Aww, dude! Respect! Honestly, I can't wait to see what happens!
Sincerely, Trainman05/MatthewB.
MJ 4562 The good thing is, many of his photos do still survive. Hundreds of shots that were not in Linns book were salvaged from Johns home. They have been shared with the world on .... GDlines.org .... and so much more is there as well. The collections of many of John's friends are there and they are still are adding more things even today. Well worth a look. My page on facebook (mentioned here in my signature) is also dedicated to John. He is directly responsible for my carreer and livelihood as a model builder and had influenced me since I was very young in seeking realism and excellence in craftsmanship. I am retired now and have come to the realisation that instead of building my own design (many were drawn), it would be more fun to rebuild his masterpiece. So far it is proving to be a lot of fun and a truly rewarding challenge to attempt.
John did more for this hobby than most anyone knows. He even set the standard for wheelbases on HOn3 trains so manufacturers had one size to work with and he argued for all kinds of other realistic and standardized features with all the great names of the hobby and owners of the manufacturing companies, many he knew fairly well, back in the day. His many articles on techniques and ideas spanned some thirty years or more before his tragic death. His layout was just a fun place for him to stage fantastic photographs and to enjoy realistic railroad operations with friends. His work helped make the operations we all enjoy today in clubs etc. work as well as they do. John was a smart, dedicaed, take charge, kind a guy and his influence goes beyond any other figure like him in model railroading. I know how he affected me after seeing one of the MR articles all those years ago. And I know dozens of excellent models alive today who directly name John as the single force that changed their expectations of the hobby and proved how far your skills can go if you care to indulge your imagination.
John's excellence is what drew me to this hobby when I was young and I am now giving back, in some way, this gift and using the talents John helped create to rebuild this great miniature world and change that horrid ending to such a fantastic story.
Besides, that 8 year old kid who read all those magazine articles always wanted to run a train over those high bridges. Now he's rebuilding it, so he can. I bet John is laughing about it all.
https://www.facebook.com/Great-Divide-Lines-423511918192732/?modal=admin_todo_tour
Also remember John photographed for Varney, a major player in the day so he got more exposure than any of the other greats.
Fair enough. For the record, though, I believe the fire was started by a faulty heater that was never used until that week, although I could be wrong. Your points are very good. Thanks for the insight! It must have been awful, seeing these pictures of a beautiful layout only to learn in burned down and the owner is/was dead.
Thanks, Trainman05/MatthewB.
No need to speculate, the fire was an accident that happened a week after his death.
I became a fan of the G&D reading about it in RMC and MR years after it had been destroyed, although I had no idea at the time. It was the way John photographed his layout that captured my imagination. The typical layout room overviews and construction in progress photos made it look like just another layout. But those staged photos were truly awesome. I wish more of his photos had survived.
I think the G&D was so well remembered was in large part due to the massive press coverage the layout received during the years it was active. That coverage was because John Allen was outgoing, a photographer and had lots of time to submit articles. Those three traits are less common among the average model railroader, at least at that time.
Oh, certainly. Someone famous died and, it almost seems on purpose, his most famous creation died with him. Well, it was great while it lasted, right? We have so many more people inspired by him and basing their creations off of his, we can feel like he is still around. The fire was supposedly started by some heater that was never used, right? I almost feel like, somehow, John knew he was going to die, and set the heater on. Well, we can only speculate.
Thanks, tm05/MatthewB.
Not saying john was not great, butit seems we humans have a facination with tragedy. His early death and the loss of his railroad just after, moved him even further into legend status.
One often left out of these lists is Paul Larson. Incredibly talented modeler, he was quite young when he became editor of MR.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
There's no doubt that John Allen, Linn Westcott, Jack Work and several other people whose names we could mention pushed the model railroading envelope. It's interesting tp speculate what they would do if they were young men with the resources available in 2019. Who are the 'giants' active now?
The G&D was HUGELY popular in the hobby press long before it was destroyed. For many of the reasons already mentioned. Going back to the original tiny layout, smaller than a 4x8.
There were naysayers, even then - there was an MR recollection that they got a nasty letter about too much John Allen - when MR hadn't run so much as a picture of his in months. There was, however, an article that month in RMC.
Hello All,
I have the paperback version of the book by Linn Wescott. I found it used on Amazon.
Check out this link for both paperback and hardcover: https://www.amazon.com/Model-Railroading-Allen-Hanson-Westcott/dp/0890242984/ref=sr_1_2?crid=ICXBARDZCJWT&keywords=gorre+and+daphetid&qid=1556053477&s=gateway&sprefix=Gorre+and+%2Caps%2C194&sr=8-2-spell
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
First, I am a fan of John Allen and his G&D. I have the book that Linn Westcott wrote and periodically reread it.
But the one who really got me going in model railroading the most was John Armstrong and his books/articles on designing layouts for operations. Even today some 48 years into the hobby, he's the major inspiration for me.
I think a key difference between the 2 is that John Allen never finished the mainline on his last and largest G&D layout. And he worked on it 20 years. John Armstrong never finished the scenery on his Canadaigua Southern in 50 years, but he did finish the mainline early on.
I think both of them and Linn Westcott as editor of MR were the giants of their day. Not there weren't others before and others after, but their time was when model railroading really got off the ground.
Paul
I don't know that the layout being destroyed really made that big of a difference, since most 'great' model railroads end up being torn out sooner or later - sometimes by the person who built it.
I think a lot of it was the quality of the layout plus his skill as a professional photographer. The pictures in RMC and MR of the layout were framed to not show anything not part of the layout's scenery. Before John Allen came along in the 1940's, many layout pictures were just someone standing back with a "Brownie" and taking a snapshot of as much of their layout as possible, usually from a fairly high angle and including the control panel, storage shelves, basement wall, etc.
John was a pioneer in using low angles, realistic lighting, and other 'artistic' techniques which, when coupled (no pun intended) to his top-flight engines, rolling stock, buildings, and scenery, made an indelible impression on model railroading.
I became a total and compete John Allen fan, just from the magazine articles I saw since the late 1960's. It seems to me today's audience views John and his layout is with the same fascination in seeing the photographs just like I saw. I have heard John Allen's name mentioned by so many excellent modelers of today as a major influence on them and often (like myself) the reason they got so involved in this hobby/industry. I have never heard of anyone becoming fascinated with John Allen or the Gorre and Daphetid because it burned. I'd say anything is possible but thist is pretty fanciful concept. Why pondering the least likely of possibilities, when there are so many great reasons to be inspired by the memory of the real thing and so many speak of it. Howard Zane is right here in this comments thread saying exactly this as well. Nuff for me.
rrebell Do you ever think part of the draw of the layout is the fact it was distroyed. True John and his layout were ahead of their times by a wide margin but there were others too.
Do you ever think part of the draw of the layout is the fact it was distroyed. True John and his layout were ahead of their times by a wide margin but there were others too.
You’ve got a point. We should also note that John also passed away unexpectedly. Nonetheless John was a revolutionary modeler who also had a skill with photograph (not to mention modeling!). This gave him alot of press. I suspect if one of today’s well publicizes layouts was destroyed it could gain similar fame. Still John Allen was the true pioneer of many things in our hobby and is in a league of his own. I can’t think of anyone past or present who has had more influence on the hobby and more of a legacy (Maybe Al Kalmbach near matches John’s legacy).
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
Well there might be some new fun. Check out "Great Divide Lines" on facebook sometime.
I've had the Sunday River G&D video for quite a few years, I don't think it's bad. The earliest footage (IIRC) is from his earlier (early 1950's) layout and shows trains scooting around pretty fast. The later footage of the "classic" GD (probably late 1960's era footage) shows the trains running slower. Given the limitations of film that long ago, it's really pretty good - and as noted, good or bad, it's basically all we've got.
The group has changed adresses and is easier to join and to use now. https://groups.io/g/GandD
I think this book 'John Allen's Gorre and Daphetid' is what you want if you can find it.
I almost think the best memorial locomotive is 4-6-0 #49 embedded in lead. It almost shows the locomotive "flying" off to wherever John went to after his heart attack. This probably sounds stupid, but I wonder if any of the original G&D locos could ever run again. MAybe for Model Railroader's 100th anniversary, they could try to fire up #34.
Thanks, TM05/MatthewB.
drgwcs There was some more that survived than just the engine that currently resides at Kalambach #34. (although the things were heavily damaged) Here is a link to the article. http://gdlines.org/GDLines/The_Satchel2.html At one point there was a couple of articles in the NGSL Gazette with a little bit that survived that was narrow gauge. Jim
There was some more that survived than just the engine that currently resides at Kalambach #34. (although the things were heavily damaged) Here is a link to the article.
http://gdlines.org/GDLines/The_Satchel2.html
At one point there was a couple of articles in the NGSL Gazette with a little bit that survived that was narrow gauge.
Jim
I was gradually changing from "running my trains" to "building a scale model railroad" with American Flyer S gauge trains, but he never slighted my tinplate stuff, even giving me subscriptions to Kalmbach's Model Trains magazine until it disolved. But he bought Model Railroader religiously and picked up interesting copies of Railroad Model Craftsman on occasion. Of course, I devoured his copies whenever I visited him and his family in Vets' Housing, and both of us avidly pored over John Allen's photos and articles--even the photos in the Varney ads--whenever they appeared. (As an aside: we thought the name of his railroad was the "Gory and Daffittid" at the time. I believe John regretted and grew tired of the whimsical name soon after he started "railroadin'"--after it was too late to change it.) Looking through that slide show really took me back to those happy times. Thanks again.
Deano
RR_MelHave you looked at the G&D web page.
Wow Mel, that is one great site! One could spend a lot of time there. That "TrainPlayer" looks interesting.
Mike.
My You Tube
I thought it was really neat seeing those pictures- Even though they are greatly damaged it is amazing that there was that much left after the fire. You would think all the solder joints would fall apart. The article in the Gazette showed some charred remains out of the DG&H combine. I don't remember the issue but it may have been Jan or Mar 2006. I had the John Allen book- it was damaged beyond use along with some other books when we had some water get in our storage unit. Jim
Oh God... Like seeing ghosts. Wow. Thanks a lot. Most of those trains probably won't run ever again, but just seeing them and knowing they exist... Wow.
Thanks a lot, TM05/MatthewB.
Even if the video does look awful, what else do we have? Other than John's amazing photography, there is no known footage of the G&D left. 30 mins of film of this amazing layout, albeit crappy film, is better than nothing, I think. Also, does anyone have any clue about G&D #35 or #43 surviving? As I stated earlier, I have heard that these are both still around.
TM05/MatthewB.
NVSRRThere is a half hour video of the layout that survives. Sunday River is the producers I do believe.
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I would actually suggest NOT watching that video.
Much of the magic of the GORRE & DAPHETID comes from John Allen's photography work.
The layout really looks terrible in that video. I was sorry I ever looked at it.
I wish there was a real professional film of the G&D out there somewhere. Or... maybe... someone could use CGI and enhance the Sunday River video up to Star Wars standards. Maybe a job for a Pixar intern.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
NVSRR As for info, George Selios might be willing to talk with you. Allen is his idol and where the F&SM is based on.
Hey Allen was my model railroad idol also. He completely messed up my first marriage as during our honeymoon in 1962, I purchased an RMC featuring his layout. All I wanted to do was read and read again this incredible article, and instead of going to beach with new wife, all I could do was dream about and rough sketch my dream pike.....which became a reality decades and several wives later. (I have never claimed that my groundhog was fully baked)
HZ