And I'll bet the laundry and HVAC systems are well out of your way.
Graham Line And I'll bet the laundry and HVAC systems are well out of your way.
The laundry is upstairs in the living space, the A/C and its ductwork are in the attic (were it belongs), and the heat which is hot water baseboard, only requires a 4'x4' foot print in the basement for the boiler and the gas domestic water heater as well.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I like long trains, they are a key part of realism for me, so the only visable yard will be about 20' long to support 35/40 car trains, or longer trains that will require "doubling" in and out of the yard. It is always interesting to get some sense of how others live. Our old house was about 4,000 sq of finished space, plus a 1300 sq ft basement not suitable for model trains (unfinished stone foundation basement, limited head room, some areas less than 6', 1901 house) and my layout space was a room above the detached garage/workshop, a building I designed and had built. Our retirement house is a 2600 sq ft rancher, but only 1600 sq ft has basement. The basement is very nice and will be a great layout space. Just the right size layout I suspect........I will still be building a additional detached garage, just not a great big "barn" like before. Sheldon
I like long trains, they are a key part of realism for me, so the only visable yard will be about 20' long to support 35/40 car trains, or longer trains that will require "doubling" in and out of the yard.
It is always interesting to get some sense of how others live. Our old house was about 4,000 sq of finished space, plus a 1300 sq ft basement not suitable for model trains (unfinished stone foundation basement, limited head room, some areas less than 6', 1901 house) and my layout space was a room above the detached garage/workshop, a building I designed and had built.
Our retirement house is a 2600 sq ft rancher, but only 1600 sq ft has basement. The basement is very nice and will be a great layout space. Just the right size layout I suspect........I will still be building a additional detached garage, just not a great big "barn" like before.
Sheldon. A question about the prototype in your era and location.
How often did real railroads have to "double" up a train in yards?
Just thinking out loud, I assume mid Atlantic/Appalachian roads had space limitations in the mountains or foothills. Probably searched for flat spots to build yards. Much like us modeler's, they didn't always have enough real estate to do what they wanted and had to do the best with what they had.
As far as how people live, I have a two story house with 2,700 sf and a 1400 sf basement with 1000 sf of living space (too much space really but we had limited choices due to a job relo). Choices for the layout are a 200 sf finished room above the garage that is actually a bedroom, so its accessed by trapsing throught the entire house. Or a 250 sf area in the unfinished portion of the basement that is actually a garage with an insulated door. Easier access but not as nice of a room, with some humidity concerns. Here in GA, because of the constant humidity, each finished level has its own HVAC, so a house like mine with finished areas on three levels would have three separante furnaces and AC units. They work very hard when the humidity is high.
- Douglas
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL I like long trains, they are a key part of realism for me, so the only visable yard will be about 20' long to support 35/40 car trains, or longer trains that will require "doubling" in and out of the yard. It is always interesting to get some sense of how others live. Our old house was about 4,000 sq of finished space, plus a 1300 sq ft basement not suitable for model trains (unfinished stone foundation basement, limited head room, some areas less than 6', 1901 house) and my layout space was a room above the detached garage/workshop, a building I designed and had built. Our retirement house is a 2600 sq ft rancher, but only 1600 sq ft has basement. The basement is very nice and will be a great layout space. Just the right size layout I suspect........I will still be building a additional detached garage, just not a great big "barn" like before. Sheldon Sheldon. A question about the prototype in your era and location. How often did real railroads have to "double" up a train in yards? Just thinking out loud, I assume mid Atlantic/Appalachian roads had space limitations in the mountains or foothills. Probably searched for flat spots to build yards. Much like us modeler's, they didn't always have enough real estate to do what they wanted and had to do the best with what they had. As far as how people live, I have a two story house with 2,700 sf and a 1400 sf basement with 1000 sf of living space (too much space really but we had limited choices due to a job relo). Choices for the layout are a 200 sf finished room above the garage that is actually a bedroom, so its accessed by trapsing throught the entire house. Or a 250 sf area in the unfinished portion of the basement that is actually a garage with an insulated door. Easier access but not as nice of a room, with some humidity concerns. Here in GA, because of the constant humidity, each finished level has its own HVAC, so a house like mine with finished areas on three levels would have three separante furnaces and AC units. They work very hard when the humidity is high.
They would have done their best to build the yard for the "average" train, but longer trains were often doubled in and out. I'm trying for the same effect.
The best houses here also have separate HVAC systems for each floor, and our summers are humid as well. My big 2-1/2 story Queen Anne has one A/C system for the top two floors, an one for the first floor.
Given a choice I would never choose forced air heat, no matter the fuel. Both the old house and the new house have hot water baseboard, and separate stand alone central air.
But a basement like my new (to me) house needs little or no heat or cooling. It is completely below grade, with no exposed "walkout" walls. The only basement entrance is in the attached garage. The basement stays 60-65 degrees all year with just a dehumidifier. The radiant heat from the boiler and heating pipes warm it a bit in the winter.
Amen! My model railroad would give a purist a heart attack if he saw my Long Island Cannonball running on the main with a Santa Fe Warbonnet passenger train or my Orient Express. My double main is for display running what-ever while the lower level is the branch lines with four towns where I do all the switching, which is what I really enjoy. When the daily turns leave the yard they have to navigate the busy main to reach the branch line. I like trains and buy and run what I like. Sometimes I feel like the local home builder who builds a house on every square inch of land he can find. If I find a small open space I try to find a small building that would fit into that space and look appropriate. Start building your layout and be prepared to compromise. It's never going to turn out exactly as you put on paper no matter how much time you take planning. A 14 year old once told my modular group at a train show that the train we we running was not "protoctpical" (It wasn't meant to be, it was entertainment for show visitors) and he only ran prototypicaly. I asked him if his trains were made of plastic. When he said yes I told him that was not very prototypical since real trains were made of steel. He walked away scratching his head. Build what you like, it's your railroad not the critics. I've been ernjoying my same 11 X 22 layout for over 25 years and I still do something with it every day. It's supposed to be fun. It even says so on MR's covers.
leewal Amen! My model railroad would give a purist a heart attack
Amen! My model railroad would give a purist a heart attack
I think you guys over-estimate the "prototype modelers".
Apart from a few individuals with below average social graces, most prototype modelers aren't too concerned with what everyone else is doing.
I and many of my best friends in the hobby fall into the prototype modeling camp. I also have local friends that just do "whatever" on their home layouts.
While I might have my own opinions about what impresses or inspires me, the point of a hobby is for the individual doing it to enjoy it their way.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
ATLANTIC CENTRALThey would have done their best to build the yard for the "average" train,....
.... at the time the yard was designed and built. Over time cars get longer, engines get more powerful, trains get longer. However right of way doesn't get larger (in most cases).
A yard built in 1900 for 36 ft cars, by 1930 average 40 ft cars won' t fit in the same tacks and by 1970, 50 ft cars definietyl won't fit. So having to double is a choice the modeler has to decide. If you don't have the space to build a larger yard, then say its an older yard and the railroad has to double in to make do.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusmanIf you don't have the space to build a larger yard, then say its an older yard and the railroad has to double in to make do.
A lot of thoe older yards was rebuilt over the years to accommodate longer cars this was done out of necessity and to improve transit time..
Not so long ago NS enlarged its Bellevue Moorman yard doubling the capacity in order to improve transit time.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
cv_acr leewal Amen! My model railroad would give a purist a heart attack I think you guys over-estimate the "prototype modelers". Apart from a few individuals with below average social graces, most prototype modelers aren't too concerned with what everyone else is doing.
Probably more than a few from the negative comments I've heard over the years, but it could be there are only a few and whatever they say provokes reaction and comments in large measure.
I've learned over the years it's best practice to keep ones opiniion to ones self when viewing trains and layouts - such as at train shows etc. I take a lot of what I see with a box car of salt since lots of people like to run anything with flanged wheels with little regard to "realism".
That said, at Timonium there is one layout where there are lots of pretty faithful trains ran, faith ful to certain era's and RR's and it's a pleasure to watch them. I can appreciate watching any train well modeled, even if it is from an era or region I generally have little interest in.
Basically.
And there are aspects to model railroading where you may be into prototype, such as the trains, but maybe less so with the layout itself. After all, it can be a major challenge to not only model historically accurate trains AND run them on a layout that is faithful to an area, even if selectively compressed, which is pretty much a given.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
cv_acrI think you guys over-estimate the "prototype modelers". Apart from a few individuals with below average social graces, most prototype modelers aren't too concerned with what everyone else is doing.
+1
I've been around the hobby quite a while and I'm acquainted with some of the most rigorous prototype modelers and operators anywhere – and I've never heard or seen them say a critical thing about any other modeler’s approach.
Like crocodiles in the sewers in NYC, the “mean old prototype nitpicker” is an urban legend. What does exist (in large numbers) are people who earnestly defend their more-relaxed approach … unnecessarily. It’s all good; model what you want, to whatever degree of rigor you choose – no one else really cares.
Didn't the original poster himself indicate later that he enjoys prototype research – so the whole thread seems like a bit of a tempest in a teapot. In other words, just another day in the forums …
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyamaLike crocodiles in the sewers in NYC, the “mean old prototype nitpicker” is an urban legend.
Considering there are a lot of grumpy old men out there, in general, and the hobby is full of old men, I'd lay odds that a few of them couldn't keep their mouth shut.
Call me a skeptic but doubt its an urban legend and not seeing it for yourself doesn't confirm it as fact. I fully believe they are out there. Why would someone lie about their experience, such as in clubs, that we have seen posted in forums, even here?
It well known as people age, their "social monitoring" ebbs away. Those who have taken care of elderly know this all too well.
Definition pet peeve.
If you are following a prototype, you are not "prototyping", you are modeling.
To "prototype" is to create an original, the first one.
Technically the person who is freelancing his layout is actually "prototyping" since he is building the first example of the railroad, the original, there is no other railroad being copied, it is the "prototype".
"Mean Old Prototype Nitpickers" is NOT an urban legend.
.
They are very real, and plentiful. Not to mention loud and obnoxious.
My guess is that they have all retired and moved to South Florida so none of you get to see them anymore. They are now a localized problem... in my locale!
-Kevin
Living the dream.
dehusmanDefinition pet peeve. If you are following a prototype, you are not "prototyping", you are modeling. To "prototype" is to create an original, the first one. Technically the person who is freelancing his layout is actually "prototyping" since he is building the first example of the railroad, the original, there is no other railroad being copied, it is the "prototype".
Aha! A fellow rivet-counter of the language! I agree with your observations, Dave, and one of the first things that sprang to mind for me was this mostly-scratchbuilt model representing a real boxcar...
...a model of a prototype.
However, its method of construction may also qualify it as a prototype: while model building with styrene is nothing new...
...sheathing it with metal tape can't be all that common...
...so it's a prototype in my own modelling experiences.
SeeYou190Mean Old Prototype Nitpickers" is NOT an urban legend. . They are very real, and plentiful. Not to mention loud and obnoxious...
I have an older friend who might qualify for that category, but his attitude is more inspired by the fact that he's continually upping his abilities. This leads him to see unacceptable stuff on others' layouts which he formerly accepted as "okay" on his own layout. To his credit, he expresses these views only to me, and not to the perceived "offenders".
I'm a bit of a rivet-counter, but only for my own stuff, and do appreciate fine work when I see it. However, when viewing anybody else's work, I prefer to look for the positives. I always held to the old adage that "If you don't have anything good to say, then keep it to yourself.", but that friend has taught me that a kind comment can do wonders, especially for a neophyte modeller. If you want to be a nitpicker, pick positive ones, and say something nice. It'll make both parties feel good.
Wayne
riogrande5761Why would someone lie about their experience, such as in clubs, that we have seen posted in forums, even here?
That's what makes it an urban legend. Everyone just "knows" that it occurs – even when it doesn't.
Well, by its nature, a forum is where people who might be chattier than most come to talk. Expression of likes and dislikes is going to be very common relative to what many modelers, even us, would do in the flesh.
cuyama riogrande5761 Why would someone lie about their experience, such as in clubs, that we have seen posted in forums, even here? That's what makes it an urban legend. Everyone just "knows" that it occurs – even when it doesn't.
riogrande5761 Why would someone lie about their experience, such as in clubs, that we have seen posted in forums, even here?
In my best valley girl immitation - "what ev- arr!"
For the record, I enjoy researching the prototype. My "research" now is confined to one railroad, in one area, in a limited time frame, so there aren't too many rabbit holes to go down or zebras to chase.
It keeps me in touch with old friends and takes me back to a different time and place. Some topics are kind of a challenge but I bear up the best I can. There are pleasant surprises, as well.
riogrande5761Call me a skeptic but doubt its an urban legend and not seeing it for yourself doesn't confirm it as fact. I fully believe they are out there.
Jim,Over the past or 50 years I've met all types of modelers some "rivit counters" could careless how others model; while other-well-let's say wasn't so nice.OTOH I've met modelers that was just plain stuckup and thought they was the best of the best while runnnning Athearn BB and Bachmann engines..
mrrdad Does/did all the research and planning get to you? ...Anyone care to any similar revelations you've come across like this that helped you progress on your layout.
Does/did all the research and planning get to you?
...Anyone care to any similar revelations you've come across like this that helped you progress on your layout.
A newbie's opinion here, but from the very beginning I've been going for an impressionistic layout and collection rather than perfection.
I knew from the start I didn't have the space or budget to try and get a picture perfect layout. So, I'm settling for somethign that get's the spirit right and looks good through the glasses of nosltalgia.
If you have space, time, ability and $ to make something near-exact then more power to you but if not, it's probably best to reset your expectations and goals now rather than halfway through construction.
Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad for Chicago Trainspotting and Budget Model Railroading.
I feel like following a prototype can suck the fun out of this hobby at times. As a current arm-chair modeler, I've definitely had my fair share of paralysis by analysis. I agree, you eventually have to just do it or you'll be stuck forever in that situation.
With that said, I also have fallen into the rivit counter trap. Not helping me by any means. Through researching and the constant raising the bar from the manufacturers, it's hard not to IMO. And when I do get around to building a layout, it will be a small shelf layout. I find it that in my case I want as accurate of a layout as possible. Only a handful of cars vs being concerned about filling out a long consist and the funds that come with it. Is it sad that I find more joy in researching than modeling?
BRAKIE riogrande5761 Call me a skeptic but doubt its an urban legend and not seeing it for yourself doesn't confirm it as fact. I fully believe they are out there. Jim,Over the past or 50 years I've met all types of modelers some "rivit counters" could careless how others model; while other-well-let's say wasn't so nice.OTOH I've met modelers that was just plain stuckup and thought they was the best of the best while runnnning Athearn BB and Bachmann engines..
riogrande5761 Call me a skeptic but doubt its an urban legend and not seeing it for yourself doesn't confirm it as fact. I fully believe they are out there.
I'm very happy with my fleet of Bachmann Spectrum steam locos, no matter what any of the "Brand Snobs" say........
We had one guy who wanted to join our round robin who thought he should be last word on prototype modeling...after a few months and a few uncomfortable evenings....we sent him a letter, letting him know he was no longer welcome.........
The nice things about a round robin, no bylaws, no dues, no legal problems, no tax returns..........and nobody who can't get along with others.
In 50 years in this hobby he has been the only person I ever met who thought he could tell others what was the right way or the wrong way to do this hobby.......
So there is at least one.
But the other side of this coin is this, I'm not obligated to be interested in what others are doing, so at an open house, or train show, or round robin meeting, or convention event, I'm not obligated to be chatty kathy with those who's approach is not in my "zone of interest".
I have toured a lot of layouts, by my standards, some great, some average, some not so great, but I have always been a polite and appreciative guest - that does not mean I always have a lot to say.......
Graham Line For the record, I enjoy researching the prototype. My "research" now is confined to one railroad, in one area, in a limited time frame, so there aren't too many rabbit holes to go down or zebras to chase. It keeps me in touch with old friends and takes me back to a different time and place. Some topics are kind of a challenge but I bear up the best I can. There are pleasant surprises, as well.
Same here, I'm really only concerned with the Mid Atlantic of the US in 1954. With each passing year I know less and less about current railroading and that fact does not bother me at all.
cuyama cv_acr I think you guys over-estimate the "prototype modelers". Apart from a few individuals with below average social graces, most prototype modelers aren't too concerned with what everyone else is doing. +1 I've been around the hobby quite a while and I'm acquainted with some of the most rigorous prototype modelers and operators anywhere – and I've never heard or seen them say a critical thing about any other modeler’s approach. Like crocodiles in the sewers in NYC, the “mean old prototype nitpicker” is an urban legend. What does exist (in large numbers) are people who earnestly defend their more-relaxed approach … unnecessarily. It’s all good; model what you want, to whatever degree of rigor you choose – no one else really cares. Didn't the original poster himself indicate later that he enjoys prototype research – so the whole thread seems like a bit of a tempest in a teapot. In other words, just another day in the forums … Byron
cv_acr
I am a fan of the stuff Byron Henderson writes, and if you have read his rants on 4'x8' layouts before you know he is not afraid to share his opinion. But his article raises a strong point, why worry about what the keyboard bashing prototype opinion warriors will say? At the end of the day a model railroad, any model railroad built and operating is a million times better than the one that is never built because the owner is afraid of online critics. Even Henderson admits his own views on 4'x8' layouts should be tossed out the window if a modeler dead set on building 'the sacred sheet' does it because they want to have fun and enter the hobby.
EilifA newbie's opinion here, but from the very beginning I've been going for an impressionistic layout and collection rather than perfection.
EilifI knew from the start I didn't have the space or budget to try and get a picture perfect layout. So, I'm settling for somethign that get's the spirit right and looks good through the glasses of nosltalgia.
That's my approach also.
In my case I'm trying to capture the essence/spirit of the Maryland and Pennsylvania RR of the early 50's before the end of passenger service the last day of August 1954. While a very few S scale kits and rtr undecorated are available, in most cases I'll use something else that fits the spirit.
Paul
In wargaming we have "button counters" as an analog to the Model Railroading legendary rivet counter.
The easiest way to avoid a rivet counter is to go into fantasy wargaming. You can't be a button counter in a zombie infested steam punk battlefield on Mars.
Too bad that there is so little fantasy model railroading. Other than Thomas and Lego, what is really an option?
SeeYou190Too bad that there is so little fantasy model railroading. Other than Thomas and Lego, what is really an option? -Kevin
Nothing is stopping you from doing fantasy model railroading. A "following" or a group of like minded people isn't needed. Blaze the trail.
SeeYou190 In wargaming we have "button counters" as an analog to the Model Railroading legendary rivet counter. . The easiest way to avoid a rivet counter is to go into fantasy wargaming. You can't be a button counter in a zombie infested steam punk battlefield on Mars. . Too bad that there is so little fantasy model railroading. Other than Thomas and Lego, what is really an option? . -Kevin .
Fantasy? Well fictional road protolancing is as close to fantasy as I am interested in.....
I guess that's why I'm not a war gamer........
Personally, Thomas is more interesting than Lego or war gaming.........
Different strokes.........
SeeYou190 Too bad that there is so little fantasy model railroading. Other than Thomas and Lego, what is really an option? . -Kevin .
Rich
Alton Junction
ATLANTIC CENTRALI guess that's why I'm not a war gamer........
You would be a magnificent wargamer, just probably not fantasy.
Based on your posts, I can honestly picture you commanding a section of a Napoleanic force in an historical scenario and having a great time.
You are always welcome to come to an HMGS/South convention in Orlando and give it try. Zero investment, and we are a very welcoming bunch. Pete would love to have you on the grid.
I'll be in the other room playing Zombies or something.