mrrdad Does/did all the research and planning get to you? ...Anyone care to any similar revelations you've come across like this that helped you progress on your layout.
Does/did all the research and planning get to you?
...Anyone care to any similar revelations you've come across like this that helped you progress on your layout.
A newbie's opinion here, but from the very beginning I've been going for an impressionistic layout and collection rather than perfection.
I knew from the start I didn't have the space or budget to try and get a picture perfect layout. So, I'm settling for somethign that get's the spirit right and looks good through the glasses of nosltalgia.
If you have space, time, ability and $ to make something near-exact then more power to you but if not, it's probably best to reset your expectations and goals now rather than halfway through construction.
Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad for Chicago Trainspotting and Budget Model Railroading.
riogrande5761Call me a skeptic but doubt its an urban legend and not seeing it for yourself doesn't confirm it as fact. I fully believe they are out there.
Jim,Over the past or 50 years I've met all types of modelers some "rivit counters" could careless how others model; while other-well-let's say wasn't so nice.OTOH I've met modelers that was just plain stuckup and thought they was the best of the best while runnnning Athearn BB and Bachmann engines..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
For the record, I enjoy researching the prototype. My "research" now is confined to one railroad, in one area, in a limited time frame, so there aren't too many rabbit holes to go down or zebras to chase.
It keeps me in touch with old friends and takes me back to a different time and place. Some topics are kind of a challenge but I bear up the best I can. There are pleasant surprises, as well.
cuyama riogrande5761 Why would someone lie about their experience, such as in clubs, that we have seen posted in forums, even here? That's what makes it an urban legend. Everyone just "knows" that it occurs – even when it doesn't.
riogrande5761 Why would someone lie about their experience, such as in clubs, that we have seen posted in forums, even here?
That's what makes it an urban legend. Everyone just "knows" that it occurs – even when it doesn't.
In my best valley girl immitation - "what ev- arr!"
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Well, by its nature, a forum is where people who might be chattier than most come to talk. Expression of likes and dislikes is going to be very common relative to what many modelers, even us, would do in the flesh.
- Douglas
riogrande5761Why would someone lie about their experience, such as in clubs, that we have seen posted in forums, even here?
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
dehusmanDefinition pet peeve. If you are following a prototype, you are not "prototyping", you are modeling. To "prototype" is to create an original, the first one. Technically the person who is freelancing his layout is actually "prototyping" since he is building the first example of the railroad, the original, there is no other railroad being copied, it is the "prototype".
Aha! A fellow rivet-counter of the language! I agree with your observations, Dave, and one of the first things that sprang to mind for me was this mostly-scratchbuilt model representing a real boxcar...
...a model of a prototype.
However, its method of construction may also qualify it as a prototype: while model building with styrene is nothing new...
...sheathing it with metal tape can't be all that common...
...so it's a prototype in my own modelling experiences.
SeeYou190Mean Old Prototype Nitpickers" is NOT an urban legend. . They are very real, and plentiful. Not to mention loud and obnoxious...
I have an older friend who might qualify for that category, but his attitude is more inspired by the fact that he's continually upping his abilities. This leads him to see unacceptable stuff on others' layouts which he formerly accepted as "okay" on his own layout. To his credit, he expresses these views only to me, and not to the perceived "offenders".
I'm a bit of a rivet-counter, but only for my own stuff, and do appreciate fine work when I see it. However, when viewing anybody else's work, I prefer to look for the positives. I always held to the old adage that "If you don't have anything good to say, then keep it to yourself.", but that friend has taught me that a kind comment can do wonders, especially for a neophyte modeller. If you want to be a nitpicker, pick positive ones, and say something nice. It'll make both parties feel good.
Wayne
"Mean Old Prototype Nitpickers" is NOT an urban legend.
.
They are very real, and plentiful. Not to mention loud and obnoxious.
My guess is that they have all retired and moved to South Florida so none of you get to see them anymore. They are now a localized problem... in my locale!
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Definition pet peeve.
If you are following a prototype, you are not "prototyping", you are modeling.
To "prototype" is to create an original, the first one.
Technically the person who is freelancing his layout is actually "prototyping" since he is building the first example of the railroad, the original, there is no other railroad being copied, it is the "prototype".
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
cuyamaLike crocodiles in the sewers in NYC, the “mean old prototype nitpicker” is an urban legend.
Considering there are a lot of grumpy old men out there, in general, and the hobby is full of old men, I'd lay odds that a few of them couldn't keep their mouth shut.
Call me a skeptic but doubt its an urban legend and not seeing it for yourself doesn't confirm it as fact. I fully believe they are out there. Why would someone lie about their experience, such as in clubs, that we have seen posted in forums, even here?
It well known as people age, their "social monitoring" ebbs away. Those who have taken care of elderly know this all too well.
cv_acrI think you guys over-estimate the "prototype modelers". Apart from a few individuals with below average social graces, most prototype modelers aren't too concerned with what everyone else is doing.
+1
I've been around the hobby quite a while and I'm acquainted with some of the most rigorous prototype modelers and operators anywhere – and I've never heard or seen them say a critical thing about any other modeler’s approach.
Like crocodiles in the sewers in NYC, the “mean old prototype nitpicker” is an urban legend. What does exist (in large numbers) are people who earnestly defend their more-relaxed approach … unnecessarily. It’s all good; model what you want, to whatever degree of rigor you choose – no one else really cares.
Didn't the original poster himself indicate later that he enjoys prototype research – so the whole thread seems like a bit of a tempest in a teapot. In other words, just another day in the forums …
Byron
cv_acr leewal Amen! My model railroad would give a purist a heart attack I think you guys over-estimate the "prototype modelers". Apart from a few individuals with below average social graces, most prototype modelers aren't too concerned with what everyone else is doing.
leewal Amen! My model railroad would give a purist a heart attack
Amen! My model railroad would give a purist a heart attack
I think you guys over-estimate the "prototype modelers".
Apart from a few individuals with below average social graces, most prototype modelers aren't too concerned with what everyone else is doing.
Probably more than a few from the negative comments I've heard over the years, but it could be there are only a few and whatever they say provokes reaction and comments in large measure.
I've learned over the years it's best practice to keep ones opiniion to ones self when viewing trains and layouts - such as at train shows etc. I take a lot of what I see with a box car of salt since lots of people like to run anything with flanged wheels with little regard to "realism".
That said, at Timonium there is one layout where there are lots of pretty faithful trains ran, faith ful to certain era's and RR's and it's a pleasure to watch them. I can appreciate watching any train well modeled, even if it is from an era or region I generally have little interest in.
While I might have my own opinions about what impresses or inspires me, the point of a hobby is for the individual doing it to enjoy it their way.
Basically.
And there are aspects to model railroading where you may be into prototype, such as the trains, but maybe less so with the layout itself. After all, it can be a major challenge to not only model historically accurate trains AND run them on a layout that is faithful to an area, even if selectively compressed, which is pretty much a given.
dehusmanIf you don't have the space to build a larger yard, then say its an older yard and the railroad has to double in to make do.
A lot of thoe older yards was rebuilt over the years to accommodate longer cars this was done out of necessity and to improve transit time..
Not so long ago NS enlarged its Bellevue Moorman yard doubling the capacity in order to improve transit time.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThey would have done their best to build the yard for the "average" train,....
.... at the time the yard was designed and built. Over time cars get longer, engines get more powerful, trains get longer. However right of way doesn't get larger (in most cases).
A yard built in 1900 for 36 ft cars, by 1930 average 40 ft cars won' t fit in the same tacks and by 1970, 50 ft cars definietyl won't fit. So having to double is a choice the modeler has to decide. If you don't have the space to build a larger yard, then say its an older yard and the railroad has to double in to make do.
I and many of my best friends in the hobby fall into the prototype modeling camp. I also have local friends that just do "whatever" on their home layouts.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
Amen! My model railroad would give a purist a heart attack if he saw my Long Island Cannonball running on the main with a Santa Fe Warbonnet passenger train or my Orient Express. My double main is for display running what-ever while the lower level is the branch lines with four towns where I do all the switching, which is what I really enjoy. When the daily turns leave the yard they have to navigate the busy main to reach the branch line. I like trains and buy and run what I like. Sometimes I feel like the local home builder who builds a house on every square inch of land he can find. If I find a small open space I try to find a small building that would fit into that space and look appropriate. Start building your layout and be prepared to compromise. It's never going to turn out exactly as you put on paper no matter how much time you take planning. A 14 year old once told my modular group at a train show that the train we we running was not "protoctpical" (It wasn't meant to be, it was entertainment for show visitors) and he only ran prototypicaly. I asked him if his trains were made of plastic. When he said yes I told him that was not very prototypical since real trains were made of steel. He walked away scratching his head. Build what you like, it's your railroad not the critics. I've been ernjoying my same 11 X 22 layout for over 25 years and I still do something with it every day. It's supposed to be fun. It even says so on MR's covers.
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL I like long trains, they are a key part of realism for me, so the only visable yard will be about 20' long to support 35/40 car trains, or longer trains that will require "doubling" in and out of the yard. It is always interesting to get some sense of how others live. Our old house was about 4,000 sq of finished space, plus a 1300 sq ft basement not suitable for model trains (unfinished stone foundation basement, limited head room, some areas less than 6', 1901 house) and my layout space was a room above the detached garage/workshop, a building I designed and had built. Our retirement house is a 2600 sq ft rancher, but only 1600 sq ft has basement. The basement is very nice and will be a great layout space. Just the right size layout I suspect........I will still be building a additional detached garage, just not a great big "barn" like before. Sheldon Sheldon. A question about the prototype in your era and location. How often did real railroads have to "double" up a train in yards? Just thinking out loud, I assume mid Atlantic/Appalachian roads had space limitations in the mountains or foothills. Probably searched for flat spots to build yards. Much like us modeler's, they didn't always have enough real estate to do what they wanted and had to do the best with what they had. As far as how people live, I have a two story house with 2,700 sf and a 1400 sf basement with 1000 sf of living space (too much space really but we had limited choices due to a job relo). Choices for the layout are a 200 sf finished room above the garage that is actually a bedroom, so its accessed by trapsing throught the entire house. Or a 250 sf area in the unfinished portion of the basement that is actually a garage with an insulated door. Easier access but not as nice of a room, with some humidity concerns. Here in GA, because of the constant humidity, each finished level has its own HVAC, so a house like mine with finished areas on three levels would have three separante furnaces and AC units. They work very hard when the humidity is high.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I like long trains, they are a key part of realism for me, so the only visable yard will be about 20' long to support 35/40 car trains, or longer trains that will require "doubling" in and out of the yard. It is always interesting to get some sense of how others live. Our old house was about 4,000 sq of finished space, plus a 1300 sq ft basement not suitable for model trains (unfinished stone foundation basement, limited head room, some areas less than 6', 1901 house) and my layout space was a room above the detached garage/workshop, a building I designed and had built. Our retirement house is a 2600 sq ft rancher, but only 1600 sq ft has basement. The basement is very nice and will be a great layout space. Just the right size layout I suspect........I will still be building a additional detached garage, just not a great big "barn" like before. Sheldon
I like long trains, they are a key part of realism for me, so the only visable yard will be about 20' long to support 35/40 car trains, or longer trains that will require "doubling" in and out of the yard.
It is always interesting to get some sense of how others live. Our old house was about 4,000 sq of finished space, plus a 1300 sq ft basement not suitable for model trains (unfinished stone foundation basement, limited head room, some areas less than 6', 1901 house) and my layout space was a room above the detached garage/workshop, a building I designed and had built.
Our retirement house is a 2600 sq ft rancher, but only 1600 sq ft has basement. The basement is very nice and will be a great layout space. Just the right size layout I suspect........I will still be building a additional detached garage, just not a great big "barn" like before.
Sheldon
Sheldon. A question about the prototype in your era and location.
How often did real railroads have to "double" up a train in yards?
Just thinking out loud, I assume mid Atlantic/Appalachian roads had space limitations in the mountains or foothills. Probably searched for flat spots to build yards. Much like us modeler's, they didn't always have enough real estate to do what they wanted and had to do the best with what they had.
As far as how people live, I have a two story house with 2,700 sf and a 1400 sf basement with 1000 sf of living space (too much space really but we had limited choices due to a job relo). Choices for the layout are a 200 sf finished room above the garage that is actually a bedroom, so its accessed by trapsing throught the entire house. Or a 250 sf area in the unfinished portion of the basement that is actually a garage with an insulated door. Easier access but not as nice of a room, with some humidity concerns. Here in GA, because of the constant humidity, each finished level has its own HVAC, so a house like mine with finished areas on three levels would have three separante furnaces and AC units. They work very hard when the humidity is high.
They would have done their best to build the yard for the "average" train, but longer trains were often doubled in and out. I'm trying for the same effect.
The best houses here also have separate HVAC systems for each floor, and our summers are humid as well. My big 2-1/2 story Queen Anne has one A/C system for the top two floors, an one for the first floor.
Given a choice I would never choose forced air heat, no matter the fuel. Both the old house and the new house have hot water baseboard, and separate stand alone central air.
But a basement like my new (to me) house needs little or no heat or cooling. It is completely below grade, with no exposed "walkout" walls. The only basement entrance is in the attached garage. The basement stays 60-65 degrees all year with just a dehumidifier. The radiant heat from the boiler and heating pipes warm it a bit in the winter.
Graham Line And I'll bet the laundry and HVAC systems are well out of your way.
And I'll bet the laundry and HVAC systems are well out of your way.
The laundry is upstairs in the living space, the A/C and its ductwork are in the attic (were it belongs), and the heat which is hot water baseboard, only requires a 4'x4' foot print in the basement for the boiler and the gas domestic water heater as well.
SeeYou190 BuchananBucks in my 1300 SF basement . My whole house is only 1,300 square feet. No basement, no attic. . Carving out a 400 square foot train room was task. . -Kevin .
BuchananBucks in my 1300 SF basement
My whole house is only 1,300 square feet. No basement, no attic.
Carving out a 400 square foot train room was task.
My wife and I just moved into our "retirement house" and my layout space inceased from 950 sq ft to nearly 1600 sq ft.
And I have no intention of trying to model any "real places" "inch for inch".
My 400' double track mainline will just hope "look believable" and will only model one small city and the trackage in and out of that sub division terminal.
The layout will have hidden staging for about 30 trains each about 20' long.
Even with what seems like a large space, this hobby requires lots of selective compression, artistic license, and compromise.
BuchananBucksin my 1300 SF basement
BuchananBucks Hi Ed, As I live near Elkhart IN, I decided to model the NS from Elkhart to Burns Harbor in HO on two 145' long decks connected by a 5'x5' Helix. After a LONG period of research, I discovered that I could not exactly model that section of the NS prototypically in my 1300 SF basement (duh). <snip> I'm having a blast! Cheers! Dan
Hi Ed, As I live near Elkhart IN, I decided to model the NS from Elkhart to Burns Harbor in HO on two 145' long decks connected by a 5'x5' Helix. After a LONG period of research, I discovered that I could not exactly model that section of the NS prototypically in my 1300 SF basement (duh).
<snip>
I'm having a blast! Cheers!
Dan
1300 SF - sweet. I did a lot of searching in northern Virgnia but homes with such big basements in this area were out of my budget. I had to settle for a 700 SF basement but the layout area is less than that. Still, I've come up with a plan I am pleased with and hopefully won't take as long to build once I get started - hopefully this fall after the basement is finished. (bathroom and floor left to go).
“less is more”
Doesn't look like Dan is going for a “less is more” format! Not in the least!
But they were just singers in a rock and roll band.
Dave hit the nail on the head - the OP did a lot of research, and determined that what he researched is too complicated. The hard part is maybe giving up on that and researchign a different area of the same railroad, or a different reailroad, the the research has revealed that this is not the location and railroad for him. And there's nothing wrong with that. Better to have discovered this up front via research than get half a room filled up and then realize that it won't be finishable.
I'm not for replicating rivet by rivet, blade of grass by blade of grass. That level of fidelity to a prototype location doesn't do it for me. Look at Jack Burgess - DESPITE all his research, he's still changing things, because further researchs uncovers more information, stuff that was either incorrect in an earlier source, or just not readily visible. As more complete and accurate information is uncovered, he modifies that scene in question to get the ultimate in exact fidelity. Such an undertaking would be, I posit, impossible or nearly impossible for a much larger prototype. Analysis paralysis is a real thing - where do you draw the line? Modeling a otwn in July of 1935? Oh, in one picture, the hosue a block over from the train station appears to be painted white or yellow, in another, it appears blue. When did that happen? Before July, or after July? Sorry, that level of detail does not bother me enough to study umpteen photos and try to get accurate dates on all of them. If there's supposed to be a house there, and I have a house there - good enough. On a more macro level - I can't exactly duplicate the track arrangments, either. Oh, that line is supposed to curve off to the right on leaving the yard? Well, the wall's over there, so it has to curve to the left. That's just how it goes when the real world intrudes on the model world.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
up831 The whole thing on the saying is just a play on words, kind of in the same vein as the Moody Blues saying, “I think, therefore I am,....I think.”
The whole thing on the saying is just a play on words, kind of in the same vein as the Moody Blues saying, “I think, therefore I am,....I think.”
Rich
Alton Junction
Absolutely. The Rev. Awdry was among many British churchmen who were very knowlegeable railway aficionados.
We have most of the original small-format books, and the equipment, settings, and situations are all what we would call prototypically correct. Some of the rolling stock may look like a cartoon to US eyes, but Toby the Tram and his coach are drawn directly from real-life Wisbach & Upwell tramway.
That's just one example. My son heard the stories as a child and his kids are getting old enough now to appreciate a little longer bedtime story. The stories are about how to react to situations, how to get along with others, and other really useful concepts.
The rot set in after the series narrated by Ringo Starr and George Carlin. I spent a pleasant afternoon around 1989 with Christoper Awdry, author of some of the later books. He loved talking about his father and his books, but was pretty quiet about the later TV programs when people asked.
up831 Sheldon: I’m with you on the “less is more” thing. The Bauhaus movement was about minimalism and I’m a fan. The whole thing on the saying is just a play on words, kind of in the same vein as the Moody Blues saying, “I think, therefore I am,....I think.” The only thing I didn’t get was that Mies is his last name, but when you put it with Ludwig, it figures.
Sheldon: I’m with you on the “less is more” thing. The Bauhaus movement was about minimalism and I’m a fan. The whole thing on the saying is just a play on words, kind of in the same vein as the Moody Blues saying, “I think, therefore I am,....I think.” The only thing I didn’t get was that Mies is his last name, but when you put it with Ludwig, it figures.
OK, I am a residential designer and historic restoration consultant by trade, just shy of being an "Architect". Personally, modern is not really my style, but it is part of the historical record of architecture, and part of my job.
I just moved out of this:
A late Queen Anne built in 1901 which I restored in 1996/97. It goes on the market next week.
Late, or "mature" Queen Anne houses like this one typically have considerable Colonial Revival influence, and are generally a blend of the high Victorian and more simplified Colonial/Federal features.
Form does/can follow function, but "modern" (Wright, Mies van der Rohe), and post modern (post war 40's/early 50's) sometimes tries to deny some of the proven facts about what appeals to the eye in terms of proportion.
Wright thought bedrooms should be small spaces just for sleeping, and that cars should be parked in car ports not garages........
The only thing I really like about modern is something they borrowed from the 11 Victorian period styles - built ins. Wright and Mies loved built in furniture.
The Victorian era motto is called Mores's law - Some is good, more is better, too much is still not enough.
Living in 4,000 sq feet and 15 rooms of Queen Anne splendor for 23 years was the adventure of a life time. We received a Preservation Award for our efforts and our house was featured on HGTV's Restore America.
Hopefully the next person enjoys it as much as we did.
So being the kind of person I am, and ding what I do, I get the OP and his "research". But after a while you just have to say "close enough".
Some years ago, I bought the Walthers Empire Tanning Company, a large complex of brick structures that I had way too much fun building and detailing, inside and out. What surprised me, though, was the one page description of how tanning was done. I ended up building a salt bin, and a covered hopper to supply it. I also used an oil tanker platform, and a chemical car to deliver acid along with oil to power the facility. I picked up a couple of old boxcars and labelled them for hide service only. With one shared siding, I gained a complex industry to complement the old Swift slaughterhouse plant on the other side of the layout.
I learned nothing about my home road, but building the tannery and giving it some realistic traffic was a nice project with a finite end. It will give me incentive to research the other industries and see how they, too, can fill out a lot about how these old rail customers operated, what they needed and what they shipped.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Jim (with a nod to Mies Van Der Rohe)
Hi Ed, As I live near Elkhart IN, I decided to model the NS from Elkhart to Burns Harbor in HO on two 145' long decks connected by a 5'x5' Helix. After a LONG period of research, I discovered that I could not exactly model that section of the NS prototypically in my 1300 SF basement (duh). So, I chose to fudge some of the details that would not wreck my concept: create 2' wide shelf switching layout, single mainline track, 5 LDEs (or concentrated industrial switching areas), and set in summer of 2009. Traffic would be controlled by signals using LCC components, and NO soldering under the railroad; only on feeders. Planning took 2 years, but along the way, I purchased locos and cars to do the work representative of the work done at the actual industries I am modeling. All the buildings on my railroad will need to be kitbashed or scratch built as no kits are made for them. During that time, I also bought scenery, PECO track and turnouts, MTB MP1 switch machines, NCE wireless DCC system, LCC Components for the top deck, circuit breakers, wiring/connectors, and likely a bunch of stuff I don’t need. 3 1/2 years from start, I have all of the serpentine wall framing completed, the top deck is installed and all track laid, 2 of the LDE areas are completely tested and functional under DCC, and the cab bus is installed. I still need to run the 12 volt bus for switch machines and Accys, and the LCC bus, but I should have them completed in the next two months. Aside from the framing and section frames (2'x8's make up the framing of the shelfs), I have done all of the work myself. I used the first LDE as a prototype for track laying, wiring, fascia, and test methods, so once fine tuned, I could easily replicate it over the rest of the railroad. My schema was helped greatly by many of my NMRA friends, and a couple of NS employees. One of them, an engineer, used to run my layout's areas in 2009 and he gave me the customer info, load type, load frequency info, etc. What a blessing he was/is! My point is that I finally had to start building and trust that along the way, I'd find out where my concept would fit, and where it fell on its face. I'm having a blast! Cheers!