The reason I see the point of waiting is I want a Walthers RTR turntable but not enough to pay $300 for it, got one for $50, out the door. Had a bit of a skip, do to a gear on the bridge, worked fine but then I am a profectionist. For for $20 I got a pair bridges, one 90' and one 130' (needed 90'), got my perfect bridge and a replacement gear off the longer one and lots of other parts too.
I see brass detail parts all the time on ebay, MV also. Need to know exact model you wanted. I just got a Westside class A climax for $200, mint in box, had a bunch to choose from, painted, unpainted. If you need it now, you will pay a mint for most things, patence is what you need.
PRR8259 Hmmm. What you don't need now you can buy later if you do...RIGHT! Sure! With model trains I disagree.
Hmmm. What you don't need now you can buy later if you do...RIGHT! Sure!
With model trains I disagree.
I didn't need Amtrak Heritiage phase 1 passenger cars until Athearn finally announced the engine I needed to pull a 1970's San Francisco Zephyr. It looks like Walthers ran them a few years back. But when I saw Athearn announce my SDP40F's with ice breakers, I started hunting and figured I'd be screwed. Instead I managed to find most of the pointless arrow and phase 2 passenger cars I needed: baggage, lounges, diner, plenty of sleepers and even an ACF 44 seat coach (which arrived from Sweden). All I need are a couple more coaches and I'll have more than enough dog's breakfast cars for a San Francisco Zephyr.
I guess it just depends. But brass, well, brass engines have pretty much always been out of my price range anyway. I've struggled to afford the brass cabooses I do have although unpainted have come down. I picked up a UP CA 5/6 for $90 and a D&RGW 1500 series caboose for about the same.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
With model trains I disagree. There are engines, both brass and otherwise, that I remember being relatively plentiful at one time or another in the past. I lacked the money or commitment to buy them at that time, and they are just gone from the marketplace now.
According to brasstrains.com, the values of all BUT the very last production runs of a given brass model have plummeted, but one cannot actually find those late '90's/early 2000's Overland Models diesels that are valued as low as $285 now for sale anywhere at that price point. Anywhere they are for sale, the asking price is greater than that. The last runs of some models, which sold for full listed MSRP of $750 new several years ago, are now $1000, if you can even find them at all.
There are models I'd love to buy, right now, at the current estimated value of $285 to $400, almost down to Genesis or Genesis 2.0 prices, that I cannot find anywhere at any price. Guess others must want them too? ATSF stuff is relatively plentiful. BNSF stuff is just NOT.
MV lenses? I have a few. Good luck finding them in any plentiful quantity anywhere.
Aftermarket detail parts? Relatively few are readily available and the rest seem to be hard to find.
Lego needs to market the train line better in the states. Even shops that had a large selection of Lego products had little if anything from the train line up. That doesn't help sales in the states. Online is great and one can find most anything, but we still have plenty of folks that prefer to buy in person, so that avenue of sales still needs to be persued along with the online side. And yes, the newbies in the hobby will nolonger have the "Lionel set around the tree" memory in a few short years. Even Lionel needs to do a better job of marketing its sets, especially around the holidays. I would also gamble to say that Menards stocking trains thru the holidays has helped get some newbies into the hobby or rekindling memories that result in a vintage set coming out of the closet once again. Mike the Aspie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
I've always thought traditional Lego's were cool but I never had any as a kid but would have loved to have them at that age. OTOH, all the stuff in the last 25+ years where Lego has models of rockets, movie space ships and even trains, I have no interest in such "low resolution" minatures. My desire was always for more realism, not less. Blocky to me remind me of the early days of computer graphics - which looked like, well, crap.
ATLANTIC CENTRALNo offense, but way to much info.
Hmmmm. Really?
SeeYou190 Lego trains might be the last really good possible way to get children into the hobby. Everyone loves Lego train displays, and they run great. . . -Kevin .
Lego trains might be the last really good possible way to get children into the hobby. Everyone loves Lego train displays, and they run great.
.
-Kevin
They may well be, I will leave that task to others.
Sheldon
Living the dream.
I know alot about legos but that was a different time and you can buy legos cheap second hand or clearance. It is an interesting history going back way before my time, I think before WW2 in fact. Lots of knockoffs and fighting in the early days if I remember the story right. Accually the history of model railroading is quite a tale when read about the manufacturing and the rip offs. Talked to an old timer about Paige, a company by a guy who bought kits and detail parts and then cast his own, not to use but to sell on the open market. A bunch of manufactures banded together and sued him out of buissness. I love the ins and outs and intreige of buisness.
Travis,
No offense, but way to much info. I don't follow LEGO, I just read what I read on a news feed. Good or bad, they have only gotten a few hundred dollars from me.......
ATLANTIC CENTRAL SeeYou190 NittanyLion Building a model car or an Erector set ferris wheel is outright the same thing as the Legos. . LEGO has done an amazing job of staying relevent in the modern world. . -Kevin . Actually, LEGO sales are down, for the first time ever they have experianced negative sales growth over the last several years. While I do see the creativity in LEGO, I have always thought the cost was beyond the pale. Like everyone, we bought some for the kids (grand kids), but even the tech smart boy has since moved on to other interests. Sheldon
SeeYou190 NittanyLion Building a model car or an Erector set ferris wheel is outright the same thing as the Legos. . LEGO has done an amazing job of staying relevent in the modern world. . -Kevin .
NittanyLion Building a model car or an Erector set ferris wheel is outright the same thing as the Legos.
LEGO has done an amazing job of staying relevent in the modern world.
Actually, LEGO sales are down, for the first time ever they have experianced negative sales growth over the last several years.
While I do see the creativity in LEGO, I have always thought the cost was beyond the pale.
Like everyone, we bought some for the kids (grand kids), but even the tech smart boy has since moved on to other interests.
Look at my profile picture... Now let me tell you a few things...
The recent Lego sales slump is not the first time it happened, and actually is pretty expected considering that sales peaked in 2014-2015 around the release of the first LEGO Movie. The closing of Toys R Us in the USA also lead to another bit of loss of revenue (which hurt competitors Mattel and Hasbro far more than it hit Lego). The slump though is pretty minor though, stuff released only a year or two on the market is pretty rare to still find new in stores and costs an arm and a leg on the secondary market. Any collectible items (such as the recent Lego Disney Series 2 Collectible Minifigure line) see a rush to grab all the figures. High profile sets such as the Saturn V, UCS Millenium Falcon, and the recent Stranger Things set all draw in attention from people of various ages and manage to sell at prices comparable to the highest end items in the model railroad hobby. So while the market is down, its a pretty minor slump all things considered and is more a return to normal after that artifically inflated growth a few years back.
Now if you want to talk about a real Lego sales slump look at the company's years from 1999 to 2005 or so... Only a few themes were really keeping the company together, two licensed products Star Wars and Harry Potter (both which are still running to this day) and the in-house product line Bionicle (a 2001-2010, 2015-2016 fantasy/sci fi line similar to something like Transformers). Several very high profile themes flopped hard in that time, Galidor (a sci-fi action figure line and Lego's first attempt at a TV show) being the most notable. It took the hiring of new corporate heads and a new design staff to turn the slump around, and this article goes into more detail than I would ever care to so I recommend reading up on it: https://www.businessinsider.com/how-lego-made-a-huge-turnaround-2014-2 If you want a bit more of a deap dive into that era, here's an even longer piece on the subject: https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/innovation-almost-bankrupted-lego-until-it-rebuilt-with-a-better-blueprint/
Not to mention, that 1999-2005 era slump was Lego facing and answering the question of 'how to sell physical toys to children raised in the digital age?' all in an era when Amazon was still mostly focused on online book sales and eBay was just barely kicking off. Lego answered that question quite well, and for any model railroad group stumped on how to get younger people involved in the hobby a study of Lego's post-2005 methods is a great leason on how to reach out to the digital generation.
Now of course any complaint of Lego having to high of a price for entry ignores a lot about the model railroad hobby... A simple DC starter kit in model railroading is running for what, $80-$150 these days? Yes Lego has products in that range to, but lets also remember that Lego has some great low range stuff. I can easily go out right now and buy a Lego set in the $20-$30 range that is completely self contained, with two or three figures and a small scene or vehicle. A kid can recieve a small Lego set and have everything thing they need to start playing. There is no analog to that in our hobby since it takes $80 to get a low end train set, and that is ignoring the prices for lumber for benchwork, scenery, structures, DCC upgrades, etc. Yes Lego is selling products up to $800 in cost, but saying that is representative of the entire company line is like saying model railroading is only represented by Scale Trains Museum Line Gas Turbines and brass models of rare steam... There is a price range that allows for multiple points of entry for consumers with different budgets, and I dare say Lego has a much lower entry point than model railroading currently has.
On top of that... I can list a lot of model railroaders besides myself who seem to have a growing Lego collection on the side. Our own WP8thSub has a few Lego X-Wings and TIE-Fighters in the media room across from his layout, and I have had a few talks with Chris Brimley about his Lego collection to (the Lego city across the room from his layout is pretty impressive). Another local model railroader who isn't as well known outside of Utah, Parker Wilson also stocks quite a few Lego sets in his collection; while also almost single handedly spear heading the cosmetic restoration of an 0-6-0 in Heber, Utah the last few years. Trust me, there is a lot of overlap in these hobbies. While I had my ERTL Thomas train sets as a kid, it was Lego that kept me building and tinkering all the way from my childhood up through the present day. If I was a betting man I am willing to bet most kids now who will someday be a part of our hobby in years to come will not have memories of 'Lionel around the Christmas tree' but instead memories of trying to rebuild a Lego Ninjago set into a 'Ninja Train' on Christmas morning instead. I know I tried building a 2-8-0 using Bionicle spinners as wheels myself...
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Like everyone, we bought some for the kids (grand kids), but even the tech smart boy has since moved on to other interests.
I used to be really in to Legos, but a few years ago I realised that I had so many (wouldn't be surprised if I've got somewhere between 50 and 100 sets!) and stoped buying more because I already had enough to have fun with.
Also about the same time I began buying trains. My newest Lego set came over a year and a half ago, the same time I started buying trains! Now I spend my money on Trains and not Legos.
Maybe someday I'll build some Lego trains, I likely have a lot of the parts, but I really don't like how unrealistic they are compared to HO or N stuff, though I have seen some nice stuff. Legos do cost a lot and Lego trains certainly exceed HO/N trains.
This thread has gone on for a long time and gotten quite of topic!
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
NittanyLionBuilding a model car or an Erector set ferris wheel is outright the same thing as the Legos.
Good points everyone about the specialty stores- Hardware I think is coming back- as food for thought Ace had an initiative about ten years back that they were promoting as Ace the Hobby Place where they had an alliance with one of the hobby distributers. As for electronics I used to love frys and Micro Center when we lived there them- they always did good business but they were regional. Many mom and pop shops used to be in malls etc but got forced out by rents and major chains. I remember a lot of malls having locally owned hobby shops back in the 70's and 80's In the long run that was probably a mistake- a lot of malls could use mom and pops now to fill the space.
York1 How many kids today want parts to build a crystal radio, or glue to build a model car, or to take the time to build miniature motorized ferris wheels out of metal girders with screws and nuts? Unless it's not a Lego model or an electronic screen, there is very little market. Especially not enough to provide a specialty store owner a living.
How many kids today want parts to build a crystal radio, or glue to build a model car, or to take the time to build miniature motorized ferris wheels out of metal girders with screws and nuts? Unless it's not a Lego model or an electronic screen, there is very little market. Especially not enough to provide a specialty store owner a living.
On the other hand, why would I want to build a crystal radio in the first place, even if I was inclined towards an electronics project? I recently helped one of my nephews assemble a kit to build a line following, solar powered robot car that was about as complex as I remember crystal radios being.
Building a model car or an Erector set ferris wheel is outright the same thing as the Legos. They teach you own to follow a process using components to assemble a finished product and later how to develop the skill set to produce a new and unique product from raw components. I learned tons of things from Legos, like how joints must be staggered to prevent weak points or how cross-bracing works.
There is another thing impacting retail more than anyone has said, that is the Marie Kondo effect, much bigger than the internet but in effect the internet has made it possible. Marie is a writer from Japan who preaches de-clutering. This has spread faster and had more impact that most relize, especially among the young and it is not just her books but a whole generation that is going minimulist and declutering. One book by another author says to throw away one item per day pluss add an item each day till you get your world in order so on day two you would get rid of two items ect till day 30. Daughter did it three times and the stuff you get rid of can be anything, a recipt or a paper clip even. Now comes the second part which is if you don't need it now, get rid of it and if you need it later, just buy it then, you know with the internet, you can and the cost can be less as others join into this idea. I see storage places becoming indangered one day which is why they are already diversifying.
rrebellBestbuy could be a force in the electronic market
I wish Bestbuy would be an electronics store that would carry electronic supplies like an old Radio Shack. I know that Hobbytown now carries some Radio Shack materials, but it is just enough to fill one small section.
Of course, my wishes go against the fact that economics rules the market, and that there just isn't a big enough market for old style electronics stores, hobby shops, camera stores, or a myriad of other small specialty stores.
Caution: Old Grouchy Geezer alert! How many kids today want parts to build a crystal radio, or glue to build a model car, or to take the time to build miniature motorized ferris wheels out of metal girders with screws and nuts? Unless it's not a Lego model or an electronic screen, there is very little market. Especially not enough to provide a specialty store owner a living.
York1 John
clsanchez77The internet/globalization of just about everyting has destroyed the Local Fish Store. There are many of us who value the local experience, but not enough of us to keep it a sustainable business practice.
I think this is true of many small retail shops. Discount stores like Walmart carry enough stuff to take away a lot of sales from the small shop. Add the internet wih it's large selection and it's not surprising that small shops for trains, fish, whatever just can't make it. And unfortunately the discount stores don't carry a lot of things the small shops had. Even large store chains are having trouble. Retail is definitely changing.
I buy about 75% of my stuff online and probably another 20% at train shows. Not by choice, by necessity. The nearest hobby store with trains is a 45 minute drive and he carrys very little in trains - mostly R/C stuff.
Paul
Camera shops are gone for the most part, killed more by the smart phone than anything else. Electronic shops, mostly gone, bike shops are going (see that here now). But things do change, local hardware stores on the way back as people tire of the big box stores and their lack of people or info. Google can find most things but it can take skill and a weeding through all the opinions and mis information (one reason why the local hardware is coming back). Bestbuy could be a force in the electronic market but there Geeksquad can be a joke at times, people need reliable info.
clsanchez77 Hey folks. I am new to this forum as a member but I have been quietly lurking in the background for years. This topic was funny enough the one to finally convince me to join. I have not touched a model train in close to 25 years and its a hobby I have been long wanting to get back into. But specific to this topic, I have been into reef aquariums for close to 20 years and I am a moderater over at a local reef club website. We have this very same conversation on a regular basis. The internet/globalization of just about everyting has destroyed the Local Fish Store. There are many of us who value the local experience, but not enough of us to keep it a sustainable business practice. It is quite the shame because many people enter the hobby blind, which is not cheap, and then make countless mistakes, get frustrated and quit. Decades ago, fewer people entered the hobby, but the success rates were much faster. As far as the local hobby store goes. I now have 4 of my own kids, ages 4 to 11 and they can't do some of the things I did growing up (such as potato guns). However, there are some hands on hobbies I would love to see my boys get into and not having a hobby shop is a real deal killer. We have no hobby shops where I live and it makes it difficult to draw their interest (or the wife's) when they cannot touch and see the items first. Trains is defintely one of them and is something I am working on now...but access is an issue. Model cars is the other and there just is no where you can buy the supplies locally. Sure, a few corporate retailers have a few things, but no where the assortment I had at their age.
Hey folks. I am new to this forum as a member but I have been quietly lurking in the background for years. This topic was funny enough the one to finally convince me to join. I have not touched a model train in close to 25 years and its a hobby I have been long wanting to get back into.
But specific to this topic, I have been into reef aquariums for close to 20 years and I am a moderater over at a local reef club website. We have this very same conversation on a regular basis. The internet/globalization of just about everyting has destroyed the Local Fish Store. There are many of us who value the local experience, but not enough of us to keep it a sustainable business practice. It is quite the shame because many people enter the hobby blind, which is not cheap, and then make countless mistakes, get frustrated and quit. Decades ago, fewer people entered the hobby, but the success rates were much faster.
As far as the local hobby store goes. I now have 4 of my own kids, ages 4 to 11 and they can't do some of the things I did growing up (such as potato guns). However, there are some hands on hobbies I would love to see my boys get into and not having a hobby shop is a real deal killer. We have no hobby shops where I live and it makes it difficult to draw their interest (or the wife's) when they cannot touch and see the items first. Trains is defintely one of them and is something I am working on now...but access is an issue. Model cars is the other and there just is no where you can buy the supplies locally. Sure, a few corporate retailers have a few things, but no where the assortment I had at their age.
Interesting that you make the comment about the aquarium stores doing the same thing. It made me think about another thing in this regard that has gone away. Where I grew up- Stillwater, Oklahoma had a store called Aqua Mart. It was half aquarium store and half hobby shop. Model planes covered the ceiling and they carried some model railroad stuff but not a lot. Ironicaly their main competition was Hobby Lobby which at the time had a decent hobby area with tons of models, trains, and even R/C (I worked at Hobby Lobby in the 80's at this store- get this #5) I can think of other combination shops- there was a hobby shop/ camera store in Enid, I have seen some combination craft/ hobby shops and some hobby shop/ gift store combinations and a couple of toy store/ hobby shop combos. You don't see this as much anymore- some of it depends of the strength of the other part. If both are going down- ie the camera/ hobby shop you are in trouble.
clsanchez77It is quite the shame because many people enter the hobby blind, which is not cheap, and then make countless mistakes, get frustrated and quit.
to the Model Railroader forums. Your first few posts are delayed by the moderators, but please stick it otu and join our conversations.
I was really into fresh water tropcial fish twenty years ago, and you make an excellent point. The local aquarium shop was my resource to learning how to keep the tank working.
Didn't think of this angle. Only hobby that has any real stores are crafting places, even miniatures gaming stores are disapearing.
On one of our trips to visit the kids in Boston (we live in northern Indiana), I took my CFO on a detour to Baltimore to visit MB Klein, went north to Trainworld and Trainland in New York, and then hit AA Hobbies in Rhode Island. I think we’ve been to every train store of any significance between our home and beantown; I love that girl!
Ok I have to add this- in the 50's hobby shops were everywhere.......
My dad took this back in 1959 on a trip through California.
You know I just got thinking and calculating over the past twenty years I have been in over 100 hobby shops. A fair amount of those have closed over the years. Most of those that have closed were a result of retirement or health. One went through a fire and never really recovered. I can think of three that downsized themselves so much that it sunk them. Two went to strictly internet or train show. I have heard of a select few that run into rent increases or were forced to relocate. These same things have affected a lot of small businesses too.
Looking at this from the perspective as one who once managed a retail business there are often some different things that hobby shops do that are different than most retail. You want people to be able to shop- if they can not do so they won't buy. I have seen some that I wonder how they keep in business- Those are the ones I can't decide if it is a hobby shop with a hoarding problem or a hoarding problem with a hobby shop. Make stuff shopable. Similarly you want people to buy items- I have been a little surprised at some shops on the pricing for used stuff. $150 for an assembled Atlas roundhouse (and not the best job) really! Most retail will mark something down if it doesn't sell after a long time. Just some food for thought.
PRR8259 Well, my all time shipping damage or loss rate is still around 1% to 2%, not 0% as Sheldon has experienced, but for me the disturbing trend is this year, lately, it has definitely been a problem with multiple dealers shipping via USPS. I think there is still a place for the local train store, and they are not all just giving up and closing their doors. Instead they are adapting to compete the best they know how. Many have embraced internet sales; others are planning to do so. John
Well, my all time shipping damage or loss rate is still around 1% to 2%, not 0% as Sheldon has experienced, but for me the disturbing trend is this year, lately, it has definitely been a problem with multiple dealers shipping via USPS.
I think there is still a place for the local train store, and they are not all just giving up and closing their doors. Instead they are adapting to compete the best they know how. Many have embraced internet sales; others are planning to do so.
John
If I could drive less than 20 minutes to a reasonablely stocked train store, willing to order stuff promptly at moderately competitive prices, I would be all in.
That store does not exist near me. It does exist an hour, two hours from me. And when I can, I visit those shops.
At one time, back in the late 60's, 70's and into the 80's, here in the central Maryland/Baltimore area, there were easily over a dozen good hobby shops/train stores.
Today, only three or four remain in the similar area.
And, for the most part, after 50 years at this, the only "service" I need is selection and price.......
The last time this topic came up, I think it was Howard Zane, I renewed my offer to run the mega store if suitable investors stepped forward - I did not get any calls or e-mails..........
BRAKIERuss,I had made plans to railfan the Canton area and stop at Rob's but, my health went South so,I didn't make that trip.
If you ever come this way, let me know and we can get together. Coffee's on me.
Russ
Modeling the early '50s Erie in Paterson, NJ. Here's the link to my railroad postcard collection: https://railroadpostcards.blogspot.com/
Erie1951 emdmike I will have to remember that shop Russ, that is one highlight to these types of threads, they highlight the remaining shops, which ones are good and those that are not so much. Mike...I live right outside of Canton, so it's worth the trip. I already have a shopping list together. Here's the website: http://www.robstrains.com/
emdmike I will have to remember that shop Russ, that is one highlight to these types of threads, they highlight the remaining shops, which ones are good and those that are not so much.
Mike...I live right outside of Canton, so it's worth the trip. I already have a shopping list together. Here's the website:
http://www.robstrains.com/
Russ,I had made plans to railfan the Canton area and stop at Rob's but, my health went South so,I didn't make that trip.
I will check his web site.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
PRR8259 Well, my USPS boxes have clearly also been thrown, if not by the driver then by others.
Well, my USPS boxes have clearly also been thrown, if not by the driver then by others.
John,USPS uses DHL as a contract carrier and I'm not sure how rough they handle packages. Hopefully not as bad as UPS.
But,this I know. I bought two used P2K SCL Geeps( GP9/18) from a shop in Florida and DHL handle the bulk of the transportation and they arrived in perfect condition even though the shipper used air bags.
I will mention this on the down side.I bought some back issues of Trains and Railfan Magazines and the mailing envelope looked like it was used as a hocky puck.
emdmikeI will have to remember that shop Russ, that is one highlight to these types of threads, they highlight the remaining shops, which ones are good and those that are not so much.
SeeYou190 BRAKIE John,I don't worry about USPS as much as I do UPS when it comes to handling packages. I witness one driver tossing one of my packages from the sidewalk to my front porch around 10'.. I'm yet to see a mailman do that. . UPS and FedEx are private companies that exist based on efficiency and productivity. They do not take great care with the packages because that costs time and money. . The USPS is more or less a public service, and I get much better service with USPS. . If you need something delivered on time, FedEx is the best option. The USPS will give the best service. UPS is the least expensive if you ship a lot of packages, and they handle larger boxes better than FedEx. . -Kevin .
BRAKIE John,I don't worry about USPS as much as I do UPS when it comes to handling packages. I witness one driver tossing one of my packages from the sidewalk to my front porch around 10'.. I'm yet to see a mailman do that.
UPS and FedEx are private companies that exist based on efficiency and productivity. They do not take great care with the packages because that costs time and money.
The USPS is more or less a public service, and I get much better service with USPS.
If you need something delivered on time, FedEx is the best option. The USPS will give the best service. UPS is the least expensive if you ship a lot of packages, and they handle larger boxes better than FedEx.
But the walk-in, one package rates at UPS are outrageous, brown lost all my business years ago.......
I will have to remember that shop Russ, that is one highlight to these types of threads, they highlight the remaining shops, which ones are good and those that are not so much. Mike
Not all hobby shops are dead and gone, as others have mentioned. There's a good one, Rob's Trains, in Alliance, Ohio that's about a forty minutes drive from me and I've never been there. I looked at the website and the shop photos show racks of detail parts, kits, RTR, track supplies, you name it. They're also a DCC dealer, so that adds to their credibility as a good shop. Trip planned, credit card at the ready!
I by no means bash others memories, on the contrary, I enjoy reading about them, many times about the same shops I visited when I was a young boy. We have lost many here in Indiana that I can remember. Casey Jones Trains in Indianapolis, Train Express, Big Four Hobbies, Watts Train Shop and many others. I remember the display case with the "golden" brass trains, the isle of Athearn and MDC kits where I spent most of my money after drooling over the brass stuff. Now as an adult, most all of my train funds are spent on those brass trains I wanted as a kid. Most of them in green boxes that say Overland Models Inc on them. Followed by older craftsman type freight cars to pass the long winter hours when I am not at work. The online shopping craze, combined with many of the "active" modeling generation working more than one job, along with family duties that curtail the free time to travel to a LHS, is to me one of the major issues affecting retail in general. Not just trains or hobbies in general, but all levels of retail. All of the malls where I live are struggling and trying to find ways to entice more stores to open. But the reborn and restored downtown areas seem to be thriving in my area. While we can lament the passing of so many shops, its a great time to be buying, prices are lower on many items(older stuff and brass) and the options for where to buy are greater for those that buy online, along with shows and at the shops that remain. Mike the Aspie
As a side note, I would have been even more successful, money wise (I did fine) if I had followed all the best practices I learned over the years about buisness but one says to themselves they can slide on this or that and those things do add up over time. I admit it is hard to stay on course but that is why there are different levels of success in buisness and it is nerve racking at time risking it all for the next move up knowing it could all fall apart through your mistake or things beyond your control.
John-NYBW I don't follow these forums on a regular basis and I know I'm joining this discussion late but I'll throw my two cents in anyway. As long as I have been a member here, it seems that on a regular basis someone is lamenting about the demise of the LHS. There is no doubt that much of consumer commerce is moving away from brick and mortar stores to online buying but that doesn't mean the end of traditional stores. To be sure some are going out of business either because of financial difficulties or retirements of the owners but others are still thriving. On the north side of Columbus, OH I know of four hobby shops and I could walk to all four in about 15 minutes. Three are well established and seem to be doing quite well. The fourth I'm not so sure about but even the three thriving ones show there is still a place for traditional retailers. How long will these stores continue to be around. Who knows? Nothing lasts forever. Sears at one time was the Amazon of their day. Now they are in their death throes. All I can say is that for the foreseeable future there will still be a place for traditional retailing because they can offer service that is difficult for the e-tailers to match.
I don't follow these forums on a regular basis and I know I'm joining this discussion late but I'll throw my two cents in anyway. As long as I have been a member here, it seems that on a regular basis someone is lamenting about the demise of the LHS. There is no doubt that much of consumer commerce is moving away from brick and mortar stores to online buying but that doesn't mean the end of traditional stores. To be sure some are going out of business either because of financial difficulties or retirements of the owners but others are still thriving. On the north side of Columbus, OH I know of four hobby shops and I could walk to all four in about 15 minutes. Three are well established and seem to be doing quite well. The fourth I'm not so sure about but even the three thriving ones show there is still a place for traditional retailers. How long will these stores continue to be around. Who knows? Nothing lasts forever. Sears at one time was the Amazon of their day. Now they are in their death throes. All I can say is that for the foreseeable future there will still be a place for traditional retailing because they can offer service that is difficult for the e-tailers to match.
BRAKIEJohn,I don't worry about USPS as much as I do UPS when it comes to handling packages. I witness one driver tossing one of my packages from the sidewalk to my front porch around 10'.. I'm yet to see a mailman do that.
PRR8259Sheldon has experienced, but for me the disturbing trend is this year, lately, it has definitely been a problem with multiple dealers shipping via USPS.
John,I don't worry about USPS as much as I do UPS when it comes to handling packages.
I witness one driver tossing one of my packages from the sidewalk to my front porch around 10'.. I'm yet to see a mailman do that.
Thankfully there was nothing breakable in that box.
I have not purchased much in the way of model trains recently, thru the mail or in person. I have most of what I want or need, a list that does not change on a whim......
BUT, historically I have purchased hundreds, possibly thousands, of model train items, and lots of other stuff from all manner of online/mail order suppliers.
My recent mail order purchases of all types include a lot from AMAZON and some from Ebay.
My damage rate has been virtually zero for the last 20 years.
In 20 years I can only recall one model train being damaged in the mail, and that was so minor I was able to fix it myself.
An Intermountain F unit came with a damaged coupler box from an Ebay vender. It had clearly slid in the box crushing the coupler and damaging the coupler box. There was no other damage to the model. The accessory pack of coupler lift bars was also missing from the box.
Even after explaining that the item was purchased used/NOS from an Ebay vendor, the nice people at Intermountain supplied the needed parts at no charge.
All the other hundreds of model train items I have purchased thru the mail have arrived safe and sound.
For a number of years I sold custom tractor parts for classic GRAVELY tractors on Ebay. In hundreds of transactions, only once was anything lost or damaged by my preferred shipper, the USPS.
I have had the most trouble with UPS and large heavy items (like ready to assemble kitchen cabinets) with which they refuse to use enough care in handling.
I have only shipped about a dozen model train items myself, not being one to buy and then resell, I have only ever sold off a few items I later deemed unacceptable or unwanted.
I packed them well, but not "extremely over the top", They all reached their destinations unharmed, carried by the USPS........
MBK did tell me that they were abandoning styofoam peanuts to comply with a Maryland state law (at least perceived soon to be passed if not already on the books). I complained about the lack of styrofoam peanuts. The air bags did nothing to stop the Athearn box from moving around inside the larger shipping box. The diesel pilot was damaged and pilot handrails were clearly broken loose.
IRONROOSTER PRR8259 My last MBK order arrived exceedingly poorly packed, and I complained heatedly to the store management about it. They said they were changing to more environmentally friendly packaging to comply with Md state law. Just curious, was your stuff damaged? Paul
PRR8259 My last MBK order arrived exceedingly poorly packed, and I complained heatedly to the store management about it. They said they were changing to more environmentally friendly packaging to comply with Md state law.
Just curious, was your stuff damaged?
Yes, sir, the locomotive was damaged.
Forgive me for the direction of the topic. However, to my mind, there is indeed a logical connection between poor mail order shipping/package safety/costs and shopping/finding/buying items at the local train store. For me, severe issues with mail order items being damaged this year have pushed me further toward the local train stores, when previously my direction was otherwise.
As always, others are free to hold their own opinion, and I don't have a monopoly on truth. YMMV.
Respectfully submitted--
accually I am pleased with the way this thread has progressed, very good give and take and the overseers have not once stepped in, which considering the topic can sometimes be a hot button for some people. Look forward to how it progresses from here.
gmpullmanOK, I'll step back. Thank you, Ed
Not malarky from you!
I was talking about the excuse that they could not provide adequate packing due to Maryland statute.
I need to figure out a way to type without offending my forum mates.
PRR8259...Often I do get to stop at English's. They have customers that come all the way from Canada: 3 hours away, 6 hours away, sometimes farther, to shop at their store....
I'm one of those Ca-knuckleheads who make that trip, but usually only once or twice a year.
However, I first drive to Ohio, to visit a fellow model railroader and railfan, and a very good friend. That's roughly 4 hrs/255 miles. After 3 or 4 days there, I'm off to Montoursville, about 4hrs/245miles. I usually spend several hours browsing the store's vast inventory, chatting with the staff or other customers, and filling my list of things to buy.
Then it's off to home, another 4hrs/250miles. I hadn't realised, until looking up the distances on-line for this post, how similar they were between destinations.
PRR8259....Apparently train stores in Canada have always been few and far between, going back many years now....
Until fairly recently, there were two which I frequented. One was about 15-20 minutes away, a large store mostly devoted to model railroading, but they had a good selection of plastic models (cars, 'planes, boats) and also RC stuff. In the basement was mostly O and G scale stuff. Adjoining, and open to the modelling side of things, there was an affiliated craft store of the same size.
Upstairs was the HO scale layout of a local club. This store was fairly close to the border, and many customers would come from the Buffalo and Niagara Falls, NY area. Several years ago, the owner retired, and the store passed to his son, who....well, I don't need to go into detail about why the store closed only a year or so later.
While the original owner of that store was still in charge of things, a small model railroad store opened up here, in-town, about a ten minute drive for me. While it didn't have a great deal of inventory, the owner could get what I wanted fairly quickly and at reasonable prices. A couple of years later, he moved out of town to a larger store, this one in the opposite direction, but only 5 minutes away. By that time, there wasn't much I needed in the way of r-t-r or even kits, but I did buy a fair amount of detail parts and modelling supplies, especially styrene. The one thing that both of these stores had and which I miss the most, was their selection of pre-owned stuff, whether it was n-i-b kits, or kits partially (or poorly) assembled, or even damaged items, most of it was at especially affordable prices.
Last year, the owner decided to wrap it up, partially due to health reasons, and partly due to the growth of on-line shopping. I do miss both stores and the people who ran them, and also the modellers who frequented them. My "local" store is now about 45 minutes away (when the traffic's not too bad), and I usually don't make the trip unless I have either a shopping list or need of an item for an in-progress project.
I do buy stuff on-line, usually from dealers or manufacturers, but since most of it comes from the States, I have it sent to my friend in Ohio, as I usually visit there several times every year. Shipping from the U.S. to Canada is expensive, and while there's no longer duty on model railroading stuff, the "handling fees" can be onerous, and some items may be subject to Canadian sales tax.
Wayne
SeeYou190I am sensing malarky here.
OK, I'll step back.
https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/environment/bs-md-foam-ban-20190411-story.html
Thank you, Ed
gmpullmanAs long as those horsefeathers aren't in a styrofoam container (or peanuts)
Well if that is all it is, then the air-pillow machine is a quick, easy, and money saving option.
I am sensing malarky here.
gmpullmanPersonally, I won't miss the boxes I get from MB Klein full of peanuts.
Nor will I. I never did like shipping peanuts since they can become a mess on the floor if one is not careful while removing the items inside the box.
Mistaken reply.
Regards, Ed
PRR8259They said they were changing to more environmentally friendly packaging to comply with Md state law.
I hope they did not really say that because it would be a 100% horse-feathers excuse.
There is a good machine that we use in shipping/receiving that turns your old incoming packages, office waste, and other "trash" into good packing material. That is an easy way to be compliant and still assure customer satisfaction.
Machines that make air bags on site are also a good option. Not sure what Maryland statute they are refering to, but there is surely an easy solution available.
If this is true, and they do not straighten up their act, the door is open for competition. This is certainly a weakness.
richhotrainNonsense! The demise of the local hobby shop and the advent of shipping problems with Internet sellers go hand in hand.
Not saying they do not go hand-in-hand with one another... just that I would not have predicted this turn in the conversation.
Anyway... My turn to join in... The worst packing I have had was when I bought an Oriental Powerhouse 2-8-2 from an eBay seller about 5 years ago. At this time brass prices were still quite high, and I paid around $200.00 for the Powerhouse hybrid. Now I can get a Sunset brass 2-8-2 for under 200.00, but on with the story.
The seller crumpled up a couple of newspapers and put the locomotive in its original box into a big box and shipped it.
There is a celophane window on the front of the Powerhouse boxes. During shipping the window broke, and the locomotive came out of its box and bounced around the big box for who knows how long.
The only damage were a couple of bent brass rods. The locomotive still ran (and still does run) fine.
Yes, stuff my wife orders from Amazon is getting packaged worse and worse.
Brasstrains dot com packs better than anyone. I think you could use a box packed by these guys as the ball in a rugby match, and the contents would be just fine.
PRR8259My last MBK order arrived exceedingly poorly packed, and I complained heatedly to the store management about it. They said they were changing to more environmentally friendly packaging to comply with Md state law.
mbinsewi Wellllll....excussssssssse me! I'm just a bystander, pay no attention to me Besides, it's pm nap time, then Saturday night cocktail time. Ramble on as you wish. Mike.
Wellllll....excussssssssse me! I'm just a bystander, pay no attention to me
Besides, it's pm nap time, then Saturday night cocktail time. Ramble on as you wish.
Mike.
Rich
Alton Junction
My You Tube
SeeYou190 mbinsewi I'll be darned. From hobby shop demise to shipping and packaging problems. Yeah, I would have been very wrong with my prediction for where this thread would end up.. -Kevin
mbinsewi I'll be darned. From hobby shop demise to shipping and packaging problems.
Yeah, I would have been very wrong with my prediction for where this thread would end up..
mbinsewiI'll be darned. From hobby shop demise to shipping and packaging problems
Yeah, I would have been very wrong with my prediction for where this thread would end up.
I'll be darned. From hobby shop demise to shipping and packaging problems.
My last MBK order arrived exceedingly poorly packed, and I complained heatedly to the store management about it. They said they were changing to more environmentally friendly packaging to comply with Md state law. Understood. Fine, I can shop elsewhere.
I just ordered a brass diesel from Overland Hobbies. They suggested UPS as in their experience UPS lately has done better for the more expensive items. Shipping was actually pretty affordable. The item was overpacked just as they are expected to be for that kind of item, and arrived quickly in perfect condition. At that rate Overland Hobbies gets my future business, whenever possible.
As always, your mileage may vary.
Rairly have a problem with shipping and never with train stuff. Most of the stuff I get is over protected. Worst problem I ever had with train stuff was back in the mail order days, stuff never came, guy then went to jail for postal fraud.
I have never had a problem ordering ordering from MBK. They do offer a variety of shipping options and maybe an upgrade is needed for some areas.
With Amazon, you have to watch who actually is shipping the item. I think most trains are actually not shipped by Amazon just sold through their site.
The packaging issue brings up a fair point! I’ve seen a lot of stuff from Amazon come in boxes that are much bigger than the product, leaving way too much room for it to jiggle around and break! I’ve heard this is caused by pressure on the employees to get the package out on time so it makes the three day delivery (which let’s be honest, is amazing and insane!) Amazon promises.
If you ask me I would rather wait an extra work day for my package then have it arrive broken. Especially if it’s train stuff!
I would agree with others that it’s worth the extra money to give business to your LHS than order online. You could also give smaller, more local hobby shops business by ordering from them instead of a big online retailer.
I would prefer to order from a smaller, local hobby shop than a big online hobby retailer just because the relationship between seller and coustomer is that much more personal, which will generally lead to better service. Also smaller hobby shop owners are also often in the hobby themselves, so understand how fragile stuff is and will take the time to give it some good packaging so it will arrive in one piece!
PRR8259 As I said, a number of my packages (from multiple shippers) have been damaged this year. The "local" stores that remain are looking pretty darn good. John
As I said, a number of my packages (from multiple shippers) have been damaged this year. The "local" stores that remain are looking pretty darn good.
USPS has become notorious in our house for packages that simply disappear or sit in cyberspace for weeks at a time.
Amazon has been shipping items with no cardboard boxes to protect them. For example, my wife has twice ordered and returned a bathroom rug that arrives filthy in nothing more that a clear plastic bag with holes in it.
I get model railroading items in a cardboard box with no insulation whatsoever. Sometimes, it is a piece of crumpled brown paper which offers no protection.
John,Indeed we are not getting into any type of contest.. So far I been lucky and haven't received any damage packages from MBK or e-Bay.
I worry every time a package comes by UPS though..
Be that as it may.
I would happily shop at a LHS if I had one since my not so young body no longer likes long trips like it did three years ago.
Larry--
Not trying to get into a ... contest.
I used to sit at home and order from MBK, also. Now I literally can't even be sure that an order from them will arrive intact and undamaged. I just do not want to deal with them anymore. Although one can and will receive a refund from MBK, my last experience was...unsatisfactory. To be "fair" to MBK, the USPS shipping performance for the 70 miles or so from MBK to me has been slow, and most unsatisfactory. They have even temporarily "lost" packages for a period of days on more than one occasion, in Baltimore or wherever that shipping center actually is. According to the tracking information, the packages sat still and went absolutely nowhere for days, but were somewhere inside the shipping center or hub. Given the issues experienced with both USPS and MBK, I have stopped ordering.
We all have choices to make. I don't mind paying slightly more, ie less discount, if it keeps the "local" train stores in business for a future day.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd by contrast, I'm very glad I had my kids at a young age. I had all three before I was 29..
I did the exact same thing. I would not change this at all. Having the babies young worked out fantastic!
riogrande5761Fake record. Disqualified since it was a long distance vacation
OK, I will drive to Atlanta just to make a stop at Riverdale Station, 600 miles away.
I also routinely drive to Georgia just to get barbecue. I'll drive to Jacksonville for a steak.
BRAKIE PRR8259 I find complaints about drive time to be, in some cases, ridiculous: we do the things we find to be important. In my case health issues aside I'll give you a run down. Gas $25.00 Yes,my '97 Jeep will make a 130 mile run trip on $25.00 worth of regular. Breakfast before I leave town -meaning do I really wanna waste travel time cooking breakfast and doing dishes when I can grab two donuts and be good for hours and have no need for lunch? At the hobby shop 10% off . Two Atlas freight cars still cost between $60-70.00.Odds and ends and nice to haves around $50.00. Free of charge wear and tear on the nerves-Columbus traffic. Not free of charge is unnecessary wear and tear on my Jeep and not to mention the wear and tear on my not as young as I use to be body.. OTOH I can sit down with a hot cup of coffee and shop at MBK and get everything on my list and the mail man will drop it off in three or four days..
PRR8259 I find complaints about drive time to be, in some cases, ridiculous: we do the things we find to be important.
In my case health issues aside I'll give you a run down.
Gas $25.00 Yes,my '97 Jeep will make a 130 mile run trip on $25.00 worth of regular.
Breakfast before I leave town -meaning do I really wanna waste travel time cooking breakfast and doing dishes when I can grab two donuts and be good for hours and have no need for lunch?
At the hobby shop
10% off . Two Atlas freight cars still cost between $60-70.00.Odds and ends and nice to haves around $50.00.
Free of charge wear and tear on the nerves-Columbus traffic.
Not free of charge is unnecessary wear and tear on my Jeep and not to mention the wear and tear on my not as young as I use to be body..
OTOH I can sit down with a hot cup of coffee and shop at MBK and get everything on my list and the mail man will drop it off in three or four days..
After a 45-year hiatus from the hobby, having had American Flyer trains as a kid, I paid a visit to my LHS and got the bug. Fifteen years later, the LHS is long gone and I shop the Internet as I build my 3rd layout.
If I had not visited that LHS in early 2004 and, instead, started out today, I wouldn't be in the hobby because I wouldn't know where to start, where to get advice. It was my LHS guys who got me started, helped me along, referred me to this forum, and provided for all my needs. I would have none of that if I started out today.
That is one reason why I think that the hobby is shrinking because it is not conducive to newcomers, at least not like it was 15 years ago when the LHS was still around in great numbers.
PRR8259I find complaints about drive time to be, in some cases, ridiculous: we do the things we find to be important.
BTW..I was a railroader so,my wife attended all my son's ball games.
I'm not into spots nor driving over 30 miles to a train show.Exception being the Berea show and the Dalton show.
SPSOT fan ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well I will claim the prize for shortest trip to the LHS for the most number of years. My local train store is just 8 houses down the block, about 3/10 of a mile, from my old house I just moved from. I lived about 2 blocks from my LHS for a year last year, but I can’t win both longest and shortest! 8 house beats 2 blocks, I envy you!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well I will claim the prize for shortest trip to the LHS for the most number of years. My local train store is just 8 houses down the block, about 3/10 of a mile, from my old house I just moved from.
Well I will claim the prize for shortest trip to the LHS for the most number of years. My local train store is just 8 houses down the block, about 3/10 of a mile, from my old house I just moved from.
I lived about 2 blocks from my LHS for a year last year, but I can’t win both longest and shortest! 8 house beats 2 blocks, I envy you!
I intended to mention that I lived there for 23 years. The train shop is still there, but the owner is working on his escape plan to retire soon.
I moved about 15 miles up the road from the old house.
riogrande5761 SeeYou190 I am going to claim the unofficial World Record for longest drive to visit a hobby shop! -Kevin Fake record. Disqualified since it was a long distance vacation , and you had tons of time to burn most of us working stiffs can't manage, so I call shens. Not a level playing field.
SeeYou190 I am going to claim the unofficial World Record for longest drive to visit a hobby shop! -Kevin
I am going to claim the unofficial World Record for longest drive to visit a hobby shop!
Fake record. Disqualified since it was a long distance vacation , and you had tons of time to burn most of us working stiffs can't manage, so I call shens. Not a level playing field.
Well I have visited hobby shops in Germany, Switzerland, England and Sydney, Brisbane and a few other places. How does that fit into the picture. I did not drive the plane even though I have my pilots license.
I will admit they weren't destinations as I just happened upon them. They sure had some interesting out of production items on the shelves.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
PRR8259 I find complaints about drive time to be, in some cases, ridiculous: we do the things we find to be important. Excepting those who may have a health issue such that they cannot travel, others of us drive long distances routinely for kid's sports, music lessons, and yes, to visit train stores.
I find complaints about drive time to be, in some cases, ridiculous: we do the things we find to be important. Excepting those who may have a health issue such that they cannot travel, others of us drive long distances routinely for kid's sports, music lessons, and yes, to visit train stores.
It's all relative. Some people who drive 20 minutes to work think it's a long commute. In the Washington DC area, an 60 minute commute is not unusual and some commute double that, each way.
People will find whatever annoys them to complain about but they do whatever suites them, as you noted - sports, music, whatever.
rrebell IRONROOSTER rrebell most people are not willing to put in the work or make the sacrifices necisary to succeed, long hours, long weeks and you don't always get paid even if you run the place. Lets face it, most people just cannot cut it. "long hours, long weeks and you don't always get paid" - now who wouldn't jump at a job like that Paul Thats how I retired the first time at 29, second at 52 (kids and wife cost money).
IRONROOSTER rrebell most people are not willing to put in the work or make the sacrifices necisary to succeed, long hours, long weeks and you don't always get paid even if you run the place. Lets face it, most people just cannot cut it. "long hours, long weeks and you don't always get paid" - now who wouldn't jump at a job like that Paul
rrebell most people are not willing to put in the work or make the sacrifices necisary to succeed, long hours, long weeks and you don't always get paid even if you run the place. Lets face it, most people just cannot cut it.
"long hours, long weeks and you don't always get paid" - now who wouldn't jump at a job like that
Thats how I retired the first time at 29, second at 52 (kids and wife cost money).
And by contrast, I'm very glad I had my kids at a young age. I had all three before I was 29.......
Hi Sheldon, and all--
I'm not trying to be snippy so don't take anything that way. The one train store I referred to above is 1.5 hours from me, 89 miles. I routinely drive that far just for baseball lessons, and return, without even visiting the in-laws or doing anything else. Often I do get to stop at English's. They have customers that come all the way from Canada: 3 hours away, 6 hours away, sometimes farther, to shop at their store. Apparently train stores in Canada have always been few and far between, going back many years now.
My kids school sporting events and local little league events--not the travel baseball--routinely have games that require 1 hour drive time one way. We are in a rural county, and yet I live 15 minutes, literally, from the state capitol building. You were fortunate if your children's games were within 30 or 35 minutes drive. Here in South Central PA, it can easily be longer than that.
I have had 4 items damaged in shipping this year, to/from 4 different places. One I packed exceptionally well, and USPS destroyed the engine (was returning it defective/not quite as advertised). So I don't like to get packages if/when I can get there in person to pick up items.
I have even delivered Ebay purchases in person rather than shipping them to the winner. Got to meet noted rail author Jeremy Plant that way, and other interesting people as well, and to see their layouts, all of which has been amazing.
So my point is if it is "important enough" to you, one typically finds a way to get there. Packages anymore are a crap shoot.
Also, after having dabbled in many different contemporary current day plastic diesels, and having just acquired a much better job, I can now dabble a little bit in brass too. I have one OMI diesel so far...but that's a whole other discussion.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI will claim the prize for shortest trip to the LHS for the most number of years. My local train store is just 8 houses down the block
That must have been great.
I used to live three houses from a neighborhood bar and grille that made the best nachos. That was also great.
Then after a few years they started focussing more on the "bar" and less on the "grille", and the demise rolled on from there.
I guess we could have a big discussion in the diner about the demise of the local neighborhood bar and grille. I am sure there is some emotion around them too.
Not a big place, or much on the shelves, but he would order whatever I needed.
In Northern VA, plenty told me about Grandday's Hobby. It was a mecca for a lot of of folks. Rinse and repeat across the country. I've seen plenty move away from brick and mortar to online shops.
The expertise alone is often worth more than convenience of buying stuff in store. Getting sage advice is invaluable regardless of where it happens. I can't tell you the value of having someone come over and offer suggestions on the layout. Having a 2nd set of eyes/ears/hands has solved many problems.
SPSOT fan I live overseas we’re the model train hobby does not exist,
I'll leave that one alone, and see what responses you get.
SeeYou190 I am going to claim the unofficial World Record for longest drive to visit a hobby shop!
And how far exactly was this? Are you talking about your recent Florida-Wst Coast trip?
I may be able to claim the longest distance traveled not exclusively by car! I live overseas we’re the model train hobby does not exist, so I hold all my train needs for when I go back to the US for the summer. I bet I beat you if we include flying. Distance from the place I currently live to my favorite hobby shop in the states is over 10,000 miles!
PRR8259 others of us drive long distances routinely for kid's sports, music lessons, and yes, to visit train stores.
Please submit any challenges.
In this day and age......exactly!
Well, everyone has their own idea of what constitues a "long drive", but I personally have never transported and children, or grand children farther than about 35 minutes on a regular basis to their activities.
And I am the parent of three, step parent of three, and grandparent of eight........
Agreed, we all do what we think is important..........
With my rural upbringing, 35 minutes is not a long drive. But a train store would have to be really good to get me to drive more than 35-45 minutes one way on any kind of "regular" basis. Over an hour one way, not happening very often.
Every now and then, or when I am traveling in a direction for other reasons, sure.
But train stores need regular customers, who consider them their primary source to survive, not just occasional passers-by, even if they do make the occasional long trip to make a few large purchases.
Example - Mainline Hobby and Gilbert's are nearly two hours away. I never just jump in the car and make the five hour round trip on a whim.....
Strasburg is only an hour away, but that shop is not good enough to draw me there on a regular basis either. Sure, I stop in when I go to ride/see the trains, usually as often as 3-4 times a year. But I seldom find much I want in that shop.....
And I like simply getting packages in the mail.......Trainworld, Kleins, and others are only a day or shipping to my house.
rrebellmost people are not willing to put in the work or make the sacrifices necisary to succeed, long hours, long weeks and you don't always get paid even if you run the place. Lets face it, most people just cannot cut it.
Wasn't in the hobby store buissness but family owned a bowling center. But that is not where I learned about buisness, it is one of the few things I learned in school. Was in a private school because I did so bad in regular school. One class was all about buisness and accounting, first thing I did was start a buissness near the end of college. It is not that you can't make a good living at hobby shop owning but that most people don't know what they are doing, they just have a passion. Also most people are not willing to put in the work or make the sacrifices necisary to succeed, long hours, long weeks and you don't always get paid even if you run the place. Lets face it, most people just cannot cut it.
PRR8259I find complaints about drive time to be, in some cases, ridiculous:
Looks like you've shortened this alot since I first read it, about 5 minutes ago!
I guess I'm sort of lucky, being about 40 miles from the metro-Milwaukee / Waukesha area, here in SE. WI.
It's about 32 miles to my go-to shop, Hiawatha Hobbies, who carries everything, in all scales, along with R/C and even doll houses, and about 42 miles from Walthers Terminal Hobby Shop.
I have nothing else to add to the "demise of the LHS", but I really think Sheldon said it all.
Now, I'm going to check out Ebay, as I'm watching a couple of things, I can't get at either of my LHS's
OK, I've been watching to see where this would go........
Having worked in this business for about a decade when I was young, and having been self employed in other businesses most of my life after that, I have a few thoughts.
First, we could see the demise of the small local shop coming back in 1978. The shop owner I worked for tried to put together investors for a "Mega Store" which would have included discount prices and mail order (remember those days before the internet?).
Discounting by a few large stores and mail order houses was already hurting small local shops then.
AND, model trains, R/C planes, cars and boats, plastic models, were all on the cusp of the great advancements in product design and selection we enjoy now.
YES, we could see it coming, too much product for a small store to be representitive, too much pressure for lower prices, and back then, still a reasonable demand for good customer service.
So we figured a mega store, think a retail space the size of a small grocery store with a similar sized warehouse space, which could buy nearly everything direct from the manufacturers, and sell mail order to support the volume, could provide a large selection, still have that traditional over the counter service, and have competitive prices - it just takes money, big piles of it, to start something like that even from an exsisting successful smaller shop.
Had that plan come together, and been successful, my whole life may have been different - I was already the train department manager in the shop.......... I was only 21.......
Over the next 10 years that shop had to re-invent itself several times until the owner simply decided to do something else. He is still one of my dearest and closest friends and a very avid R/C airplane modeler.
So the modern shift to internet sales in all retail catagories is just like the last nail in the coffin making running a model train shop a tough way to make a living.
To qoute another retired train shop owner I know, "How do you make a small fortune in the hobby business? - Start with a large fortune!"
Truth be told, even back in the day, a fair percentage of hobby shop/model train shop owners where people with unusual personal situations that allowed them the luxury of being successful in this business.
For example - it is easier to get started if your father already has a successful retail business of a different type and lets you "piggyback" your train business in one corner of his shop. And then when he retires you inherit a paid for building to run your model train shop from.......
That is not to take anything away from the hard work and skill it took to build that business, it just points out that you don't just go to the bank and say "I want to open a model train store" and borrow a big pile of money and in five years you are TRAINWORLD or MB KLEIN.
Others had investment income, family money, real estate holdings, etc, such that the hobby store needed only to "not loose money", or even be a paper loss to offset other income on tax day.
But people, and banks, think differently about a lot of that kind of stuff today. So the choices people make regarding their time and money are different now.
Time marches on....
Even with my fond memories of working behind the hobby shop counter, I have to say, I really like www.sendittomenow.com
There is no going back, the world has forever changed from those days.....
Decades ago, Model Railroader ran an interview with hobby shop owner(s), mainly because so many of us MRs thought that we would be in "hog heaven" to own one.
Well, that interview brought out a lot of the downsides of not only owning a hobby shop, but also of owning your own business. Having grown up in a "Mom & Pop" business, and ultimately being a business analyst, I found the article extremely interesting and candid.
I believe the article, written perhaps in the mid '80s (?), would still be relevent today - except for one big difference. Back then, "hobbyists" and "do it yourselfers" were everywhere. Who didn't have a hobby back then?
But today, excluding hand held devices, hobbyists are significantly less in number. And speaking for my area (north of Houston), "do it yourselfers" are few and far between.
The monthly "nut" of having your own business in a brick/mortar store is unbelieveable! Those fixed costs are always there.
Had a slow month? Had to close the store a few days because of illness or vacation? Your clerks didn't show up for work and you had to shut down early? You got robbed/burglarized?
Folks, it just doesn't matter......the monthly rent/mortgage still must be paid, utilities and insurance must be paid, salaries are due, and Walthers (or Horizon) must have their bills paid too.
Is there anything left over for the owner??? Oops, I forgot, what about taxes???
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
SeeYou190 Does anyone know what happened to Allied Trains in Los Angeles? They were on my list of places I wanted to visit on my trip out West, but when I was in the area I could not find any information on them. -Kevin
Does anyone know what happened to Allied Trains in Los Angeles?
They were on my list of places I wanted to visit on my trip out West, but when I was in the area I could not find any information on them.
Weeeelll.... you should have scheduled your trip of a life time 4 years ago and you would have just caught them by a couple months.
I suppose with all the shops having closed, including Caboose Hobbies near Denver, Whistle Stop in Sacramento and others, lots of great shops have closed down by now. Unfortunately the trip was too late for a good many great train shops.
Posted August 28, 2015 on TrainOrders
Fire has extensively damaged a recently closed model train store in Culver City, authorities said Friday The fire at the former Allied Model Trains store in the 4300 block of Sepulveda Boulevard was reported at 9:45 p.m. Thursday, Culver City Fire Department Battalion Chief Mike Nagy told a news videographer at the scene. Flames were visible from the front of the store when firefighters arrived, Nagy said. The fire was knocked down in five minutes, but the store was severely damaged, Nagy said. The company that owned the store declared insolvency and closed the premises on July 7 after 69 years in business, according to its website. A witness who gave his name as Edward told the videographer he saw a model train set ablaze inside the store.
SeeYou190Does anyone know what happened to Allied Trains in Los Angeles?
Google does
Search String: Allied Trains close
Abstract: Expensive real estate, aging owner, sold to competitor, new owners closed store.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
SeeYou190 Does anyone know what happened to Allied Trains in Los Angeles? . They were on my list of places I wanted to visit on my trip out West, but when I was in the area I could not find any information on them. . -Kevin .
BRAKIE riogrande5761 When ever this topic comes up, which seems to be frequently, a song pops into my head by the rock group Queen. You probably know which one. Odd..I was thinking Billy Preston. I've seen a lot of things come and go over the years and what I miss the most was the gathering of the faithful every Saturday morning at the LHS to view and some times buy the newest models and discuss what improvements we would like in our models to see and several of those discussions was about a power source that would cut down on block wiring. Of course some just knew that would never happen.
riogrande5761 When ever this topic comes up, which seems to be frequently, a song pops into my head by the rock group Queen. You probably know which one.
When ever this topic comes up, which seems to be frequently, a song pops into my head by the rock group Queen. You probably know which one.
Odd..I was thinking Billy Preston.
I've seen a lot of things come and go over the years and what I miss the most was the gathering of the faithful every Saturday morning at the LHS to view and some times buy the newest models and discuss what improvements we would like in our models to see and several of those discussions was about a power source that would cut down on block wiring. Of course some just knew that would never happen.
robert sylvesterwhen you get into Columbia on I-26 and are heading south after the curve where 126 heads down town and I-26 goes south, the next exit, you should see the Lexington Hospital on your right on the hill. Take the exit then turn left and head towards West Columbia. After a mile or two, just before you cross the Broad River you will see Codos on the left at a stop light, that's where you turn right. Go straight through the next light, proceed straight about two blocks and you will see a building on the left with a sign attached "New Brookland Model RR"
Probably a lot easier to give a street address and let the GPS figure it out.
robert sylvestero Columbia on I-26
Russell
Russell:
Yes, when you get into Columbia on I-26 and are heading south after the curve where 126 heads down town and I-26 goes south, the next exit, you should see the Lexington Hospital on your right on the hill. Take the exit then turn left and head towards West Columbia. After a mile or two, just before you cross the Broad River you will see Codos on the left at a stop light, that's where you turn right. Go straight through the next light, proceed straight about two blocks and you will see a building on the left with a sign attached "New Brookland Model RR", can't miss it. His name is Joe an tell him Dr. Sylvester suggested his store.
Have fun.
Robert
How about me?
I moved from a high-tax state to a low-tax state when I retired. There is an LHS very close by, but it caters to O gauge and Lionel. I model HO. Fortunately, I have most of what I need and want, and I am more likely to find the rest on line.
It's not just the shop owners who grow older and retire. Many of us modelers do to.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
robert sylvesterI have been going to the New Brookland Model RR Hobby Shop for over thirty years. I first noticed the store in an advertisement in Model RR
Robert, New Brookland is one of the best hobby shops I have visited. It is definitely worth driving out of your way to visit, and plan to spend some time.
robert sylvesterI have decided to keep things simple and go with Bachman's E-Z track for the whole layout, now that they have 36'' and 38'' radii curves and number 6 and number 8 turnouts. They just snap together, tight and snug and you can add ballast to hide the plastic. know folks like hand laid track or Atlas flex track but you know what, I want to build it fast and when I am finished it will look just good and run great without any glitches.
know folks like hand laid track or Atlas flex track but you know what, I want to build it fast and when I am finished it will look just good and run great without any glitches.
YMMV of course, but flex on cork would probably look better than Bachman E-Z track, which is aimed more at the carpet layout scenario. I wouldn't put hand laid track in the same sentance as flex track when it comes to fast it will go down. Obviously hand laid will take longer. Flex goes down pretty fast and looks the best IMO. Thats my opinion anyway.
robert sylvesterSo if anyone is ever in Columbia, SC and you want to visit a great Hobby Shop, visit West Columbia. Robert Sylvester
Rich: The building has been in the family for decades and the family home is right behind it. The owners father ran a gas station in the building as well as an auto repair shoppe in the building for years, then he turned it over to his son who then opened a hobby shop. The hobby shop has been there since the early 1980's and is still going strong. I am now in the process of building a new building, (18X 24 feet). I have decided to keep things simple and go with Bachman's E-Z track for the whole layout, now that they have 36'' and 38'' radii curves and number 6 and number 8 turnouts. They just snap together, tight and snug and you can add ballast to hide the plastic. I will purchase it all there.
I know folks like hand laid track or Atlas flex track but you know what, I want to build it fast and when I am finished it will look just good and run great without any glitches.
But you're right, he owns the building. Little overhead and he servives because of his business skills. So if anyone is ever in Columbia, SC and you want to visit a great Hobby Shop, visit West Columbia.
Robert Sylvester
Newberry-Columbia, SC Line
Yes owning the building is key. I worked for a well known company for a few years when much younger (Woolworths) and the whole chain went down because they based their plan on 40 year leases (had always worked for them since inception) but in that last 40 year time line things changed and they closed store after store as leases expired.
Robert, you are indeed fortunate to have such a hobby shop. It seems to me that there are two reasons for its continuing survival and success. One, the ability to maintain a huge inventory and, two, the ability to meet expenses including rent or property tax.
While it is also true that the owner is knowledgeable, willing to give discounts, and able to handle repairs, the financial ability to meet expenses and carry a huge inventory are really the keys to success. Most shops that fail can point to their failure to pay their rent while maintaining a huge inventory.
I love my home town hobby shop in West Columbia, SC, although when I try to put the name in my post someone always takes it out, yet I noticed in this most recent discussion many LHS's are listed by name so I will try again.
I have been going to the New Brookland Model RR Hobby Shop for over thirty years. I first noticed the store in an advertisement in Model RR, and they have been faithful ever since.
This place is packed with model railroad equipment, I mean from Garden Railroads, to Z Scale, and all of the detail stuff to go with it. You name it they have it. I have built 5 large layouts and most every thing on them came from this establishment, and if Joe didn't have it he could order it and it would be there in a few days.
Now I know LHS are slowly fading by the way side but this one is still going strong and his inventory will last forever. Not only is the store jammed packed his warehouse is full to the ceiling.
It's just good planning and he maintains excellent inventory to meets the neeeds of modelers and that what it takes. He also repairs and is very knowlegable when it come to the equipment. It never fails when I go in there people are there looking and buying. He gives discounts too.
You can't open a hobby shop on a whim, planning is the key, and that is what we have in Columbia, SC. Model Railroader and other hobby magazine need to do everything they can to support local hobby shops. There's nothing like going into a shop and actually picking up that box car and looking at, you can't do that on line but you can when you visit a good friend who is willing to help you with your model railroad projects.
Thanks to all of the LHS's.
Newberry-Columbia Line, SC
drgwcsI guess a lot of our perpective on the local shop depends on proximity. Before I moved to Danville VA three years ago we lived just outside of the Chicago city limits. There were some excellent shops. Only problem was getting to them......Ironicly it took longer sometimes getting to the local shops that when we lived in Indiana and the nearest shop was in Indianapolis 50 miles away.
I am in that situation right now. From my house in North Cape Coral, it is 65 miles to Gulf Coast Model Railroading in Sarasota, and 15 miles to Metro Trains in Fort Myers.
It takes 1 hour +/- 10 minutes to get to either one of them.
There are better restaurants on the trip back from the hobby shop in Sarasota, so I normally go to the one further away.
dknelsonI can assure you, there are way more LHSs than record stores today.
I believe that there are some "holes" in this opinion
BATMANyou leave the box on the step and it gets picked up.
BATMANThey E-mail you a lable that you print off and tape to the box,
BATMANWhat could be easier?
drgwcsAll 3 LHS's closed in 2009-2010 as the owners drew nearer to retirement and as the strip mall owners increased rents.
drgwcs, Several of the now closed shop that I have went to the owner retired,became ill or passed on except for two that was closed,one due to ah,well, hmmm, shall we say tax problems? and the other through a divorce settlement.
richhotrain This is an interesting thread to read through. Either everyone knows why the LHS has all but disappeared or no one knows why the LHS has all but disappeared. I will be quick to concede that I have no idea either. But, I can share my experience. I have always felt that I entered the hobby back in January 2004 right at the beginning of the end for the LHS. Up here in the Chicago area, back in early 2004 I had three LHS's to choose from, all within a 15 minute drive from my house. All three stores were owned by aging owners in leased store fronts in strip malls. All three were willing to discount purchases, none had an online presence, and all three could order what they didn't have in stock and get it, usually from Walthers within 3 days without charging me for shipping. All 3 LHS's closed in 2009-2010 as the owners drew nearer to retirement and as the strip mall owners increased rents. Although none of the three had an online presence, neither Amazon nor eBay killed the LHS, at least in my experience. The closures were the result of aging owners and increasing rents and a dwindling customer base. Back in the 2004-2010 time frame, beyond by three truly local hobby shops were another dozen or so good sized model railroad shops within an hour's drive of my house. Again, they were all in strip malls, leased storefronts and aging owners. They are all gone but two. The two remaining shops are either 30 minutes away or 45 minutes away, no discounts, but an online presence. Rich
This is an interesting thread to read through. Either everyone knows why the LHS has all but disappeared or no one knows why the LHS has all but disappeared. I will be quick to concede that I have no idea either. But, I can share my experience.
I have always felt that I entered the hobby back in January 2004 right at the beginning of the end for the LHS. Up here in the Chicago area, back in early 2004 I had three LHS's to choose from, all within a 15 minute drive from my house. All three stores were owned by aging owners in leased store fronts in strip malls. All three were willing to discount purchases, none had an online presence, and all three could order what they didn't have in stock and get it, usually from Walthers within 3 days without charging me for shipping.
All 3 LHS's closed in 2009-2010 as the owners drew nearer to retirement and as the strip mall owners increased rents. Although none of the three had an online presence, neither Amazon nor eBay killed the LHS, at least in my experience. The closures were the result of aging owners and increasing rents and a dwindling customer base.
Back in the 2004-2010 time frame, beyond by three truly local hobby shops were another dozen or so good sized model railroad shops within an hour's drive of my house. Again, they were all in strip malls, leased storefronts and aging owners. They are all gone but two. The two remaining shops are either 30 minutes away or 45 minutes away, no discounts, but an online presence.
I guess a lot of our perpective on the local shop depends on proximity. Before I moved to Danville VA three years ago we lived just outside of the Chicago city limits. There were some excellent shops. Only problem was getting to them......Ironicly it took longer sometimes getting to the local shops that when we lived in Indiana and the nearest shop was in Indianapolis 50 miles away. Now I live in Danville VA- there are three shops that are right at 1 1/2hours away all in different directions too. I have enough stuff to keep me busy for a long time though but there is always the thing that you need for a project. Those in further off areas have always needed to rely on other means. Back in the 80's it was mail order. I lived in Oklahoma and one guy who owned a business served as a "fence" for the other guys in the railroad club to hide their mail order purchases from their wives . Now it has shifted to internet and ebay. I do try to patronize the local shop when I am in the area though.
I bought out the brass detail parts of a large train shop back in the late 80's as they were closing. That place was huge and covered all the important scales. Racks of the best stuff and the newest (retirement I think was the reason for the close). Some shops were very well stocked. What alot of you don't seem to take into account is the discounts available for big orders. Even if they show you an invoice, it is ussually devoid of the discount. I learned this working for HD. One time there was an item on sale and retail was lke $2 but clearance was 99 cents. In our books it listed HD cost as $1, found out true cost was closer to 10 cents. I remember looking into being a dealer for Bachmann once, at that time the first discount (available with $10,000 purchase) was 50%, you could get a bigger one for ordering more.
I think this cud has been well-chewed before in these Forums ... but then, what topic hasn't been?
When I think of the LHSs of my youth a few things stand out. First, maybe it didn't take much to make me and others very happy. That is, perhaps I was tailoring my "wants" to what I had reason to know the shop had available to sell. So they always had want I wanted! Second, most of them probably made their "real" money from other stuff such as toys (including but not limited to toy trains), plastic models, and in at least one case here in Milwaukee, a rather formidable array of weapons, "men's magazines," and hunting gear. Third, there was no such thing as the big train show/swap meet as we know it today. So other than mail order, which has always been with us (indeed there was mail order before there were train shops), the LHS had that near monopoly on supply.
We won't even factor in Ebay and such.
My hunch is that back in the days I am talking about, the early to mid 1960s, you didn't really have to know all that much about trains to run a decent hobby shop or even train shop. Now you need a "train guy" (at a salary) to avoid expensive mistakes. And you didn't need massive sums to stock enough inventory to bring in the customers, nor huge numbers of shelves to hold it all. In fact with hindsight, I now see that some shops that I thought were very nice were actually kind of pathetic. They looked well stocked because so much of that inventory never moved.
Consider what it now takes to have a hobby shop that is really impressive. The scenery section alone would be bigger than the shops I went to as a youth (pathetic little boxes of Life Like trees and rolled-up grass mats were the scenery sections back then). The same for track - it isn't just Atlas anymore, and everything in Code 100 is also there in Code 83 etc. And the detail parts, holy cow, how can any shop be expected to carry all the parts that today's prototype-oriented modeler might want? At last fall's Trainfest, Tichy was there with (seemingly) ALL their stuff, the complete line. A huge, overwhelming and wonderful display, and they are hardly the only outfit selling huge inventories of parts.
I'd be surprised if any shop carries every Tichy part. And you could have some of those parts sitting on a shelf for eons before just the right customer strolls in to buy it. That is one reason why Walthers is making no bones about decreasing the number of parts suppliers they carry in their catalog. I disagree with their decision but understand the reasons for it. Products are being offered for the pleasure and satisfaction of increasingly micro-sized minorities of fussy and specific modelers. In 1965 a grab iron was a grab iron. Today? A profusion of grab irons and only the exactly right one will do.
Inventory that sits has always been the bain of the retailer. Think of the LHS as a classification yard. If the cars don't move then it becomes a car storage facility that makes no money for the railroad. And today, inventory almost doubles: every desirable locomotive in both DCC and DC. This or that mail order place undercuts you on price. There no longer is that sure money maker, non-train, bread and butter part of the business to actually pay the bills. And almost nobody needs to deal with you. They have options.
I love hobby shops and I love record stores. I can assure you, there are way more LHSs than record stores today. So be thankful for what we have. But don't get too nostalgic -- the good old days had their limitations.
Dave Nelson
richhotrainEither everyone knows why the LHS has all but disappeared or no one knows why the LHS has all but disappeared.
It isn't really a mystery.
I've been watching and reading about hobby shops closing over the past 30 years and the vast majority of them have closed because they are single owner shops and the owner retires, or ages out or is ill and can no longer run it. Few closures have been reported due to not being able to keep doors open due to insufficient income.
Now considering that there has been a paradigm shift in the way people buy things over the past 10 years, it seems pretty obvious that anyone opening a new shop will increase their odds of success greatly if they extend their reach using online sales.
We can cover the same ground over and over, but the conclusions are still basically the same.
My LHS was quite large, and had amazing inventory and several display layouts, but the owner was of age. He eventually pasted, and his son took ever the buisness. Soon after, they had to close. I still remember the last time i talked out with a brand new GTW blue gondola from Athearn. It was on University road just north of NOVA SouthEastern University.
Luckly, there are still 3 predomenant hobby shops in South Florida, Ready to Roll, Micro Macro Mundo, and a 3rd I can not remember the name of in Fort Lauderdale.
~Eastrail
I have always felt that I entered the hobby back in January 2004 right at the beginning of the end for the LHS. Up here in the Chicago area, back in early 2004 I had three LHS's to choose from, all within a 15 minute drive from my house. All three stores were owned by aging owners in leased store fronts in strip malls. All three were willing to discount purchases, none had an online presence, and all three could order what they didn't have in stock and get it, usually from Walthers, within 3 days without charging me for shipping.
So, now, unless I am desperate, I buy what I need on eBay, wait 3 to 5 days for delivery and pay outrageous shipping charges. Amazon? While we seem to get daily deliveries from Amazon for other household needs, I have never had to go to Amazon for model railroading purchases.
So, at least in my experience, Amazon did not kill the LHS. Neither did eBay. It was the aging of the owner and the ever increasing strip mall rents.
The two biggest model railroad focused shops in my area both found a unique solution to keeping their audience.
The closest to me is Train Shoppe in Salt Lake City. Their current building was built with a kid fun zone in the back, with riding trains, coin operated layouts, a shoot em up minecart dark ride, and birthday rooms. It keeps the families coming in and exposes new people to the hobby. The stock is varied from Garden Scales, Three Rail O Scale, down through HO and N. Mostly entry level and mid-priced brands like Athearn Blue Box stuff, Bachmann, MicroTrains, Lionel over at the 3-rail section and a spattering of Walthers; and a few higher priced stuff like Athearn Genesis to round out the selection.
The other one that comes to mind is TrainLife in Provo. Operated by ExactRail their solution to the LHS problem was to become an online store as well as a physical location. Their store is a dealer's warehouse at its core. While it lacks the flashy kid rides of Train Shoppe, the displays give a more polished adult focused look at the hobby with Pelle Soeborg's former layout taking center stage. Stock is exclusively HO and N, so while it lacks the breadth of the other store; it gains power in its specificity; being the only place in Utah to carry, in addition to ExactRail the house brand; lines such as ScaleTrains, Rapido, Moloco etc (plus some Athearn Genesis and Walthers stuff). There is also a nice line up of railroad books. Most sales are online, but its a great brick and mortar stop for the locals
Both approaches are valid responses to the changing store landscape, and offer an idea of how the local shops can survive in a post Amazon world.
PRR8259 I respectfully disagree with the op. Where I live there are great train stores that are still going, arguably as strong as ever! Others will say I'm somehow "biased" but the folks running these stores are indeed lifelong friends of mine. I was not in any way compensated for these comments. John
I respectfully disagree with the op.
Where I live there are great train stores that are still going, arguably as strong as ever!
Others will say I'm somehow "biased" but the folks running these stores are indeed lifelong friends of mine. I was not in any way compensated for these comments.
I wouldn't say you are biased. You are just lucky to live in an area where there are B&M shops that still exist and that serve you well. Or you are biased based on your circumstances, which are unique to you. My question to you is, what about the rest of us? What you have ain't no good to us.
But I can't complain as I have access to an infinitely greater variety of model train products than I ever would have back in "the good ol days".
For these reasons I now prefer to buy from my local dealers, or at Timonium. (I did/am still buying good late model brass from Overland Hobbies.)
Good for you but not for most of us - so basically not much use to a majority of the readers here. Just sayin...
Two reasons why the above isn't useful to me are:
1) The only LHS I am aware of presently is an hour away and stocks very little of use to me. Sure, I could try to order from him but why? It's out of my way I can order and actually get items I need from a few vendors in other cities and states, who do stock items I need and ship to me. It makes no sense what-so-ever to try to order stuff from a shop an hour away and then wait for it, assuming he can even order items which are probably out of stock at the supplier or middelman etc.
2) I do go to Timonium 2 to 3 times a year, but being a 70's D&RGW/SP modeler, it's pot luck to find things I need. I do find things but it's random luck and not a reliable source of things I need.
One thing that would work for a large percentage of people is to scan eBay for OOP things - that is how I've been able to piece together the passenger train I rode in the mid-1970's, the San Francisco Zephyr. It would have been much more difficult to have to hunt down OOP passenger cars before eBay.
The other thing is to build a list of good vendors you can find current or fairly recent production items to order from. I've got a list of 3 or 4 regular vendors, which BTW, are also B&M stores in other states, and I order from them as they often have things I need.
Between 1988 and 1998, I traveled quite a bit for my job to other states, all over the eastern half of the US. I made it a point to visit 2 or 3 shops in every city I visited while in town. Quite frankly, my experience with the train shops was spotty and most of them were a waste of my time.
I realize there are a few out there who are lucky and have shops they love and then are traumatized when those shops close down. Quite frankly there are much worse things to be traumatized about, and in the present times, there are tons of good options to get your stuff if you simply avail yourself of them. Twenty five years ago, adjusting to the loss of a good local shop wouldn't have been quite as easy.
It seems we have to rehash the demise of the LHS every few months and retread the same stuff more or less. I don't think we've really covered any new ground - repeated the same thigns over and over ad nauseum.
BRAKIE riogrande5761 Heck, I'm presently building an Amtrak San Francisco Zephyr which will be pretty close to typical of the mid 1970s. I never would have been able to do that in "the good ol days". Yeah Jim but,it took us to where we are at today..
riogrande5761 Heck, I'm presently building an Amtrak San Francisco Zephyr which will be pretty close to typical of the mid 1970s. I never would have been able to do that in "the good ol days".
Yeah Jim but,it took us to where we are at today..
Nobody is denying that. Same can be said for umpteen many things. It's basic history.
As I often stated we begged for detailed locomotives starting in the 60's because brass steam engines was better detail then brass or plastic diesels. Recall there was many road specific detailing artices in MR and RMC back then so,there was a demand. As you know it just didn't happen overnight and every manufacturer was caught flat footed by Life Like's P2K line. Still a lot of today's older and still popular manufacturers dragged their feet into the dawning of a new era. Now,some manufacturers has introduce a eccomy line. What a maddening business it must be.
As you know it just didn't happen overnight and every manufacturer was caught flat footed by Life Like's P2K line. Still a lot of today's older and still popular manufacturers dragged their feet into the dawning of a new era.
Now,some manufacturers has introduce a eccomy line.
What a maddening business it must be.
It's not for the feint of heart. But there are a lot of businesses I would not want to be in. Thankfully there are people who have a passion for it and are offering us excellent products.
PRR8259For these reasons I now prefer to buy from my local dealers, or at Timonium. (
John,As I have mention before in these type of discussions I would love to buy from a LHS but,the closest fully stock hobby shop is in Columbus and that's around 130 mile round trip and that's a mite to far.
And not to mention I don't have money to burn by paying near full price plus gas,wear and tear on my 97 Jeep plus food due to my diabetes so,I buy for M.B. Klein and B&M shops that has a e-Bay store and there are many on e-Bay.
I'm weary of buying locomotives at Train Shows in fact I can count on one hand the number of engines I bought at shows and those was from the same dealer since he stands behind the locomotives he sells and even gives you his business card in case something is wrong with locomotive.
One other issue I have experienced this year has been a decline in the quality of packing and shipping models combined with rougher package treatment by the USPS.
I have had to return three models so far this year from three different dealers due to shipping damage, and a fourth model that was not quite as advertised was effectively destroyed in return shipping despite the fact I packed it exceptionally well (in words of the seller).
rrebell Mjorstad Honestly, I think LHS are dying because all retail is dying. Online retail is gaining more and more market share, and as with all brick-and-mortar stores LHS are getting squeezed out. The convenience of online shopping is too much to compete with, even when taking the personal relationships of LHS into account. We’ll still have LHS around, but I think we’ll see them consolidate from a cluster of small neighborhood ventures into a handful of regional one-stop-shops. Accually you are wrong. The problem is that things like malls were way overbuilt. Then you add the leveraged buyouts (sears, toys-r-us and others) and throw in higher rents and wages. What most people don't know is that in malls, the anchors have a say in the rents of the other spaces and sometimes other voting rights, it is not allways the mall that sets these things. The last nail is the new minmulist culture (whatch the coming glut in storage rentals, already they are diversifying). Last thing I would like to bring up is places like Amazon (the gorilla in the place) has never made a dime in retail, like never.
Mjorstad Honestly, I think LHS are dying because all retail is dying. Online retail is gaining more and more market share, and as with all brick-and-mortar stores LHS are getting squeezed out. The convenience of online shopping is too much to compete with, even when taking the personal relationships of LHS into account. We’ll still have LHS around, but I think we’ll see them consolidate from a cluster of small neighborhood ventures into a handful of regional one-stop-shops.
Honestly, I think LHS are dying because all retail is dying. Online retail is gaining more and more market share, and as with all brick-and-mortar stores LHS are getting squeezed out. The convenience of online shopping is too much to compete with, even when taking the personal relationships of LHS into account. We’ll still have LHS around, but I think we’ll see them consolidate from a cluster of small neighborhood ventures into a handful of regional one-stop-shops.
Accually you are wrong. The problem is that things like malls were way overbuilt. Then you add the leveraged buyouts (sears, toys-r-us and others) and throw in higher rents and wages. What most people don't know is that in malls, the anchors have a say in the rents of the other spaces and sometimes other voting rights, it is not allways the mall that sets these things. The last nail is the new minmulist culture (whatch the coming glut in storage rentals, already they are diversifying). Last thing I would like to bring up is places like Amazon (the gorilla in the place) has never made a dime in retail, like never.
Pardon me if I misread what you said, but I think we’re actually in agreement here. Plenty of economic publications note how the US is wayyy overbuilt with retail space and now we’re witnessing a market retraction here, partly spurred by online shopping gaining a foothold in the retail market (as I mentioned), and partly just due to the nature of market bubbles. LHS are just caught up in this seismic change.
Where I live there are great train stores that are still going, arguably as strong as ever! The sales staff is as knowledgeable, kind and courteous as any could ever hope for at The Station, in New Cumberland, PA (only minutes outside Harrisburg). The coffee is free, and they are trying to provide good quality coffee to their customers, also free sodas and snacks. The regular clientele brings in plenty of snacks that are freely shared with customers. They may not be a big store but a variety of items are crammed in the space they do have, and they will order anything the customer wants. On Saturdays, the "usual suspects" can often be found hanging out.
English's Model RR Supply in Montoursville, PA, is another great train store. They have expanded the actual retail area in recent years and they have a great in-stock inventory, including a section for new releases that is off limits to picking for internet/mail orders so that the locals or other walk-in customers can be assured of being able to obtain newly released items that maybe they had not pre-ordered or otherwise somehow "missed" (since not everybody is breathlessly tracking the new announcements or arrivals online). They most often pre-order one of at least every road number of whatever engines are coming, to have for the retail store customers. That in itself is quite an achievement, these days.
Shipping charges are rising and I'm switching my buying away from Ebay and online retailers back toward those train stores that remain. That means I'm doing more pre-orders than previously, and am splitting them between the stores. It is better (more economical) for me to show up in person and scour through the store inventory than to pay high prices and high shipping charges for the occasional single item on Ebay. At these stores, I can always find something to want.
Also there is Mainline Hobby in Blue Ridge Summit, PA; I haven't ever gotten in the door yet, as the other two generally take care of any needs I may have, but they too have a great reputation!
Kevin,
I think Bobbie Hall's closed whe she died. My memory is going in there on a St. Patrick's day with a green shirt on and Bobbye declaring to one and all "The man with the green shirt gets a 10 percent discount and 20 per cent if the item has green on it!" My wallet bled green that day but it was fun.
It is sad to know the Happy Hobo in Tampa closed. They had a good shop with a wide range of kits. Well like so many shops, their time runs out. When I was kid we had three good hobby shops within walking distance of each other in downtown Boston. There was Eric Fuchs at 28 Tremont Street. Hobbytown of Boston was at 46 Boylston Street. John Chapper produced those famous Hobbytown of Boston locomotives down in the basement. Finally, my favorite was the Boston Model Railroad Company at 665 Atlantic Avenue, right across the street from South Station. This was a good place to meet railroaders who were also railfans and modelers. All of them are long gone. No one would be able to afford the rents in downtown Boston now.
I was recently in a Hobbytown USA that I don't expect to see this coming Christmas season. Their inventory is about two thirds of what is normally on the shelves. What there is has been spread out to do something about the empty space but, thin discises nothing.
The fact that there is so much available to warrant a shop devoted to HO alone, is part of the demise of the LHS who did OK when it was Athearn, Mantua, and Varney. Today. No way buddy. I do all my buying over the www. The nearest place that even calls itself a hobby shop is a 170 mile drive, ONE WAY. If I'm in the area I stop in and buy what's available that I want. Otherwise, why turn down up to a 20 per cent discount, free shipping over $100, and a live inventory?
riogrande5761Heck, I'm presently building an Amtrak San Francisco Zephyr which will be pretty close to typical of the mid 1970s. I never would have been able to do that in "the good ol days".
As I often stated we begged for detailed locomotives starting in the 60's because brass steam engines was better detail then brass or plastic diesels. Recall there was many road specific detailing artices in MR and RMC back then so,there was a demand.
LHS's are dying because they are single owner stores and owner retires. They aren't being replaced as fast as they are disappearing. Online sales are taking over to fill the gap.
The guy above was not entirely wrong, retail has indeed been shifting in a big way to online sales. This is fact. Any existing or new hobby shop is more likely to succeed if they have a strong online presence. MB Klein's has shifted their b&m store so it is 1/3rd it's previous size to repurpose space to the online sales side. It is not nearly as nice to visit in person since the change but that is where there business is.
Sure I have a few nostagic memories but that's all in the past and gone. I prefer to focus my nostalgia on model trains rathers than hobby shops of your, which didn't have nearly as nice products as we have today. They don't call them rose colored glasses for no reason.
Heck, I'm presently building an Amtrak San Francisco Zephyr which will be pretty close to typical of the mid 1970s. I never would have been able to do that in "the good ol days".
It is interesting if you go back to say a 70's model railroader you would see a lot of shops that were gone by say 1990 or 2000. There were shops that closed and others opened. A lot of what has happened is that owners have retired. It doesn't seem like most transitioned to new owners. I can think of one that survived two ownership changes but that is it- Train Central in Indianapolis. It was Varry Trains originally and was sold the next owner passed away and Wayne had bought it. That shop is generally the exception. Indianapolis lost three shops that I can think of due to retirement. Our local shop here in Danville VA closed here about three years ago- it was combined with a gift store. The owner retired. Any new things opening seem to be online.
csxns BATMAN everthing we buy brought right to the house the same or next day, gotta like that. True and i like it but when something comes broke it has to go back.If i get it from the LHS i can check it out their.
BATMAN everthing we buy brought right to the house the same or next day, gotta like that.
True and i like it but when something comes broke it has to go back.If i get it from the LHS i can check it out their.
We have returned very little over the last few years. They make it very easy to do. They E-mail you a lable that you print off and tape to the box, you leave the box on the step and it gets picked up. What could be easier?
BATMANeverthing we buy brought right to the house the same or next day, gotta like that.
SeeYou190 rrebell The problem is that things like malls were way overbuilt. Then you add the leveraged buyouts (sears, toys-r-us and others) and throw in higher rents and wages. . There is a newer and very nice strip center mall in Daytona that the only tenant is a Dollar Tree. You can see the signs for an HH Gregg, Sears Hometrends, Toys-R-Us, and a Babies-R-Us. . There is so much empty retail space right now that it is staggering. . -Kevin .
rrebell The problem is that things like malls were way overbuilt. Then you add the leveraged buyouts (sears, toys-r-us and others) and throw in higher rents and wages.
There is a newer and very nice strip center mall in Daytona that the only tenant is a Dollar Tree. You can see the signs for an HH Gregg, Sears Hometrends, Toys-R-Us, and a Babies-R-Us.
There is so much empty retail space right now that it is staggering.
Not only has the retail market changed, the hobby shop has changed as well.
When I started some 48 years ago, it was common to have a freelance model railroad. So any locomotive could be used - you bought a 4-6-0 or 2-8-2 and lettered it for your road. Scales were pretty much N, HO, O, HOn3, Sn3, On3.
Now everyone wants a model specific to their prototype road. Manufacturers try to supply that, but only the big online guys can really buy them all AND sell them all. Many at a discount. Plus the hobby has so many fragments - Z, N, HO, S, O, #1, 3 rail O, hirail S, Nn3, HOn30, HOn3, Sn2, Sn3, Sn42, On30, On3, all the different Large Scales - that a LHS can't possible cover them all completely.
As an example, last week I was at a fairly good size store in Pennsylvania looking for some AF fastrack straight pieces. They only had the 10" and 5" so I had to mail order the smaller sizes from an online store.
These are some truly GREAT hobby shops I have visited that are no longer with us. Maybe this will bring back some memories of the days gone by.
Bobbie Hall's Hobbies, Dallas, Texas (unknown)
Chattanooga Depot, Chattanooga, Tennessee (owner retired)
Chester Holley, Tampa, Florida (owner retired)
Dan's Train Depot, Ocala, Florida (went to on-line only)
Hawkins Rail Service, Lafayette, Indiana (owner retired)
Gandy Dancers, Atlanta, Georgia (unknown)
Happy Hobo, Tampa, Florida (owner sold store, new owner closed store)
Orange Blossom Hobbies, Miami, Florida (unknown, very old store)
Warrick Custom Hobbie, Fort Lauderdale, Florida (unknown, very old store)
Great hobby shops near me that are still hanging on. Many of these are past the peak of their glory now.
Colonial Photo and Hobby, Orlando, Florida
Discount Trains, Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Gulf Coast Model Railroading, Sarasota, Florida
Ready To Roll, Miami, Florida
Riverdale Station, Atlanta, Georgia
New stores are opening, but they are nothing like the old stores.
I also have many, many fond memories of hobby shops from my youth. Hauling a gallon of Missle Mist fuel home for my model airplnes on my Mustang bike that was five miles away was just one of many adventures I had.
I have become friendly with this kid that bought a good sized MRR shop a few years ago. I wasn't sure whether that was a good idea or not. He took the name and inventory and moved it into his parents three car garage at home. It is strictly mailorder now and he is making a killing. He has way more inventory than the shop ever did and offers good discounts when asked for.
Shipping charges are a good deal if one really has a grasp on what the true cost to move the metal monster down the road is.
I am fortunate enough to have PWRS not far away and can get my browsing fix there if need be. I don't miss anything about retail store shoppings demise, we get just about everthing we buy brought right to the house the same or next day, gotta like that.
It is sad to see such I great tradition go. It truth LHSs are still a cheap way to get trains if you think about it. If you add the shipping many online suppliers charge for the LHS is usunalloyed cheaper. My grandpa often order’s from hobby shops a few hours away (they are the closest) in order to give them buisness, and also because they can’t almost anything after a quick phone call.
In the West Michigan Area, were I used to live, there still is a nice LHS within walking distance from my old house. Their stock it small compared to online places, but they often have stuff for western railroads that sell out quickly in places they are more popular.
There is also a used hobby shop in that are. I love it, it’s like a train show open every day (okay, not Sunday). I can’t see used train stores going online, EBay is the closest thing, and nowhere near close to used train shops! It’s nice to see something like a LHS May stick around a while!
Another issue mentioned often is that some manufacturers require preordering certain models.
What small independent hobby shop can afford to preorder all the models that customers may buy?
There is a hobby shop in my city that has existed for many years. The original owner sold it back around the 1980's I think.
The new owner has done quite well but it is very slowly shrinking in size. I have noticed it over the years.
Other issues affect the shop. Cost are always going up. Unless you have ever operated a hobby shop you will have no idea of what it is like. I have talked with the owner a few times. It is mind boggling.
I saw how many times he had to move.
Model railroading is popular in my area. I know may model railroaders and there is probably the biggest show once a year for two day. Online sales. Seems to be one issue.
They handle all scales, planes, cars, other hobbies. A retired fellow takes care of a couple layouts.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
My former LHS folded because the owner was past retirement age, and his shop's landlord jacked up the rent. The last I looked, the shop was still vacant.
He could get most stuff I wanted, but I might have to wait a while because his in-stock inventory was small, but I was seldom in a hurry so that was fine with me.
I know.
I don't want to mention any specific names, but some formerly great ones are really in a state of decline.
The same is happening with wargaming centered and R/C centered hobby shops.
It breaks my heart. Sorry, my response is emotional. I love hobby shops. So much of my youth was involved with hobby shops.