I think I would look into replacing the wheel sets with metal wheels, and use the plastic trucks.
I think total axle length varies between manufacturers, such as Athearn vs. Rivarossi, so you might need to measure what the excisting wheel sets are, and what type of ends they have, and how they fit into the trucks.
I'm not sure how many variations there are, but something to pay attention to when looking for replacements wheels sets.
Mike.
My You Tube
mbinsewi I think I would look into replacing the wheel sets with metal wheels, and use the plastic trucks. I think total axle length varies between manufacturers, such as Athearn vs. Rivarossi, so you might need to measure what the excisting wheel sets are, and what type of ends they have, and how they fit into the trucks. I'm not sure how many variations there are, but something to pay attention to when looking for replacements wheels sets. Mike.
And, I would add that, although the more prototypical .087 width wheel treads look better unless you have almost perfect track work, I use the wider wheels from Kadee.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
If you are replacing the trucks, truck gemetry is very important. Some have the king pin centered and some have it offset. Are the couplers part of the truck or are they body mounted? It will cause problems if you mix the two at a particular coupling.
Model manufactures tend to cheat the position of the trucks in order to use 18" curves. The clser they are to the middle the tighter curve a car can negotiate, but the problem is then moved to the ends of the cars which may swing so far apart as to cause issues with the car that it is coupled to.
LION has not examined every car on the planed, but him has many Riverossi cars (Think 1970s vintage) that have truck mounted couplers, Kadee has kits to work with these, and I have used them on my entire fleet.
LION kept the plastic trucks and just replaced the wheels. Keeps the geometry simple.
Wheel size then becomes an issue. Some manufactures cheat down on the wheel size so that where you would expect a 36" wheel you will find a 33" or a non-standard wheel size. Those older Riverossi's had cookee-cutter wheels. Those need to go in any event.
Some pax car wheel sets have plastic wheels on metal axels, an all metal wheel set may present electrical problems especially if you are trying to light the cars. Which way you mount the wheels is important.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
When I was in N scale... way back in the 1980s and 1990s... MicroTrains did not make passenger cars, but they made generic "4 wheel" and "6 wheel" passenger car trucks.
.
These were great, and they made every passenger car by Bachmann, Con Cor, and Rivarossi actually run really good. They came with all kinds of adapters to make them work.
It would be great if Kadee would do the same thing in HO scale. I, like the OP, would cheerfully accept a compromise "generic" passenger car truck that really worked well in exchange for prototype specific detailing.
Trucks, wheels, couplers, and track all need to be reliable over having fine detail.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
i agree with Mike. Try the metal wheelsets first. About $70 per 100 at MBKlein. That should show a marked improvment and changing trucks may not be necessary.
I second the motion on keeping the plastic trucks especially if they were made for use with that particular car. If you don't have one, now is the time to invest in a TruckTuner which fits into the bearings of a plastic truck and smooths out the bearing so wheels - including perhaps your original plastic wheels - will roll much better. I regard the TruckTuner as step one to address poor-rolling cars. But metal wheels have other advantages.
There are some side effects of a wheel change. LION mentioned that Rivarossi/AHM/IHC passenger cars had undersized wheels and oversized flanges. The wheels are closer to 30" which is grossly undersized. (IHC used to sell metal wheel replacements for their passenger cars and they roll well as I recall, BUT I believe they are the same undersized 30". Still you might consider them if you can find them.)
Replacing them with accurate metal 36" wheels has several effects.
First of all it raises the car and raises the couplers whether they are body mounted or "talgo"/truck mounted. There may be issues there.
Second, the Rivarossi/AHM trucks (not sure about IHC) had cast on brake shoes which rub against the wheel tread of a 36" wheel (and perhaps even of a 33" wheel which is smaller than scale but a common compromise with AHM cars). The brake shoes can be carefully filed or sanded down (I used a round file) so they do not rub on the wheel tread but this is trial and error. Some guys clip them off but I regard them as a nice bit of detail and try to preserve them when I can.
Third, now may be the time when you think of lighting the car interior with track power so there may be more work involved in this conversion than any of us are talking about.
Dave Nelson
Hello All,
Complete replacement can be expensive.
Check out this thread...One-Piece Bettendorf Frames
You did not mention whether the trucks are 4- or 6-axel.
As has been mentioned you might consider keeping the trucks and just replace the plastic wheels with metal ones.
Most passenger cars have 36-inch (scale) wheels rather than the 33-inch (scale) found on most freight cars and other rolling stock.
A quick search on eBay shows 24 PCS 36" Metal Wheels (from China) $22.99 w/free shipping.
I would highly recommend getting a HO Truck Tuning Tool from Micro-Mark. This tool faces the insides of the truck frames. I bought one and it has revived many a slow moving pair of trucks.
A pair of HO Truck Spreading Pliers would be a handy item too depending on how many sets of wheels you are replacing.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Some years ago our club had all of us change to Intermountain machined metal wheels. We would keep a bag of one hundred on hand and a Micro Mark truck tuner. A slight touch up from the tuner.
We prefered them over the black Kadee sintered wheels. Compressed metal powder which is ok. They do sell.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
starmanI am interested in replacing these trucks and wheels with metal trucks and wheels. I am more interested in the cars running smooth and easy than I am in accurate appearance.
Actually the plastic trucks probably will end up rolling better than what you'd have with metal trucks. With metal trucks, you have metal-on-metal (metal axles / metal trucks) which would normally mean you'd need to oil them every so often - just like real railroads had to do with 'friction' wheels/trucks. Plastic is 'slippery' and the metal axles will spin more freely inside them.
wjstix starman I am interested in replacing these trucks and wheels with metal trucks and wheels. I am more interested in the cars running smooth and easy than I am in accurate appearance. Actually the plastic trucks probably will end up rolling better than what you'd have with metal trucks. With metal trucks, you have metal-on-metal (metal axles / metal trucks) which would normally mean you'd need to oil them every so often - just like real railroads had to do with 'friction' wheels/trucks. Plastic is 'slippery' and the metal axles will spin more freely inside them.
starman I am interested in replacing these trucks and wheels with metal trucks and wheels. I am more interested in the cars running smooth and easy than I am in accurate appearance.
richg1998We prefered them over the black Kadee sintered wheels. Compressed metal powder which is ok. They do sell.
Again, this old piece of misinformation has popped up.
Kadee wheels are not sintered or made out of powdered material.
wjstixActually the plastic trucks probably will end up rolling better than what you'd have with metal trucks. With metal trucks, you have metal-on-metal (metal axles / metal trucks) which would normally mean you'd need to oil them every so often - just like real railroads had to do with 'friction' wheels/trucks. Plastic is 'slippery' and the metal axles will spin more freely inside them.
There is a lot more to a truck/wheel assembly then just free rolling. They also need to traverse maybe-less-than-perfect track, track through turnouts and crossings, STAY ON THE RAILS, be readily available, have excellent quality control, and provide maintnenance free/trouble free operation.
For all I have found, the good old Kadee sprung trucks with metal wheels on plastic axles are the best all-around product on the market.
starmanI have several passenger cars that have plastic trucks and wheels. They move OK but not great. I am interested in replacing these trucks and wheels with metal trucks and wheels....
A lot depends on the type of plastic used. Nowadays, most plastic trucks are made from hard engineering-type plastic, such as Delrin. While it doesn't take paint all that well (it is paintable, but the paint adherence is iffy if the trucks are handled a lot), it's otherwise very durable. Because of its hardness, it's a good choice for trucks, and, in my opinion, better than most metal trucks as far as rolling qualities and longevity are concerned.Rivarossi, for one, used a softer plastic on their passenger car trucks, and while they were nicely detailed and durable enough for the very underweight rolling stock riding on them, they deteriorated rather quickly if the modeller added too much weight to the cars (ask me how I learned that). Rivarossi passenger car wheels, in plastic or metal, were grossly undersize, but could be replaced fairly easily using Kadee 36" metal wheels on plastic axles.While I have quite a few (too many) cars with metal wheels, I prefer Delrin plastic wheels to metal ones, preferably on steel or brass axles. It's my feeling that metal wheels are erroneously marketed as having better rolling qualities when in fact the wheel material has little bearing (no pun itended) on rolling qualities. However, the majority of current-day offerings of metal wheelsets do have better axle ends than those on older plastic wheelsets, and because different manufacturers' trucks require axles of different lengths, the modeller can suit the replacement wheelsets' axle-length to the trucks which they're using - one size definitely does not fit all.
I would have preferred to have seen someone offering replacement axles, in lengths and tip profiles to fit the sideframes of earlier rolling stock, like that offered by Athearn and Model Die Casting (generally not bad rolling qualities) and older cars like those from Tyco/Mantua, Model Power, Train Miniature, etc. The modeller then could have used the stock wheels on new axles, at a much lower cost, to obtain better rolling qualities....of course, not much revenue generated for the manufacturer by that option.I don't generally worry too much about rolling qualities, though, but do much-prefer the quieter Delrin wheels to metal ones, the sound of latter variety does not at all sound like those of a real train - simply too much noise.For those who don't mind the noise and expense, please take the time to paint your shiny new wheels, which otherwise make even the most highly-detailed model look toylike. For cars with roller bearing truck sideframes, the wheel faces, front and back, along with the axles, should be rust-coloured (the "u" is optional), with perhaps some weathering added.For older eras, before roller bearings came into widespread use, wheel faces on solid-bearing trucks should be black/grimey black/oily black, etc., with rust coloured wheel-backs and axles, again with some weathering.
Medina1128And, I would add that, although the more prototypical .087 width wheel treads look better unless you have almost perfect track work, I use the wider wheels from Kadee.
I would very respectfully disagree with you on the appearance of the semi-scale wheelsets, Marlon. While the wheels themselves do look better (closer to scale), the overly-wide sideframes (to accommodate our usually overly-wide wheels) tend to make the overall effect look somewhat ridiculous - a clown on a tiny tricycle is what springs to mind for me.
starman...metal trucks and wheels....
Here's a baggage car with Central Valley's metal trucks and metal wheels (at one time, the ne plus ultra of trucks)....
....a nicely-rolling car, but not comparable to most offerings nowadays, whether equipped with metal or Delrin wheelsets.
Here's another baggage car, with Athearn metal wheels in metal trucks...
...the camera's not tilted, nor was I drunk when taking the photo. The car is on a 2.8" grade - it was pushed, by hand, to the location shown, and when the helping hand was removed, it came to an almost immediate stop.
If you want to see a fairly free-rolling car this link jumps in on the 7th page of a thread which outlines the building of the car shown (along with many others). It's not a video, but rather a series of photos. I tried, but was unable, to add a picture to the thread showing the layout room, which gives an idea of how far the car travelled.Here's that picture....
...the car travelled from South Cayuga, through the towns mentioned in the narrative, and stopped just short of the entrance to the layout room. The trucks used were Walthers (formerly LifeLike Proto2000) National B-1 freight trucks.
Wayne
I would add another vote for replacing the plastic wheelsets with metal ones, and getting a Truck Tuner to use during the replacement. I've done this to a lot of freight cars and the cars roll so well that I have needed to fix sidings and uncoupling magnets to compensate better for runaways.
I've even replaced metal trucks with plastic ones in this process.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
SeeYou190For all I have found, the good old Kadee sprung trucks with metal wheels on plastic axles are the best all-around product on the market.
A slightly different perspective...Sprung vs. un-sprung trucks...performance gains or losses over looks? Your thoughts???
I ended up using CA on one side of the sprung trucks to "lock out" one side after this thread.
Next I changed from Kadee sprung trucks to their HGC split bolster type. Still pretty expensive for 30-40 pieces of rolling stock at $10.25 per car.
Then...One-Piece Bettendorf frames
jjdamnitThat being said at $64.97 ($59.98 + $4.99 S/H) for 50 frames then adding the cost of 100 Intermountain wheels (found on eBay for $79.49) that would be approximately $2.89 per truck.
I am seriously considering converting my fleet of hoppers (more than 30 cars) over to the Accurail/Intermountain truck/wheel combination.
That would free up all the Kadee's for other applications.
starmanI have several passenger cars that have plastic trucks and wheels. They move OK but not great. I am interested in replacing these trucks and wheels with metal trucks and wheels. I am more interested in the cars running smooth and easy than I am in accurate appearance. I don’t have a lot of money I can put into new tracks and wheels. What trucks and wheels do you recommend?
Anyway... Getting back to the OP's dillema of poorly performing passenger car trucks...
I would like to know what brand of passenger car he is using. We all seemed to assume it was AHM/Rivarossi/IHC, but it could be something else entirely.
SeeYou190I would like to know what brand of passenger car he is using. We all seemed to assume it was AHM/Rivarossi/IHC, but it could be something else entirely.
Absolutly!
...And are they two- or three-axle trucks?
Unfortunately Kadee doesn't make a three axle truck so refurbishing the existing three-axle trucks and upgrading with metal wheels would make more sense and save money.
I have no experience messing with passenger car trucks/wheels, but I do do alot of freight cars. I usually keep the plastic trucks but add metal couplers to the cars. In HO I have primarily used Intermountain wheels, and in N Atlas wheels. I don't know if Intermountain does N scale stuff, i'd assume so, but I happened to have Atlas ones around when I rewheeled my N fleet. I really like Intermountain stuff, but I recommend you buy them in bulk. They get expensive quick if you by a bunch of 12 packs!
Good luck!
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
I agree with Dave, some wheelsets are made for certain cars, so try to keep the originals. My Athearn cars have electric pick up if desired. To replace the wheelsets you'd have to find ones with the same configuration. I had to be careful when I used the truck tuner to return the wheelsets in each truck in the correct orientation.
Purchase a truck tuner, if you don't have one, it's a good investment as it can be used on all your rolling stock. Use that first and see if the rolling quality doesn't improve markedly. Mine did.
Good luck,
Richard
Common knowledge Kadee wheels have been made from sintered metal powered since the beginning.
They recently advertised they have been using a finer powder. I lost the discusion.
Made under pressure.
Many have noticed over the years that Kadees can pick up ditrt over time since they are not machined metal.
Squeeze a Kadee wheel in a vise grip and see what you get. It should crumble. A steel wheel would just deform. Maybe that will change as technology improves.
Email from Kadee.
" Our wheelsets have Delrin plastic axles and the wheels are made of "pure zinc" with a cold bath chemical coating, the same as our metal couplers. Our wheels do not attrack dirt any more than other makes of metal wheels. The major issues with dirt is the with the track itself, the enviorment around the track, the location of the layout, and such. It's more of a matter of how much dirt is available for the wheels to actaully pick up. Another issue is the way modelers clean their track. If you ask 50 different modelers what's the best way to clean track you're going to get 57 different answers. However, in this regard they all may have found the best way to clean "their track in their location" which may or may not work for other's track in their locations. Thanks for asking, we do appreciate it. We do find many rumors base on people simply not asking us directly for the information that's needed." Sam Clarke R&D / Tech Advisor / Artist Kadee Quality Products Co. mail@kadee.com 541-826-3883
Mark Vinski
richg1998Common knowledge
Or urban myth. Like it is "common knowledge" that running your car with less than 1/8 of a tank of fuel will hurt your engine, it will not.
mvlandswEmail from Kadee. " Our wheelsets have Delrin plastic axles and the wheels are made of "pure zinc" with a cold bath chemical coating, the same as our metal couplers.
I have shared many statements from Kadee in here as well. People are so dedicated to this "sintered powdered metal" thing that they will not let it go. Cast zinc that is chemically blackened is a great way to manufacture model train car wheels.
I am 100% satisfied with Kadee product to the point that ALL of my freight cars have Kadee wheels, and all but 1 have Kadee trucks. I use Kadee couplers only, and 90% of the time I mount them in Kadee coupler boxes. I have WAY TOO MANY PS-1 boxcars because the Kadee model is the best freight car money can buy.
All my STRATTON AND GILLETTE HO scale layouts have used Shinohara track and Kadee wheels, and I have enjoyed ZERO derailments, and nearly no track cleaning.
Bashing a popular product that is well made with amazing quality control seems to be a popular thing to do on the internet. The company I work for constantly has to deal with incorrect "common knowledge" being passed around by people who really enjoy pretending they have any idea what they are talking about.
This Kadee thing is really nothing. You should see the lies in the Diesel Engine forums!
There is a coating on Kadee wheels, and some report that it wears off with time and use. I use a wire brush in a Dremel tool to remove it on the treads because the metalic shine is more realistic for treads.
starman I have a HO scale Bachmann 6 Unit Deluxe Passenger Car Set, Series Two, item #43-1291. The cars are two axels per truck. I am pulling these cars with a MTH J Class engine. I have trouble going up a three percent grade. The engine wheels seem to spin a little.
I looked at the same set on an Ebay listing, just to see what you have.
A 3% grade is pretty steep!. Maybe a little more weight added to the locomotive might help.
starmanFrom what I am hearing, I should probably keep the trucks and switch over to metal wheels.
I don't think there is any thing wrong with the trucks, and metal wheel sets might help.
Take a wheel set out and see what the ends of the axle look like. If it's a needle point thing, get yourself the truck tuner that others have talked about, and use it on the trucks before inserting the new wheel sets.
Once the new wheels are in place, flick them with your finger to get them rolling. They should continue spinning for a few seconds.
I'm not familiar with what Bachmann used, as far as what the axles look like, and I don't own any similar cars to look for myself.
Rich, you're welcome to come by our shop and actually watch us make our wheels as that might be the only way to prove to you they are not nor have ever been made of sintered metal. We don't even have the machinery to make sintered metal anything. You need to check your "common knowledge" sources and I'd really like to see that advertiserment you mentioned. If you have any questions about Kadee products please ask Kadee.
Thank you Kevin for your comments and efforts to stop the rumors.
Sam Clarke R&D
Kadee Quality Products
Sam
It's called the Mandela effect. Many people remember news reports that Nelson Mandela died in prison even though he was released from prison and lived for years afterward.
https://mandelaeffect.com/nelson-mandela-died-in-prison/
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
starman...I am pulling these cars with a MTH J Class engine. I have trouble going up a three percent grade. The engine wheels seem to spin a little.....
The advice to get a truck tuner is good, as is the suggestion to add weight to your locomotive. While extra weight will improve the pulling power, for best results it should be balanced at the mid-point of the drivers' wheelbase. Extra weight, not properly balanced, can actually decrease pulling power.However, the perhaps marginal rolling qualities of the passenger cars and the difficulty the locomotive is having pulling them up that grade is really your locomotive and train urging you to buy an additional locomotive, to be doubleheaded with the one you have.
My layout is mostly curves and grades, mostly occurring in the same locations, so the effect is compounded. Most of my trains are doubleheaded, and many use pushers, too. The worst grades are about 2.8%, and are on multiple curves. I have, however, successfully run trains in excess of 70 cars.
Here's an old video showing a train on a 2.8% grade laid on an "S"-bend. Click on the image to activate it...
(It's DC operation, so the only sound is of the struggling locomotives and passing train.)
dknelsonThere is a coating on Kadee wheels, and some report that it wears off with time and use.
Some of my Kadee wheels are going on thirty-years old. I put a lot of milage on these cars and the wheel treads have mostly taken on a reflective polish. They do not accumulate "crud" and, to me they don't look "porous" as some have mentioned.
I've never had any instance of the Kadee needlepoint wearing out, either. In my estimation the Kedee wheelsets get better with age and running time.
Cheers, Ed