Less is more + Type A personality = It's gonna be big anyway ;0)
ROBERT PETRICK mrrdad This will not be a production piece from CMR. I'm not a facebook user, but my wife is. According to their facebook page, this has been a long project that comes with a close to $20,000 price tag. They have no desire to make it a kit. It does give me a ton of ideas though. Hey Ed- Ummm . . . yeah . . . well . . . there's always a catch, isn't there? Anyhow, I hope you don't give up. At least don't give up too soon. You can always give up later. Robert
mrrdad This will not be a production piece from CMR. I'm not a facebook user, but my wife is. According to their facebook page, this has been a long project that comes with a close to $20,000 price tag. They have no desire to make it a kit. It does give me a ton of ideas though.
This will not be a production piece from CMR. I'm not a facebook user, but my wife is. According to their facebook page, this has been a long project that comes with a close to $20,000 price tag. They have no desire to make it a kit. It does give me a ton of ideas though.
Hey Ed-
Ummm . . . yeah . . . well . . . there's always a catch, isn't there?
Anyhow, I hope you don't give up. At least don't give up too soon. You can always give up later.
Robert
I won't.
I'm working on a model of it in Solidworks right this moment as a matter of fact. I might go broke buying sheets of brick styrene before this is over!
The building is a dark brick with matching mortar lines. I'm thinking of just using smooth styrene. If you were standing back from the building and seeing it in the perspective we are as a model, you'd never see brick lines anyhow.
Oh well... that's for another topic, I guess.
Ed
Semi newbie HO scale modeler coming from the O scale world
LINK to SNSR Blog
ROBERT PETRICK mrrdad This is a photo from Custom Model Railroad. They are currently building a model on Grand Central for a customer. I will only be modeling the sides of the building you see in this photo. Hey Ed- I did not know CMR was building Grand Central, as a production model or as a limited production model or as a one-off for a private client. I have no idea what sort of contractual arrangements they have with their client for this project, and I have no idea how they decide to bring new models into mass- or limited production. But I do have some idea as to their capabilities. And since CMR has gotten this far, it appears that the process of researching the original plans and turning those plans into scale model plans and taking those scale model plans and fabricating and assembling the various pieces and parts into what we see here has taken place. And that is a very big accomplishment. They will have worked out the fit-and-finish issues and will have discovered if there are any difficult (or impossible) assembly constraints. They have a reasonable idea of the time and materials required to produce a single kit and might be able to make a scientific wild-ass guess as to MSRP. All in all, I'd say your chances of finding such a model available in kit form at some time in the not-too-distant future are fair. Or maybe not. Good luck. Robert
mrrdad This is a photo from Custom Model Railroad. They are currently building a model on Grand Central for a customer. I will only be modeling the sides of the building you see in this photo.
This is a photo from Custom Model Railroad. They are currently building a model on Grand Central for a customer. I will only be modeling the sides of the building you see in this photo.
I did not know CMR was building Grand Central, as a production model or as a limited production model or as a one-off for a private client.
I have no idea what sort of contractual arrangements they have with their client for this project, and I have no idea how they decide to bring new models into mass- or limited production. But I do have some idea as to their capabilities. And since CMR has gotten this far, it appears that the process of researching the original plans and turning those plans into scale model plans and taking those scale model plans and fabricating and assembling the various pieces and parts into what we see here has taken place. And that is a very big accomplishment. They will have worked out the fit-and-finish issues and will have discovered if there are any difficult (or impossible) assembly constraints. They have a reasonable idea of the time and materials required to produce a single kit and might be able to make a scientific wild-ass guess as to MSRP.
All in all, I'd say your chances of finding such a model available in kit form at some time in the not-too-distant future are fair. Or maybe not.
Good luck.
Hi Robert,
SeeYou190 In wargaming we have "button counters" as an analog to the Model Railroading legendary rivet counter. . The easiest way to avoid a rivet counter is to go into fantasy wargaming. You can't be a button counter in a zombie infested steam punk battlefield on Mars. . Too bad that there is so little fantasy model railroading. Other than Thomas and Lego, what is really an option? . -Kevin .
In wargaming we have "button counters" as an analog to the Model Railroading legendary rivet counter.
.
The easiest way to avoid a rivet counter is to go into fantasy wargaming. You can't be a button counter in a zombie infested steam punk battlefield on Mars.
Too bad that there is so little fantasy model railroading. Other than Thomas and Lego, what is really an option?
-Kevin
This guy is doing it:
https://smallurbanrails.wordpress.com/category/mines-of-xenon/
The word "fun," comes up a lot, too.
Gary
OK, now I need to look up discworld model railroads, because I just have to see what sort of nutty things people have come up with to try and match Pratchett's zaniness that is Discworld.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I guess learning about an "easy" railroad to model is one way of going about it, but when you live right next to the XYZ RR, your friends work for the company, and you deal with the XYZ in your business, "easy" isn't the main consideration.
And the farther you drill into the details, the less simple the whole industry becomes. You don't have become a historian to have fun, but some of the historians are really enjoying themselves.
You don't HAVE to do any of this. It's a hobby.
wjstix but it seems to me a lot people interested in prototype modelling spend a lot of time researching what railroad / period they want to model, and then, after deciding what they want to do, start to look at what if anything is available to model that railroad, place, and time. It may work better to look at what's available first, then determine what you want to do based somewhat on that. For example, if you really want to model steam railroading, you're going to have a much easier time modelling the Pennsylvania, New York Central, Norfolk & Western, or Union Pacific because so many accurate steam engine models have been made for those railroads.
That makes it sound like a job.
Part of the fun of this hobby (at least for me) is getting to go off on tangents about whatever interests you.
Paul
Brammy mrrdad My original post was originally intended as meaning "does trying to get every little detail correct" drive you crazy? I spent so much time looking at photos and gathering info on so much I don't even really need. I did enjoy the research, but I now realize how much time it has taken away from building. For what it's worth, I have never really found any harm in having too much data when doing research. It's a lot easier to have info and discard it, than realize you needed it.
mrrdad My original post was originally intended as meaning "does trying to get every little detail correct" drive you crazy? I spent so much time looking at photos and gathering info on so much I don't even really need. I did enjoy the research, but I now realize how much time it has taken away from building.
My original post was originally intended as meaning "does trying to get every little detail correct" drive you crazy? I spent so much time looking at photos and gathering info on so much I don't even really need. I did enjoy the research, but I now realize how much time it has taken away from building.
For what it's worth, I have never really found any harm in having too much data when doing research. It's a lot easier to have info and discard it, than realize you needed it.
I agree, but for me it was turning into nitpicking and unrealistic expectations. Too much thinking and not enough building.
Thanks.
I was just in the process of fixing that.
mrrdadThis is a photo from Custom Model Railroad.
Let me see if I can make the images you referenced visible
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
SeeYou190Too bad that there is so little fantasy model railroading. Other than Thomas and Lego, what is really an option?
There have been a number of Middle Earth model railroads over the years and some are currently active. Many of these use either off-the-shelf or modified British-outline rolling stock, sometimes narrow gauge. The internet search string "Middle Earth model railroad" yields some interesting results. A similar search on “Discworld model railroad” also brings up a few layouts.
I've designed a couple of layouts based on those books and also a layout based on Warner Brothers cartoons (Road Runner, Bugs Bunny, etc.). Unfortunately, none of these have been built as yet.
So it’s really only limited by imagination.
Byron
ROBERT PETRICK wjstix If I can do a quick comment re the original post - and I haven't read all the subsequent replies, so sorry if someone's already said this - but it seems to me a lot people interested in prototype modelling spend a lot of time researching what railroad / period they want to model, and then, after deciding what they want to do, start to look at what if anything is available to model that railroad, place, and time. It may work better to look at what's available first, then determine what you want to do based somewhat on that. For example, if you really want to model steam railroading, you're going to have a much easier time modelling the Pennsylvania, New York Central, Norfolk & Western, or Union Pacific because so many accurate steam engine models have been made for those railroads. Unless you have the money to buy primarily (or exclusively) brass engines, or are a talented scratchbuilder or kitbasher, modelling many other railroads accurately are going to be difficult, just based on locomotives. Then, beyond engines, what is available for cabooses, passenger cars, stations etc.? Same issue, some railroads are well represented, others hardly at all. The way I interpret the OP's original post is his desire not only to capture the prototype, but to capture it in minute detail; at least as minutely as possible. He's done quite a bit of research and has found plans and specs and historical photos . . . enough info to accomplish the task. And he has the tools and the talent to pull it off. The issue is the amount of time and effort it would take to see his vision materialize. He wants to build an uncompressed model of the Chicago Grand Central Station, circa 1950 or so. Great! I support that effort wholeheartedly. I have seen the historical plans and other info, and I estimate such a project would take me about 200 or so hours. Maybe more. Maybe a lot more. That's modeling hours; and since I have to waste a lot of time at my day job, that would work out to about six calendar months. A reasonable and thoroughly enjoyable way to spend those six months . . . but we're talking about a single building, and the OP wants a dozen or so such buildings and structures, plus street scenes and track work and all the other stuff that goes into a layout. He gets a lot of credit for his vision and ambition, and loses no points whatsoever for adapting his plans to the reality of the situation. Just my opinion, of course. Robert
wjstix If I can do a quick comment re the original post - and I haven't read all the subsequent replies, so sorry if someone's already said this - but it seems to me a lot people interested in prototype modelling spend a lot of time researching what railroad / period they want to model, and then, after deciding what they want to do, start to look at what if anything is available to model that railroad, place, and time. It may work better to look at what's available first, then determine what you want to do based somewhat on that. For example, if you really want to model steam railroading, you're going to have a much easier time modelling the Pennsylvania, New York Central, Norfolk & Western, or Union Pacific because so many accurate steam engine models have been made for those railroads. Unless you have the money to buy primarily (or exclusively) brass engines, or are a talented scratchbuilder or kitbasher, modelling many other railroads accurately are going to be difficult, just based on locomotives. Then, beyond engines, what is available for cabooses, passenger cars, stations etc.? Same issue, some railroads are well represented, others hardly at all.
If I can do a quick comment re the original post - and I haven't read all the subsequent replies, so sorry if someone's already said this - but it seems to me a lot people interested in prototype modelling spend a lot of time researching what railroad / period they want to model, and then, after deciding what they want to do, start to look at what if anything is available to model that railroad, place, and time. It may work better to look at what's available first, then determine what you want to do based somewhat on that.
For example, if you really want to model steam railroading, you're going to have a much easier time modelling the Pennsylvania, New York Central, Norfolk & Western, or Union Pacific because so many accurate steam engine models have been made for those railroads. Unless you have the money to buy primarily (or exclusively) brass engines, or are a talented scratchbuilder or kitbasher, modelling many other railroads accurately are going to be difficult, just based on locomotives.
Then, beyond engines, what is available for cabooses, passenger cars, stations etc.? Same issue, some railroads are well represented, others hardly at all.
The way I interpret the OP's original post is his desire not only to capture the prototype, but to capture it in minute detail; at least as minutely as possible.
He's done quite a bit of research and has found plans and specs and historical photos . . . enough info to accomplish the task. And he has the tools and the talent to pull it off. The issue is the amount of time and effort it would take to see his vision materialize.
He wants to build an uncompressed model of the Chicago Grand Central Station, circa 1950 or so. Great! I support that effort wholeheartedly. I have seen the historical plans and other info, and I estimate such a project would take me about 200 or so hours. Maybe more. Maybe a lot more. That's modeling hours; and since I have to waste a lot of time at my day job, that would work out to about six calendar months. A reasonable and thoroughly enjoyable way to spend those six months . . . but we're talking about a single building, and the OP wants a dozen or so such buildings and structures, plus street scenes and track work and all the other stuff that goes into a layout.
He gets a lot of credit for his vision and ambition, and loses no points whatsoever for adapting his plans to the reality of the situation.
Just my opinion, of course.
Robert,
You are spot on with your assessments. You followed along with my designing of the trusses for the train shed. You have a good idea of the massive size and details of the station and train shed.
I'm still going to go though with my original intentions. If I don't get every detail correct, so be it. I'm just going to tackle the layout one section at a time and try not to get frustrated by little complicated nuances that only I will notice.
I have decided Grand Central Station will sit tucked in a corner of my layout. Therefore, I will only need to model the south and west facing sides of the building. That will save a lot of time, material, and eliminate a lot of complex details. This will not diminish the quality of the layout at all in my opinion.
CMR1
The building will sit tucked in a corner like this.
Grand_Central_Station,_201_West_Harrison_Street_(Corner_of_West_Harrison_and_South_Wells),_Chicago,_Cook_County,_IL_HABS_ILL,16-CHIG,18-_(sheet_2_of_4)_LI
To me, this is a good step in simplifying. Why model what you can't see?
ATLANTIC CENTRALMaybe, but the War Between the States would be more my interest,
Really?
There is a very popular war game for the American Civil War called Battle Cry that was written by a man named Richard Borg.
Richard Borg lives in Orlando, and he runs the Battle Cry game every year at HurriCon. Playing the game with the rules writer as the official is a thrill, and it sure cuts down on interpretation arguments.
Almost as thrilling as the time I played a game of Ogre with Steve Jackson himself.
wjstix after deciding what they want to do, start to look at what if anything is available to model that railroad,
That is great advice. I cannot imagine going through a time of accurate research just to find out that it cannot be built because I lack the skills to scratchbuild and nothing RTR is available.
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL I guess that's why I'm not a war gamer........ . You would be a magnificent wargamer, just probably not fantasy. . Based on your posts, I can honestly picture you commanding a section of a Napoleanic force in an historical scenario and having a great time. . You are always welcome to come to an HMGS/South convention in Orlando and give it try. Zero investment, and we are a very welcoming bunch. Pete would love to have you on the grid. . I'll be in the other room playing Zombies or something. . -Kevin .
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I guess that's why I'm not a war gamer........
You would be a magnificent wargamer, just probably not fantasy.
Based on your posts, I can honestly picture you commanding a section of a Napoleanic force in an historical scenario and having a great time.
You are always welcome to come to an HMGS/South convention in Orlando and give it try. Zero investment, and we are a very welcoming bunch. Pete would love to have you on the grid.
I'll be in the other room playing Zombies or something.
Maybe, but the War Between the States would be more my interest, just yesterday I was reading General John Gordan's essay on the causes of the war.......
But I'm not likely to travel 1000 miles for war gaming or model train socializing........
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALI guess that's why I'm not a war gamer........
SeeYou190 Too bad that there is so little fantasy model railroading. Other than Thomas and Lego, what is really an option? . -Kevin .
Rich
Alton Junction
Fantasy? Well fictional road protolancing is as close to fantasy as I am interested in.....
I guess that's why I'm not a war gamer........
Personally, Thomas is more interesting than Lego or war gaming.........
Different strokes.........
SeeYou190Too bad that there is so little fantasy model railroading. Other than Thomas and Lego, what is really an option? -Kevin
Nothing is stopping you from doing fantasy model railroading. A "following" or a group of like minded people isn't needed. Blaze the trail.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
EilifA newbie's opinion here, but from the very beginning I've been going for an impressionistic layout and collection rather than perfection.
EilifI knew from the start I didn't have the space or budget to try and get a picture perfect layout. So, I'm settling for somethign that get's the spirit right and looks good through the glasses of nosltalgia.
That's my approach also.
In my case I'm trying to capture the essence/spirit of the Maryland and Pennsylvania RR of the early 50's before the end of passenger service the last day of August 1954. While a very few S scale kits and rtr undecorated are available, in most cases I'll use something else that fits the spirit.
cuyama cv_acr I think you guys over-estimate the "prototype modelers". Apart from a few individuals with below average social graces, most prototype modelers aren't too concerned with what everyone else is doing. +1 I've been around the hobby quite a while and I'm acquainted with some of the most rigorous prototype modelers and operators anywhere – and I've never heard or seen them say a critical thing about any other modeler’s approach. Like crocodiles in the sewers in NYC, the “mean old prototype nitpicker” is an urban legend. What does exist (in large numbers) are people who earnestly defend their more-relaxed approach … unnecessarily. It’s all good; model what you want, to whatever degree of rigor you choose – no one else really cares. Didn't the original poster himself indicate later that he enjoys prototype research – so the whole thread seems like a bit of a tempest in a teapot. In other words, just another day in the forums … Byron
cv_acr
+1
I've been around the hobby quite a while and I'm acquainted with some of the most rigorous prototype modelers and operators anywhere – and I've never heard or seen them say a critical thing about any other modeler’s approach.
Like crocodiles in the sewers in NYC, the “mean old prototype nitpicker” is an urban legend. What does exist (in large numbers) are people who earnestly defend their more-relaxed approach … unnecessarily. It’s all good; model what you want, to whatever degree of rigor you choose – no one else really cares.
Didn't the original poster himself indicate later that he enjoys prototype research – so the whole thread seems like a bit of a tempest in a teapot. In other words, just another day in the forums …
I am a fan of the stuff Byron Henderson writes, and if you have read his rants on 4'x8' layouts before you know he is not afraid to share his opinion. But his article raises a strong point, why worry about what the keyboard bashing prototype opinion warriors will say? At the end of the day a model railroad, any model railroad built and operating is a million times better than the one that is never built because the owner is afraid of online critics. Even Henderson admits his own views on 4'x8' layouts should be tossed out the window if a modeler dead set on building 'the sacred sheet' does it because they want to have fun and enter the hobby.
Graham Line For the record, I enjoy researching the prototype. My "research" now is confined to one railroad, in one area, in a limited time frame, so there aren't too many rabbit holes to go down or zebras to chase. It keeps me in touch with old friends and takes me back to a different time and place. Some topics are kind of a challenge but I bear up the best I can. There are pleasant surprises, as well.
For the record, I enjoy researching the prototype. My "research" now is confined to one railroad, in one area, in a limited time frame, so there aren't too many rabbit holes to go down or zebras to chase.
It keeps me in touch with old friends and takes me back to a different time and place. Some topics are kind of a challenge but I bear up the best I can. There are pleasant surprises, as well.
Same here, I'm really only concerned with the Mid Atlantic of the US in 1954. With each passing year I know less and less about current railroading and that fact does not bother me at all.
BRAKIE riogrande5761 Call me a skeptic but doubt its an urban legend and not seeing it for yourself doesn't confirm it as fact. I fully believe they are out there. Jim,Over the past or 50 years I've met all types of modelers some "rivit counters" could careless how others model; while other-well-let's say wasn't so nice.OTOH I've met modelers that was just plain stuckup and thought they was the best of the best while runnnning Athearn BB and Bachmann engines..
riogrande5761 Call me a skeptic but doubt its an urban legend and not seeing it for yourself doesn't confirm it as fact. I fully believe they are out there.
Jim,Over the past or 50 years I've met all types of modelers some "rivit counters" could careless how others model; while other-well-let's say wasn't so nice.OTOH I've met modelers that was just plain stuckup and thought they was the best of the best while runnnning Athearn BB and Bachmann engines..
I'm very happy with my fleet of Bachmann Spectrum steam locos, no matter what any of the "Brand Snobs" say........
We had one guy who wanted to join our round robin who thought he should be last word on prototype modeling...after a few months and a few uncomfortable evenings....we sent him a letter, letting him know he was no longer welcome.........
The nice things about a round robin, no bylaws, no dues, no legal problems, no tax returns..........and nobody who can't get along with others.
In 50 years in this hobby he has been the only person I ever met who thought he could tell others what was the right way or the wrong way to do this hobby.......
So there is at least one.
But the other side of this coin is this, I'm not obligated to be interested in what others are doing, so at an open house, or train show, or round robin meeting, or convention event, I'm not obligated to be chatty kathy with those who's approach is not in my "zone of interest".
I have toured a lot of layouts, by my standards, some great, some average, some not so great, but I have always been a polite and appreciative guest - that does not mean I always have a lot to say.......
I feel like following a prototype can suck the fun out of this hobby at times. As a current arm-chair modeler, I've definitely had my fair share of paralysis by analysis. I agree, you eventually have to just do it or you'll be stuck forever in that situation.
With that said, I also have fallen into the rivit counter trap. Not helping me by any means. Through researching and the constant raising the bar from the manufacturers, it's hard not to IMO. And when I do get around to building a layout, it will be a small shelf layout. I find it that in my case I want as accurate of a layout as possible. Only a handful of cars vs being concerned about filling out a long consist and the funds that come with it. Is it sad that I find more joy in researching than modeling?