Do you know that 3 John Allen's locomotives have come to Japan? It is said that Kenichi Matsumoto was entrusted with repair. Look at about a quarter from the top of this homepage.
Great picture. The condition of the locomotives is something. I love the narrative under the picture, especially describing "With model fans over a certain age,-----"
I'm sure others in here will be interested in this.
Thank you,
Mike.
My You Tube
mbinsewiI'm sure others in here will be interested in this.
Maybe if someone tells us how to translate the page....................
maxmanMaybe if someone tells us how to translate the page.
I'm using Chrome, and when I open his link, there is a box in the upper right corner that lets you translate. I'm thinking it's a Chrome thing? I haven't tried it Fire Fox or IE. I switched to Chrome a couple of weeks ago, and this site, Photo Bucket, and all others work great!
The translate box is a Chrome thing, but using any browser, you can copy the real link into the left box at;
https://translate.google.com
Then click on the right box translation
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BigDaddy The translate box is a Chrome thing, but using any browser, you can copy the real link into the left box at; https://translate.google.com Then click on the right box translation
Okay. Thank you. Now I only have to figure out what a "#8 American sewing machine" is.
Wow, they compared the GORRE AND DAPHETID to the Horyuji Temple!
.
Do they think that we westerners worshipped the G&D?
Did we?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
A "#8 American sewing machine" is:
As you already know, 4-4-0 (Mantua) for No.8 locomotive, 0-4-0T (Varney-diecast) for No.9, 0-4-0T (PFM / Sakura) for No.10 is there. This author wrote that the No.8 is "number 8 engine, which is American (4-4-0)," on the premise that the readers know the GD line well. Engine in Japanese is also expressed as machine. And generally speaking, machine means sewing machine only. It was just a dreadful Google translation.
How does he know if they are actually G&D engines? There does not appear to be any lettering on them and the G&D engines were lettered. Plus the G&D engines had steps added under the cab doors, which these models lack. The couplers don't have trip pins and there are the curious holes in the headlights.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Oh! Horyuji-Temple!
The mural painting in National Treasure painted in the 7th century were destroyed by fire in 1949 and the debris was preserved safely.
In Japan, it is thought that the GD line is the subject of respect for not only the West but also the world railroad modelers. The photographs were frequently posted on large images in a Japanese magazine named "Railroad Model Hobby (abbreviated as TMS)." It is said that John Allen was pleased because the color image quality surpassed the MR and RMC.
dehusman How does he know if they are actually G&D engines? There does not appear to be any lettering on them and the G&D engines were lettered. Plus the G&D engines had steps added under the cab doors, which these models lack. The couplers don't have trip pins and there are the curious holes in the headlights.
Here is a link to the story on these engines- they are a match to the photos here. Not sure about the missing steps on the one but the bare metal damaged spots are an exact match. (maybe the steps came off in shipping- these poor engines have been through a lot) Even the paint that looks loose has peeled off exactly as it would have naturally. There is an indent in the headlight in one of the older photos. My suspicion is that they got a slight amount of shipping damage- probably wouldn't have affected most locos but these have been through a fire. They were removed from the layout after the fire- all were heavily damaged with most worse than these. There is a link on this page to a gallery of the engines. The http://gdlines.org/GDLines/The_Satchel2.html
I'm dubious, for two reasons. First, our former executive editor, Andy Sperandeo, always referred to the G&D locomotive in his office (which now resides in Model Railroader's historical display case) as the last surviving G&D locomotive. The Japanese website says that these three were "excavated from the burned-out G&D," which doesn't directly contradict Andy's story, but since Andy is no longer with us, we can't ask him for clarification.
Second, the site says "Mr. Matsumoto has three locomotives ... that Mr. John Allen excavated from the burned-out G & D railroad." As we all know, the fire that destroyed the G&D happened after John Allen died. This timeline contradiction could be due to poor translation from the Japanese, or a mistake on the part of Mr. Matsumoto or the blogger. So again, it's not a definitive error. But it does make me doubtful.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Interesting find all the way around. I'm surprised they look that good after surviving a house fire. Damage almost seems purely cosmetic to the paint.
Steven Otte I'm dubious, for two reasons. First, our former executive editor, Andy Sperandeo, always referred to the G&D locomotive in his office (which now resides in Model Railroader's historical display case) as the last surviving G&D locomotive. The Japanese website says that these three were "excavated from the burned-out G&D," which doesn't directly contradict Andy's story, but since Andy is no longer with us, we can't ask him for clarification. Second, the site says "Mr. Matsumoto has three locomotives ... that Mr. John Allen excavated from the burned-out G & D railroad." As we all know, the fire that destroyed the G&D happened after John Allen died. This timeline contradiction could be due to poor translation from the Japanese, or a mistake on the part of Mr. Matsumoto or the blogger. So again, it's not a definitive error. But it does make me doubtful.
Wasn't John's brother still alive? Could that be the Mr. Allen referred to? Still, I share your skepticism.
Could it be that since the locomotives in the satchel surfaced later in 2009 and weren't highly publicized? The ones on Mr Matsumotos site look like exact matches to the the ones found in the satchel. (allowing for a little damage in shipping. Looking at the other locomotives in the "satchel gallery" they look like like matches for the other G&D locos- there is even "ghost lettering" where you can see the remains of the heralds. The poor things have obviously been through a fire and had it not been for their heritage would have been long ago thrown in the trash. Here is a direct link to the gallery- http://gdlines.org/GDLines/Satchel/album/index.html the ones that appear to be a match to Mr Matsumoto's are on the first and second page.I attached a couple of examples
From Mr Matsumoto's page
From the Satchel gallery
Even though the step is missing - the paint matches- bubbled up areas that are bare even match- there is an indent on the headlight where the hole is even. The others look like good matches.
The "Seargent Ennis #8"
From Mr Matsumoto's site
From the Satchel site
Here is an early photo of the General Ennis- it has a baloon stack in this photo
Everything looks to be a match- looking at the domes cab roof etc- the exception is the stack. I was thinking the the Model Railroading with John Allen book it had a photo with the straight stack- I could be wrong- my copy was destroyed from water damage in storage about three years ago (And it had been a little while before that since I had looked at it) Jim
These appear to be the lesser damaged of the lot for comparison here is #49. I know one article mentioned that John always added lead for better pulling power- here is what happened to it
Here is 35 with the alternate tender (the gallery also has one with the shorter one with the booster) you can clearly see the outline of the G&D herald.
Steven on Andy's engine, if I remember the story right, he took it off the layout after John's death and before the fire right? Got to meet Andy a couple of times in the 80's when I was just a teenager and heard a clinic he did then- I think it was on Santa Fe stations. He was a very nice man. Jim
drgwcs These appear to be the lesser damaged of the lot for comparison here is #49. I know one article mentioned that John always added lead for better pulling power- here is what happened to it
Built in display stand!
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
It's hard to tell from the photos, but the G&D used Baker couplers, a loop and hook design, and not knuckles. The 4-4-0 looks a lot like the "Sgt. Ennis" with its peaked cab roof. More than a few people made copies of G&D engines.
http://gdlines.org/GDLines/The_Satchel.html tells about engines recovered from the fire.
Drgwcs linked to that site in an earlier post.
I've been watching this thread, interesting stuff, although until the 80's, when I got back in the hobby for a while, I didn't have a clue who John Allen was, or his G&D railroad.
Do you have more info on who else made models of his locos?
Graham Line It's hard to tell from the photos, but the G&D used Baker couplers, a loop and hook design, and not knuckles. The 4-4-0 looks a lot like the "Sgt. Ennis" with its peaked cab roof. More than a few people made copies of G&D engines. http://gdlines.org/GDLines/The_Satchel.html tells about engines recovered from the fire.
Here is one of the Sgt Ennis from a different angle that shows the Baker on the rear out of the Satchel Gallery. The Bakers were a little different than the other more common loop coupler the Mantua. The Mantua used a flat loop with the flat part parallel to the track. The Baker on the other hand had the loop oriented verticaly. With it done that way from certain angles it looks like a knuckle. The dockside appears to have lost the hook- so it would look like one from the side. with the hook on looking at it close to straight on it the hook's shadow can make it look like a knuckle. I suspect Bakers were fairly uncommon compared to Mantua. I have bought a lot of vintage with Mantuas and various dummies but havent come across a Baker in the flesh.
Baker from the top
Mantua for comparison
As to those that made copies of the G&D locos yes there certainly have been some. Many of the G&D locos were off the shelf like the Varney Docksides and the 4-6-0. I think it is the details that show the difference on these (like the chain on the dockside) There were modifications that John made. The stuff in the satchel shows some of the more custom stuff. 35 was heavily modified by John. Both tenders that were used on this engine are there- one of them has the booster. I would say that the fact that there are so many there that match in the details and modifications it sure seems genuine. Then you add in the fact that they have obviously been in a severe fire (They have pics of the aftermath on the same site) I would think that the possibility of these being mis-identified is pretty low. Mr Matsumoto's pics sure seem to match the ones in the gallery so I am pretty convinced. I think the whole thing was just forgotten for so long and was not really publicized when it was found that is probably why Andy didn't know about it.
Steven;
The sentence "Mr. John Allen excavated from the burned-out G & D railroad" is a mistranslation. Next is by me.
The early 3 locomotive models with the utmost care by John Allen were excavated from the burned-out G&D. They were sent to Mr. Matsumoto this time for the purpose of regeneration.
The occurrence of the fire after John Allen died is common sense of modelers all over the world. However, since nobody can understand the original sentence unless know this episode, it is not unreasonable for the translator to mistranslate.
By the way, I am against the rehabilitation plan. If even though they are genuine, the processed parts by John Allen were burned out. If drop the residue, only the bad original products would leave. Even if a restorator adds decoration that is thought to be done by John, they will be just the copies.
I also share your skepticism as I also recall one surviving the fire and was glad to hear it was safe at Andy's office..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Bingo- Sgt Ennis with a straight stack
Took a little bit of time this evening to look through the original G&D slides on the gdlines.org site. They have high res scans there of John's original slides as well as others (For those that have the CD it is identical content) I looked through and compared the original slides with the photos of the equipment in the satchel gallery there (not just the 3 in Japan but everything)- pretty convincing- everything is spot on all the details are right 100%. I can not imagine replicas being so spot on. Then there is the fact that these were clearly in a massive fire. I understand the scepticism to some extent as these surfaced later and Andy may have not been aware of them. Paul Janssen was supposed to have photographed them- I suspect the photos were never sent on. Sometimes there are disconnects with history.
drgwcsThen there is the fact that these were clearly in a massive fire.
Or "burnt" by a torch? Anybody with basic modeling skills can copy one of John's engines..
Back in the day I added cab handrails (20 thousandth wire) and tank ladder(brass tender ladder from IIRC Kemtron) and coal to my Varney old Lady..This engine was my second steam engine the first being a Penn-Line PRR H-9 that I built from a kit under my Dad's supervision.
I am beginning to wonder if anyone has actually looked through the galleries. 13 different locomotives all matching originals in exacting detail. Look at them- added pickups according to John's patterns, heavily modified engines and tenders not just burned but rusted and long term rust. The kind that came from being doused with water and sitting damaged for a long time. 49 was obviously sitting above an inspection pit when the fire happened why in the world would someone go to that kind of trouble? It is not like they put these up on ebay- they weren't even widely publicized and they are in private hands. There are also additional remnants from the G&D and the GD&H that were donated the Narrow Gauge Preservation Foundation including the remains of the DG&H narrow gauge 0-4-0T combine cattle car and flatcar. (see the March April 2006 NGSL Gazette p90) According to Charlie Getz these were donated by the son of G&D operator Alan Fenton who John's brother Andrew had let take the items home. (don't know if he was the one behind the others)
The real question was if Mr Matsumoto's locomotives matched the ones in the satchel. They match perfectly. I do a tremendous amount of history research and many times additional information surfaces. It has been there, just overlooked because it was only known in a limited area. That is what happened here- Jim
I've been following this thread with interest, as I said before, I'm a novice compared to many in here, as after being away from anything model trains since the 60's, and then getting back into trains in the mid 80's, and now continueing, I never knew, or concrened myself with any of the history of model railroading.
I just like building and running model trains, and all that is involved.
Mr. drgwcs ( Jim) seems very serious in his convictions on these locomotives, and sure has spent time investigating, searching and researching the G&D and Mr. John Allen.
All of this coming to light from the post of Mr. BN7150.
I wouldn't know one of these locomotives from the other, besides the type and looks, nor do I know anything about the G&D, other than what I've read and learned in this, and other forums, and past articles on John Allen, and pictures of his layout.
As somewhat of an outsider, it seems Jim's biggest obstacle is:
Steven OtteI'm dubious, for two reasons. First, our former executive editor, Andy Sperandeo, always referred to the G&D locomotive in his office (which now resides in Model Railroader's historical display case) as the last surviving G&D locomotive. T
I'm sure Mr BN170 is shaking his head too, while Jim continues to bang his head against the brick wall.
Actually, after looking at the referenced websites about the satchel and doing some of my own research I have now moved into the believer category---I think it's more likely than not that those engines are from the G&D. It helps that there really is no motive for someone to lie about the story or create fakes.
My understanding is Andy's locomotive came off the layout prior to the fire. Since the layout salvage efforts were publicized as unsuccessful, he was likely was unaware that a few items had been rescued from the rubble. After all the items in question are not particulary significant and are in horrible shape. The real treasures are John's slides and photos of the operating layout.
Edit: thanks to all who have contributed comments and information. It's great to see the G&D being discussed again. It was highly influential on me, seeing it in RMC and MRR.
SeeYou190 Wow, they compared the GORRE AND DAPHETID to the Horyuji Temple! . Do they think that we westerners worshipped the G&D? . Did we? . -Kevin
Apparently some people did...and still do...
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.