Despite the issues with the Walthers LPG and AA tank cars, I take special pride in building them from scratch. There's a level of challenge in building from kits. I don't regret making them.
Between the two, I much prefer RTR.
The big sellers now in the premium are the Westerfield but those are resin. I used to repair the wood kits, got a good selection of shapes and brass but as the RTR got cheaper and better, I don't do that anymore.
About 15 or so years ago I started to notice at swap meet type train shows that I was seeing a sudden availability of partially completed wood kits (LaBelle passenger cars, Ambroid kits, various structures). Some were of the more "simple" wood variety such as Silver Streak. Some were nicely done to the point they were set aside. Some were botched from the git-go and likely abandoned. And unfortunately some were incompletely built AND the rest of the materials (and instructions) were missing.
That phenomenon slowed down and it is now rare to see many such wood kit "wounded warriors." I do see unbuilt wood kits (although it can be a spotty and unrepresentative selection) and completed wood kits (lots of cabooses for some reason) at swap meets but not the partly complete ones. I am not exactly sure what conclusions can be drawn from this but I think it is fair to say that the generation most enthused about wood kits has: switched materials (a la Dr. Wayne), or can no longer meet the demands of eyesight and steady hand that wood kits involve and long ago discarded their projects mid-point and have no more to start or sell off (a la, well .... me), or that those still active with wood kits have their supply of them and are lucky enough to be in good enough shape to do justice to them and have no need to dump their abandoned kits on the swap meet marketplace (a la Howard Zane).
Another thing I notice is that the array of after-market detail parts that are available (a shrinking selection I fear) are most suited to streamlined (and hence plastic or brass) passenger cars, and the more modern (hence plastic) freight cars. There are exceptions of course - Tichy has parts suited to older freight cars. Those who like wood freight car kits used to have lots more choices for superdetailing parts, or at least it seems like that to me.
Dave Nelson
Interesting to see the mention of partially done kits. I'm primarily a modern modeler but I saw an EJ&E Silver Streak for about $10 on the bay so I went for it. I realize that with it's prepainted wood sides it's not a full "craftsman" experience. I'm enjoying the process so far and it's a nice change of pace, but it does not fill me with the desire to do more or make me feel that something is missing in the hobby by these sort of kits not really being present much anymore.
Some folks will bemoan the RtR aspect of the hobby but take a second and look back at all but the very best layouts from when wood and metal crasftsman kits were the norm. I think they're great but the truth is that they are just not up to today's standards for detail. The hobby as a whole moved toward plastic production not just for ease but to achieve a more prototypical level detail while still maintaining some relative level of affordability. Further, the hobby is not lacking for a variety of acitvities and hands-on aspects in terms of painting and weathering, scenery, superdetailing, kitbashing, etc...
Take this as a grain of salt as I'm the sort of simple fellow for whom BB kits and box-shaking is my preferred speed and level of accuracy, and I do mostly 80's and 90's. Still I really think that for all but the best modelers with the most amount of time it's difficult to have primarily craftsman kits on one's rails and layout and also keep up with the the kind of rivet-counting prototypical detail that the current hobby leans towards.
Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad for Chicago Trainspotting and Budget Model Railroading.
Yes there used to be lots more detail parts but some of those were less than bad. Howard should do this but I will start. I liked the Central Valley kits but to be honest they had a nice body but the grabs were way oversised and some of the other detail parts were chunky, the trucks were nice but the trouble with sprung trucks were the springs were oversised and they are not as free rolling. The brake wheel was especially chunky.
Howard's built up freight cars are indeed fantastic.
For myself, I lack time (boys approaching college, and one working his rear end off to hopefully pitch beyond college), patience and skills to do that. I was ruined by building several of the Intermountain 40' boxcar and reefer kits years ago...kinda burned me out on kit building...it just did.
I buy rtr, and repair details if/when needed, or occasionally add a couple minor details. Hate to say it, but making handrail repairs in metal with replacement metal stanchions (Precision Scale) and touching up paint is about the extent of my "modeling" efforts.
John
My first HO kits were an assortment of Strombecker kits, a Mike, couple box cars, and a coach. wood frames, printed card sides, NOT craftsman kits. I've been through Silver Streak, Ambroid, some I don't remember the companies. DEFINITLEY enjoyed them more than RTR, even if not as prototypical. But the ability to say "I made that!" was important to me. Today, after building Suydam card and courregated metal buildings, plastic craftsman kits, so many others, scratchbuilding with all kinds of materials, and even doing a lot of crosskitting and modifying-like say Athearn Blue Box streamlined Combine, three section articulated diner, two section articulated coach, Dome-observation, I STILL prefer to do at least SOME building. But, like the second part of an Ambroid 1-5000 pulpwood car, working with small, fine parts IS getting to be a bit difficult, even if it DID aid me with recovery from a stroke 15 years ago. I still have a number of the Ambroid kits, and they WILL get built, (except one,I DID buy TWO of those pulpwood cars when I was younge and foolisher!)but first I have to finish the Suncoast F-M coaling station-5/64 angles and 1/32 square stock HAS become a bit hard to work with, sometimes to even SEE. Another little bit of fun with wood models, back in high school, I built a Canda flat car (wood, 8 truss rods) and a couple years ago, built another. Amazing how much better one gets over the years.
I am in this Hobby over 55 years now and I have seen how it changed quite dramatically. In the "old" days, scratch- or kitbuilding was much more common than it is theses days. I have also noticed, that there are occasional sentiments against people who prefer RTR by those "serious" model railroaders. Without intending to go into that discussionj, we should not forget that it was the RTR manufacturers who brought this hobby forward.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
Tinplate ToddlerWithout intending to go into that discussionj, we should not forget that it was the RTR manufacturers who brought this hobby forward.
In S and O scale it is the Toy Train side of the hobby making nicely detailed RTR models that has kept the Scale side of S and O alive. Some of these are provided with a scale wheel version, others have conversion kits.
Paul
Paul,
Yup....good point, but my origianal thread was about what many are missing by not building their models, and it was never meant to be gospel...only my opinion. Currently the bar has been raised to where rarely a kit-built or scratch- built model can compete detail wise with a factory made model. I fully understand this and admire the magnificence of today's RTR offerings. I just enjoy the pride in having built my trains (except locos). I'm not tryng to impress anyone with my wood models....today an impossible task as I can clearly state that in my 1500 (average) visitors per year, possbly only half of one percent would take notice.
I grew up with Lionel as did my dad. His pike was wonderful, huge, and had had great scenery, but all of his trains were RTR Lionel. Later on he did build some Walthers O scale kits, and two locos.....a Lobough Challenger, and a Varney 4-6-0. I remember well his shear enjoyment in doing so, but he did complain about the time it took.
Wood kits are kinda like Weston fiqures, have a certain caricature to them, I was going that direction but the super detail of many of todays RTR won me over.
Howard Zanemy original thread was about what many are missing by not building their models
You know it but I suppose those who don't know what they are missing are none the wiser. I've gotten to travel to some magnificant places and seem some spectacular sites and could say the same thing for people who never get out of the area they are living, that they are really missing out on something great. Some can't because of economic circumstances, or maybe ignorance.
But even so, kit building may not be for everyone. It does take dexterity, patience and it needs to be enjoyable, and those are factors not everyone has or finds to be true. While I haven't built wooden train kits, I've built challenging train kits with lots of tiny parts. Some satisfaction yes, but not necessarily that enjoyable for me. More of a means to an end. I've built other things of wood like an RC airplane with all it's spares and bulkheads. Not so great if that labor of love goes out and crashes.
It seems when someone finds something they like and is satisfying and they are proud of, they expect others should too and maybe not understand why other don't always agree. It can be like that for all kinds of things. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so is kit building.
Perhaps a topic like this is a search for kindred souls or like minded people, even validation (probably not the latter)?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Travel, if you do enough it all kinda seems the same.
rrebell Travel, if you do enough it all kinda seems the same.
When I traveled for work, yeah. But at other times, no way. It really depends. And like anything, balance is important to enjoyment.
riogrande5761 Howard Zane my original thread was about what many are missing by not building their models You know it but I suppose those who don't know what they are missing are none the wiser. I've gotten to travel to some magnificant places and seem some spectacular sites and could say the same thing for people who never get out of the area they are living, that they are really missing out on something great. Some can't because of economic circumstances, or maybe ignorance. But even so, kit building may not be for everyone. It does take dexterity, patience and it needs to be enjoyable, and those are factors not everyone has or finds to be true. While I haven't built wooden train kits, I've built challenging train kits with lots of tiny parts. Some satisfaction yes, but not necessarily that enjoyable for me. More of a means to an end. I've built other things of wood like an RC airplane with all it's spares and bulkheads. Not so great if that labor of love goes out and crashes. It seems when someone finds something they like and is satisfying and they are proud of, they expect others should too and maybe not understand why other don't always agree. It can be like that for all kinds of things. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so is kit building. Perhaps a topic like this is a search for kindred souls or like minded people, even validation (probably not the latter)?
Howard Zane my original thread was about what many are missing by not building their models
Jim,
I know we don't agree about a lot of stuff, but I think you are spot on here.
Some people are going to like building kits, some are not. Some will excel at those skills, some will not.
The last 20-25 years are really the first time someone could be reasonably serious about HO and not be a "kit builder" of rolling stock. That has been good for the hobby overall.
I like building kits, but I also like running trains......
I'm not retired yet, time is an issue. So I balance RTR, easy kits, and craftsman kits to meet my specific modeling goals. But I also see it as an issue of balancing the various activities that are part of the hobby.
As you know, I'm not always real fussy about extreem accuracy, I'm more a "big picture" kind of modeler. Tried being real fussy years ago - stopped having fun.
Which also speaks to the "different strokes for different folks" aspect of this topic.
After 50 years at this hobby, I know what I like and what I don't. I don't need Howard, or anyone, suggesting I would be happier building more kits, using DCC, having sound in my locos, buying more brass locos, using more expensive track, keeping my benchwork shallow, or a host of other things some people think is better. I have tried all of that and rejected it - just ask me......if you really want to know why.....
I know, I too am opinionated, ask a question, I will tell you what works for me and why. Take it or leave it.
Howard is a great guy and a most talented modeler, I have met him and seen his layout.
And obviously the craftsman side of the hobby is his passion.
This hobby is so diverse, it is many different things to many different kinds of people. Working in the hobby shop taught me that 5 decades ago.
Travel? Interesting comparison, not sure I got the whole point there. I've never been to California, or to Europe, or any foreign country. And if we are just talkng about seeing sites, or scenery, I'm not sure the cost in time or money would be justified for me.
Sure, there are some place I have not been that interest me, but life is full of choices and priorities.
Ignorance?, as in it's true definetion of "lack of knowledge"? Well I know about a lot of things and places, I like and study history, but going to see them is just not as important as lots of other things.
One last story in a long post. My wife is not as well traveled as me, but neither of us had ever been to Niagara Falls. So a couple years back we took a long weekend and jumped in the car with our never been used passports and headed north.
When we arrived, my wife spent exactly 4 hours looking at the river rapids and the falls, learning enough of the history, and getting a feel for the town of Niagara. We had a nice meal in a simple Italian restaurant we found.
The next morning she announced she had seen enough and was ready to go elsewhere and see other things, she would not even go to the Canadian side.
We then went to the Pierce Arrow Motor Car Museum in Buffalo, the Corning Glass Works in Corning, a little place called the National Warplane Museum in Geneseo, NY (where I got see and climb in a real WWII Boeing B-17), all on our drive home.
She had a great time, and really liked the airplane museum and car museum.
The Falls apparently did not live up to the hype for her.......the Grand Canyon may not as well.......
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALAfter 50 years at this hobby, I know what I like and what I don't. I don't need Howard, or anyone, suggesting I would be happier building more kits, using DCC, having sound in my locos, buying more brass locos, using more expensive track, keeping my benchwork shallow, or a host of other things some people think is better. I have tried all of that and rejected it - just ask me......if you really want to know why.....
After 64 years in the hobby I couldn't agree more.. I just recently purchase a United Models Santa Fe 1950 Class 2-8-0 that still has its Pittman 70 motor so,I will be returning to DC for my next switching layout which will probably based on a end of a branch line industries and will include a station and water tank.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"