I still remember the day I learned of John Allen's death. I was at the hobby shop buying the current edition of Model Railroader (April 1972, I think) when I saw the black-fringed cover with the photo of John on it. Even though I was pretty new to model railroading then, I knew who he was and had seen many photos of his layout. What a shock that day was!
But though he is one of the few model railroad builders I really revere (Frank Ellison is another, though he was before my time), pretty much everything original that can be said about the man and his creation has been said.
Restoration of these three locos is interesting from a craftsmanship and salvage perspective and to me, nothing more. Whether they were John's or not is of little interest, because even if they were, much of them won't be once refurb is completed.
John and his creation are very nearly 50 years in the past. IMHO it's time to let them rest there, and cherish the memories he created without getting into a fever about small pieces of his world that may remain.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Yep found it.. I was hoping this man had an actual web page... Thanks Mike
Randy
https://www.facebook.com/Great-Divide-Lines-423511918192732/?modal=admin_todo_tour
Great DivideCan somone please post Kenichi Matsumoto's Site address?
Go back to the OP's first post, there's a link, but it needs to be translated. If you use Chrome, it's easy with 1 click.
Mike.
My You Tube
I cold be mistaken but I believe the NMRA museum sent these to Mr Matsumoto to be restored.
drgwcs The "Seargent Ennis #8" From Mr Matsumoto's site
The "Seargent Ennis #8"
From Mr Matsumoto's site
Can somone please post Kenichi Matsumoto's Site address?
BRAKIE drgwcs By the way I agree with the idea that a restoration is probably a bad idea. I'm on the fence here.. Seeing we restore old steam locomotives,old diesels,stations,passenger cars,cabooses etc why not a model from a famous model railroad? If one was restored where would it be place for public viewing or should it be sent to MR or the NMRA headquarters for safe keeping? I don't know. On the other hand why bother since it wouldn't be John's work? Again I don't know.
drgwcs By the way I agree with the idea that a restoration is probably a bad idea.
I'm on the fence here..
Seeing we restore old steam locomotives,old diesels,stations,passenger cars,cabooses etc why not a model from a famous model railroad?
If one was restored where would it be place for public viewing or should it be sent to MR or the NMRA headquarters for safe keeping?
I don't know.
On the other hand why bother since it wouldn't be John's work?
Again I don't know.
The article by Charlie Getz in the Jm 2006 gazette said that Alen Fenton that donated the remains of the DG&H 0-4-0T combine, flatcar and cattlecar to the narrow gauge presrvation society had donated some other items to the NMRA. Whether if this is the items in the satchel or other items I don't know- the article didn't detail what they were. I would imagine this would have been added to the things for the long delayed Howell Day/ Magic of Model Railroading exhibit???
Even if they were restored to exactly how they were before, they wouldn't be John's work. So better to keep them as artifacts. There are plenty of copies of G&D equipment that are quite good, those are the ones that should be displayed to show what the locomotives looked like in all their Gorre.
drgwcsBy the way I agree with the idea that a restoration is probably a bad idea.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE Guys,Here's what bothers me about those so called satchel survivors. Back in the day steam locomotives was either Zamak or brass. Zamak melts around 700 degrees fahrenheit while brass melts around 1700 degrees fahrenheit.. I doubt if any Varney Zamak engine would survive a house fire. I require more proof that these satchel engines are indeed John's. BTW..While I was never a big fan of John and his G&D, I was still sadden to hear of his death and the house fire that destroyed the G&D.
Guys,Here's what bothers me about those so called satchel survivors.
Back in the day steam locomotives was either Zamak or brass. Zamak melts around 700 degrees fahrenheit while brass melts around 1700 degrees fahrenheit..
I doubt if any Varney Zamak engine would survive a house fire.
I require more proof that these satchel engines are indeed John's.
BTW..While I was never a big fan of John and his G&D, I was still sadden to hear of his death and the house fire that destroyed the G&D.
From what I have been able to find out there were some areas that were damaged worse than others. The pictures taken after the fire are all in black and white (on the site too) so it is very hard to tell the exact damage. Several of the crew tried to salvage the French Gulch section as it had taken comparitively little damage. It collapsed not because of fire damage but because of how it was constructed. It wasn't designed to be moved. Where would these engines been at? Nobody knows? Some are clearly more damaged than others. The only one that we might be able to take a guess at was 49- that one appears to have been parked over an inspection pit. There are quite a few from the roster that are missing from the bag too- those may have been completely destroyed.
By the way I agree with the idea that a restoration is probably a bad idea. It would be interesting though if perhaps they could get them running- however that might be even more complicated than a physical restoration.
I think the best option, in my own opinion is to preform a interior restoration of the guts, and leave the exterior intact.
Just my two cents.
"No one realizes how beautiful it is to travel until he comes home and rests his head on his old, familiar pillow." -Lin Yutang
-
I enjoyed the links above, because I came back into MR in the 80's and while John Armstrong was referenced, I don't remember any specific articles and there was no Internet to look up pictures.
In most of collecting, you shouldn't attempt to refinish or recondition most collectables. That's not alway true. There are "restorations" that take an inferior example of a very collectable item, and make it better than new.
The "provenance" is that these locos were "John Allen's" They were never Rivet counter models.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Sorry guys if I seemed or got a bit testy- I didn't mean to. To be honest I looked at the slides for comparison last night to unwind at the end of a 12 hour day. Just been back to the house of a man that is passing away. Went to post the prayer request on Facebook and it has me locked out. Fought it for an hour. Kind of a difficult couple of days.
As for the G&D it was a real inspiration to me as a young modeler. I think I wore the Wescott book out and had it memorized. When I saw the story about the satchel a couple of years ago I was amazed at it. I was going to throw this up on the G&D group on Facebook for further documentation and info to help because I heard they had mentioned it but since I cant get into Facebook.........oh well. I guess we model railroaders are a bull headed lot....... I just hope they don't ship us out in a "Bulline" stock car (G&D fans will get the reference)
After seeing more of the pictures of locomotives and reading more of the origin story, I am now inclined to believe that they are original G&D engines. I would think that restoring them would be a "bad" idea. Being in fire could have damaged them enough that restoration could have harmed effects on the cast metal. So much would have to be replaced on the fire damaged models that it might be easier to start with a contemporary engine, rebuild it to the G&D look and keep the original as an artifact.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
SeeYou190 Wow, they compared the GORRE AND DAPHETID to the Horyuji Temple! . Do they think that we westerners worshipped the G&D? . Did we? . -Kevin
Wow, they compared the GORRE AND DAPHETID to the Horyuji Temple!
.
Do they think that we westerners worshipped the G&D?
Did we?
-Kevin
Apparently some people did...and still do...
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Actually, after looking at the referenced websites about the satchel and doing some of my own research I have now moved into the believer category---I think it's more likely than not that those engines are from the G&D. It helps that there really is no motive for someone to lie about the story or create fakes.
My understanding is Andy's locomotive came off the layout prior to the fire. Since the layout salvage efforts were publicized as unsuccessful, he was likely was unaware that a few items had been rescued from the rubble. After all the items in question are not particulary significant and are in horrible shape. The real treasures are John's slides and photos of the operating layout.
Edit: thanks to all who have contributed comments and information. It's great to see the G&D being discussed again. It was highly influential on me, seeing it in RMC and MRR.
I've been following this thread with interest, as I said before, I'm a novice compared to many in here, as after being away from anything model trains since the 60's, and then getting back into trains in the mid 80's, and now continueing, I never knew, or concrened myself with any of the history of model railroading.
I just like building and running model trains, and all that is involved.
Mr. drgwcs ( Jim) seems very serious in his convictions on these locomotives, and sure has spent time investigating, searching and researching the G&D and Mr. John Allen.
All of this coming to light from the post of Mr. BN7150.
I wouldn't know one of these locomotives from the other, besides the type and looks, nor do I know anything about the G&D, other than what I've read and learned in this, and other forums, and past articles on John Allen, and pictures of his layout.
As somewhat of an outsider, it seems Jim's biggest obstacle is:
Steven OtteI'm dubious, for two reasons. First, our former executive editor, Andy Sperandeo, always referred to the G&D locomotive in his office (which now resides in Model Railroader's historical display case) as the last surviving G&D locomotive. T
I'm sure Mr BN170 is shaking his head too, while Jim continues to bang his head against the brick wall.
I am beginning to wonder if anyone has actually looked through the galleries. 13 different locomotives all matching originals in exacting detail. Look at them- added pickups according to John's patterns, heavily modified engines and tenders not just burned but rusted and long term rust. The kind that came from being doused with water and sitting damaged for a long time. 49 was obviously sitting above an inspection pit when the fire happened why in the world would someone go to that kind of trouble? It is not like they put these up on ebay- they weren't even widely publicized and they are in private hands. There are also additional remnants from the G&D and the GD&H that were donated the Narrow Gauge Preservation Foundation including the remains of the DG&H narrow gauge 0-4-0T combine cattle car and flatcar. (see the March April 2006 NGSL Gazette p90) According to Charlie Getz these were donated by the son of G&D operator Alan Fenton who John's brother Andrew had let take the items home. (don't know if he was the one behind the others)
The real question was if Mr Matsumoto's locomotives matched the ones in the satchel. They match perfectly. I do a tremendous amount of history research and many times additional information surfaces. It has been there, just overlooked because it was only known in a limited area. That is what happened here- Jim
drgwcsThen there is the fact that these were clearly in a massive fire.
Or "burnt" by a torch? Anybody with basic modeling skills can copy one of John's engines..
Back in the day I added cab handrails (20 thousandth wire) and tank ladder(brass tender ladder from IIRC Kemtron) and coal to my Varney old Lady..This engine was my second steam engine the first being a Penn-Line PRR H-9 that I built from a kit under my Dad's supervision.
Bingo- Sgt Ennis with a straight stack
Took a little bit of time this evening to look through the original G&D slides on the gdlines.org site. They have high res scans there of John's original slides as well as others (For those that have the CD it is identical content) I looked through and compared the original slides with the photos of the equipment in the satchel gallery there (not just the 3 in Japan but everything)- pretty convincing- everything is spot on all the details are right 100%. I can not imagine replicas being so spot on. Then there is the fact that these were clearly in a massive fire. I understand the scepticism to some extent as these surfaced later and Andy may have not been aware of them. Paul Janssen was supposed to have photographed them- I suspect the photos were never sent on. Sometimes there are disconnects with history.
Steven Otte I'm dubious, for two reasons. First, our former executive editor, Andy Sperandeo, always referred to the G&D locomotive in his office (which now resides in Model Railroader's historical display case) as the last surviving G&D locomotive. The Japanese website says that these three were "excavated from the burned-out G&D," which doesn't directly contradict Andy's story, but since Andy is no longer with us, we can't ask him for clarification. Second, the site says "Mr. Matsumoto has three locomotives ... that Mr. John Allen excavated from the burned-out G & D railroad." As we all know, the fire that destroyed the G&D happened after John Allen died. This timeline contradiction could be due to poor translation from the Japanese, or a mistake on the part of Mr. Matsumoto or the blogger. So again, it's not a definitive error. But it does make me doubtful.
I'm dubious, for two reasons. First, our former executive editor, Andy Sperandeo, always referred to the G&D locomotive in his office (which now resides in Model Railroader's historical display case) as the last surviving G&D locomotive. The Japanese website says that these three were "excavated from the burned-out G&D," which doesn't directly contradict Andy's story, but since Andy is no longer with us, we can't ask him for clarification.
Second, the site says "Mr. Matsumoto has three locomotives ... that Mr. John Allen excavated from the burned-out G & D railroad." As we all know, the fire that destroyed the G&D happened after John Allen died. This timeline contradiction could be due to poor translation from the Japanese, or a mistake on the part of Mr. Matsumoto or the blogger. So again, it's not a definitive error. But it does make me doubtful.
I also share your skepticism as I also recall one surviving the fire and was glad to hear it was safe at Andy's office..
Steven;
The sentence "Mr. John Allen excavated from the burned-out G & D railroad" is a mistranslation. Next is by me.
The early 3 locomotive models with the utmost care by John Allen were excavated from the burned-out G&D. They were sent to Mr. Matsumoto this time for the purpose of regeneration.
The occurrence of the fire after John Allen died is common sense of modelers all over the world. However, since nobody can understand the original sentence unless know this episode, it is not unreasonable for the translator to mistranslate.
By the way, I am against the rehabilitation plan. If even though they are genuine, the processed parts by John Allen were burned out. If drop the residue, only the bad original products would leave. Even if a restorator adds decoration that is thought to be done by John, they will be just the copies.
Graham Line It's hard to tell from the photos, but the G&D used Baker couplers, a loop and hook design, and not knuckles. The 4-4-0 looks a lot like the "Sgt. Ennis" with its peaked cab roof. More than a few people made copies of G&D engines. http://gdlines.org/GDLines/The_Satchel.html tells about engines recovered from the fire.
It's hard to tell from the photos, but the G&D used Baker couplers, a loop and hook design, and not knuckles. The 4-4-0 looks a lot like the "Sgt. Ennis" with its peaked cab roof. More than a few people made copies of G&D engines.
http://gdlines.org/GDLines/The_Satchel.html tells about engines recovered from the fire.
Here is one of the Sgt Ennis from a different angle that shows the Baker on the rear out of the Satchel Gallery. The Bakers were a little different than the other more common loop coupler the Mantua. The Mantua used a flat loop with the flat part parallel to the track. The Baker on the other hand had the loop oriented verticaly. With it done that way from certain angles it looks like a knuckle. The dockside appears to have lost the hook- so it would look like one from the side. with the hook on looking at it close to straight on it the hook's shadow can make it look like a knuckle. I suspect Bakers were fairly uncommon compared to Mantua. I have bought a lot of vintage with Mantuas and various dummies but havent come across a Baker in the flesh.
Baker from the top
Mantua for comparison
As to those that made copies of the G&D locos yes there certainly have been some. Many of the G&D locos were off the shelf like the Varney Docksides and the 4-6-0. I think it is the details that show the difference on these (like the chain on the dockside) There were modifications that John made. The stuff in the satchel shows some of the more custom stuff. 35 was heavily modified by John. Both tenders that were used on this engine are there- one of them has the booster. I would say that the fact that there are so many there that match in the details and modifications it sure seems genuine. Then you add in the fact that they have obviously been in a severe fire (They have pics of the aftermath on the same site) I would think that the possibility of these being mis-identified is pretty low. Mr Matsumoto's pics sure seem to match the ones in the gallery so I am pretty convinced. I think the whole thing was just forgotten for so long and was not really publicized when it was found that is probably why Andy didn't know about it.
Drgwcs linked to that site in an earlier post.
I've been watching this thread, interesting stuff, although until the 80's, when I got back in the hobby for a while, I didn't have a clue who John Allen was, or his G&D railroad.
Do you have more info on who else made models of his locos?
drgwcs These appear to be the lesser damaged of the lot for comparison here is #49. I know one article mentioned that John always added lead for better pulling power- here is what happened to it
These appear to be the lesser damaged of the lot for comparison here is #49. I know one article mentioned that John always added lead for better pulling power- here is what happened to it
Built in display stand!
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
Steven on Andy's engine, if I remember the story right, he took it off the layout after John's death and before the fire right? Got to meet Andy a couple of times in the 80's when I was just a teenager and heard a clinic he did then- I think it was on Santa Fe stations. He was a very nice man. Jim
Here is 35 with the alternate tender (the gallery also has one with the shorter one with the booster) you can clearly see the outline of the G&D herald.
From the Satchel site
Here is an early photo of the General Ennis- it has a baloon stack in this photo
Everything looks to be a match- looking at the domes cab roof etc- the exception is the stack. I was thinking the the Model Railroading with John Allen book it had a photo with the straight stack- I could be wrong- my copy was destroyed from water damage in storage about three years ago (And it had been a little while before that since I had looked at it) Jim