motor current without jitter or interruption, make it a continuous charging current for onboard battery power as is used in the Faller system vehicles -- wouldn't have to be a really big onboard battery, but one that can handle intermittent dropouts and impulse noise. That in turn would allow for 'soft' make and break in intermittent contact, cutting down on spark erosion of the wire and shoes over time.
Then you could miniaturize the size of the U-shaped shoes on the poles, and probably the diameter of the overhead wire, and this would simplify at least some fabrication of the overhead wire elements. I am not sure if they can be gotten down to the size they would 'bear' like a trolley-pole wheel on overhead wire without vertical standoffs to give some of the effect of those Brawa 'strips'; it helps greatly that the wire following can be essentially passive rather than implementing the vehicle steering.
I wonder if there is a set of tools and equipment that could simplify continuous bending of overhead wire in both 'planes' to get it not only into the right curves and pulloffs but show the correct amount of 'gravity sag' vs. 'tension' even for very fine gauge stiff wire. Some of the components could be made of etched brass instead of round wire and not be too visible at scale (or if painted or chemically colored)
What we'd then need is a tool to simplify layout, bending, and fabrication of the overhead-wire segments, using the path of the Faller wire as a guide. I can think of several ways to mark a template this way, including just laying down paper, putting the equivalent of a pencil holder in the right location on the vehicle, and making passes. You then bend to match the desired curves, and position adjustable supports to locate the assemblies of wire in correct orientation.
You've got me thinking now about similar approaches to use with a Magnorail system...
OvermodMy point being more that any 'new' model bus system might replicate things like point-recharge actually being built or considered, not just necessarily wired systems.
You could easily use the Faller Car System for that - even without any major modification, if you skip raising or lowering the connectors.
I think the real challenge lies in making a working trolley bus system with "live" overhead.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL1954 was likely the high water mark for trolley buses in Baltimore, and possibly in the whole of the US.
Pity you don't model Memphis, which in 1954 probably still had the most extensive trolleybus system in America. You can still see the legacy of the overhead provision on many of the streets that had it.
I don't think there is much commonalty between trolleybus overhead wiring systems, just as there's relatively little in catenary systems for heavy rail. What you'd likely have is the wiring made modular, as in the 'diorama' Ulrich provided, and then a range of molded/stamped supports, like poles or lattice supports or precast concrete, for different eras or as a starting point for more 'accurate' modeling.
An interesting question is whether something like DCC ought to be provided for a 'new' model trolleybus system, which might simplify some of the power supply arrangements for the wiring but would have the same kind of issues with DC versions that model trains have. In my opinion, there would assuredly be more market for these models if they can be programmed to follow complex routes with stops, door action, etc. than if they just go around and around faster or slower as you turn a knob.
One chassis, made with adjustable length and provision for single vs. dual rear, and appropriate scale wheel and tire designs for different prototypes. All the electrics common to every bus, hardpoints for all the features provided on the chassis like those original Matsushita portable-VCR motherboards.
Then at least organized Shapeways file support or the equivalent for the range of specific trolleybuses people might want to model. I agree that only a limited number of original prototypes 'need' to be made and factory-painted for sale as 'sets', and in particular a 'fishbowl' like Dayton's would be a sensible option... just not for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL. In model aircraft, there is quite a market for superdetail kits and replacement parts to adapt a core model to a different configuration or even a different prototype. That could be applied to shells for these buses.
I still do think that modeling contemporary and future transit is likely to be an important market in models, just as impending dieselization was a couple of generations ago. If it can be made interestingly prototypical, or fascinating, to watch, it is likelier to find adoption by more than just the hard core of model railroaders or kids wanting a fun toy.