The reason I see the point of waiting is I want a Walthers RTR turntable but not enough to pay $300 for it, got one for $50, out the door. Had a bit of a skip, do to a gear on the bridge, worked fine but then I am a profectionist. For for $20 I got a pair bridges, one 90' and one 130' (needed 90'), got my perfect bridge and a replacement gear off the longer one and lots of other parts too.
I see brass detail parts all the time on ebay, MV also. Need to know exact model you wanted. I just got a Westside class A climax for $200, mint in box, had a bunch to choose from, painted, unpainted. If you need it now, you will pay a mint for most things, patence is what you need.
PRR8259 Hmmm. What you don't need now you can buy later if you do...RIGHT! Sure! With model trains I disagree.
Hmmm. What you don't need now you can buy later if you do...RIGHT! Sure!
With model trains I disagree.
I didn't need Amtrak Heritiage phase 1 passenger cars until Athearn finally announced the engine I needed to pull a 1970's San Francisco Zephyr. It looks like Walthers ran them a few years back. But when I saw Athearn announce my SDP40F's with ice breakers, I started hunting and figured I'd be screwed. Instead I managed to find most of the pointless arrow and phase 2 passenger cars I needed: baggage, lounges, diner, plenty of sleepers and even an ACF 44 seat coach (which arrived from Sweden). All I need are a couple more coaches and I'll have more than enough dog's breakfast cars for a San Francisco Zephyr.
I guess it just depends. But brass, well, brass engines have pretty much always been out of my price range anyway. I've struggled to afford the brass cabooses I do have although unpainted have come down. I picked up a UP CA 5/6 for $90 and a D&RGW 1500 series caboose for about the same.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
With model trains I disagree. There are engines, both brass and otherwise, that I remember being relatively plentiful at one time or another in the past. I lacked the money or commitment to buy them at that time, and they are just gone from the marketplace now.
According to brasstrains.com, the values of all BUT the very last production runs of a given brass model have plummeted, but one cannot actually find those late '90's/early 2000's Overland Models diesels that are valued as low as $285 now for sale anywhere at that price point. Anywhere they are for sale, the asking price is greater than that. The last runs of some models, which sold for full listed MSRP of $750 new several years ago, are now $1000, if you can even find them at all.
There are models I'd love to buy, right now, at the current estimated value of $285 to $400, almost down to Genesis or Genesis 2.0 prices, that I cannot find anywhere at any price. Guess others must want them too? ATSF stuff is relatively plentiful. BNSF stuff is just NOT.
MV lenses? I have a few. Good luck finding them in any plentiful quantity anywhere.
Aftermarket detail parts? Relatively few are readily available and the rest seem to be hard to find.
Lego needs to market the train line better in the states. Even shops that had a large selection of Lego products had little if anything from the train line up. That doesn't help sales in the states. Online is great and one can find most anything, but we still have plenty of folks that prefer to buy in person, so that avenue of sales still needs to be persued along with the online side. And yes, the newbies in the hobby will nolonger have the "Lionel set around the tree" memory in a few short years. Even Lionel needs to do a better job of marketing its sets, especially around the holidays. I would also gamble to say that Menards stocking trains thru the holidays has helped get some newbies into the hobby or rekindling memories that result in a vintage set coming out of the closet once again. Mike the Aspie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
I've always thought traditional Lego's were cool but I never had any as a kid but would have loved to have them at that age. OTOH, all the stuff in the last 25+ years where Lego has models of rockets, movie space ships and even trains, I have no interest in such "low resolution" minatures. My desire was always for more realism, not less. Blocky to me remind me of the early days of computer graphics - which looked like, well, crap.
ATLANTIC CENTRALNo offense, but way to much info.
Hmmmm. Really?
SeeYou190 Lego trains might be the last really good possible way to get children into the hobby. Everyone loves Lego train displays, and they run great. . . -Kevin .
Lego trains might be the last really good possible way to get children into the hobby. Everyone loves Lego train displays, and they run great.
.
-Kevin
They may well be, I will leave that task to others.
Sheldon
Living the dream.
I know alot about legos but that was a different time and you can buy legos cheap second hand or clearance. It is an interesting history going back way before my time, I think before WW2 in fact. Lots of knockoffs and fighting in the early days if I remember the story right. Accually the history of model railroading is quite a tale when read about the manufacturing and the rip offs. Talked to an old timer about Paige, a company by a guy who bought kits and detail parts and then cast his own, not to use but to sell on the open market. A bunch of manufactures banded together and sued him out of buissness. I love the ins and outs and intreige of buisness.
Travis,
No offense, but way to much info. I don't follow LEGO, I just read what I read on a news feed. Good or bad, they have only gotten a few hundred dollars from me.......
ATLANTIC CENTRAL SeeYou190 NittanyLion Building a model car or an Erector set ferris wheel is outright the same thing as the Legos. . LEGO has done an amazing job of staying relevent in the modern world. . -Kevin . Actually, LEGO sales are down, for the first time ever they have experianced negative sales growth over the last several years. While I do see the creativity in LEGO, I have always thought the cost was beyond the pale. Like everyone, we bought some for the kids (grand kids), but even the tech smart boy has since moved on to other interests. Sheldon
SeeYou190 NittanyLion Building a model car or an Erector set ferris wheel is outright the same thing as the Legos. . LEGO has done an amazing job of staying relevent in the modern world. . -Kevin .
NittanyLion Building a model car or an Erector set ferris wheel is outright the same thing as the Legos.
LEGO has done an amazing job of staying relevent in the modern world.
Actually, LEGO sales are down, for the first time ever they have experianced negative sales growth over the last several years.
While I do see the creativity in LEGO, I have always thought the cost was beyond the pale.
Like everyone, we bought some for the kids (grand kids), but even the tech smart boy has since moved on to other interests.
Look at my profile picture... Now let me tell you a few things...
The recent Lego sales slump is not the first time it happened, and actually is pretty expected considering that sales peaked in 2014-2015 around the release of the first LEGO Movie. The closing of Toys R Us in the USA also lead to another bit of loss of revenue (which hurt competitors Mattel and Hasbro far more than it hit Lego). The slump though is pretty minor though, stuff released only a year or two on the market is pretty rare to still find new in stores and costs an arm and a leg on the secondary market. Any collectible items (such as the recent Lego Disney Series 2 Collectible Minifigure line) see a rush to grab all the figures. High profile sets such as the Saturn V, UCS Millenium Falcon, and the recent Stranger Things set all draw in attention from people of various ages and manage to sell at prices comparable to the highest end items in the model railroad hobby. So while the market is down, its a pretty minor slump all things considered and is more a return to normal after that artifically inflated growth a few years back.
Now if you want to talk about a real Lego sales slump look at the company's years from 1999 to 2005 or so... Only a few themes were really keeping the company together, two licensed products Star Wars and Harry Potter (both which are still running to this day) and the in-house product line Bionicle (a 2001-2010, 2015-2016 fantasy/sci fi line similar to something like Transformers). Several very high profile themes flopped hard in that time, Galidor (a sci-fi action figure line and Lego's first attempt at a TV show) being the most notable. It took the hiring of new corporate heads and a new design staff to turn the slump around, and this article goes into more detail than I would ever care to so I recommend reading up on it: https://www.businessinsider.com/how-lego-made-a-huge-turnaround-2014-2 If you want a bit more of a deap dive into that era, here's an even longer piece on the subject: https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/innovation-almost-bankrupted-lego-until-it-rebuilt-with-a-better-blueprint/
Not to mention, that 1999-2005 era slump was Lego facing and answering the question of 'how to sell physical toys to children raised in the digital age?' all in an era when Amazon was still mostly focused on online book sales and eBay was just barely kicking off. Lego answered that question quite well, and for any model railroad group stumped on how to get younger people involved in the hobby a study of Lego's post-2005 methods is a great leason on how to reach out to the digital generation.
Now of course any complaint of Lego having to high of a price for entry ignores a lot about the model railroad hobby... A simple DC starter kit in model railroading is running for what, $80-$150 these days? Yes Lego has products in that range to, but lets also remember that Lego has some great low range stuff. I can easily go out right now and buy a Lego set in the $20-$30 range that is completely self contained, with two or three figures and a small scene or vehicle. A kid can recieve a small Lego set and have everything thing they need to start playing. There is no analog to that in our hobby since it takes $80 to get a low end train set, and that is ignoring the prices for lumber for benchwork, scenery, structures, DCC upgrades, etc. Yes Lego is selling products up to $800 in cost, but saying that is representative of the entire company line is like saying model railroading is only represented by Scale Trains Museum Line Gas Turbines and brass models of rare steam... There is a price range that allows for multiple points of entry for consumers with different budgets, and I dare say Lego has a much lower entry point than model railroading currently has.
On top of that... I can list a lot of model railroaders besides myself who seem to have a growing Lego collection on the side. Our own WP8thSub has a few Lego X-Wings and TIE-Fighters in the media room across from his layout, and I have had a few talks with Chris Brimley about his Lego collection to (the Lego city across the room from his layout is pretty impressive). Another local model railroader who isn't as well known outside of Utah, Parker Wilson also stocks quite a few Lego sets in his collection; while also almost single handedly spear heading the cosmetic restoration of an 0-6-0 in Heber, Utah the last few years. Trust me, there is a lot of overlap in these hobbies. While I had my ERTL Thomas train sets as a kid, it was Lego that kept me building and tinkering all the way from my childhood up through the present day. If I was a betting man I am willing to bet most kids now who will someday be a part of our hobby in years to come will not have memories of 'Lionel around the Christmas tree' but instead memories of trying to rebuild a Lego Ninjago set into a 'Ninja Train' on Christmas morning instead. I know I tried building a 2-8-0 using Bionicle spinners as wheels myself...
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Like everyone, we bought some for the kids (grand kids), but even the tech smart boy has since moved on to other interests.
I used to be really in to Legos, but a few years ago I realised that I had so many (wouldn't be surprised if I've got somewhere between 50 and 100 sets!) and stoped buying more because I already had enough to have fun with.
Also about the same time I began buying trains. My newest Lego set came over a year and a half ago, the same time I started buying trains! Now I spend my money on Trains and not Legos.
Maybe someday I'll build some Lego trains, I likely have a lot of the parts, but I really don't like how unrealistic they are compared to HO or N stuff, though I have seen some nice stuff. Legos do cost a lot and Lego trains certainly exceed HO/N trains.
This thread has gone on for a long time and gotten quite of topic!
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
NittanyLionBuilding a model car or an Erector set ferris wheel is outright the same thing as the Legos.
Good points everyone about the specialty stores- Hardware I think is coming back- as food for thought Ace had an initiative about ten years back that they were promoting as Ace the Hobby Place where they had an alliance with one of the hobby distributers. As for electronics I used to love frys and Micro Center when we lived there them- they always did good business but they were regional. Many mom and pop shops used to be in malls etc but got forced out by rents and major chains. I remember a lot of malls having locally owned hobby shops back in the 70's and 80's In the long run that was probably a mistake- a lot of malls could use mom and pops now to fill the space.
York1 How many kids today want parts to build a crystal radio, or glue to build a model car, or to take the time to build miniature motorized ferris wheels out of metal girders with screws and nuts? Unless it's not a Lego model or an electronic screen, there is very little market. Especially not enough to provide a specialty store owner a living.
How many kids today want parts to build a crystal radio, or glue to build a model car, or to take the time to build miniature motorized ferris wheels out of metal girders with screws and nuts? Unless it's not a Lego model or an electronic screen, there is very little market. Especially not enough to provide a specialty store owner a living.
On the other hand, why would I want to build a crystal radio in the first place, even if I was inclined towards an electronics project? I recently helped one of my nephews assemble a kit to build a line following, solar powered robot car that was about as complex as I remember crystal radios being.
Building a model car or an Erector set ferris wheel is outright the same thing as the Legos. They teach you own to follow a process using components to assemble a finished product and later how to develop the skill set to produce a new and unique product from raw components. I learned tons of things from Legos, like how joints must be staggered to prevent weak points or how cross-bracing works.
There is another thing impacting retail more than anyone has said, that is the Marie Kondo effect, much bigger than the internet but in effect the internet has made it possible. Marie is a writer from Japan who preaches de-clutering. This has spread faster and had more impact that most relize, especially among the young and it is not just her books but a whole generation that is going minimulist and declutering. One book by another author says to throw away one item per day pluss add an item each day till you get your world in order so on day two you would get rid of two items ect till day 30. Daughter did it three times and the stuff you get rid of can be anything, a recipt or a paper clip even. Now comes the second part which is if you don't need it now, get rid of it and if you need it later, just buy it then, you know with the internet, you can and the cost can be less as others join into this idea. I see storage places becoming indangered one day which is why they are already diversifying.
rrebellBestbuy could be a force in the electronic market
I wish Bestbuy would be an electronics store that would carry electronic supplies like an old Radio Shack. I know that Hobbytown now carries some Radio Shack materials, but it is just enough to fill one small section.
Of course, my wishes go against the fact that economics rules the market, and that there just isn't a big enough market for old style electronics stores, hobby shops, camera stores, or a myriad of other small specialty stores.
Caution: Old Grouchy Geezer alert! How many kids today want parts to build a crystal radio, or glue to build a model car, or to take the time to build miniature motorized ferris wheels out of metal girders with screws and nuts? Unless it's not a Lego model or an electronic screen, there is very little market. Especially not enough to provide a specialty store owner a living.
York1 John
clsanchez77The internet/globalization of just about everyting has destroyed the Local Fish Store. There are many of us who value the local experience, but not enough of us to keep it a sustainable business practice.
I think this is true of many small retail shops. Discount stores like Walmart carry enough stuff to take away a lot of sales from the small shop. Add the internet wih it's large selection and it's not surprising that small shops for trains, fish, whatever just can't make it. And unfortunately the discount stores don't carry a lot of things the small shops had. Even large store chains are having trouble. Retail is definitely changing.
I buy about 75% of my stuff online and probably another 20% at train shows. Not by choice, by necessity. The nearest hobby store with trains is a 45 minute drive and he carrys very little in trains - mostly R/C stuff.
Paul
Camera shops are gone for the most part, killed more by the smart phone than anything else. Electronic shops, mostly gone, bike shops are going (see that here now). But things do change, local hardware stores on the way back as people tire of the big box stores and their lack of people or info. Google can find most things but it can take skill and a weeding through all the opinions and mis information (one reason why the local hardware is coming back). Bestbuy could be a force in the electronic market but there Geeksquad can be a joke at times, people need reliable info.
clsanchez77 Hey folks. I am new to this forum as a member but I have been quietly lurking in the background for years. This topic was funny enough the one to finally convince me to join. I have not touched a model train in close to 25 years and its a hobby I have been long wanting to get back into. But specific to this topic, I have been into reef aquariums for close to 20 years and I am a moderater over at a local reef club website. We have this very same conversation on a regular basis. The internet/globalization of just about everyting has destroyed the Local Fish Store. There are many of us who value the local experience, but not enough of us to keep it a sustainable business practice. It is quite the shame because many people enter the hobby blind, which is not cheap, and then make countless mistakes, get frustrated and quit. Decades ago, fewer people entered the hobby, but the success rates were much faster. As far as the local hobby store goes. I now have 4 of my own kids, ages 4 to 11 and they can't do some of the things I did growing up (such as potato guns). However, there are some hands on hobbies I would love to see my boys get into and not having a hobby shop is a real deal killer. We have no hobby shops where I live and it makes it difficult to draw their interest (or the wife's) when they cannot touch and see the items first. Trains is defintely one of them and is something I am working on now...but access is an issue. Model cars is the other and there just is no where you can buy the supplies locally. Sure, a few corporate retailers have a few things, but no where the assortment I had at their age.
Hey folks. I am new to this forum as a member but I have been quietly lurking in the background for years. This topic was funny enough the one to finally convince me to join. I have not touched a model train in close to 25 years and its a hobby I have been long wanting to get back into.
But specific to this topic, I have been into reef aquariums for close to 20 years and I am a moderater over at a local reef club website. We have this very same conversation on a regular basis. The internet/globalization of just about everyting has destroyed the Local Fish Store. There are many of us who value the local experience, but not enough of us to keep it a sustainable business practice. It is quite the shame because many people enter the hobby blind, which is not cheap, and then make countless mistakes, get frustrated and quit. Decades ago, fewer people entered the hobby, but the success rates were much faster.
As far as the local hobby store goes. I now have 4 of my own kids, ages 4 to 11 and they can't do some of the things I did growing up (such as potato guns). However, there are some hands on hobbies I would love to see my boys get into and not having a hobby shop is a real deal killer. We have no hobby shops where I live and it makes it difficult to draw their interest (or the wife's) when they cannot touch and see the items first. Trains is defintely one of them and is something I am working on now...but access is an issue. Model cars is the other and there just is no where you can buy the supplies locally. Sure, a few corporate retailers have a few things, but no where the assortment I had at their age.
Interesting that you make the comment about the aquarium stores doing the same thing. It made me think about another thing in this regard that has gone away. Where I grew up- Stillwater, Oklahoma had a store called Aqua Mart. It was half aquarium store and half hobby shop. Model planes covered the ceiling and they carried some model railroad stuff but not a lot. Ironicaly their main competition was Hobby Lobby which at the time had a decent hobby area with tons of models, trains, and even R/C (I worked at Hobby Lobby in the 80's at this store- get this #5) I can think of other combination shops- there was a hobby shop/ camera store in Enid, I have seen some combination craft/ hobby shops and some hobby shop/ gift store combinations and a couple of toy store/ hobby shop combos. You don't see this as much anymore- some of it depends of the strength of the other part. If both are going down- ie the camera/ hobby shop you are in trouble.
clsanchez77It is quite the shame because many people enter the hobby blind, which is not cheap, and then make countless mistakes, get frustrated and quit.
to the Model Railroader forums. Your first few posts are delayed by the moderators, but please stick it otu and join our conversations.
I was really into fresh water tropcial fish twenty years ago, and you make an excellent point. The local aquarium shop was my resource to learning how to keep the tank working.
Didn't think of this angle. Only hobby that has any real stores are crafting places, even miniatures gaming stores are disapearing.
On one of our trips to visit the kids in Boston (we live in northern Indiana), I took my CFO on a detour to Baltimore to visit MB Klein, went north to Trainworld and Trainland in New York, and then hit AA Hobbies in Rhode Island. I think we’ve been to every train store of any significance between our home and beantown; I love that girl!
Ok I have to add this- in the 50's hobby shops were everywhere.......
My dad took this back in 1959 on a trip through California.
You know I just got thinking and calculating over the past twenty years I have been in over 100 hobby shops. A fair amount of those have closed over the years. Most of those that have closed were a result of retirement or health. One went through a fire and never really recovered. I can think of three that downsized themselves so much that it sunk them. Two went to strictly internet or train show. I have heard of a select few that run into rent increases or were forced to relocate. These same things have affected a lot of small businesses too.
Looking at this from the perspective as one who once managed a retail business there are often some different things that hobby shops do that are different than most retail. You want people to be able to shop- if they can not do so they won't buy. I have seen some that I wonder how they keep in business- Those are the ones I can't decide if it is a hobby shop with a hoarding problem or a hoarding problem with a hobby shop. Make stuff shopable. Similarly you want people to buy items- I have been a little surprised at some shops on the pricing for used stuff. $150 for an assembled Atlas roundhouse (and not the best job) really! Most retail will mark something down if it doesn't sell after a long time. Just some food for thought.
PRR8259 Well, my all time shipping damage or loss rate is still around 1% to 2%, not 0% as Sheldon has experienced, but for me the disturbing trend is this year, lately, it has definitely been a problem with multiple dealers shipping via USPS. I think there is still a place for the local train store, and they are not all just giving up and closing their doors. Instead they are adapting to compete the best they know how. Many have embraced internet sales; others are planning to do so. John
Well, my all time shipping damage or loss rate is still around 1% to 2%, not 0% as Sheldon has experienced, but for me the disturbing trend is this year, lately, it has definitely been a problem with multiple dealers shipping via USPS.
I think there is still a place for the local train store, and they are not all just giving up and closing their doors. Instead they are adapting to compete the best they know how. Many have embraced internet sales; others are planning to do so.
John
If I could drive less than 20 minutes to a reasonablely stocked train store, willing to order stuff promptly at moderately competitive prices, I would be all in.
That store does not exist near me. It does exist an hour, two hours from me. And when I can, I visit those shops.
At one time, back in the late 60's, 70's and into the 80's, here in the central Maryland/Baltimore area, there were easily over a dozen good hobby shops/train stores.
Today, only three or four remain in the similar area.
And, for the most part, after 50 years at this, the only "service" I need is selection and price.......
The last time this topic came up, I think it was Howard Zane, I renewed my offer to run the mega store if suitable investors stepped forward - I did not get any calls or e-mails..........