ATLANTIC CENTRALAfter 50 years at this hobby, I know what I like and what I don't. I don't need Howard, or anyone, suggesting I would be happier building more kits, using DCC, having sound in my locos, buying more brass locos, using more expensive track, keeping my benchwork shallow, or a host of other things some people think is better. I have tried all of that and rejected it - just ask me......if you really want to know why.....
After 64 years in the hobby I couldn't agree more.. I just recently purchase a United Models Santa Fe 1950 Class 2-8-0 that still has its Pittman 70 motor so,I will be returning to DC for my next switching layout which will probably based on a end of a branch line industries and will include a station and water tank.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
riogrande5761 Howard Zane my original thread was about what many are missing by not building their models You know it but I suppose those who don't know what they are missing are none the wiser. I've gotten to travel to some magnificant places and seem some spectacular sites and could say the same thing for people who never get out of the area they are living, that they are really missing out on something great. Some can't because of economic circumstances, or maybe ignorance. But even so, kit building may not be for everyone. It does take dexterity, patience and it needs to be enjoyable, and those are factors not everyone has or finds to be true. While I haven't built wooden train kits, I've built challenging train kits with lots of tiny parts. Some satisfaction yes, but not necessarily that enjoyable for me. More of a means to an end. I've built other things of wood like an RC airplane with all it's spares and bulkheads. Not so great if that labor of love goes out and crashes. It seems when someone finds something they like and is satisfying and they are proud of, they expect others should too and maybe not understand why other don't always agree. It can be like that for all kinds of things. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so is kit building. Perhaps a topic like this is a search for kindred souls or like minded people, even validation (probably not the latter)?
Howard Zane my original thread was about what many are missing by not building their models
You know it but I suppose those who don't know what they are missing are none the wiser. I've gotten to travel to some magnificant places and seem some spectacular sites and could say the same thing for people who never get out of the area they are living, that they are really missing out on something great. Some can't because of economic circumstances, or maybe ignorance.
But even so, kit building may not be for everyone. It does take dexterity, patience and it needs to be enjoyable, and those are factors not everyone has or finds to be true. While I haven't built wooden train kits, I've built challenging train kits with lots of tiny parts. Some satisfaction yes, but not necessarily that enjoyable for me. More of a means to an end. I've built other things of wood like an RC airplane with all it's spares and bulkheads. Not so great if that labor of love goes out and crashes.
It seems when someone finds something they like and is satisfying and they are proud of, they expect others should too and maybe not understand why other don't always agree. It can be like that for all kinds of things. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so is kit building.
Perhaps a topic like this is a search for kindred souls or like minded people, even validation (probably not the latter)?
Jim,
I know we don't agree about a lot of stuff, but I think you are spot on here.
Some people are going to like building kits, some are not. Some will excel at those skills, some will not.
The last 20-25 years are really the first time someone could be reasonably serious about HO and not be a "kit builder" of rolling stock. That has been good for the hobby overall.
I like building kits, but I also like running trains......
I'm not retired yet, time is an issue. So I balance RTR, easy kits, and craftsman kits to meet my specific modeling goals. But I also see it as an issue of balancing the various activities that are part of the hobby.
As you know, I'm not always real fussy about extreem accuracy, I'm more a "big picture" kind of modeler. Tried being real fussy years ago - stopped having fun.
Which also speaks to the "different strokes for different folks" aspect of this topic.
After 50 years at this hobby, I know what I like and what I don't. I don't need Howard, or anyone, suggesting I would be happier building more kits, using DCC, having sound in my locos, buying more brass locos, using more expensive track, keeping my benchwork shallow, or a host of other things some people think is better. I have tried all of that and rejected it - just ask me......if you really want to know why.....
I know, I too am opinionated, ask a question, I will tell you what works for me and why. Take it or leave it.
Howard is a great guy and a most talented modeler, I have met him and seen his layout.
And obviously the craftsman side of the hobby is his passion.
This hobby is so diverse, it is many different things to many different kinds of people. Working in the hobby shop taught me that 5 decades ago.
Travel? Interesting comparison, not sure I got the whole point there. I've never been to California, or to Europe, or any foreign country. And if we are just talkng about seeing sites, or scenery, I'm not sure the cost in time or money would be justified for me.
Sure, there are some place I have not been that interest me, but life is full of choices and priorities.
Ignorance?, as in it's true definetion of "lack of knowledge"? Well I know about a lot of things and places, I like and study history, but going to see them is just not as important as lots of other things.
One last story in a long post. My wife is not as well traveled as me, but neither of us had ever been to Niagara Falls. So a couple years back we took a long weekend and jumped in the car with our never been used passports and headed north.
When we arrived, my wife spent exactly 4 hours looking at the river rapids and the falls, learning enough of the history, and getting a feel for the town of Niagara. We had a nice meal in a simple Italian restaurant we found.
The next morning she announced she had seen enough and was ready to go elsewhere and see other things, she would not even go to the Canadian side.
We then went to the Pierce Arrow Motor Car Museum in Buffalo, the Corning Glass Works in Corning, a little place called the National Warplane Museum in Geneseo, NY (where I got see and climb in a real WWII Boeing B-17), all on our drive home.
She had a great time, and really liked the airplane museum and car museum.
The Falls apparently did not live up to the hype for her.......the Grand Canyon may not as well.......
Sheldon
rrebell Travel, if you do enough it all kinda seems the same.
Travel, if you do enough it all kinda seems the same.
When I traveled for work, yeah. But at other times, no way. It really depends. And like anything, balance is important to enjoyment.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Howard Zanemy original thread was about what many are missing by not building their models
Wood kits are kinda like Weston fiqures, have a certain caricature to them, I was going that direction but the super detail of many of todays RTR won me over.
Paul,
Yup....good point, but my origianal thread was about what many are missing by not building their models, and it was never meant to be gospel...only my opinion. Currently the bar has been raised to where rarely a kit-built or scratch- built model can compete detail wise with a factory made model. I fully understand this and admire the magnificence of today's RTR offerings. I just enjoy the pride in having built my trains (except locos). I'm not tryng to impress anyone with my wood models....today an impossible task as I can clearly state that in my 1500 (average) visitors per year, possbly only half of one percent would take notice.
I grew up with Lionel as did my dad. His pike was wonderful, huge, and had had great scenery, but all of his trains were RTR Lionel. Later on he did build some Walthers O scale kits, and two locos.....a Lobough Challenger, and a Varney 4-6-0. I remember well his shear enjoyment in doing so, but he did complain about the time it took.
Tinplate ToddlerWithout intending to go into that discussionj, we should not forget that it was the RTR manufacturers who brought this hobby forward.
In S and O scale it is the Toy Train side of the hobby making nicely detailed RTR models that has kept the Scale side of S and O alive. Some of these are provided with a scale wheel version, others have conversion kits.
Paul
I am in this Hobby over 55 years now and I have seen how it changed quite dramatically. In the "old" days, scratch- or kitbuilding was much more common than it is theses days. I have also noticed, that there are occasional sentiments against people who prefer RTR by those "serious" model railroaders. Without intending to go into that discussionj, we should not forget that it was the RTR manufacturers who brought this hobby forward.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
My first HO kits were an assortment of Strombecker kits, a Mike, couple box cars, and a coach. wood frames, printed card sides, NOT craftsman kits. I've been through Silver Streak, Ambroid, some I don't remember the companies. DEFINITLEY enjoyed them more than RTR, even if not as prototypical. But the ability to say "I made that!" was important to me. Today, after building Suydam card and courregated metal buildings, plastic craftsman kits, so many others, scratchbuilding with all kinds of materials, and even doing a lot of crosskitting and modifying-like say Athearn Blue Box streamlined Combine, three section articulated diner, two section articulated coach, Dome-observation, I STILL prefer to do at least SOME building. But, like the second part of an Ambroid 1-5000 pulpwood car, working with small, fine parts IS getting to be a bit difficult, even if it DID aid me with recovery from a stroke 15 years ago. I still have a number of the Ambroid kits, and they WILL get built, (except one,I DID buy TWO of those pulpwood cars when I was younge and foolisher!)but first I have to finish the Suncoast F-M coaling station-5/64 angles and 1/32 square stock HAS become a bit hard to work with, sometimes to even SEE. Another little bit of fun with wood models, back in high school, I built a Canda flat car (wood, 8 truss rods) and a couple years ago, built another. Amazing how much better one gets over the years.
Howard's built up freight cars are indeed fantastic.
For myself, I lack time (boys approaching college, and one working his rear end off to hopefully pitch beyond college), patience and skills to do that. I was ruined by building several of the Intermountain 40' boxcar and reefer kits years ago...kinda burned me out on kit building...it just did.
I buy rtr, and repair details if/when needed, or occasionally add a couple minor details. Hate to say it, but making handrail repairs in metal with replacement metal stanchions (Precision Scale) and touching up paint is about the extent of my "modeling" efforts.
John
Yes there used to be lots more detail parts but some of those were less than bad. Howard should do this but I will start. I liked the Central Valley kits but to be honest they had a nice body but the grabs were way oversised and some of the other detail parts were chunky, the trucks were nice but the trouble with sprung trucks were the springs were oversised and they are not as free rolling. The brake wheel was especially chunky.
Interesting to see the mention of partially done kits. I'm primarily a modern modeler but I saw an EJ&E Silver Streak for about $10 on the bay so I went for it. I realize that with it's prepainted wood sides it's not a full "craftsman" experience. I'm enjoying the process so far and it's a nice change of pace, but it does not fill me with the desire to do more or make me feel that something is missing in the hobby by these sort of kits not really being present much anymore.
Some folks will bemoan the RtR aspect of the hobby but take a second and look back at all but the very best layouts from when wood and metal crasftsman kits were the norm. I think they're great but the truth is that they are just not up to today's standards for detail. The hobby as a whole moved toward plastic production not just for ease but to achieve a more prototypical level detail while still maintaining some relative level of affordability. Further, the hobby is not lacking for a variety of acitvities and hands-on aspects in terms of painting and weathering, scenery, superdetailing, kitbashing, etc...
Take this as a grain of salt as I'm the sort of simple fellow for whom BB kits and box-shaking is my preferred speed and level of accuracy, and I do mostly 80's and 90's. Still I really think that for all but the best modelers with the most amount of time it's difficult to have primarily craftsman kits on one's rails and layout and also keep up with the the kind of rivet-counting prototypical detail that the current hobby leans towards.
Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad for Chicago Trainspotting and Budget Model Railroading.
About 15 or so years ago I started to notice at swap meet type train shows that I was seeing a sudden availability of partially completed wood kits (LaBelle passenger cars, Ambroid kits, various structures). Some were of the more "simple" wood variety such as Silver Streak. Some were nicely done to the point they were set aside. Some were botched from the git-go and likely abandoned. And unfortunately some were incompletely built AND the rest of the materials (and instructions) were missing.
That phenomenon slowed down and it is now rare to see many such wood kit "wounded warriors." I do see unbuilt wood kits (although it can be a spotty and unrepresentative selection) and completed wood kits (lots of cabooses for some reason) at swap meets but not the partly complete ones. I am not exactly sure what conclusions can be drawn from this but I think it is fair to say that the generation most enthused about wood kits has: switched materials (a la Dr. Wayne), or can no longer meet the demands of eyesight and steady hand that wood kits involve and long ago discarded their projects mid-point and have no more to start or sell off (a la, well .... me), or that those still active with wood kits have their supply of them and are lucky enough to be in good enough shape to do justice to them and have no need to dump their abandoned kits on the swap meet marketplace (a la Howard Zane).
Another thing I notice is that the array of after-market detail parts that are available (a shrinking selection I fear) are most suited to streamlined (and hence plastic or brass) passenger cars, and the more modern (hence plastic) freight cars. There are exceptions of course - Tichy has parts suited to older freight cars. Those who like wood freight car kits used to have lots more choices for superdetailing parts, or at least it seems like that to me.
Dave Nelson
The big sellers now in the premium are the Westerfield but those are resin. I used to repair the wood kits, got a good selection of shapes and brass but as the RTR got cheaper and better, I don't do that anymore.
Despite the issues with the Walthers LPG and AA tank cars, I take special pride in building them from scratch. There's a level of challenge in building from kits. I don't regret making them.
Between the two, I much prefer RTR.
rrebell At what price point did you try to sell? Wood kits go all the time on e-bay but the price has got to be right. When I was into Central Valley kits, I bought them for around $10-15 but got outbid many times for $20 plus. Just the Central Valley fox trucks used to go for as much as $35 just 5 years ago, still go for a premium, just not as much. Now built kits of some types if well done can go for alot, been outbid many times on poultry cars (no RTR of those available in my standards).
Good question....I took 50 assorted Quality Craft hoppers, covered hoppers, and box cars.I priced them all at $8 each plus I had several well done built-ups on display. I did have one offer for a built covered hopper....$15. Note...during most of the 80's I'd sell built-ups of Ambroid and Quality Craft beginning at $75. All had sprung trucks,Kadee #5's, cut levers, air hoses and lightly weathered. I did not take the offer.
HZ
Howard Zane Actually I apologize as I had posted on this topic before. Everyone in this hobby has an activity or preference as to which he or she enjoys most. With me, it is building rolling stock and structures, and then followed by scenery. There is no facet of this hobby that is objectionable to me. Due to my age, I no longer get under the bench, but there was a time I enjoyed wiring and installing turnout motors. Wood kits.....I sold my hobby and train store in 1975, and the new owner wanted nothing to do with wood model railroad kits. During this period, kit building was mainstream as RTR offerings were rather poor. I had two 30' islands of wood kits for sale which I wound up with. I still have around 1400 of Ambroid, Quality Craft, Main Line, Olympic Casade, Central Valley, Labelle, etc. I have already built well over 1000 and I am still acquiring kits that I love building even though I probably have triplicates in my stash. Two years back I tried selling some of these kits at the Timonium show. Not only did I not sell any, no one passing my tables showed an interest. Times and interests do change.
Actually I apologize as I had posted on this topic before. Everyone in this hobby has an activity or preference as to which he or she enjoys most. With me, it is building rolling stock and structures, and then followed by scenery. There is no facet of this hobby that is objectionable to me. Due to my age, I no longer get under the bench, but there was a time I enjoyed wiring and installing turnout motors.
Wood kits.....I sold my hobby and train store in 1975, and the new owner wanted nothing to do with wood model railroad kits. During this period, kit building was mainstream as RTR offerings were rather poor. I had two 30' islands of wood kits for sale which I wound up with. I still have around 1400 of Ambroid, Quality Craft, Main Line, Olympic Casade, Central Valley, Labelle, etc. I have already built well over 1000 and I am still acquiring kits that I love building even though I probably have triplicates in my stash. Two years back I tried selling some of these kits at the Timonium show. Not only did I not sell any, no one passing my tables showed an interest.
Times and interests do change.
Me, I enjoy building models, both from kits, kitbashes, or scratch. I have one Ambroid coach running, and unbuilt kits for several more. Most of my rolling stock is blue box Athearn. I did shake the boxes to build them, but that isn't all that hard to do. The old time wood rolling stock kits are getting scarce, I find them at train shows now and again.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
I've built Gloor Craft, Ambroid, and LaBelle wood kits before and have enjoyed creating rolling stock from a box of wood parts. For me. the process of building these kits was just as rewarding as the finished cars themselves.
Russ
Modeling the early '50s Erie in Paterson, NJ. Here's the link to my railroad postcard collection: https://railroadpostcards.blogspot.com/
While I've bought a few r-t-r items (usually at train shows and at exceptionally good prices) I still prefer to build kits, but not wooden kits, whether structures or rolling stock.However, for those who enjoy working with wood, I'm sure that they find it just as enjoyable as I do working with styrene.I have used some wood on my layout, mostly as flatcar decks or lumber loads, but that was mostly to use-up stripwood left from earlier days.
We used to get loads of large dimensional lumber like this at the steel plant where I worked, and that was the inspiration for this long-ago lumber load. I probably should have tinted this with a wash before assembly, but never thought of it at the time...
...and the deck was done to use-up the stripwood, too. I don't mind it, I guess...
...but painted styrene is pretty easy, too...
...and not bad for stakes...
...or lumber loads...
Howard Zane...Everyone in this hobby has an activity or preference as to which he or she enjoys most....
I agree, Howard, and while I haven't yet settled on my favourite, I'm pretty sure that it's not building with wood.
Wayne
NHTXthe reality of not having 30 or more years to devote to scratch and kit-build those items we want makes RTR attractive.
At 71, this definitely applies to me. As much as I love the old wood kits, my under construction layout will use as much RTR as possible. The wood kits and any other kits are, for now, just for a change of pace from building the layout.
In this discussion, I saw no mention of a major factor in the shift from kit-built models to ready-to-run. Look at the number of grey and bald-not-by-choice heads you see wherever modelers congregate and, the reason is readily visible. It is the greying of the hobby.
Along with the hair issues, failing eyesight and diminished manual dexterity are facts of life as we age. Also, the reality of not having 30 or more years to devote to scratch and kit-build those items we want makes RTR attractive.
In the 1980s I jumped on the diesel detailing bandwagon just like a number or other modelers. Then, I bought my first Proto 2000 locomotives and, liked what I saw. I also noticed I was breaking more of those #79 drill bits and, the starter dimples for them were getting harder to find. Along comes Athearn's Genesis line and who needs to fight the inevitable?
I've built wood kits from Main Line and Silver Streak. I've also built plastic kits by Kurtz Kraft and Hobby Line. None could equal the realism of what I can simply remove from the box now. I believe this contributes immensely to the rise of RTR.
kurtz
All of my structures and a lot of my rolling stock is from kits. Most of these are plastic, but I've done a few wood structures and I even have a couple of cardboard buildings.
Kits let me customize so much easier.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Yep, centerbeams.
Don't get me wrong, I love to see the builds where someone puts together a craftsman type kit, be it a frieght car or a structure, but those kits are made for the modelers that do that time period, and there are tons of them out there, kits and modelers.
So model on, wood kit builders, and those that do brass, or whatever the material, please show me your work!
Mike.
My You Tube
NittanyLion flat car decks.
Russell
Doughless Do they make modern ethanol tank cars in wood kits? Era modeled might be an issue.
Do they make modern ethanol tank cars in wood kits?
Era modeled might be an issue.
I'd dare say that the largest combined segment of hobbyists are in an era where the only wood is on flat car decks.
Howard Zane Am I the only dinosaur around who still builds all rolling stock from wood kits? I love looking at current model railroad videos, and most are really quite well done....but it seems that most if not all rolling stock I see are RTR plastic as are most of locos. I can understand plastic diesels as their running qualities are excellent, and brass models are no longer mainstream. This could be an overdone thread, but a first for me. In no way would I critisize folks who operate RTR plastic as the hobby is first about having fun. For many I would guess building a wood car kit would be a waste of valuable time, which I fully understand as I cannot build a wood car kit to look as good as a current RTR plastic offering. I get tremedous pride of accomlishment from constructing everything, and there was once a time when visitors took notice. Recently not one visitor commented on my over one thousand kit built wood cars...in fact as a train of kit and scratch-built freight cars rolled by, one fellow remarked.....Athearn or Intermountain?? OH well! I now at age 80 finally realize that I have to adapt to the hobby as it certainly ain't gonnna adapt to me. And that is fine as I still am having a ball building and playing with my toy trains. Point of this?...............I have no clue!
Am I the only dinosaur around who still builds all rolling stock from wood kits? I love looking at current model railroad videos, and most are really quite well done....but it seems that most if not all rolling stock I see are RTR plastic as are most of locos. I can understand plastic diesels as their running qualities are excellent, and brass models are no longer mainstream.
This could be an overdone thread, but a first for me. In no way would I critisize folks who operate RTR plastic as the hobby is first about having fun. For many I would guess building a wood car kit would be a waste of valuable time, which I fully understand as I cannot build a wood car kit to look as good as a current RTR plastic offering. I get tremedous pride of accomlishment from constructing everything, and there was once a time when visitors took notice. Recently not one visitor commented on my over one thousand kit built wood cars...in fact as a train of kit and scratch-built freight cars rolled by, one fellow remarked.....Athearn or Intermountain?? OH well! I now at age 80 finally realize that I have to adapt to the hobby as it certainly ain't gonnna adapt to me. And that is fine as I still am having a ball building and playing with my toy trains.
Point of this?...............I have no clue!